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Cityboy View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cityboy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Apr 2017 at 10:10pm
If you can refer or guide us to the statistics and facts that demonstrate stallions that have run more than 25 times have a lesser chance of success then I'd Iove to see them.

However, I don't think such statistics or facts exist and therefore suspect you are simply stating one of the many myths that often get repeated,and eventually believed by many in the horse breeding world.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Aurelius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Apr 2017 at 8:08am
23/06/15

I penned a story a couple of years ago about Pierro’s retirement and his possible stud success or otherwise - and in that article I made a point of mentioning that Pierro’s sire Lonhro was in many ways quite unique as “99% of what could reasonably be called successful stallions are retired from the racetrack before they’ve had 25 or more starts”.

I also noted “very few stallions that have either 1) raced in Australia, or 2) that have been imported into Australia in the last 40 years to stand at stud after their racing career is over, can prove my statement wrong”.

There’s no question that Lonhro had 35 starts, so he’s clearly one stallion that overcame my “25 or more starts” theory, but emails came into the website suggesting the names of various stallions that were also heavily raced that were “successful”. One well-known breeding buff sent me an email stating: "Re your article on Pierro's stud prospects, the missing information is what percentage of stallions with 25+ starts actually make it to stud. A very low percentage is my guess. Here are a few who won a championship of one form or another who broke your rule: Vice Regal (60 starts, 21 wins, 16 black-type), Nassipour (46-7-3), Kingdom Bay (37-13-10), Sound Reason (36-13-10), Dahar (26-6-6). Just about all of them exceeded your 60% winners-to-runners and 5% stakeswinners-to-runners parameters)".

So what I decided to do was pull out two annual Stallions books 10 years apart and that would be a fair way to research the progeny statistics of all advertised stallions in that publication that had 25 or more starts.

I worked off the earliest Stallions book that I have, which is the 1995 edition - and in that edition some 208 stallions were advertised, so here are all the stallions from that listing of 208 stallions that 1) had had 25 starts or more and 2) were considered valuable enough and marketable enough to be advertised in the publication.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Aurelius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Apr 2017 at 8:10am
STALLION

BEST CAREER WIN/S

NO. STARTS

SERVICE FEE

At Talaq

3 x G1 (Melb Cup)

28

$8,000

Azzaam

1 x G1 (Syd Cup)

47

$3,000

Bay of Hope

Welter

44

$2,500

Canadian Silver

Listed

29

O/A*

Celestial Dancer

G3

26

O/A*

Cenchire

Open Handicap

40

$2,500

Cossack Warrior

G2

28

$6,000

Creese

Listed

31

$2,750

Dieu D’or

Listed

32

$5,000

Donegal Mist

G1

63

$3,500

Dr Grace

3 x G1

57

$7,000

Fearless Pride

G1

27

O/A*

Forever Regal

Allowance race

51

O/A*

Gopak

Open Handicap

28

$1,500

High Regard

G1

45

$3,500

Ideal Planet

G1

34

$2,500

In The Slot

Listed

36

$1,750

Interstellar

G1

26

$3,000

Ivory Way

Welter

31

$2,500

King’s High

2 X G1

37

$5,000

Lance

G3

44

O/A*

Maharajah

G2

32

$2,000

Military Plume

2 X G1

25

$10,000

Naturalism

3 X G1

34

$12,000

New Atlantis

G2

31

$1,500

Noalcoholic

G1

28

$4,000

Northern Fred

Open Handicap

27

$2,000

Paris Prince

G2

47

O/A*

Phizam

G1

40

$1,500

Polish Blue

3YO Open

28

O/A*

Pride of Kellina

G3

30

$3,000

Prince Tattenham

Open Handicap

66

$1,250

Procol Harum

G1

31

$3,000

Quick Score

G2

28

$4,000

Rancho Ruler

G1

29

$6,000

River of Light

Listed

29

$3,000

Rode Rouge

Open Handicap

50

$1,000

Royal Pardon

G2

43

$2,500

Sanction

Open Handicap

32

$7,000

Sarab

G1

33

O/A*

Sarason

G2

28

$2,000

Shalford

G3

25

O/A*

Sea Swell

G2

27

$2,500

Somalia

Open Handicap

35

$2,000

Somethingdifferent

G2

38

$3,000

Southern Appeal

G1

50

$4,000

Sports Works

G2

25

$3,000

Super Fiesta

G1

28

O/A*

Tawrrific

G1

64

$3,000

Umatilla

G1

38

$5,000

Vain Karioi

Listed

45

$3,000

Watney

3 x G1

34

$1,000

White Bridle

Open Handicap

32

$3,000

Wonga Chief

Class 4

44

$700

Wonga’s Joy

Listed

35

$1,500

Yallah Prince

Open Handicap

40

$4,000

Yonder

G2

25

$4,000

Zoffany

3 x G1

36

$5,500
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Aurelius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Apr 2017 at 8:11am
STALLION

