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Subsitute (quaddie)

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rooboy View Drop Down
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    Posted: 04 Mar 2010 at 8:14am
Sickening rule and a disgrace to racing.

I did a quaddie today at Sandown and was down to the last leg and I had Zeleba one out. Was a late scratching due to being fractuous in the barriers.

They gave me lakeside. 

When I assesed the form Lakeside was favourite but it wasn't ahead of 4-5 others. I put Zaleba on top purely due to having a class edge over these and it would be up on the speed.

So I get given Lakeside - my investment automatically loses when it does.

Now I have done many quaddies were I have not included 4-5$ favourites and I think it is incredibly unfair to rest ones investment on something they have not picked.

I would say the only logical way to go with quaddies is if you have taken something one out and its a late scratching then you would get you refund dependent on whether you were successful on the first three legs (which I was).

What are your thoughts punters? Do you like the Sub?
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Shakamaker View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shakamaker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Mar 2010 at 8:46am
I like the sub rule if it's a horse I have taken, but not if I think a fav is a lay and left it out originally.
But thems the rules and we have to live with it or not bet.
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rooboy View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rooboy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Mar 2010 at 8:49am
Why do you like the sub rule if it is a horse you have taken? That would mean any scratchings to any mounts and 99% of the population get the sub that wins giving you smaller dividends even if it the favourite you have taken one out.

 Or do you mean if you have a heap of them - sub comes in with a favourite scratched (like today) - people have to go to that sub and you have 2-3 other chances. 15-1 gets up and knocks the poor suckers stuck on the snail sub?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shakamaker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Mar 2010 at 9:39am
Well at least if it wins it doubles my percentage which would make up for any reduction in dividends.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Luva Punt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Mar 2010 at 4:22pm
The only other options are they could pay you a special dividend, like they do for getting 5 in the big 6, or else they could spread your investment over every runner in the race.

Both are fairer, in my opinion. 

If you get paid for the 3 winners you have picked, that is fair.
I am sure if you put a series of all ups on the bookies boards, you would get your payout, not just thrown on the favourite.

This is also open to manipulation, especially with corporates laying off into tote pools.

The only other option is to spread your bet over all runners.
If the favourite wins, your dividend would be decreased, but if a roughie wins, your dividend would increase.

Either way, you would still win, which, you were winning before your horse was scratched.

The sub rule is ridiculous.  Like you said.  We'll make you back a horse you didn't want to be on, and reduce the dividend of everyone who chose it also, penalising them too!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ExceedAndExcel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Mar 2010 at 4:38pm
Why can't they just give you a refund on the combinations that are now out of play? Having said that the rules are clear and you know them before putting the bet on.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Moccastocker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Mar 2010 at 5:04pm
As has already been pointed out, the basis of the rule - essentially putting your money onto a horse you didn't select - is so wrong as to be beyond argument.  I didn't want a bar of Lakeside yesterday, and if I had a one-out put onto her because of a late scratching, I'd have been furious.
 
Is it really that hard to just refund the portion of the bet that has been scratched, even if you're already out?  A bit of punter education, hold your tickets until the final leg, just in case there's a scratching.
 
I'd much prefer a portion of my money back to doing it cold on a horse I didn't think could win and didn't want to bet on.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nocturnal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Mar 2010 at 5:17pm
Would you have thought thought the same if Lakeside had won?
In this day and age of technology surely if you are taking a one out you can pick your own sub.  A seperate pick on the original ticket .
I would like to be able to buy back into the quaddie if you miss the first leg.
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Shakamaker View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shakamaker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Mar 2010 at 5:31pm
Good idea nominating a sub if you go one out, but not sure how buying back into a quaddie would work
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gee Gee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Mar 2010 at 6:35pm
i like it. I won a quaddie a few years ago when i thought the fave would get beat, so i left it out, one of my picks got late/s, Luckily the fave came in and saved my day!
 
can work both ways, soon enough you'll get it your way.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baghdad Bob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Mar 2010 at 7:27pm
Once  you take a daily double. quaddie or Big 6 you accept the betting rules that apply to those bet types. The substitution rule , for better or worse, applies. The merits of the sub system have been argued for years and I nothing is going to change.
Like, Danny Nikolic, who had to accept that once he signed on the dotted line he would abide by the Rules of Racing, punters will have to go accepting substitutes are part and parcel of those bet types. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gun Punter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Mar 2010 at 8:44pm
It's good if you have a roughie which gets scratched and you already have the sub selected.  If the sub gets up you get double your % and the dividend wouldn't have been effected much being a roughie.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote questions Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Mar 2010 at 9:01pm

the rule sux but there is no better solution

"it's not gambling if you're absolutely sure you're gonna win" Barney Stinson
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gay3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Mar 2010 at 9:37pm
I'm guessing no refunds due to its' effect on pool size, particularly if a shortie is scratched. I'm lucky to find 1 winner/meet so looking for 4 is out of the question therefore Quaddies don't interest me Wink
Experience is something you gain a few minutes after you could have used it!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baghdad Bob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Mar 2010 at 12:14am
Gunpunter

So you have all bets level staked ? You do not do justice to your nick.


