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Super Impose - Doncaster/Epsom Handicap 1990-91

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M.D.3 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote M.D.3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Super Impose - Doncaster/Epsom Handicap 1990-91
    Posted: 14 Sep 2010 at 6:25pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VOYAGER Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Sep 2010 at 12:17am
Outstanding horse, outstanding rider, outstanding trainer = top quality performer.
 
I will never forget the crowd standing and giving one of the biggest ovations I have seen on a ractrack awesome day.
Remember, it might take intelligence to be smart , but it takes experience to be wise
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jim Pike Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jan 2011 at 4:04pm
I remember being there when he won his last big mile,the one after he had ran last in the BMW, I went out to Randwick thinking he wouldn't win, when the race came around I was down about $2grand and I had $200 left, I thought Sydney or the Bush I was going to back something at Double figures to give me a chance to get out of trouble, once I took all the horses out that couldn't help me (all the favs) he stood out like a beacon, I got $14 about him and had him running for $2800 his racing style didn't help the nerves, I couldn't watch until the closing stages when he got in the call, what a Horse and what a Jockey and what a genius I thought I was!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rubiton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jan 2011 at 4:46pm
Thats fourth mile when John Tapp missed him coming through - the betting ring in Canberra filled with older blokes was silent til the 150m when the caller saw him.  And then they cheered the replay.  Older punting blokes stopping what they are doing and cheering a replay - you rarely see that.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote John H Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jan 2011 at 5:07pm
I was there when Super won the fourth mile & have to say I have never seen a reception like it when he came back to scale. Not even for Octagonal during his brilliant 3YO Autumn. Or for Gunsynd in his day.

The crowd rushing from the stands  to  cheer, applaud or simply just to see old Super filled the surrounds of the enclosure, from every angle, 12 deep.

Including me.

We all knew just how special that moment was.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote M.D.3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jan 2011 at 9:21pm
Super effort!!!!
 
He then came back the next year and ran 6th & 4th not beaten far at all.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jim Pike Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jan 2011 at 6:42am
It was a Handicap, the only races that create heroes!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rubiton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jan 2011 at 8:19pm
He would ahve finished closer in that last mile but Munce took the wrong option and lost two lengths on the horse when he was carrying the grandstand.  Munce was young and hadnt been in Sydney for too long  but you always wondered what if Beadman had been there to ride him....  Oh well he went to Canberra for the paid exhibition gallop and then to the Cox Plate too.  Unfortunately it rained for the Melb Cup and he and BLU were back in the mud somewhere.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jan 2011 at 11:20am
Originally posted by Jim Pike Jim Pike wrote:

It was a Handicap, the only races that create heroes!



Spoken like a blinkered non sports follower. Stern Smile

Perhaps the poms do not deserve any accolades because the series was played on a equal basis.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jan 2011 at 11:26am
Black Caviar is building up a hero like following and has yet to run in a major handicap.

If she retires 16/16, Ribot like statistic, she will be a hero and the Newmarket will be her only handicap.


STRIKE WHILST THE IRON IS HOT

reductio ad absurdum

The richest man is not he who has the most, but he who needs the least.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bel Esprit Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jan 2011 at 12:46pm
Amazing horse!The Epsom of 91 is still the best performance ive seen on a race track to this day IMO.Looked to have no chance behind a huge wall of horses on the turn,great ride.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jim Pike Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jan 2011 at 8:42pm
Jebel who gives a flyin' f#@%k about cricket!!
Why aren't we talking about the Cox Plate win?? Why is Super idolised for his big handicap wins??
Plenty of horses win WFA races they do it every year, something has to win, not many win big handicaps carrying up to 61KG's, that is why when a horse does it he becomes more than just the best horse, he is a hero, there were quite a few who were superior to Super most of the time at WFA (Shaftsbury Ave, Better Loosen Up, Vo Rogue etc) all bloody good horses but but none could win when the odds were stacked against them, they just get lost in the mist of history, not that they are forgotten but none did anything that isn't done year after year, That's where Super stands tall and is still talked about today
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jim Pike Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jan 2011 at 8:49pm
Black Caviar isn't a hero and I doubt she ever will be, she may be the best ever but the odds will always be in her favour or they won't run, heroes go above and beyond their normal duty, like in war you don't get a medal for being the best shot if you never stick your head up, heroes take chances that the normal horse would never be asked to perform, there is a hell of a difference between being the best soldier and being a hero, same with horses if she runs in every race over her best distance say 1200/1400 or even stretches to a mile regardless of the weight she has to give to her opposition and STILL wins then she is a hero, but she will run for cover when the going gets tough and we all know it
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jim Pike Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jan 2011 at 8:54pm
Another point Super never ran from a fight, he ran in six Randwick miles, 3 Melbourne Cups Cox plates etc where ever there was a fight he was up for it and he gave his all on each and every occasion he took on all comers in races that suited them more than him, that is what makes a hero!!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jan 2011 at 12:29am
LOL You fair dinkum make it sound like horses themselves pick and choose where and when they will run. Smile


