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Superannuation Investment Returns

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Dr E View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dr E Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Nov 2017 at 2:21am
Originally posted by Whale Whale wrote:

Originally posted by Whale Whale wrote:

I know you are very intelligent but you can't do basic maths
Property
2006  $373,000 +$50,000 holding costs = $423,000
2017  $880,000 +$198,000 rental returns (generous averaging $18000 a year and assuming rented 100% )  = $1,078,000
Profit 155 %

Shares
2006 $50,000
2017  $420,000


Profit 740%

and it is not about what is better it is about diversification



ummm, the property was funded by debt ... investment was $50k up front in each case ... think about it ... if based on your assumptions, one results in $655k profit, and the other $370k profit, I'm happy to take the one that you've rejected ... guess the math is not so basic.Wink

There is too little data to determine which investment would be better - issues of other income, CGT, NG, actual yields and interest rates, cost like repairs and maintenance and vacancy rates for the property, dividends, imputation, etc, etc.

Probably similar outcomes in the end, but generally property would prevail over a long term, simply due to the ability to leverage, and also, since as soon as you have equity and sufficient cashflow, you obviously add to the portfolio ... 

I'm not purporting that one or the other is a "better" investment, but one is passive, and one is a full time job ... the key with both is being in for the long term.
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Whale View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Whale Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Nov 2017 at 10:04am
Shares can be funded by debt as well, and if the debt was as much as the debt of the house the proportional closing balance would nearly $3 million.

Property is not all smooth sailing, the example you give is of a scenario in which there are no problems, no bad tenants who ruin the property, no expensive repairs, no extended period of unrented property, agents fees are about 6% and 1 month rent for each new tenant.

I doubt that the share investment method is a full time occupation, charts can be studied st night, shares bought the next day if suitable and an automatic stop put in place, at most 2 hours a day in my opinion.

Anyway as you say it is not about what is better it is about diversification and if someone wants a share portfolio this seems a low risk, profitable way to do it
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rosscoe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Nov 2017 at 11:14am
Originally posted by Dr E Dr E wrote:

Originally posted by Whale Whale wrote:

Originally posted by Whale Whale wrote:

I know you are very intelligent but you can't do basic maths
Property
2006  $373,000 +$50,000 holding costs = $423,000
2017  $880,000 +$198,000 rental returns (generous averaging $18000 a year and assuming rented 100% )  = $1,078,000
[COLOR=#FF0000]Profit 155 %

Shares
[COLOR=#FF0000]2006 $50,000
2017  $420,000
[COLOR=#FF0000][COLOR=#000000]

Profit 740%

[COLOR=#FF0000][COLOR=#000000][COLOR=#FF0000]and it is not about what is better it is about diversification
[COLOR=#FF0000][COLOR=#000000][COLOR=#FF0000][/COLOR]





ummm, the property was funded by debt ... investment was $50k up front in each case ... think about it ... if based on your assumptions, one results in $655k profit, and the other $370k profit, I'm happy to take the one that you've rejected ... guess the math is not so basic.Wink

There is too little data to determine which investment would be better - issues of other income, CGT, NG, actual yields and interest rates, cost like repairs and maintenance and vacancy rates for the property, dividends, imputation, etc, etc.

Probably similar outcomes in the end, but generally property would prevail over a long term, simply due to the ability to leverage, and also, since as soon as you have equity and sufficient cashflow, you obviously add to the portfolio ... 

I'm not purporting that one or the other is a "better" investment, but one is passive, and one is a full time job ... the key with both is being in for the long term.


I don’t play the long term game with shares! I trade when the times are great (like now - under bull market conditions).However when the tide turns my gains are thrown into cash! I spend approximately 2 hours each day doing my homework that has provided me with an exceptional standard of living! I have been trading over a lengthy period now.

Following Macro & Micro fundamentals & events globally is extremely important in my game ....

