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stallions suggestions for this mare

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gorrod View Drop Down
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    Posted: 21 Jul 2017 at 4:43pm
I have a  maiden mare(in both senses of the word) to breed this season. strictly breed to race and would appreciate any  comments and suggestions .

I am What I am(NZ)  Nom du Jeu x Double Okay.She was bought and raised in NZ from a foal but seemed to lose any of her  racing ability on the flight over the Tasman.

She has a good female family and 1/2 sister to her mother produced Dal Cielo a G1 NZ 2yo.

On that Basis I have looked at Last Typhoon a son of Street Cry as DalCielo is also by a son of Street Cry.
This mating also gives  a cross of  brother and sister Tracy's Element and Towkay reasonably close up. Don't know if that is plus or not as I can't see that they have met in a pedigree before

Any alternative suggestions would be appreciated but the budget is limited to under $5k .

Thanks for any feedback

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Second Chance View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Second Chance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jul 2017 at 5:16pm
Your reasoning appears fine Gorrod.

Another that may fit the bill is Master of Design who can get a handy horse, is now with a great crew at Greta West Stud, and one you might get for about $3750- $4400.
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goldey View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote goldey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jul 2017 at 9:08pm
If you were to get either Rebel Raider or I love this city at under 5 K you could be confident of a nice outcome imho .
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rem286 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jul 2017 at 10:22pm
Have a look at Wolf Cry if you want a son of Street Cry.  He was better performed than Last Typhoon and also introduces the Centaine blood which is prominent in the pedigree of Dal Cielo.  Advertised at $4400, never dealt with the stud but I am guessing they will deal on that to get the numbers in.
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furious View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote furious Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Jul 2017 at 3:48pm
Sorry I had a look but for the price range you've done good finding Last Typhoon.

You could look for Wilkes blood as he sired in Mansingh (usually found through Vain).  Or the Rego blood which got With Respect (the Baguette sireline or even a son of Sebring).  Star Kingdom is good and Todman probably got one of the fastest of this family in Eskimo Prince (Todman is through Centaine and Strategic or Imposing).  As said above by rem 286 Centaine has that Todman/Star Kingdom, Vain/Wilkes blood. So yes any horse with that blood could be worthy of a look.

Good luck with her.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote Progold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jul 2017 at 12:30pm
I Am What I Am represents an interesting prospect.  She also allows us to reflect on the vagaries of the thoroughbred pedigree.  Clearly, given her performance, and that of a full sibling, this pedigree has not seemed to work.  Although we must remember that it is sometimes the influences within a family that don't allow them to perform on the track that can be important in their breeding success.  How often do we see half sisters to top quality racemares succeed at stud while their better performed siblings do not? 
 
Let us look simply at Dal Cielo compared to the pedigree of a Last Typhoon/I Am What I Am mating.  In the case of Dal Cielo, we see only a 6x5 cross of Hail To Reason through the pedigrees of stallions Machiavellian and Sound Reason to just highlight where they appear in the pedigree.  The inbreeding co-efficient is 1.17%.  In the case of the proposed mating, we see a very heavily inbred pedigree (COI 12.87%) largely through the stallion Towkay and the great granddam of Last Typhoon.  The similarity of the pedigrees lies again in Machiavellian/Logical Miss component, and again we see only a 6x6 cross of Hail To Reason, although we also see HTR present through Roberto, the sire of Red Ransom, the damsire of Last Typhoon.  

My point, is that there is not a lot of similarity in the two pedigrees, in spite of the presence of a couple of the same ancestors.  If we look further at Dal Cielo, his dam was the well performed Cent From Heaven who was a full sister to top galloper, Perfect World who had a very interesting pedigree with 6 generation crosses of Star Kingdom through Todman and Starquita, as well as Djebel/Perfume II, Hyperion and Solario.  We also should note that this is the same family of the famous mare, Chicquita who herself produced the more than handy horse in Eskimo Prince by Todman.  Interestingly, none of these had such close inbreeding as the proposed mating.  If we look at Alamosa, another of the more successful recent family members, we see he is by O'Reilly, a grandson of Try My Best who appears in the pedigree of Per Incanto, the sire of Dal Cielo.  Is it possible that he played more of a role in that galloper's success than Street Cry who we are assuming is the critical factor and the basis of the proposed mating?  If this is the case, then it is possibly the presence of Try My Best through his son, Last Tycoon that would be the more important factor in the proposed mating with Last Typhoon, but is this stallion the best source of that influence?

Finally, Light Of Heaven is the most heavily inbred of recent successful runners in the family, so it is possible that we could utilise this strategy with success.  The COI by the way is 10.55%.  In that pedigree we see Sir Ivor, Somethingroyal, Northern Dancer, My Babu and Princequillo as the closest duplications.  Is it a coincidence that we also see Sir Ivor in the tail female line of Per Incanto?