STRIKE WHILST THE IRON IS HOT

reductio ad absurdum

The richest man is not he who has the most, but he who needs the least.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bel Esprit Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jan 2011 at 9:22am
JP,how do you know that they will run for cover with BC's if the odds are against her???She's only had the 8 starts.Seems like a lot of your statements you rely on reading the future???The other thing is it's hard for her to have the odds against her in a race because she's a freak!They can only win and in the races they get put in like djebel says.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jim Pike Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jan 2011 at 8:41pm
Of course I am not blaming the horse, for Christ sake are we in Kindergarten?? does everything have to be spelled out in single syllable words?? use a little common sense,
does anyone actually think BC will run in a handicap if she were to be given in excess of 60kg's?? then if she won(and I think she would) do you think he would run again with 62KG's 
I don't and if you have any money to disprove what I think I will be happy to take it off you??
Why would they when they can just keep beating up the same horses under the same conditions?? that just makes her a bully!! she is a freak but beating the same horses all the time under the same conditions she will never really prove anything that she hasn't already proven, 
We all think she is one of the greatest sprinters of all time, how can she improve on that?? by repeating the same thing she has already done?? Hillary was famous for Climbing Everest the first time, if he did it again would that make him even better?? of course not!! 

I am not knocking BC she is a great horse but not a hero like Super was and in fact she is probably a lot better
If I was in the trenches facing insurmountable odds, Super is the one I would want backing me up, They might beat him but it would be after the fight!!
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jan 2011 at 11:47pm
You seem to take this winning caper for granted.

The winningest streak from the start of a career to their first defeat in Australia is what ? 9 wins in the metropolitan area.

Every time any horse goes to the track they have to re prove themselves, it is a whole new ball game.

If the idea that Black Caviar might be better than Super Impose is not enough to make her a "hero" than bad luck. The program they have mapped out for her during the late summer and autumn will test both her and her trainers skill.

If she remains undefeated after that than she will certainly be a hero to the majority of true sports fans.




STRIKE WHILST THE IRON IS HOT

reductio ad absurdum

The richest man is not he who has the most, but he who needs the least.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jan 2011 at 11:50pm
Originally posted by Jim Pike Jim Pike wrote:

If I was in the trenches facing insurmountable odds, Super is the one I would want backing me up, They might beat him but it would be after the fight!!
 


I don't ever recall Super Impose having any real battling wins, he was always suited by the pace of handicaps, despite the weight he was asked to lump.

I don't ever recall him in a fight to the wire.

If there was such a race please remind me. Thumbs Up


STRIKE WHILST THE IRON IS HOT

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The richest man is not he who has the most, but he who needs the least.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jim Pike Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jan 2011 at 4:03pm
Gee it's hard to explain it to people who have never seen it, Despite the weight?? you have to be kidd'n aren't you?? Super was always backable in his big mile wins because most thought it couldn't be done!! 
He was never the best horse, just that when you stacked the odds against him and it was last man standing kinda stuff, he was the one left standing
When has Black Caviar been asked to do anything that most thought she couldn't achieve?? it will never happen because they will protect her, Super ran in whatever was there in front of him, are you inferring that everything Super ran in the conditions were in his favour?? He was unlucky in a couple of Melbourne Cups, not that most thought he could win a Cup but they tried anyway, he tried his heart out over a distance that was far too far for him(like Gundsynd did 20 years before) he ran in WFA races that weren't always run to suit him but he didn't avoid them, he won a
 Cox Plate beating Let's Elope and Better Loosen Up in a close finish after circling the field, 
back pre 70's it was the sort of thing that was a regular occurrence and it is why Racing had the back pages(and some times the front pages) today the best Black caviar or any racing story gets is somewhere 20 odd pages from the back cos no one cares anymore except the diehards like you annd me but I doubt you are old enough to remember when racing wasn't just the Sport of Kings it was the KING!!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jan 2011 at 5:04pm
I call it rose coloured glasses syndrome.