Property is passive however you still need to be astute in where to buy. Syd & Melb have had a tremendous run but eventually like shares the market will turn. Not all property markets are the same, far from it particularly in Australia at present!

Property is an investment you can’t dispose of quickly & in a negative environment this is a detriment which could also leave you hung out to dry! Property costs money ..... plenty of it & the ongoings can be quite substantial!

There are pros & cons with both types of investments.

Also leveraging in shares is a possibility if you’re confident enough!








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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mr Prospector Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Nov 2017 at 4:28pm
I wouldn't have minded getting a few of the original Berkshire Hathaway stocks . 
Google says the original IPO price was $19USD and current price is $280,440.00 USD . 

By my calculations thats about 1,400,000 % capital gain . 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dr E Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Nov 2017 at 8:09pm
Originally posted by Whale Whale wrote:

Shares can be funded by debt as well, and if the debt was as much as the debt of the house the proportional closing balance would nearly $3 million.

Property is not all smooth sailing, the example you give is of a scenario in which there are no problems, no bad tenants who ruin the property, no expensive repairs, no extended period of unrented property, agents fees are about 6% and 1 month rent for each new tenant.

I doubt that the share investment method is a full time occupation, charts can be studied st night, shares bought the next day if suitable and an automatic stop put in place, at most 2 hours a day in my opinion.

Anyway as you say it is not about what is better it is about diversification and if someone wants a share portfolio this seems a low risk, profitable way to do it

As Rosscoe points out, leveraging shares is a real test of will ... margin lending will only normally match your capital investment (50% LVR), so yes, in basic terms, you would double your return $370k becomes $740k ... however, if things go wrong, then you need to meet the call ... which usually means compromising your strategy, and liquidating shares that you would otherwise have held ... so again, without all of the variables, the answer is a "pineapple".

Likewise, there are variables with property, but those costs you mention are all tax deductible, and can mostly be mitigated by researching and acquiring the right asset.

"only" 2 hours a day, 5 days a week over 10 years = 2.5 years of full time work, say $205,000 on the average wage ... granted, most keen share traders also find it a recreational pastime as well.

True diversification would mean having equal amounts invested in both shares and property (and some in cash, art, wine and thoroughbreeds of course!)

I prefer the passive route ... save my study time for doing the racing form ... I reckon my ROI on the punt is lagging a little behind the other two "investment" options though ... just experiencing the back end of "bear" run ... it's lasted a few decades, I'm confident it will turn soon! Big smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rosscoe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Dec 2017 at 11:59pm
Originally posted by Rosscoe Rosscoe wrote:

Originally posted by Rosscoe Rosscoe wrote:

HNY investors!

The Santa Claus rally, as predicted rallied very strongly through December and is continuing through January on lighter volumes as expected with many fund managers and investors still on holidays.

The financial and material space continues to kick goals,being driven in a very bullish way! Hopefully this trend can continue and give us a great start to 2017.

January can give an insight into trends for the rest of the year, however be prepared for more volatility at some stage, particularly after Trump becomes inaugurated on Jan 20.

As mentioned the market has a taste of bullishness at present and appears to be picking up with smooth gear changes! However it only takes a bit of a pessimistic outlook by some or news of a black swan event to change the momentum. A year can be a very long time financially speaking!

I thought I'd throw up a company worth following every now and again. I still believe the materials space is looking attractive. Of the resources out there, I believe nickel has been left behind compared to other commodities. One company has grabbed my attention,,,,, .... that being WSA (Western Areas LTD)!!The chart of this company is looking favourable, currently breaking out and entering into an uptrend.

As with all investments have a strategy in place if the trend reverses. Use a basic 15% rule. My own stop-losses vary and are not set in concrete.

Happy investing and let's hope the current trends continue rolling along but also be prepared for bumps along the way. Maybe at the end of this year we'll be able to break through the All Ords 6000 point zone comprehensively!




