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Super Impose - Doncaster/Epsom Handicap 1990-91

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Feb 2012 at 4:54pm
Originally posted by melbsteve melbsteve wrote:

 
Djebel you have done nothing but bag Super Impose on here claiming that he was suited by the pace in handicaps despite carrying the grandstand like it was no big deal.  I can't ever remember Super Impose winning by 7 lengths anywhere.  His style of racing meant he was never going to win by extended margins.

A lot of horses who are suited by the tempo of the race get beat because they can't sprint quickly enough under their huge weight and THAT is the point here!  Super Impose COULD sprint like a Newmarket Handicap winner carrying the grandstand in races he shouldn't have been able to and THAT is the point being made here.

Can't believe you have not given him full credit for his Cox Plate win when he had to go around the entire field which is still considered the best Cox Plate field of all time!

Have you ever seen him race as you wouldn't be so negative towards him if you had!

I don't need any help thanks...just stick to the debate and not make it personal.
 
Clearly you have an infatuation with Super Impose and can not look at the facts.
 
Shaftesbury Avenue absolutely smashed him at WFA over a mile, why was that ?
 
Super Impose was a champion amongst a champion group - Better Loosen Up, Sydeston, Shaftesbury Avenue and others.
 
Why was Super Impose able to beat anybody in A Doncaster or an Epsom but against similar horses at WFA over a mile he was not as dominating ? Becuase of the pace of handicaps. This is not a blight on the horse it is a fact.
 
Why didn't he produce the sprint of Newmarket horse over a mile at WFA where it should have been far easier for him if what you say is correct ?
 
Clearly you are infatuated with the great horse and there is no point in arguing with you. You see the great horse with rose coloured glasses.
 
 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Feb 2012 at 4:56pm
Originally posted by djebel djebel wrote:

[QUOTE=melbsteve]
A lot of horses who are suited by the tempo of the race get beat because they can't sprint quickly enough under their huge weight and THAT is the point here!  
 
This does not make any sense at all.
 
 
 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote melbsteve Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Feb 2012 at 5:38pm
Originally posted by djebel djebel wrote:

Originally posted by djebel djebel wrote:

[QUOTE=melbsteve]
A lot of horses who are suited by the tempo of the race get beat because they can't sprint quickly enough under their huge weight and THAT is the point here!  
 
This does not make any sense at all.
 
 
 

Let me put it as simply as i can for you Djebel as you are quite clearly struggling with the english language.

Even though the leaders are going fast enough to suit those back in the field, if those back in the field are carrying a weight that is beyond them then they will not run home as quickly as they would if they had less weight.  

Does that make any sense to you at all?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote melbsteve Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Feb 2012 at 5:48pm
Originally posted by djebel djebel wrote:

Originally posted by melbsteve melbsteve wrote:

 
Djebel you have done nothing but bag Super Impose on here claiming that he was suited by the pace in handicaps despite carrying the grandstand like it was no big deal.  I can't ever remember Super Impose winning by 7 lengths anywhere.  His style of racing meant he was never going to win by extended margins.

A lot of horses who are suited by the tempo of the race get beat because they can't sprint quickly enough under their huge weight and THAT is the point here!  Super Impose COULD sprint like a Newmarket Handicap winner carrying the grandstand in races he shouldn't have been able to and THAT is the point being made here.

Can't believe you have not given him full credit for his Cox Plate win when he had to go around the entire field which is still considered the best Cox Plate field of all time!

Have you ever seen him race as you wouldn't be so negative towards him if you had!

I don't need any help thanks...just stick to the debate and not make it personal.
 
Clearly you have an infatuation with Super Impose and can not look at the facts.
 
Shaftesbury Avenue absolutely smashed him at WFA over a mile, why was that ?
 
Super Impose was a champion amongst a champion group - Better Loosen Up, Sydeston, Shaftesbury Avenue and others.
 
Why was Super Impose able to beat anybody in A Doncaster or an Epsom but against similar horses at WFA over a mile he was not as dominating ? Becuase of the pace of handicaps. This is not a blight on the horse it is a fact.
 
Why didn't he produce the sprint of Newmarket horse over a mile at WFA where it should have been far easier for him if what you say is correct ?
 
Clearly you are infatuated with the great horse and there is no point in arguing with you. You see the great horse with rose coloured glasses.
 
It must be noted that Super Impose won 2 Chipping Norton Stakes over a mile at WFA, 2 Warwick Stakes over 1400m at WFA and in his first Doncaster win he beat Shaftsbury Avenue.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Feb 2012 at 12:01am
By my reckoning Super Impose had 12 starts over the Randwick mile for 5 wins, 4 of those were amazing efforts in handicaps with whopping weights, Truly remarkable efforts no question.

His one WFA win the Chipping Norton stakes he beat a good field, but they were no where near the league of Shaftesbury Avenue and Better Loosen Up, Super Imposes main contempories.

He was beaten 7 times over the Randwick mile, more than 50%. Including in his final campaign when he was clearly not anywhere near as good as his old self despite a Cox Plate victory in that campaign.