WINNERS-TO-RUNNERS RATIO

STAKESWINNERS-TO-RUNNERS RATIO

At Talaq

69.27%

7.53%

Celestial Dancer

66.24%

1.45%

Cossack Warrior

68.44%

1.22%

Naturalism

57.62%

1.35%

Military Plume

70.24%

6.58%

Noalcoholic

64.60%

4.42%

Rancho Ruler

61.45%

2.60%

Zoffany

70.77%

3.89%



So as you can see from this table, many stallions were able to produce 60% winners-to-runners, or better, but they couldn’t throw the necessary number of black type winners to get them to 5% or above stakeswinners-to-runners. The classic example above is Celestial Dancer. He was a wonderful “bread and butter” sire as he could produce 66.24% winners-to-runners in his stud career yet of his 1031 individual runners, only 1.45% won a stakes race and in fact not one of those 1031 individual runners won a Group 1 race. Celestial Dancer however set a world record in the 1995/96 season by producing over 100 individual winners in a season.



If you look at the dearest priced stallion from the entire group of 58 stallions that started 25 times or more – Naturalism - he may well have won three Group 1 races (AJC Derby, Rosehill Guineas and Caulfield Stakes), but he couldn’t even throw 60% winners –to-runners and he could only throw four stakeswinners from 295 individual runners and only one of those four won at Group 3 level or above (Natural Destiny – Group 3) and one of the four won the then Listed 2001 Grand National Hurdle (Nautilism).



So from this entire group of 58 stallions only two or 3.44% were proven to be “successful” and they were At Talaq (28 starts) and Military Plume (25 starts). That conversely means that 96.56% of stallions that had had 25 starts or more were unsuccessful at stud, so taking the number of starts that a stallion has in his racing career should constitute a far more important factor to broodmare owners looking for a stallion for their mare/s, stud masters sourcing a stallion, or yearling buyers attending sales than it is currently given.



I also wish to publicly thank “Australia and New Zealand’s leading thoroughbred pedigree provider” Arion Pedigrees (www.arion.co.nz) for their wonderful assistance in getting me the final statistical progeny figures of some of these stallions that stood 18 years ago, so that I could research the article fully.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Aurelius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Apr 2017 at 8:14am
24/06/15

Yesterday I displayed publicly an article which researched the stud career of all advertised stallions that stood in Australia in 1995 - that had had 25 starts or more. The annual Stallions book was the source to name the stallions, as it’s not a cheap exercise to advertise stallions in books like that, so I figured by advertising in that publication, owners of the various stallions were happy in their own mind that their stallion/s were deemed "commercial" and were at least a marketable entity.

The article that I wrote yesterday can be read by clicking on the last article at the bottom of this one. It showed that of the 58 "commercial" stallions that stood in Australia in 1995 and had had 25 or more starts, which were advertised in Stallions, only two were deemed to be “successful” by virtue of the fact that they’d achieved a winners-to-runners ratio of 60% as well as a stakeswinners-to-runners ratio of 5%.

As at 2005 the stallions named below, that had 25 starts inclusive or more, were advertised in the Stallions book of that year. Naturally some of the stallions that were named in the 1995 article were still standing at stud in 2005, so their names will be duplicated here. As a matter of interest 282 stallions were advertised in the Stallions publication in 2005.