A very brief update:-

Kapow Kabang,,, 6000 now reached! 👍

Amazing how the year has unfolded as expected!

Bull Market in full swing now and next year looking fantastic.

My recommendations A2M, CGC, SXY continue to kick huge goals.

I took some profits recently on A2M. A third sold. The stock is currently in the hands of the “Shorters”. However this will be short lived with the A2M AGM soon. May trend sideways now for a while before nudging higher.

I expect the market to keep rallying .....

Eyeing off 6100-6200 points ..... maybe by year’s end?

Resources sector looking great.

I’m now 80% invested in equities and continue to unload. My portfolio is up over 115% this year alone 😀

Beat that Fund Managers 👀👀👀👀




6100-6200 points within reach in the next week with low volumes.

What a year!

Predictions coming to fruition, some outstanding companies mentioned to follow including WTC that have blown the lights out!

A2M the pin-up by a country mile, Costa Group & Senex outstanding and another beauty in Clean TEH Holdings Ltd.

Next year looking great, commodities the place to be! Oil/Energy looking sensational,,,, other Resources looking brilliant!

My watch for the next year is Lynas (LYC) which I already hold! Up around 300%, love the technicals .....

Could be the pin-up with the rare earth prices going north! China closing down mines, this company is doing a complete revolution & turnaround from the beginning of this year, price of shares then around 5c & the company facing a liquidation possibility - now currently about 22c.Debt under control .... Watch! Could be a screamer, stop-losses required however!

That’s it for me, deciding to retire from this thread .....

Happy investing!

Also watch Cryptomania, the market that will blow all others to smithereens!

Next years target 6500-6700 points on the XJO,,,, go the ‘Bull’ with a mid-cycle correction in and around 2019.

Watch the US indices closely, the tell tale sign of a forthcoming correction will be built around their state of play ....

Also watch the VIX Index Chart - if it starts to rapidly climb, bolt for the hills!

Over & out. 🤑🤑🤑🤑🤑🤑🤑👍👌

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rosscoe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Dec 2017 at 8:32am
Just one update before signing off.

For clarification :-

Lynas with their 1 for 10 share consolidation [as of Dec 11] are worth now more than the prices mentioned above. So in real terms LYC has gone from about 50c in early 2017 to around $2.20 at present. See below:-

http://www.asx.com.au/asxpdf/20171204/pdf/43pwhjlysyk84c.pdf
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Isaac soloman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Dec 2017 at 8:03pm

Get used to mental discomfort if you want to beat the market

Investing can be uncomfortable. Unless you're the sort of person who enjoys (financial) roller coasters, the seemingly endless jumps and dives can be stressful. And that's when they're actually happening. In between, owning shares can feel like watching a horror movie with that ominous music playing in the background … you know the fright is coming, you're just not sure when.

Which is why there's a booming market for those who promise you "certainty" or that you'll "make money in up and down markets". There's no such thing as either certainty or a cast-iron promise in finance, of course, but we're hardwired to want such things, so there's money to be made in selling them. I'm going to suggest to you a better way. One that is more, well, honest, but also one that has delivered for investors time and time again.

If you can't beat the market, just buy an index fund or ETF and go fishing.

There are three outcomes when you invest: you either beat the market, you match the market, or the market beats you.

As I've written before, there's no excuse for letting the market beat you in the long term – if you're not cut out to be a stock-picking investor, you can simply buy an exchange-traded fund (ETF), which offers you the market return (less a tiny clip in fees). So, over time, the worst any of us should be doing is matching the market's return. And that's precisely what many of us should do.

However, let's say you're the sort of person who wants to beat the market. You like the challenge, you have the time and the interest, and you reckon you can do it. Here's the uncomfortable truth: not only is the market a roller coaster ride, you need to – deliberately – add some more mental discomfort.

