Join up at Bet Easy - Click here - Bet Easy is Thoroughbred Village’s premier betting partner - Join here now
Forum Home Forum Home > Horse Racing - Public Forums > Racing Forum
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Timeform - Battaash is as good as Vain
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login


Click here for the Thoroughbred Village Home Page. For village news, follow @TBVillage on Twitter. For horseracing tips, follow @Villagebet on Twitter. To contact the Mayor by email: Click Here.

Timeform - Battaash is as good as Vain

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 2345>
Author
Message
maccamax View Drop Down
Champion
Champion


Joined: 18 Jun 2010
Status: Offline
Points: 25986
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote maccamax Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jul 2018 at 2:24pm
Tlaz..:-    I bet mainly with Betfair.   I have a couple of accounts with Corporates, which I took advantage of their bonus bets and soon worked out the unders your forced to take with them , has them giving little away.
Sportsbet made me put my bonus on sports betting which seemed strange.
I did win from both.
    Recent times I've been very selective and lay quite a few.    I do increase stakes following a losing lay and usually recoup in short time.
Danger in chasing losses , especially in laying, SO a golden rule is NEVER Lay anything to lose more than 5% of your bank.
When I followed good advice in the Oz / Peru soccer match , I intended to trade out earlier but the market turned against me and i sat for a period . LUCK went my way and I greened up...    These breaks go both ways over time.
The E/E advice is always worth looking at , as is that of others on TBV.
I've had a good look at ...R4----- 5 Laussel in a few minutes .   a good judge has fancied him on here .      
Back to Top
Sponsored Links
Click here to view the promotions at Bet Easy.


Back to Top
maccamax View Drop Down
Champion
Champion


Joined: 18 Jun 2010
Status: Offline
Points: 25986
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote maccamax Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jul 2018 at 2:39pm
I REST MY CASE ...        Sneck
Back to Top
3blindmice View Drop Down
Champion
Champion


Joined: 22 Oct 2012
Status: Offline
Points: 17948
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 3blindmice Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jul 2018 at 2:51pm
Unkowing Marionette? As my maths teacher often wrote: QED
Back to Top
TJMitchell View Drop Down
Champion
Champion
Avatar

Joined: 29 Jun 2014
Location: Melbourne
Status: Offline
Points: 1103
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TJMitchell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jul 2018 at 4:05pm
Originally posted by TJMitchell TJMitchell wrote:

Close this garbage thread already. You could read the recent posts and have no idea what the title would be.

Maybe at least change the thread title to "Bitch-fest" or something more relevant Ermm
Back to Top
ExceedAndExcel View Drop Down
Champion
Champion


Joined: 20 Dec 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 10451
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ExceedAndExcel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jul 2018 at 4:22pm
Originally posted by 3blindmice 3blindmice wrote:

Unkowing Marionette? As my maths teacher often wrote: QED



Ahhh no. I knew exactly what you meant but like the school boy who tries to say he was only looking for a rise after being mercifully mocked for his stupidity you are simply clutching at straws. Nice try though. Better than your maths efforts anyway.
Back to Top
Sneck View Drop Down
Champion
Champion
Avatar

Joined: 16 Feb 2013
Location: Payout Queue
Status: Offline
Points: 7370
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sneck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jul 2018 at 4:37pm
Originally posted by 3blindmice 3blindmice wrote:

Originally posted by Sneck Sneck wrote:

Originally posted by 3blindmice 3blindmice wrote:

Yes I alluded to the psychology, which is far more complex than that. Most horse punters bet for interest rather than a need for profit and obviously don't use all the tools available. If that was the basis for your original comment then in some cases I might agree. That larger sum might not only focus them but it might also put a handful on the path of realising the vaue of "doing the form" and what they are really risking over the longer term.
Your major point of contention appears to stem from the lack of a path towards professional wagering which you appear to see as a prerequisite. What you are really complaining about is the use of best without it meeting your prerequisite. I'm not sure this is coherent with your past statements but we're talking about best in terms of expectation.

I'm sure that attempt at English is as good as you're capable of but let me simplify for you to put you out of your pain. Tlaz raised the one bet strategy, you claimed it would be a good one for your so called mug punters, I called your claim rubbish and asked for the maths. In fact there is no maths available because there is no single definable entity as a "mug punter" and there are far too many variables  for any valid conclusion 
Blatant lie. Most of the defense put forward was math.