Here is the complete list from 2005 Stallions - of stallions that had 25 starts or more:

STALLION

BEST CAREER WIN

NO. STARTS

SERVICE FEE

Adam

2 X G1

51

$5,000

Admiralty

G3

41

$3,300

Arena

2 X G1

32

$13,750

Black Hawk

2 X G1

28

$11,000

Blevic

2 X G1

26

$5,500

Canadian Silver

G2

29

FOA*

Centre Stalls

Listed

26

$3,300

Chatline

3YO Open

27

FOA*

Citizen Kane

G3

34

$2,000

Curata Storm

G1

31

$3,080

Danbird

G2

28

$8,800

Danewin

5 X G1

31

$22,000

Dash For Cash

2 X G1

30

$11,000

Delzao

G2

27

$7,700

Diatribe

2 X G1

33

$8,250

Dieu D’or

Listed

32

$3,300

Ebony Grosve

2 X G1

29

$11,000

Elvstroem

5 x G1

28

$38,500

Falbrav

10 X G1

26

$38,500

Falvelon

2 X G1

37

$13,750

Fantastic Light

6 x G1

25

$27,500

Filante

2 X G1

25

$5,500

Fraar

1 X G1

35

$4,400

Half Hennessy

1 X G1

25

$8,800

High Rolling

Listed

28

$4,400

Hobb Alwahtan

Open H/cap

29

$3,300

Immovable Option

G2

26

FOA*

Inflate

Listed

25

$3,300

Intergaze

8 x G1

49

$5,500

Jetway

Open H/cap

61

$2,200

Jeune

4 X G1

42

$12,100

Lawyer

G2

34

$3,300

Lonhro

11 X G1

35

$66,000

Manner Hill

G3

41

$5,500

Marwina

G3

27

$5,500

Mr Innocent

G1

39

$6,050

Mugharreb

Listed

28

$5,500

My Patriarch

G3

26

$2,200

Naturalism

3 X G1

34

$2,500

Nediym

G3

41

$3,300

Nothin’ Leica Dane

2 X G1

27

$5,500

Octagonal

10 X G1

28

$33,000

Principality

1 X G1

25

$3,850

Reenact

1 X G1

30

$5,500

Right Wing

G3

37

$4,400

Saithor

Open H/cap

29

$3,300

Sequalo

G2

40

FOA*

Shags

Listed

39

$2,000

Show A Heart

4 x G1

33

$17,600

Tabkir

Open H/cap

39

$2,750

Taimazov

2 x G1

29

$11,000

Telesto

2 x G1

42

$3,300

Tully Dane

G3

33

$5,500

Umatilla

G1

38

$6,600

Universal Prince

4 x G1

30

$11,000

Urgent Request

1 X G1

25

$3,300

Vitrinite

Listed

60

$3,300

* FOA = Service Fee on application



From this above group of 57 stallions that had had 25 or more starts, no fewer than 30 (52.63%) were Group 1 winners either in Australia or overseas when they went off to stand at stud.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Aurelius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Apr 2017 at 8:14am
From this above group of 57 stallions that had had 25 or more starts, no fewer than 30 (52.63%) were Group 1 winners either in Australia or overseas when they went off to stand at stud.



From this group of 57 stallions the vast majority failed, but ones that need statistically checking publicly to avoid answering copious emails are - in alphabetical order:



STALLION

% WINNERS-TO-RUNNERS

% STAKESWINNERS-TO-RUNNERS

Black Hawk

62.47%

1.49%

Blevic

58.42%

4.30%

Canadian Silver

62.74%

0.75%

Danbird

42.1%

0.60%

Danewin

71.98%

8.13%

Dash For Cash

59.91%

1.69%

Elvstroem

48.10%

2.06%

Falbrav

57.17%

2.91%

Falvelon

62.69%

1.77%

Fantastic Light

55.98%

3.40%

Filante

53.87%

1.71%

Jeune

70.77%

4.92%

Lonhro

70.24%

7.85%

Nothin’ Leica Dane

56.85%

1.99%

Octagonal

62.28%

3.07%

Sequalo

67.67%

1.93%

Show A Heart

61.70%

3.37%

Universal Prince

44.05%

0.00%



So from those 57 stallions that had 25 or more racetrack starts only two – Danewin and Lonhro – or 3.50% of the entire group, were later proven to be successful at stud, so conversely 96.50% failed at stud, as in they failed to achieve a winners-to-runners ratio of 60% or higher, as well as a stakeswinners-to-runners ratio of 5% or over.



The only four stallions whose names were replicated in both the 1995 list in the original article yesterday and this 2005 list are Canadian Silver, Dieu D’or, Naturalism and Umatilla, meaning that across both articles the statistics of a total of 111 individual stallions that raced 25 times or more were researched and of that 111 only four stallions or 3.60% of the entire group – namely At Talaq, Military Plume, Danewin and Lonhro achieved my “successful sire” statistics. Some 96.40% of the entire group failed at stud, so both broodmare owners and yearling sale buyers need to be aware of the ordinary statistics relating to heavily raced stallions which were randomly picked from being at stud in 1995 and 2005 in Australia.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Aurelius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Apr 2017 at 8:16am
Pretty simple formula for a successful Stallion.