You see, if you do what everyone else does, you'll get what everyone else gets. That is, the market return. Which is perfectly fine, as I say. But let's say you want to beat it. The only way you can do that – by definition – is to take a different view. Make a different call. Zig when the market zags.

If everyone thinks Woolies is worth $25 a share, and you think it's worth $25 per share, you'll get the market's return. You have to believe Woolies is worth more than $25 a share – and be right – to beat the market, as those shares keep climbing past $25. As people say "sell", and tell you you're mad for holding.

Or take another example. Back in 2013, Cochlear shares traded for $80. Then, it announced a recall and a lost a contract in China. Some investors decided to sell, figuring the company was now worth materially less. Others believed it was just a short-term problem.

The shares subsequently hit $55, for a 30 per cent fall in less than six months. So who was right? Well, the shares now trade at $181 a piece. The "price" of that five-year, 125 per cent gain was holding your nerve for two years as the price fell then slowly recovered. Then you had to continue to back your judgment as they continued to rise from there.

That is, you had to endure both seeing your position cut by almost one-third, as well as the market at large telling you that you were obviously wrong.

Foolish takeaway

Investing to beat the market is hard, because of the combination of skills and mental toughness you need to stay strong when the times require it. If that feels too hard, buy an ETF and happily go fishing or shopping. But if you're going to try your hand at beating the market, get used to holding unpopular opinions – it's the only way to earn superior returns.

New report: The "blue chips" of tomorrow aren't the blue chips of yesterday. If you want to look forward rather than backward, we've released our three best ideas for 2017. Click here to learn more.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mr Prospector Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Dec 2017 at 11:53am
Is it about beating the market or just investing in good value , be it shares / property / horseflesh , or whatever takes your fancy ?  I would add a disclaimer that I've said before , I'm no investment guru and get plenty wrong at times .

There are only two basic revenue streams from an investment , capital gain (realised when you sell) and business income . Both of these can be measured to some degree outside of the human factor (Numpty CEO's) . 

TPM had a price correction a little while ago and the P/E was hovering just above 10 . That's an amazing price for a growing tech company and with their story behind them . I thought that was great value .

They may still go lower given that they are building infrastructure at some cost and the revenue % will more than likely drop , but if they take a slice of Telstra business then $20-$30 / share in the future is feasible IMHO . 

I bought some Metcash at a P/E of about 11 with a turnaround story behind them and they have a little bit more growth in them before I sell . There is value out there but hard to find . 

It's really finding the good solid growth companies as opposed to Woolies/BHP/ Westfarmers who are a revenue investment and not a capital gain type. 
When you get a big correction like the GFC , its time to get excited as the P/E of your Woolies ,BHP etc.. are at discount prices and have great capital growth . 

In reply to Rosscoe and market warnings , the spread of bonds and interest rates are a red flag to an impending correction apparently . I hope you keep posting your market assessments they are appreciated Thumbs Up . 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rosscoe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Dec 2017 at 9:33am
An interesting article, the financial press should take a step back and enjoy sucking on their lollipops!!

https://www.tradinggame.com.au/tis-season-idiot/
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote max manewer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Dec 2017 at 10:03am
I'm thinking investment "gurus" are not dissimilar to racing tipsters, if they were any good, they'd keep the advice to themselves. I see the price of copper has spiked high, which is regarded as a reliable indicator of boom conditions, so I guess it is a case of how long the upswing lasts.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rosscoe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Dec 2017 at 10:29am
Originally posted by max manewer max manewer wrote:

I'm thinking investment "gurus" are not dissimilar to racing tipsters, if they were any good, they'd keep the advice to themselves. I see the price of copper has spiked high, which is regarded as a reliable indicator of boom conditions, so I guess it is a case of how long the upswing lasts.


So very true max, I was kind enough to dish out a few companies to follow over the last year on the XKO (ASX300) with spectacular results however I was also very tight-lipped to others that also blew the lights out. Two of them outperforming the pinup stock A2M.