So as a losing gambler when I said mug punter you assumed I was talking about you and were salty because it didn't take you where you want to go. Seems like my take was spot on.
Back to Top
maccamax View Drop Down
Champion
Champion


Joined: 18 Jun 2010
Status: Offline
Points: 25986
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote maccamax Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jul 2018 at 5:00pm
Originally posted by TJMitchell TJMitchell wrote:

Originally posted by TJMitchell TJMitchell wrote:

Close this garbage thread already. You could read the recent posts and have no idea what the title would be.


Maybe at least change the thread title to "Bitch-fest" or something more relevant Ermm


Ratings and associated means of having a chance when gambling has been the main points .      The " bitching " ( which your 2 posts have been )are best ignored, along with a few other pointless barbs.
There is merit in others views and input.     let the beneficial opinions flow.    If we don't agree, we move on.
I backed a good winner today, in a race I may not have even looked at had it not been drawn to my attention on here.
Back to Top
3blindmice View Drop Down
Champion
Champion


Joined: 22 Oct 2012
Status: Offline
Points: 17948
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 3blindmice Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jul 2018 at 6:41pm
Originally posted by Sneck Sneck wrote:

Originally posted by 3blindmice 3blindmice wrote:

Originally posted by Sneck Sneck wrote:

Originally posted by 3blindmice 3blindmice wrote:

Yes I alluded to the psychology, which is far more complex than that. Most horse punters bet for interest rather than a need for profit and obviously don't use all the tools available. If that was the basis for your original comment then in some cases I might agree. That larger sum might not only focus them but it might also put a handful on the path of realising the vaue of "doing the form" and what they are really risking over the longer term.
Your major point of contention appears to stem from the lack of a path towards professional wagering which you appear to see as a prerequisite. What you are really complaining about is the use of best without it meeting your prerequisite. I'm not sure this is coherent with your past statements but we're talking about best in terms of expectation.

I'm sure that attempt at English is as good as you're capable of but let me simplify for you to put you out of your pain. Tlaz raised the one bet strategy, you claimed it would be a good one for your so called mug punters, I called your claim rubbish and asked for the maths. In fact there is no maths available because there is no single definable entity as a "mug punter" and there are far too many variables  for any valid conclusion 
Blatant lie. Most of the defense put forward was math.

So as a losing gambler when I said mug punter you assumed I was talking about you and were salty because it didn't take you where you want to go. Seems like my take was spot on.
You seem to get many things confused so let me set you straight on yet another point. I didn't assume anything of the sort. Admittedly when I see your posts on particular topics I do take certain things into account but on this relatively simple point that wasn't required. 

Unless maths includes speculative waffle your so-called 'math' was nothing of the sort. Even the logic behind your original claim was at best tenuous, although you might have been expressing some concern for your poor mug punter as I suggested above.
Back to Top
3blindmice View Drop Down
Champion
Champion


Joined: 22 Oct 2012
Status: Offline
Points: 17948
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 3blindmice Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jul 2018 at 6:49pm
Originally posted by ExceedAndExcel ExceedAndExcel wrote:

Originally posted by 3blindmice 3blindmice wrote:

Unkowing Marionette? As my maths teacher often wrote: QED



Ahhh no. I knew exactly what you meant but like the school boy who tries to say he was only looking for a rise after being mercifully mocked for his stupidity you are simply clutching at straws. Nice try though. Better than your maths efforts anyway.

At the risk of repeating something you've no doubt heard many times, Pavlov's dogs had nothing on you Pal.
Back to Top
3blindmice View Drop Down
Champion
Champion


Joined: 22 Oct 2012
Status: Offline
Points: 17948
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 3blindmice Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jul 2018 at 6:51pm
Originally posted by TJMitchell TJMitchell wrote:

Originally posted by TJMitchell TJMitchell wrote:

Close this garbage thread already. You could read the recent posts and have no idea what the title would be.

Maybe at least change the thread title to "Bitch-fest" or something more relevant Ermm

Too true TJM. A bit of indulgence. 
Back to Top
djebel View Drop Down
Champion
Champion
Avatar

Joined: 07 Mar 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 36760
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jul 2018 at 6:10pm


STRIKE WHILST THE IRON IS HOT

reductio ad absurdum

The richest man is not he who has the most, but he who needs the least.