60% or better Winners to Runners
5% Stakes Winners to runners.

Which I think is quite fair.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Second Chance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Apr 2017 at 8:33am
The reality is that about 90% of potential sires become relative failures, irrespective of how many starts they might have had.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote furious Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Apr 2017 at 8:57am
That's the trouble SC.  Most don't make it at stud.  There is always something to point out why it didn't succeed.  I'd love to know why Helmet and Sepoy seem to be doing much better at stud in Europe!  Nothing is cut and dried - sometimes it's just that the stallion is an ideal cross the the vast majority of mares out there.  In Australia that means Danehill with a Star Kingdom background.  Now if we can find the next great cross we will have an explosion and a breed shaper.  At the moment we are just marking time waiting.  But breedshapers don't just come along every day.

We had plenty of Northern Dancer blood here before Danehill came.  Some very poor indeed despite good race records or pedigrees.  He wasn't even the best to come but he had exactly what was needed.  He crossed well with Bletchingly and Sir Tristram who had been the two best before him so the ground was prepared for him.  But his brother couldn't do it.  It was Danehill's group of gene's (which his brother didn't inherit despite the same sire and dam) which was the prize winner.  Nothing to do with starts.  Just the right combination of genes meeting the right group of mares.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Aurelius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Apr 2017 at 9:02am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Aurelius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Apr 2017 at 9:05am
Originally posted by furious furious wrote:

That's the trouble SC.  Most don't make it at stud.  There is always something to point out why it didn't succeed.  I'd love to know why Helmet and Sepoy seem to be doing much better at stud in Europe!  Nothing is cut and dried - sometimes it's just that the stallion is an ideal cross the the vast majority of mares out there.  In Australia that means Danehill with a Star Kingdom background.  Now if we can find the next great cross we will have an explosion and a breed shaper.  At the moment we are just marking time waiting.  But breedshapers don't just come along every day.
<div id="UMS_TOOLTIP" style=": ; cursor: pointer; : 2147483647; : transparent; top: -100000px; left: -100000px;">

We had plenty of Northern Dancer blood here before Danehill came.  Some very poor indeed despite good race records or pedigrees.  He wasn't even the best to come but he had exactly what was needed.  He crossed well with Bletchingly and Sir Tristram who had been the two best before him so the ground was prepared for him.  But his brother couldn't do it.  It was Danehill's group of gene's (which his brother didn't inherit despite the same sire and dam) which was the prize winner.  Nothing to do with starts.  Just the right combination of genes meeting the right group of mares.


Of the ones that make it too stud Furious.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote slowdown Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Apr 2017 at 9:08am

you have put a lot of work into this. I wonder what the percentage is overall taking into account the entire entries to the book. too much work I know but it would be interesting....

Sh'Bourne Star - racingSh'Bourne Dynasty - 2 weeks into next prep .sh'Bourne riverman- 2 months off with hoof bruising sh'bourne rebel - shinny. sh'bourne Attila - spelling after breaking.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MichaelM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Apr 2017 at 9:16am
Originally posted by slowdown slowdown wrote:

you have put a lot of work into this. I wonder what the percentage is overall taking into account the entire entries to the book. too much work I know but it would be interesting....



They are quoting research conducted by Phil Purser. Enough said!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mr Prospector Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Apr 2017 at 9:22am
Originally posted by Aurelius Aurelius wrote:

Pretty simple formula for a successful Stallion.

60% or better Winners to Runners
5% Stakes Winners to runners.

Which I think is quite fair.


I think that everyone would agree with that stat , it's a really good criteria for a proven successful stallion .
There may be more to the picture than just the number of starts though . These days any stallion with a sexy pedigree who has won a top speed G1 will be retired to the barn early due to the amount of money they can generate at stud . Are sprinting stallions more successsful than staying stallions and in the main which have more starts ?

I haven't looked and you may have the answer , what is the percentage of stallions that have retired to stud over the last 5 years have had 25 or more starts ?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Aurelius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Apr 2017 at 9:50am
Originally posted by MichaelM MichaelM wrote:

Originally posted by slowdown slowdown wrote:

you have put a lot of work into this. I wonder what the percentage is overall taking into account the entire entries to the book. too much work I know but it would be interesting....



They are quoting research conducted by Phil Purser. Enough said!