I used to tip on races here years back with profitable results but keep these to myself & close friends. Still very profitable & only a hobby!

Being a chartist and having all sorts of information at my fingertips makes my decision making easy. However, these sorts of Bull Market conditions don’t last forever and one has to be prepared for the cycle reversal to take shelter (cash) when the time arrives.

Another interesting article follows (I happen to be in this camp in 2018) The % target might be a little stretched however:-


https://www.investopedia.com/news/2018-may-be-another-record-stocks/



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Whale Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jan 2018 at 9:44am

Cracks in the $2.5 trillion superannuation system

Do people have any idea of the risks lurking in their superannuation savings?

The issue has surfaced again, after The Australian Financial Review's Sally Patten last week revealed accusations that many super funds are masking the riskiness of their investment strategy.

Super funds have huge leeway in deciding whether they should classify particular investments as being riskier "growth" assets, or more stable "defensive" assets

Riskier assets typically generate higher returns than safer investments. This means that by disguising the levels of risk they're taking, super fund managers can appear to be heroes, because they're delivering stronger investment returns while appearing to take relatively little risk.

Indeed, industry insiders say there have been instances where risky mezzanine debt (which pays a high rate of interest because it ranks behind bank debt in terms of repayment) and investments in highly geared infrastructure projects, such as airports and toll roads, have been classified as "defensive" assets by super funds.

It means that an investor in a balanced super fund is unable to properly gauge the risks being taken with their investment.

Someone investing in a balanced fund (which, depending on the research firm, is usually defined as between 60 and 80 per cent of growth assets), could have more than 90 per cent of their super savings invested in riskier assets, without them having the faintest idea of how much risk is being taken.

The under-reporting of risk by super funds, however, isn't the only wrinkle for the country's $2.5 trillion super system. There's also the issue of the potential losses from highly-geared investment properties, particularly now that Sydney property prices are coming under pressure.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mr Prospector Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jan 2018 at 4:22pm
Originally posted by max manewer max manewer wrote:

I'm thinking investment "gurus" are not dissimilar to racing tipsters, if they were any good, they'd keep the advice to themselves. I see the price of copper has spiked high, which is regarded as a reliable indicator of boom conditions, so I guess it is a case of how long the upswing lasts.

It seems to me that the fees any fund managers charge would be closely linked to risk . If the fees are linked to performance and returns then there would be a natural preference to go for higher return investments and hence higher fees to them . 

The system rewards the fund managers into high risk .As the article says everything is fine until a correction and hence heavier losses .

It would have been easier for them in the last 12 months due to the growth in the markets across the sectors and as a consequence may now encourage them into more risky investments looking for cash with higher returns.     


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carioca Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Feb 2018 at 10:32pm
Originally posted by Rosscoe Rosscoe wrote:

Last update before my holiday.

Before that another recommendation, Senex previously recommended (SXY) is hovering around the 32c mark. I am still holding this stock and am expecting a nudge in the second half of this year! It hasn't moved much of late however I did buy in at 26c. Patience with this company.

A2 Milk (A2M) is running amok at present. I bought in at $2.60 and it recently hit close to $3.30 after a company upgrade to future earnings!! Plenty of upside with this stock and currently trending beautifully! Recommendation ... "BUY" ....

The latest on the state of play,,,, Go The Bull:-




All Ords Report 27 April 2017

According to some broker reports earlier this month, oil was experiencing the “longest winning streak” since December.

I have to shake my head when I read commentary implying that oil has been booming when what has occurred is quite different.

Reports over recent months mentioned that a rally in oil prices occurred because of optimism about OPEC oil production cuts; Iran committed to fixing output for the rest of the year, but any support this would provide may be offset by US shale drilling.

This activity has created uncertainty, and uncertainty creates volatility, which means prices can move quickly one way or the other. Last week, following the supposed rally, oil dropped by around 6 per cent.