STRIKE WHILST THE IRON IS HOT

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The richest man is not he who has the most, but he who needs the least.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jim Pike Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jan 2011 at 5:29pm
everything I have said is fact, you are the one looking through the rose coloured glasses, racing doesn't appeal to the general public, horses like Black Caviar will never change that, you are preaching to the converted, she appeals to racing lovers and she appeals to me very much, but outside our own little world no one has heard of her,  walk up to people in the street and ask them, very few would have heard of her unless they are already race fans
 I am far from a fan of any other sport, in fact I go out of my way to avoid any knowlege of other sports but still I have heard of heroes from many other sports because you can't avoid them, that is how racing once was, 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jan 2011 at 7:05pm
I can not think of any other sport where the heroes are decided by handicaps. By being asked to do what others have not already achieved, or beating records set by others under equal conditions.

Why is racing any different ?

Handicaps are for punters, Not for sport or its heroes.




STRIKE WHILST THE IRON IS HOT

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The richest man is not he who has the most, but he who needs the least.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jan 2011 at 7:19pm
Would Octagonal be considered a hero of his day ?

I remember he had massive press.


STRIKE WHILST THE IRON IS HOT

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The richest man is not he who has the most, but he who needs the least.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote melbsteve Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Jan 2012 at 10:28pm
Originally posted by djebel djebel wrote:

LOL You fair dinkum make it sound like horses themselves pick and choose where and when they will run. Smile

When a horse shows as much character, guts and determination like Super Impose then yes!....the horse does tell you where and when to run and that was anywhere anytime!!

As soon as a horse turns it up that's it....it won't race there again or over that distance or in another handicap or back to it's own age....so in some respects, the horse does say when and where it will race.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote melbsteve Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Jan 2012 at 10:34pm
Originally posted by djebel djebel wrote:

Originally posted by Jim Pike Jim Pike wrote:

If I was in the trenches facing insurmountable odds, Super is the one I would want backing me up, They might beat him but it would be after the fight!!
 


I don't ever recall Super Impose having any real battling wins, he was always suited by the pace of handicaps, despite the weight he was asked to lump.

I don't ever recall him in a fight to the wire.

If there was such a race please remind me. Thumbs Up

There was a race Super Impose won a few years ago by a slender margin with more interference in it than a boxing day sale crowd.  What was that race?  Oh yeah, it was the W.S. Cox Plate!  He was 20/1 that day and NOT expected to feature!

Is there anything else i can help you with today?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Jan 2012 at 10:43pm
He NEVER had to fight the length of a proper straight to win a race.

If THAT Cox Plate was a cleanly run affair he would not have finished in the money.

I am not sure what you are trying to prove MS. I have always recognised Super Impose as one of Australias all time greats. Weights did not concern him and they certainly did not stop him But he never had to battle for his wins.

THAT Cox Plate was a farce. As Moonee Valley is fullstop.

Get yourself some help.




STRIKE WHILST THE IRON IS HOT

reductio ad absurdum

The richest man is not he who has the most, but he who needs the least.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote melbsteve Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Jan 2012 at 10:55pm
Originally posted by djebel djebel wrote:

He NEVER had to fight the length of a proper straight to win a race.

If THAT Cox Plate was a cleanly run affair he would not have finished in the money.

I am not sure what you are trying to prove MS. I have always recognised Super Impose as one of Australias all time greats. Weights did not concern him and they certainly did not stop him But he never had to battle for his wins.

THAT Cox Plate was a farce. As Moonee Valley is fullstop.

Get yourself some help.



Djebel you have done nothing but bag Super Impose on here claiming that he was suited by the pace in handicaps despite carrying the grandstand like it was no big deal.  I can't ever remember Super Impose winning by 7 lengths anywhere.  His style of racing meant he was never going to win by extended margins.

A lot of horses who are suited by the tempo of the race get beat because they can't sprint quickly enough under their huge weight and THAT is the point here!  Super Impose COULD sprint like a Newmarket Handicap winner carrying the grandstand in races he shouldn't have been able to and THAT is the point being made here.

Can't believe you have not given him full credit for his Cox Plate win when he had to go around the entire field which is still considered the best Cox Plate field of all time!

Have you ever seen him race as you wouldn't be so negative towards him if you had!

I don't need any help thanks...just stick to the debate and not make it personal.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Browndog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Jan 2012 at 11:05pm
He won a Hill Stks by 7.6len and a Ranvet by 6.4len
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote melbsteve Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Jan 2012 at 11:07pm
Thanks Bruce! Thumbs Up
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