Even worse the data comes from Stallion Book!

All hail George Michael he really knows his stuff!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Aurelius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Apr 2017 at 9:54am
Originally posted by Mr Prospector Mr Prospector wrote:

Originally posted by Aurelius Aurelius wrote:

Pretty simple formula for a successful Stallion.

60% or better Winners to Runners
5% Stakes Winners to runners.

Which I think is quite fair.


I think that everyone would agree with that stat , it's a really good criteria for a proven successful stallion .
There may be more to the picture than just the number of starts though . These days any stallion with a sexy pedigree who has won a top speed G1 will be retired to the barn early due to the amount of money they can generate at stud . Are sprinting stallions more successsful than staying stallions and in the main which have more starts ?

I haven't looked and you may have the answer , what is the percentage of stallions that have retired to stud over the last 5 years have had 25 or more starts ?


*hit P I struggled to come up with that copy and paste.

I think the Governer James may be able to pull that stat quite easily!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kavg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Apr 2017 at 10:44am
Looking at the list of stallions from 2005 I would have thought from their performances and type that the most likely to be successful would have been Octagonal, Lonhro then maybe Elvstroem, Danewin and then perhaps Falvelon. That is how I would have thought at the time. ( i have since changed my appraisal of whether a sire will be successful or not). The others would have been line ball or I would have thought they'd struggle anyway. I'm not guessing on the quality of the overseas stallions.

I don't think these sires would have been any better or worse if the had a handful of starts but we are all guessing. 

Out of interest, what overall percentage of stallions reach the 60% w to r and 5% sw to r?

That may be a better way off looking at it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bradjm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Apr 2017 at 10:52am
I'd hardly call a stallion who doesn't get 5% stakes winners a flop

You have to factor that in relative to service fee.

Very few of those stallions listed would have stood for a large fee in their first few seasons, and most because they weren't sprinting types retired, the type of stallion usually shunned.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote furious Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Apr 2017 at 11:35am
Ok there is another way to look at this.  If you point blank don't go to stallions with above 25 starts you are missing out on perhaps improving the breed!

Now Champion Stallions can come and go.  Some lines breed on and others disappear.  Some live on through the dam side and others just seem to disappear from pedigrees.  No doubt about it the ones that continue on are not always the champion of their day but sometimes they have something essential for the breed.

Do you remember horses like the ones I list below.  They not only had a Championship win or two or three or up to seven.  They can still be found in pedigrees today - some pretty far back - but without them the breed would be different.

Polymelus - 31 starts and 5 times a Champion Sire - sire of Phalaris sire of Pharos sire of Nearco etc etc

Pharos - 30 starts and Champion in both France and England - as above

Nearctic - 47 starts and 7 times a Champion Sire - sire of Northern Dancer etc etc etc

Nashua - 30 starts - he appears in both Roberto and Mr Prospector lines of which there are many

Matrice - 43 starts and the start of the Australia Breed Champion sire - he sired Pago Pago who went out into the world - so generations past we find Dancing Brave, Oasis Dream, Dubawi, Makfi, Power etc

Noholme - 41 starts and a Champion Juvenile Sire in the USA - sired a Champion Sire in Nodouble while Savabeel is one Champion sire of today with his influence

Halo - 31 starts and 2 times Champion Sire - sire of Sunday Silence need I say more

Sundridge - 35 starts and Champion Sire - sire of Sunstar who Star Kingdom was inbred to

Round Table - 66 starts and Champion Sire - well we have Sir Tristram blood doing a good job representing him

Princequillo - 33 starts - likewise Zabeel, Sir Tristram and Savabeel

Heroic - 51 starts and 7 times Champion Sire - Luskin Star, Pago Pago, Dancing Brave etc etc

Tom Fool - 30 starts and 4 times Champion Sire - sire of Silly Season who's son Lunchtime is still going strong in Australian pedigrees

There are others as well.  I think you will find a colt is less likely to race on than a gelding of filly.  Probably after five or six undefeated starts it just is too hard to race on and maybe be beaten.  But you will find many with few starts don't make it at stud.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kavg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Apr 2017 at 12:37pm
Originally posted by furious furious wrote:

Ok there is another way to look at this.  If you point blank don't go to stallions with above 25 starts you are missing out on perhaps improving the breed!