Quite simply, no matter what spin you put on it, Super Impose was suited by the hectic tempo that handicaps where run at in the 80s and 90s. He was not as suited by the slower tempo of WFA racing despite apparently having the speed of a "Newmarket" horse.

How often did Shaftesbury Avenue and Super Impose meet in handicaps and how often did they meet at WFA. The only time that Super Impose beat Shaftesbury Avenue at WFA was when Shaftesbury Avenue failed dismally in his one and only attempt around the goat track behind Surfers Paradise.

So why was it that Super Impose could give weight and a beating to Shaftesbury Avenue in handicaps but when that met at level weights in WFA races when Super Impose was clearly much better off at the weights he could not beat him, why is that ?


 



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The richest man is not he who has the most, but he who needs the least.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote melbsteve Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Feb 2012 at 1:00am
Super Impose did in fact win 2 Chipping Norton Stakes at WFA (as a 6yo at Warwick Farm and as a 7yo at Randwick).  He had 12 starts over the Randwick mile for 5 wins, 3 seconds, 1 third, 1 fourth and 2 sixths which included a win over Shaftsbury Avenue.

None of this will matter to you however as you have been denigrating his achievements from your first post.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Feb 2012 at 1:06am
Originally posted by melbsteve melbsteve wrote:

Super Impose did in fact win 2 Chipping Norton Stakes at WFA (as a 6yo at Warwick Farm and as a 7yo at Randwick).  He had 12 starts over the Randwick mile for 5 wins, 3 seconds, 1 third, 1 fourth and 2 sixths which included a win over Shaftsbury Avenue.

None of this will matter to you however as you have been denigrating his achievements from your first post.


Super Impose NEVER beat Shaftesbury Avenue at WFA yet flogged him in handicaps. Except when Shaftesbury Avenue failed at his only attempt on the goat track.

WHY IS THAT ?

EXPLAIN THAT TO ME.

You cant can you!

I have never ever denigrated Super Impose.




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Feb 2012 at 1:07am
Originally posted by djebel djebel wrote:

By my reckoning Super Impose had 12 starts over the Randwick mile for 5 wins, 4 of those were amazing efforts in handicaps with whopping weights, Truly remarkable efforts no question.

His one WFA win the Chipping Norton stakes he beat a good field, but they were no where near the league of Shaftesbury Avenue and Better Loosen Up, Super Imposes main contempories.

He was beaten 7 times over the Randwick mile, more than 50%. Including in his final campaign when he was clearly not anywhere near as good as his old self despite a Cox Plate victory in that campaign.

Quite simply, no matter what spin you put on it, Super Impose was suited by the hectic tempo that handicaps where run at in the 80s and 90s. He was not as suited by the slower tempo of WFA racing despite apparently having the speed of a "Newmarket" horse.

How often did Shaftesbury Avenue and Super Impose meet in handicaps and how often did they meet at WFA. The only time that Super Impose beat Shaftesbury Avenue at WFA was when Shaftesbury Avenue failed dismally in his one and only attempt around the goat track behind Surfers Paradise.

So why was it that Super Impose could give weight and a beating to Shaftesbury Avenue in handicaps but when that met at level weights in WFA races when Super Impose was clearly much better off at the weights he could not beat him, why is that ?


 



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Feb 2012 at 1:08am
Originally posted by djebel djebel wrote:

By my reckoning Super Impose had 12 starts over the Randwick mile for 5 wins, 4 of those were amazing efforts in handicaps with whopping weights, Truly remarkable efforts no question.

His one WFA win the Chipping Norton stakes he beat a good field, but they were no where near the league of Shaftesbury Avenue and Better Loosen Up, Super Imposes main contempories.

He was beaten 7 times over the Randwick mile, more than 50%. Including in his final campaign when he was clearly not anywhere near as good as his old self despite a Cox Plate victory in that campaign.

Quite simply, no matter what spin you put on it, Super Impose was suited by the hectic tempo that handicaps where run at in the 80s and 90s. He was not as suited by the slower tempo of WFA racing despite apparently having the speed of a "Newmarket" horse.

How often did Shaftesbury Avenue and Super Impose meet in handicaps and how often did they meet at WFA. The only time that Super Impose beat Shaftesbury Avenue at WFA was when Shaftesbury Avenue failed dismally in his one and only attempt around the goat track behind Surfers Paradise.

So why was it that Super Impose could give weight and a beating to Shaftesbury Avenue in handicaps but when that met at level weights in WFA races when Super Impose was clearly much better off at the weights he could not beat him, why is that ?.


 



STRIKE WHILST THE IRON IS HOT

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Feb 2012 at 1:09am
Originally posted by djebel djebel wrote:

By my reckoning Super Impose had 12 starts over the Randwick mile for 5 wins, 4 of those were amazing efforts in handicaps with whopping weights, Truly remarkable efforts no question.

His one WFA win the Chipping Norton stakes he beat a good field, but they were no where near the league of Shaftesbury Avenue and Better Loosen Up, Super Imposes main contempories.

He was beaten 7 times over the Randwick mile, more than 50%. Including in his final campaign when he was clearly not anywhere near as good as his old self despite a Cox Plate victory in that campaign.