When I see words like “winning streak”, I immediately refer to my weekly price chart to put the rise in the oil price into context. Prior to last week’s drop oil was rising for just three weeks. The real rally occurred in the first half of 2016 to an early June high. However, since that high, the oil price merely traded sideways. Although it did break higher temporarily in December 2016, oil quickly fell back into the sideways move again. Of course, speculation and supply and demand have dictated this activity.

In my opinion, any “winning streak” was a short rise and not worthy of the headline. However, US oil may rally following a strong close on any day above $53.80, as such a move would increase the probability for a more sustained rise in the US oil price, with the next target between $58 and $64.

That said we must also consider the downside for oil. If oil falls below $48 the price is likely to continue the decline to between $43 and $45 in the shorter term. Either way, this presents a great opportunity for traders with the right knowledge.


What do we expect in the market?

This month, the strong positive for Aussie shares is how the All Ordinaries Index (XAO) finally broke through the level of the 2015 high at 5963.5 points to achieve 5983 points, before falling away slightly last week. It was possible for the fall last week to spill over into this week, however, the market has bounced back up towards the 2015 high this week.

It’s exciting to finally see the market trade to a new two year high as this move aligns with my longer term view that the bulls are still in control. However, the Australian share market is nearing a time when it is preferable to see it pull back for two to four weeks so as to provide support for a solid rise in the second half of 2017.

Given this, there are opportunities to profit by increasing your exposure to shares for the medium term, however, be selective. There has been a move to solid dividend paying stocks while the miners take a breather. That said Mining and Energy are areas to watch in the second half.

To the economic front in Australia, retail spending figures are still not where economists would like to see them. Reasons given are slow wage growth and higher household debt, offsetting lower interest rates.

First quarter 2017 inflation data indicates that Australia is slightly below forecast, however, economists see this as in-line with the forecast of 2.2 per cent for the year. Given this, currently the Reserve Bank of Australia (RBA) sees no reason to change guidance from a steady cash rate.

There are two areas the RBA are watching closely, being low wage growth and a constrained labour market. Financial stability is another area, which may receive more attention later in the year. That said it is unlikely for the RBA to consider raising the cash rate until late this year or early in 2018. In my opinion, it would be a mistake for the RBA to cut the cash rate any further.




.




Can't believe A2 milk still going absolute bonkers , up 29-7% today, ..$11-30, grrr!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Baghdad Bob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Mar 2018 at 8:06pm
Do not know about others but the latest ALP policy of doing away with refunding excess franking credits is another nail in the coffin for self funded retirees.Save all your working life to support your own retirement and cop in the neck by politicians, who waltz off into their retirement on a fully indexed pension for life.
Once again the ALP is preaching the politics of envy.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oneonesit Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Mar 2018 at 11:00pm
Originally posted by Baghdad Bob Baghdad Bob wrote:

Do not know about others but the latest ALP policy of doing away with refunding excess franking credits is another nail in the coffin for self funded retirees.Save all your working life to support your own retirement and cop in the neck by politicians, who waltz off into their retirement on a fully indexed pension for life.
Once again the ALP is preaching the politics of envy.
Think they have kicked a goal for the Libs with this policy.
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acacia alba View Drop Down
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Champion


Joined: 31 Oct 2010
Status: Online
Points: 25351
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote acacia alba Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Mar 2018 at 12:07am
The grey nomads will flatten him next election.
animals before people.
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Baghdad Bob View Drop Down
Champion
Champion


Joined: 10 Feb 2010
Location: Victoria
Status: Offline
Points: 2006
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Baghdad Bob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Mar 2018 at 10:07am
I see in this morning's press the ALP's chief protector of pensioners, Jenny Maclklin, the member for Jaga Jaga,will retire on a fully indexed pension of at least $200,00 pa for life,yet she is backing the ALP's plan to scarp refunds of excess franking credits for 1.1 Australians, including many pensioners, plus 200,000 SMSFs.
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