If short priced runner is a late scratching the money goes on the substitute and accordingly the odds of that horse are often smashed . After that late scratching, in a theoretical market,  ALL starters odds are adjusted down , however on the TAB the only horse affected is the substitute. All the value is with all runners BAR the subsitute, which carries the extra money with no better chance of winning, in relation to the other runners, than it had  before the late scratching.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jazzman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Mar 2010 at 12:26am
Back in the day, you'd get the 11 if you chose the 1, and the 13 if you chose the 3. I always thought it unfair though if you had the 6 and there were only 15 runners ....
Istidaad kicking strongly, he's 2 lengths clear, Crawl gets out from a well back and old Mustard is grinding home... Hang on, Treasury Notes gets out from the back and she'll blouse them all!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gun Punter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Mar 2010 at 1:11am
Originally posted by Baghdad Bob Baghdad Bob wrote:

Gunpunter

So you have all bets level staked ? You do not do justice to your nick.


If short priced runner is a late scratching the money goes on the substitute and accordingly the odds of that horse are often smashed . After that late scratching, in a theoretical market,  ALL starters odds are adjusted down , however on the TAB the only horse affected is the substitute. All the value is with all runners BAR the subsitute, which carries the extra money with no better chance of winning, in relation to the other runners, than it had  before the late scratching.
 
Baghdad Bob, if you read my post correctly I said if a roughie is scratched and you already have the sub then it's a good thing if it gets up.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rooboy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Mar 2010 at 1:17am
I can understand the fact if Lakeside won I would have been happy as larry but that isn't the game I want to play.

When i back a horse I am not relying on pure luck im relying on all factors i have considered. if thought zaleba was good enough to go one out on in the last then i didn't think there was a clear thing to beat her. whether i was right or wrong ill never know but horses were leading all day and holding on which is her pattern so that pisses me off even more.

so iv been given something i didnt like enough to win i dont see how that is fair.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gun Punter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Mar 2010 at 1:21am
There are late scratchings in Quaddie races often.  I would hate it if there were divs paid for getting 3 legs or whatever.  Payouts would be terrible.  I would leave it as is.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Wortel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Mar 2010 at 1:51am
You can't rob the pools of any money at any point.

The punters that do win just will not bet if the money is getting stolen for every late scratching.

I like it the way it is.

Once I had 2 horses in a leg and one scratched and the other was the fav anyway.

I won and got double divvy :)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baghdad Bob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Mar 2010 at 2:40am
Gun punter you wrote.."if the sub gets up you get double your % and the dividend wouldn't have been effected much being a roughie."

" double your % " implies you have the same bet on the roughie as the subsistute , sure the dividend would not be smashed as much if the roughie is the late scratching, however your statement indicates you level stake, otherwise how would your bet % double ?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nocturnal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Mar 2010 at 3:35am
Originally posted by Shakamaker Shakamaker wrote:

Good idea nominating a sub if you go one out, but not sure how buying back into a quaddie would work
 
Me either but it would be fun
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dennis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Mar 2010 at 4:07am
Punters don't like the sub rule and many don't even know who they have when they jump, broadcaster included ( ridiculous).....should be simplified to please punters and make them continue to have quads and other exotic bets.  With flexi betting in full swing in Victoria, if a late scratching give the punter every runner but only on a percentage basis, say 10 runners 10% of dividend, in this way they have to collect no matter what, if a longshot gets up they are happy if the shortest priced runner gets up they are still more than likely win a reasonable amount.   Dividends on average pay well on quads except Sydney only 4 and 5 runners a race, but overall should not create any major problems. 
p.s I've put a patent on this solution so if its bought into play it will cost.
Good luck.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Moccastocker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Mar 2010 at 5:44am
Australia Day was amusing - Time Matters was scratched in the second leg of the quaddie at Caulfield.  SuperTab sub was Dane Keeper, despite on-course favourite being Joku.  Joku was the sub for UniTab.  Abortion of a system.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pardon_My_Dust Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Mar 2010 at 4:28pm
When alive in the last leg give me any substitute over my money back and day of the week. If you had the sub going for a few grande would you really be prepared to accept your $50-100 back? I can't imagine too many punters that would!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gun Punter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Mar 2010 at 8:07pm
Originally posted by Baghdad Bob Baghdad Bob wrote:

Gun punter you wrote.."if the sub gets up you get double your % and the dividend wouldn't have been effected much being a roughie."

" double your % " implies you have the same bet on the roughie as the subsistute , sure the dividend would not be smashed as much if the roughie is the late scratching, however your statement indicates you level stake, otherwise how would your bet % double ?
 
You've lost me Bob.  If one of your runners gets scratched and you already have the sub selected and the sub gets up then you get the quaddie twice.  If you had 20% you'll get that twice giving you 40%.  If you had it for 50% then you'll end up getting 100%.  How hard is that to understand???
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jolls Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Mar 2010 at 8:10pm
Im with you GP, not sure what Bob is on about
Season 2012 = 102 Years since Collingwood has beaten Carlton in a Grand Final.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baghdad Bob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Mar 2010 at 11:06pm
If you had a scratched horse for 40% and the substitute for 100% you might get it twice but not double the dividend , which your post implied, but for 140%. Twice does not mean the same as double in this context.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gun Punter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Mar 2010 at 12:04am
I said you get double your %.  I never said double the dividend.  Do you know how to read English?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baghdad Bob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Mar 2010 at 4:18am
Since when has 40% + !00 % = 200% ....that is NOT double the %

You should have said " I will get two dividends , one for 40% and another for 100%, providing of course you had a different stake on the scratching from the sub, however, I am guessing your are a 'level staking punter" and would have the same units on all combinations across the board and would therefore have it twice for the same percentage.

I love punters who level stake they create all the value for punters who know how to stake, especially those who take the field in the hope of an outsider getting up. Can you imagine Zjelko taking a quaddie with all bets level staked ? Not in a month of Sundays.


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