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Timeform - Battaash is as good as Vain

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3blindmice View Drop Down
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    Posted: 30 Jun 2018 at 12:53am
Timeform ratings have been the subject of much debate and deserved derision on TBV in the past but the latest ratings must surely be the nail in their coffin as far as credibility goes. 

As noted by Speediskey in the Merchant Navy (ret) thread they have determined that a limited 1000m English sprinter (Battaash 6w4p-12) is in their eyes the equal of some of our very best male sprinters, and only fractionally behind both Winx and Black Caviar after the girls' allowance. 

Yes this winner of a single French Group 1 is supposedly as good as Vain, Manikato and Todman and only 3lb/1lb inferor to Black Caviar/Winx respectively. Fortunately the UK monkey spanking hasn't yet extended to Bernborough (138), but give them time. 


2018 Timeform Ratings (historical ratings in italics)

Bataash 136
Black Caviar*, Vain, Manikato, Todman  136
Winx* 134
Harry Angel 132
Blue Point 126

* mares receive 3lbs under the Timeform regime according to the link below


This article was written before Blue Point easily defeated Battaash over his fav distance in the King's Stand (lol)

Tip? if Timeform is even in the ballpark (they weren't as far as BP goes in the King's Stand obviously) that would mean Blue Point should be winning the Newmarket G1 Juy Cup comfortably, currently $5 fav.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 3blindmice Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jun 2018 at 12:55am
Sorry for the misspelling's of Battaash, it's late.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jun 2018 at 1:12am
What really needs to be asked is, how do they come with a rating for Vain, it goes against everything they preach ?


STRIKE WHILST THE IRON IS HOT

reductio ad absurdum

The richest man is not he who has the most, but he who needs the least.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 3blindmice Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jun 2018 at 1:16am
?

TF Au has always undervalued our horses imo, as much as TF UK overrates theirs perhaps? They've had historical ratings for years.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jun 2018 at 1:23am
Historical ratings are a load of bullgelatie.

Timeform UK have been going continuously since about 1947. They do not pretend to rate anything prior to that.



STRIKE WHILST THE IRON IS HOT

reductio ad absurdum

The richest man is not he who has the most, but he who needs the least.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vain Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jun 2018 at 7:41am
Sacrilege.
Keep them honest
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carioca Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jun 2018 at 10:02am
Originally posted by djebel djebel wrote:

What really needs to be asked is, how do they come with a rating for Vain, it goes against everything they preach ?

You may like to refer to Vains win in the George Adams mile at Flemington, when having his third run in a week ( all unbeaten) carrying 10 pounds over WFA, your bias towards English performances can be overbearing at times and I doubt you know much of our past champions performances.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ThreeBears Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jun 2018 at 10:26am
Official rating is 123. That still looks 5lbs heavy to me. He was upped 7lbs for winning a Gr2 last year. That's where the garbage set in.
Timeform boys have obviously been enjoying a long lunch with lots of coke while sniffing each others farts again.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jun 2018 at 10:43am
Originally posted by Carioca Carioca wrote:

Originally posted by djebel djebel wrote:

What really needs to be asked is, how do they come with a rating for Vain, it goes against everything they preach ?

You may like to refer to Vains win in the George Adams mile at Flemington, when having his third run in a week ( all unbeaten) carrying 10 pounds over WFA, your bias towards English performances can be overbearing at times and I doubt you know much of our past champions performances.



I have Vain and Black Caviar so far superior to Battaash it is not funny. I have never had Battaash even as the best in UK, It was the only thing I got right at Ascot last week.

Vain was never rated by Timeform. The ratings posted by Timeform Australia go agianst everything they tell us as to how they come to a figure.

Their numbers for Vain and Tulloch can not have been correlated in the same manner that Nature Strip earned his rating.

Now you might want to discuss Nature Strips rating if you can find it for winning an off season benchmark race.



STRIKE WHILST THE IRON IS HOT

reductio ad absurdum

The richest man is not he who has the most, but he who needs the least.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tlazolteotl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jun 2018 at 10:57am
Easy money for the super poms in the Everest then.Tongue
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carioca Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jun 2018 at 11:02am
ATM nature strip doesn't rate with me djebel, he's promising but underexposed imo.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jun 2018 at 11:04am
Harry Angel 26 and Blue Point 51 would be value if you knew they were coming.


STRIKE WHILST THE IRON IS HOT

reductio ad absurdum

The richest man is not he who has the most, but he who needs the least.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jun 2018 at 11:05am
Originally posted by Carioca Carioca wrote:

ATM nature strip doesn't rate with me djebel, he's promising but underexposed imo.


He's had 8 starts, he's fully exposed.



STRIKE WHILST THE IRON IS HOT

reductio ad absurdum

The richest man is not he who has the most, but he who needs the least.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tlazolteotl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jun 2018 at 11:10am
Originally posted by djebel djebel wrote:

Harry Angel 26 and Blue Point 51 would be value if you knew they were coming.


While I don't rate them that highly I do think the Everest is wide open to foreign incursion in 2018 as the locals are not great at the Everest distance. With one possible exception- TA- I can never get a handle on him.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carioca Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jun 2018 at 11:10am
Originally posted by djebel djebel wrote:

Originally posted by Carioca Carioca wrote:

ATM nature strip doesn't rate with me djebel, he's promising but underexposed imo.


He's had 8 starts, he's fully exposed.


Against what? anything of note.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jun 2018 at 11:22am
That is not what Timeform ratings are about.