Agree Furious,

I'm sure I'm not the only one who believes that when colts are retired early, particularly as early 3yo's it is mostly because they were early maturers and performed at top level as 2yo's and early 3yo. The trainers, owners, studs know that the rest have caught up. So to keep the appearance of superiority they either invent an injury or blow a small injury into a large injury and rush them off to stud. I could list many examples of this.

Now some have genuine injuries and need to be retired. And some of these early retirees may be good for the breed whether a forced or an exaggerated retirement but I like to think that soundness, toughness and maturity need to be a deciding factor in going to a stallion, otherwise the breed suffers all over the world. The Poms and yanks tend to do the same thing as us. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Sir Gov Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Apr 2017 at 1:34pm
Stallion stats also are hugely influenced by their mare book. 

We often hear the term upgrade - & I am Invincible is a classic example.  Now with the good mares, will he get better?  Time will telll!

When stallions become successful & all the well 'bred' mares go to them, a large number are unraced/non city winners but have a great page - There is a good reason often why they are unraced!

Give me a stallion who has had many lightly raced, winning mares in their 1st year & the numbers look better on avg (ie. Iam Inv)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MichaelM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Apr 2017 at 2:35pm
Originally posted by Aurelius Aurelius wrote:

Originally posted by MichaelM MichaelM wrote:

Originally posted by slowdown slowdown wrote:

you have put a lot of work into this. I wonder what the percentage is overall taking into account the entire entries to the book. too much work I know but it would be interesting....



They are quoting research conducted by Phil Purser. Enough said!


Even worse the data comes from Stallion Book!

All hail George Michael he really knows his stuff!



You're a peculiar one. All I asked was if you truly believed a stallion's genetics were influenced by if they had a hard racing career or not?

I assume you referring to me as George Michael is an attempt at name calling?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Second Chance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Apr 2017 at 3:00pm
Current stallions in Stallions 2016.Looked at all those who've been a stud long enough to establish their credentials.

The following sires raced for three more seasons and/or raced on quite a few occasions, and have proven successful at stud:

Artie Schiller, Choisir, Equiano, I Am Invincible, Lonhro, Love Conquers All, Medaglia D'Oro, Show A Heart, So You Think, Starcraft, Star Spangled Banner, Testa Rossa.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote early4lunch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Apr 2017 at 3:13pm
I am not sure of his  class, plenty of ordinary performances at the top level  . Nice horse , solid pedigree and Widden do have a good record of finding a good stallion . $11k is plenty .
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sir Gov Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Apr 2017 at 3:40pm
Redoute's Choice - set up a great model.

10 starts - lightly raced, retired not long after the Orr
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Second Chance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Apr 2017 at 3:55pm
Let's look at the $ equation.

A colt that wins $2m at two or three might go on to win another $1-2m as a 4yo.  That's a total of $3-4m. 

Then again, if he goes to stud at four instead he might generate $4-5m in stud fees that first season, making a total of $6-7m over the same period.

So why would you race on at 4 and risk damaging its value?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote furious Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Apr 2017 at 4:00pm
Well it certainly making pleanty of mares worth their weight in gold.  Look you can get colts who never raced be champion sires and obviously lots in that 10 to 20 mark.  But don't mark off the others.  They may or may not make the grade but if they have something to offer your mare please look at them.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sir Gov Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Apr 2017 at 4:12pm
Originally posted by Second Chance Second Chance wrote:

Let's look at the $ equation.

A colt that wins $2m at two or three might go on to win another $1-2m as a 4yo.  That's a total of $3-4m. 

Then again, if he goes to stud at four instead he might generate $4-5m in stud fees that first season, making a total of $6-7m over the same period.

So why would you race on at 4 and risk damaging its value?



You just wouldnt race on - if its totally about $
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Aurelius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Apr 2017 at 4:15pm
Originally posted by MichaelM MichaelM wrote:

Originally posted by Aurelius Aurelius wrote:

Originally posted by MichaelM MichaelM wrote:

Originally posted by slowdown slowdown wrote:

you have put a lot of work into this. I wonder what the percentage is overall taking into account the entire entries to the book. too much work I know but it would be interesting....



They are quoting research conducted by Phil Purser. Enough said!


Even worse the data comes from Stallion Book!

All hail George Michael he really knows his stuff!



You're a peculiar one. All I asked was if you truly believed a stallion's genetics were influenced by if they had a hard racing career or not?

I assume you referring to me as George Michael is an attempt at name calling?


Give it a break Djebel if only you put as much effort into a subject as you do trawling.

Pay attention there have been some useful points made.
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