Back to Top
djebel View Drop Down
Champion
Champion
Avatar

Joined: 07 Mar 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 36760
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jul 2018 at 6:12pm
4 Manikato

Manihi - Markato
Bon Hoysted, Bob Hoysted

One of Australia's greatest sprinter-milers, Manikato won the Golden Slipper Stakes in 1978 and was Horse of the Year in 1978-79. During that three-year-old season the gelding scored victories in the Caulfield Guineas and Doomben 10,000, and the first of his multiple wins in the William Reid, CF Orr, Futurity and George Ryder Stakes. Manikato won the 6f William Reid Stakes five consecutive times (1979-83) at Moonee Valley, Melbourne, where he now has a Group 1 race named after him. Bob Hoysted, who trained him for most of his career, said: “He was a wonderful horse and a great friend.”

3 Black Caviar
Bel Esprit - Helsinge
Peter Moody

The Australian wondermare won all 25 career starts, including 15 Group 1s, but only one came after flying halfway around the world in a snazzy bodysuit to take on the best Europe could pit against her on a wholly unfamiliar, rain-eased track at a venue likely to test the temperament of the doughtiest of creatures. Black Caviar was sent off the 1-6 favourite for the 2012 edition of the Diamond Jubilee and was cruising to victory when Luke Nolen eased up and she was nearly caught on the line. It was a heart-stopping moment, a glimpse of fallibility – albeit mostly human – that if anything endeared her all the more to a crowd enthralled by the appearance on these shores of such a great champion.

n British eyes this victory, and her subsequent crowning as European champion sprinter, was a defining moment for Black Caviar, yet to the whole of Australia it was simply the cherry on the top of a great career that had already yielded 11 Grade 1 successes on home soil and was far from over once her round-the-world jaunt was done. She returned to Australia to become the first horse to win a third Lightning Stakes, a race now named after her, followed by the William Reid and, on her final start, the T J Smith, which took her past Kingston Town’s Australian record of 14 top-level wins.

She was, by the time she was retired at the end of her six-year-old season, regarded in some quarters as the best horse in the world. She was a four-time world champion sprinter, three-time Australian champion sprinter and three-time Australian Horse of the Year, who frankly had nothing left to prove as she went off to the paddocks. In fact, she was very nearly the best of them all.

2 Abernant
Owen Tudor - Rustom Mahal
Noel Murless

Arguably the best sprinter ever based on these shores – a dispute involving him and the great Dayjur, the outcome of which is usually dependent on the age of the warring parties – the flying dark grey Abernant won 14 times from 17 starts and, once the notion of a career as a miler was ended by defeat in the 2,000 Guineas, he carried all before him. He was pre-eminent as a two-year-old in 1948, winning his five remaining starts – including the Chesham, the National, the Champagne and the Middle Park – after an unsuccessful debut.

Then, after his short head defeat in the Guineas, he reigned over the sprinting division for the next two years, in the hands of the peerless Gordon Richards. The son of Owen Tudor – winner of the ‘New Derby’ at Newmarket in 1941 – developed a huge following as he carried all before him, again going through the rest of his season unbeaten, claiming the King’s Stand, July Cup, King George and Nunthorpe, the last-named developing into a five length rout after he took up the running at the furlong pole.

The following season he proved unable to give 23lb to the three-year-old Tangle in the King’s Stand but gave Richards his 4,000th winner when taking the Lubbock Stakes at Sandown and defended his July Cup, King George and Nunthorpe titles before being granted an honourable retirement while still at the top of his game. Noel Murless summed it up perfectly as the great horse, lighter in colour by this stage and very much a national hero, left the arena: “There is nothing left for him to win.”

1 Dayjur
Danzig - Gold Beauty
Dick Hern

The European sprint division has never been as dominated as in 1990, when Dayjur ruled supreme. By the end of his career, he was rated by far the best sprinter of the era and undoubtedly one of the best of all time, but it wasn’t always plain sailing for the $1.65m yearling son of Danzig, out of the US champion sprinter Gold Beauty. Defeat in the second of his pair of two-year-old races prompted a hobday operation, and two further reverses in his first three races as a three-year-old – including in the Free Handicap over seven furlongs – hardly hinted at greatness, but once his true metier was discovered, as an out-and-out speedball who could roll along in front at a velocity few others could begin to live with, he took the world by storm.