Now we are getting somewhere.



STRIKE WHILST THE IRON IS HOT

reductio ad absurdum

The richest man is not he who has the most, but he who needs the least.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote maccamax Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jun 2018 at 11:48am
Originally posted by Carioca Carioca wrote:

Originally posted by djebel djebel wrote:

Originally posted by Carioca Carioca wrote:

ATM nature strip doesn't rate with me djebel, he's promising but underexposed imo.


He's had 8 starts, he's fully exposed.


Against what? anything of note.


By my Ratings =

On 1st August ...    Trapeze Artist starts his 4Y/o Rating On 29K
                     Nature Strip start his on               21K
                     Kementari starts his on                  27.5
                     Winx most recent rating                   30
                     Happy Clapper most recent                 28
       
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote scamanda Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jun 2018 at 11:55am
The Oxford Dictionary has just updated the meaning of Bullsh!t.

It now reads 'see Timeform rating for Battaash'.
I started with nothing and still have most of it left
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sneck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jun 2018 at 12:04pm
You can use timeform for power rankings of historical performances in major European races.
For anything else they're basically worthless.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carioca Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jun 2018 at 12:05pm
Nice to see things from both eyes.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 3blindmice Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jun 2018 at 12:19pm
Originally posted by scamanda scamanda wrote:

The Oxford Dictionary has just updated the meaning of Bullsh!t.

It now reads 'see Timeform rating for Battaash'.

Lol Scamanda, Ithink you're being kind. I did have a very different title for the thread but thought I'd tone it down. I have no doubt they continually underrate our horses comparatively but even the dullest wit at Timeform UK should have seen how ridiculous the Battaash rating was in comparison to Winx for example.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote maccamax Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jun 2018 at 12:30pm
   In 2 races this season 2 horses have rated above Winx by way of the 2k allowance . ( Cliff Carey's) 1950's method)      Humidor & Happy Clapper .
Both Won their next suitable Race start.
       
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tlazolteotl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jun 2018 at 12:44pm
Originally posted by maccamax maccamax wrote:

   In 2 races this season 2 horses have rated above Winx by way of the 2k allowance . ( Cliff Carey's) 1950's method)      Humidor & Happy Clapper .
Both Won their next suitable Race start.


I don't know what you mean by suitable race for Humidor. CC, CP, MC not suitable?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote maccamax Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jun 2018 at 1:03pm
Originally posted by Tlazolteotl Tlazolteotl wrote:

Originally posted by maccamax maccamax wrote:

   In 2 races this season 2 horses have rated above Winx by way of the 2k allowance . ( Cliff Carey's) 1950's method)      Humidor & Happy Clapper .
Both Won their next suitable Race start.


I don't know what you mean by suitable race for Humidor. CC, CP, MC not suitable?


He didn't get a suitable race until he did his usual , erratic run to beat a few slow ones , early in his next prep.   ( I loaded up ) .
Happy Clapper won the Doncaster at his very next start.

I've always expected Humidor to knock off a top field at 100/1 , The Bastaxd has the ability but one bad horse.
       
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jun 2018 at 1:05pm
Originally posted by maccamax maccamax wrote:

   In 2 races this season 2 horses have rated above Winx by way of the 2k allowance . ( Cliff Carey's) 1950's method)      Humidor & Happy Clapper .
Both Won their next suitable Race start.

Are these good arguments for Winx ?

What you are saying is, She has not been the best horse in those wins ?




STRIKE WHILST THE IRON IS HOT

reductio ad absurdum

The richest man is not he who has the most, but he who needs the least.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shawy38 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jun 2018 at 1:10pm
Timeform is only good for toilet paper
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ThreeBears Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jun 2018 at 1:12pm
He's had 8 starts, he's fully exposed
Put that next to Scamanda's Battaash definition.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jun 2018 at 1:19pm
Originally posted by ThreeBears ThreeBears wrote:

He's had 8 starts, he's fully exposed
Put that next to Scamanda's Battaash definition.

Of course he is Australian trained, He will still be unexposed after 28 starts.




STRIKE WHILST THE IRON IS HOT

reductio ad absurdum

The richest man is not he who has the most, but he who needs the least.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jun 2018 at 1:21pm
Originally posted by Shawy38 Shawy38 wrote:

Timeform is only good for toilet paper

Do not know if you have ever purchased any of their books but I can tell you it is not printed on good toilet paper.


STRIKE WHILST THE IRON IS HOT

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The richest man is not he who has the most, but he who needs the least.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote maccamax Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jun 2018 at 1:22pm
Originally posted by djebel djebel wrote:

Originally posted by maccamax maccamax wrote:

   In 2 races this season 2 horses have rated above Winx by way of the 2k allowance . ( Cliff Carey's) 1950's method)      Humidor & Happy Clapper .
Both Won their next suitable Race start.


Are these good arguments for Winx ?

What you are saying is, She has not been the best horse in those wins ?




No middle distance horse has ever put 25 wins together. Not easy.
Winx has been exposed to the unsuitable lead up sprints and overcome several vulnerable situations with sensational sectionals.
Her 4 wide run all the way in the last Cox Plate , took a Course Record to hold Humidor off.
Of course i'm not knocking the best we have seen .     I'm more pointing out there is very few Kilo's between Very good Horses.
I will probably start laying her in the next Cox Plate , at the stupid prices. ( to Trade of Course )
I'm expecting Kementari to come back a real force to be reckoned with in the Spring too.
       
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