Quite simply, no matter what spin you put on it, Super Impose was suited by the hectic tempo that handicaps where run at in the 80s and 90s. He was not as suited by the slower tempo of WFA racing despite apparently having the speed of a "Newmarket" horse.

How often did Shaftesbury Avenue and Super Impose meet in handicaps and how often did they meet at WFA. The only time that Super Impose beat Shaftesbury Avenue at WFA was when Shaftesbury Avenue failed dismally in his one and only attempt around the goat track behind Surfers Paradise.

So why was it that Super Impose could give weight and a beating to Shaftesbury Avenue in handicaps but when that met at level weights in WFA races when Super Impose was clearly much better off at the weights he could not beat him, why is that ??


 



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote melbsteve Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Feb 2012 at 1:18am
Originally posted by djebel djebel wrote:

Originally posted by Jim Pike Jim Pike wrote:

If I was in the trenches facing insurmountable odds, Super is the one I would want backing me up, They might beat him but it would be after the fight!!
 


I don't ever recall Super Impose having any real battling wins, he was always suited by the pace of handicaps, despite the weight he was asked to lump.

I don't ever recall him in a fight to the wire.

If there was such a race please remind me. Thumbs Up

This post is all about the great deeds of Super Impose winning the Doncaster/Epsom Handicap 1990-91 so please enlighten me as to how your above post fits in with that.  Your comments are outragous to say the least as because he was suited by the tempo of the race, the fact he carried the grandstand meant nothing.

Thank God the connections of Bernberough aren't around as you would be saying the same to them....so what if he carried impossible weights, he had the race run to suit!  Are you serious!

ps...I NEVER said Super Impose beat Shaftsbury Ave at WFA.....just over the Randwick mile!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote melbsteve Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Feb 2012 at 1:24am
He even wins Australia's premier race of champions in the Cox Plate as an 8yo and STILL no credit goes his way.  You denigrate his Cox Plate win by calling Moonee Valley a "goat track" and the interference helped him.  Even if it was a "goat track" he still had to cope with it like the rest of them.  He still had to circle the entire field as an 8yo on the verge of retirement and still win...but no....not good enough for you!

People like you who put down champions make me sick!  I will not respond anymore to this post as you have wasted enough of my time with your denigration of an Australian Champion!

RIP Super!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Feb 2012 at 1:31am
Super Impose had 12 starts over the Randwick mile. He won 5 of them.

6 starts in Randwick Mile handicaps with massive imposts for 4 wins
6 starts in WFA Randwick mile races where he was much better of weight wise for 1 win

WHY ?

Shaftesbury Avenue could not beat Super Impose when better suited at the weights yet could beat him when they had equal weights. It makes no sense unless you understand tempo and momentum.

Super Impose despite the massive weights was better suited by the tempo and momentum of handicaps in the early 90s then he was by the slower tempo and poor momentum of WFA races.

Anybody who understands tempo and momentum will understand this.



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The richest man is not he who has the most, but he who needs the least.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Feb 2012 at 1:36am
Originally posted by melbsteve melbsteve wrote:

He even wins Australia's premier race of champions in the Cox Plate as an 8yo and STILL no credit goes his way.  You denigrate his Cox Plate win by calling Moonee Valley a "goat track" and the interference helped him.  Even if it was a "goat track" he still had to cope with it like the rest of them.  He still had to circle the entire field as an 8yo on the verge of retirement and still win...but no....not good enough for you!

People like you who put down champions make me sick!  I will not respond anymore to this post as you have wasted enough of my time with your denigration of an Australian Champion!

RIP Super!


You are the one who bought this up 12 months after the debate had finished you precious soul.

You got yourself into a pickle over nothing, you emotional flip.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote goracing Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Aug 2012 at 6:44pm
Originally posted by VOYAGER VOYAGER wrote:

Outstanding horse, outstanding rider, outstanding trainer = top quality performer.
 
I will never forget the crowd standing and giving one of the biggest ovations I have seen on a ractrack awesome day.
Agree with you 100%.  Also managed to do it till he was 8/9yo.  Great effort!  Have a photo of him on my wall together with several of Phar Lap, Makeby Diva and will be adding Black Caviar, Gunsynd and Kingston Town also. Lots of other deserve to be there but limited space.
 
for the love of it
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Feb 2013 at 1:37pm
If melbsteve is still about, he might like to read Kenny Callanders column today.


STRIKE WHILST THE IRON IS HOT

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The richest man is not he who has the most, but he who needs the least.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Apr 2015 at 2:52pm
I enjoyed this debate.

Who is melbsteve these days ?


STRIKE WHILST THE IRON IS HOT

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The richest man is not he who has the most, but he who needs the least.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ExceedAndExcel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Apr 2015 at 2:59pm
Was melbsteve the guy who said he had no problems stealing left over credit in the automatic betting terminals? Might have been keen to pinch discarded winning tickets too although I could be wrong on all the details of his dishonesty.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote saintly96 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Apr 2015 at 3:09pm
Someone said that Melbsteve is alive and well and a very prolific poster on here, and still championing the Melbourne cause whenever he can.
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