Successes in the Temple Stakes and King’s Stand proved to be just a warm-up as he launched into the meat of the campaign and a Group 1 spree in which he landed the Nunthorpe by four lengths in record time, the Haydock Sprint Cup by a length and a half from Royal Academy, and the Prix de l’Abbaye in a stroll despite seeming to hurdle a shadow in the final yards. All that was as nothing, however, compared to the drama of his final run, a bold bid for the Breeders’ Cup Sprint at Belmont, which looked for all the world like a glorious triumph until that jaw-dropping moment in the dying strides when, with echoes of Paris no doubt ringing in the ears of Willie Carson, he jumped the shadow of the grandstand – not once but twice – and turned victory into defeat.

He was beaten a neck by the mare Safely Kept that October day but in the process turned sprinting greatness into a sporting legend by which he will always be remembered.



STRIKE WHILST THE IRON IS HOT

reductio ad absurdum

The richest man is not he who has the most, but he who needs the least.

Back to Top
Shrunk in the Wash View Drop Down
Champion
Champion


Joined: 25 Mar 2016
Status: Offline
Points: 2663
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shrunk in the Wash Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jul 2018 at 6:33pm
Love the Man
Back to Top
Majestic View Drop Down
Champion
Champion
Avatar

Joined: 23 Mar 2013
Location: NSW
Status: Offline
Points: 749
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Majestic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jul 2018 at 10:25am
Just a slight aside, Abernant was credited with beating Star King ( read renamed Star Kingdom when he came to Aust for stud) in a major 2yo race. Apparently many on course were surprised by judge's verdict, saying SK had actually beaten Abernant. This was pre photo finish.
Back to Top
djebel View Drop Down
Champion
Champion
Avatar

Joined: 07 Mar 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 36760
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jul 2018 at 2:32pm
As a two-year-old, M.F. Dupre's TEXANA won the inaugural 1957 Prix de l'Abbaye de Longchamp (her 11th win that season). She was rated 136 by Timeform, making her the joint-second top rated filly in the publications history (alongside Allez France, Habibti & Black Caviar).

@Chris



STRIKE WHILST THE IRON IS HOT

reductio ad absurdum

The richest man is not he who has the most, but he who needs the least.

Back to Top
Carioca View Drop Down
Champion
Champion


Joined: 13 Nov 2015
Status: Offline
Points: 7208
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carioca Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jul 2018 at 4:57pm
Originally posted by Majestic Majestic wrote:

Just a slight aside, Abernant was credited with beating Star King ( read renamed Star Kingdom when he came to Aust for stud) in a major 2yo race. Apparently many on course were surprised by judge's verdict, saying SK had actually beaten Abernant. This was pre photo finish.

Yes I read it was a controversial finish Majestic, short head by 5lengths, interesting to note at the end of the 2 yo season Free Handicap ratings Abernant 9st 7lb, Star King 9st 5lb , 60kg 59kg, Star King overall stats, 16sts, 9wins, 2nds, 1 trd.
Back to Top
djebel View Drop Down
Champion
Champion
Avatar

Joined: 07 Mar 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 36760
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Aug 2018 at 12:49am
Be interesting to see what number they put on todays effort ?


STRIKE WHILST THE IRON IS HOT

reductio ad absurdum

The richest man is not he who has the most, but he who needs the least.

Back to Top
Speediskey View Drop Down
Champion
Champion
Avatar

Joined: 18 Feb 2014
Status: Offline
Points: 3666
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Speediskey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Aug 2018 at 1:00am
Surely not very high? Once again the form on the horse that ran 2nd is extremely exposed.. and it's a solid G3 level sprinter in Europe, has run in 10 Group 1's over 5 furlongs and run one placing before today. 

The sheer lunacy of their ratings is unbelievable. Somehow this horse is a 136, yet Trapeze Artist is a 126 (same as Merchant Navy, give me a break). Trapeze Artist's TJ Smith win is so unbelievably under rated in comparison to Battaash it's actually comical.

Battaash wouldn't see which way our sprinters went, let alone 5kg better than them.
Back to Top
Speediskey View Drop Down
Champion
Champion
Avatar

Joined: 18 Feb 2014
Status: Offline
Points: 3666
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Speediskey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Aug 2018 at 1:01am
Actually nevermind, didn't see he won by 3 lengths. Timeform will give this a 155.
Back to Top
correctweight View Drop Down
Champion
Champion
Avatar

Joined: 20 May 2010
Location: Melbourne
Status: Offline
Points: 2452
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote correctweight Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Aug 2018 at 10:35am
Originally posted by Speediskey Speediskey wrote:

Actually nevermind, didn't see he won by 3 lengths. Timeform will give this a 155.

Only 155..
Back to Top
scamanda View Drop Down
Champion
Champion
Avatar

Joined: 11 Oct 2008
Location: The Manor
Status: Offline
Points: 15731
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote scamanda Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Aug 2018 at 2:42pm
I think the ATC should invite the connection to bring Battaash out to represent them in the Everest.

1. It would put to rest once and for all if Battaash is as good as the ratings say.
2. It will show just how limited he is, at 6 furlongs.
3. They'd crap in their boots.

A 5 furlong squib shouldn't ever be compared to the likes of Vain.
I started with nothing and still have most of it left
Back to Top
Speediskey View Drop Down
Champion
Champion
Avatar

Joined: 18 Feb 2014
Status: Offline
Points: 3666
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Speediskey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Aug 2018 at 9:31pm
I'm the biggest knocker of the horse, but it wouldn't put the ratings question to bed because theres no way he runs 1200 properly.
Back to Top
djebel View Drop Down
Champion
Champion
Avatar

Joined: 07 Mar 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 36760
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Aug 2018 at 3:46pm


STRIKE WHILST THE IRON IS HOT

reductio ad absurdum

The richest man is not he who has the most, but he who needs the least.

Back to Top
djebel View Drop Down
Champion
Champion
Avatar

Joined: 07 Mar 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 36760
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Aug 2018 at 2:25pm


STRIKE WHILST THE IRON IS HOT

reductio ad absurdum

The richest man is not he who has the most, but he who needs the least.

Back to Top
Tontonan View Drop Down
Champion
Champion
Avatar

Joined: 13 Oct 2007
Location: Ferntree Gully
Status: Offline
Points: 2658
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Tontonan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Aug 2018 at 1:40am


Timeform analyst contemplating the outcome of the Nunthorpe Stakes.
Back to Top
correctweight View Drop Down
Champion
Champion
Avatar

Joined: 20 May 2010
Location: Melbourne
Status: Offline
Points: 2452
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote correctweight Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Aug 2018 at 7:52am
Hahahahaha. Nice tont.

This just proves they have no clue especially when it comes to sprinters and it is a major disrespect to the grest vain.
Back to Top
Red Rancher View Drop Down
Champion
Champion
Avatar

Joined: 28 Oct 2009
Location: Sydney
Status: Offline
Points: 319
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Red Rancher Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Aug 2018 at 9:30am
Some English commentator last night pre-race said he thought Baattash was the world's best horse. What a complete joke that was.
Back to Top
djebel View Drop Down
Champion
Champion
Avatar

Joined: 07 Mar 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 36760
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Aug 2018 at 9:44am
Originally posted by Red Rancher Red Rancher wrote:

Some English commentator last night pre-race said he thought Baattash was the world's best horse. What a complete joke that was.


Chapman, he is a biiger goose than Victoria's Ric McIntosh.


STRIKE WHILST THE IRON IS HOT

reductio ad absurdum

The richest man is not he who has the most, but he who needs the least.

Back to Top
3blindmice View Drop Down
Champion
Champion


Joined: 22 Oct 2012
Status: Offline
Points: 17948
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 3blindmice Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Aug 2018 at 10:07am
Presumably the same bloke who has made the same comment twice previously? 

This rating needs to be wiped from the records and written apologies submitted. It's an embarrassment for TF and international ratings but worse it's a slight on ACTUAL top notch sprinters.



Back to Top
djebel View Drop Down
Champion
Champion
Avatar

Joined: 07 Mar 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 36760
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Aug 2018 at 11:20am


STRIKE WHILST THE IRON IS HOT

reductio ad absurdum

The richest man is not he who has the most, but he who needs the least.

Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 2345>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 11.10
Copyright ©2001-2017 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.078 seconds.