One final point as well.  Clearly this is a maiden mare.  I would suggest from the above, that there are a few queries as to what direction we should be headed with her as part of a breeding plan.  The wisdom of a first season stallion must be questioned, especially one that is at stud because of his pedigree and not his performance.

It might take a little while, but I will get back with a couple of ideas.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Progold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jul 2017 at 3:18pm
There is a very big query over the type of the mare, and this is a critical component when matings are considered.  This branch of the family is littered with strong sprinting influences, yet this mare boasts the stamina line of Montjeu etc.  I would suggest that was a large impact on the lack of success of the mare and her full sibling on the track.  The following are some suggestions in no particular order based on which way you are trying to head with the mare given her type.  As far as the budget goes, it would certainly be worth asking, as none are that far out of the range.  My advice would probably be to seriously consider the stallion/s from the list below that are closest to her in type.

If you are looking at trying to breed a horse that might be fairly early/speed oriented

Kaphero – Essentially a speed focussed mating and this is where a lot depends on the style of the mare.  The family has had success with 2yo’s, but its best have gotten over a bit of ground.  The mare herself did not, but had limited opportunity so type is all important.  Obviously we have the Star Kingdom influence, but also the close up presence of Centaine could be a factor as he has done well with the family in the past.  The stallion gets a lot of solid runners, and probably breed a winner with a bit of luck.  Chances of a stakes horse is pretty low though.

Squamosa – a mating that brings us more speed with two lines of Star Kingdom coming through the stallion.  Another speed mating and although early in the stallion's career, it doesn't really look like his progeny will get too far.   

Strategic Maneuver – We see Todman as one of the two lines of Star Kingdom that the stallion introduces.  Another speed mating and early in the stallion's career, so a bit will depend on your view of him.

If you are looking at one that might get a mile

Toorak Toff – A question mark over the price, but it never hurts to ask.  The Star Kingdom sire line has very few representatives and we also see another line in the stallion’s pedigree although not through Todman.  Still, an interesting mating and the progeny I suggest should get to a mile even though there is obviously a strong speed focus.  A young stallion who has hardly set the world on fire, but far from the worst.

King Of Prussia – Brings in Centaine and Sir Tristram and likely to have a bit more scope and be more versatile than a Kaphero mating.  The stallion is getting on, so it might be the last chance to try this one, and there is a good chance that the progeny should win a race or two.

One that might get over a bit of ground

Rebel Raider – Solid enough looking mating with 2 lines of Sir Tristram including Zabeel who was the sire of Lights Of Heaven.  Enough of a balance of speed and stamina to look at a potentially versatile offspring.  Brings in some further lines of Northern Dancer who is probably the key ingredient of the Try My Best factor.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jul 2017 at 3:24pm

I AM WHAT I AM (NZ)
Bay filly 2011 
Nom du Jeu
Brown 2004
Montjeu
Bay 1996
Sadler's Wells
Bay 1981
Northern Dancer
Bay 1961
Nearctic
Natalma
1954
1957
14-c
2-d
Fairy Bridge
Bay 1975
Bold Reason
Special
1968
1969
19-b
5-h
Floripedes
Bay 1985
Top Ville
Bay 1976
High Top
Sega Ville
1969
1968
11-a
8-i
Toute Cy
Bay 1979
Tennyson
Adele Toumignon
1970
1971
1-t
1-u
Prized Gem
Bay 1997
Prized
Bay or brown 1986
Kris S
Bay or brown 1977
Roberto
Sharp Queen
1969
1965
12-c
10-a
My Turbulent Miss
Bay 1976
My Dad George
Turbulent Miss
1967
1969
19-c
8-c
Vaguely Attentive
Bay 1987
Noble Bijou
Bay 1971
Vaguely Noble
Priceless Gem
1965
1963
1-d
1-s
Treaura
Chestnut 1980
Trelay
Attentive
1966
1968
2-o
5>
Double Okay
Brown 2001
Towkay
Bay 1994
Last Tycoon
Bay or brown 1983
Try My Best
Bay 1975
Northern Dancer
Sex Appeal
1961
1970
2-d
8-f
Mill Princess
Bay 1977
Mill Reef
Irish Lass
1968
1962
22-d
8-c
Princess Tracy
Bay 1981
Ahonoora
Chestnut 1975
Lorenzaccio
Helen Nichols
1965
1966
5-h
1-m
Princess Ru
Bay 1962
Princely Gift
Chiru
1951
1948
13-a
8-c
Logical Miss
Brown 1981
Sound Reason
Bay or brown 1974
Bold Reason
Bay 1968
Hail to Reason
Lalun
1958
1952
4-n
19-b
New Tune
Bay 1968
New Providence
Song of Victory
1956
1962
9-d
21-a
Ciquita
Brown 1972
Oncidium
Bay 1961
Alcide
Malcolmia
1955
1952
2-f
16-b
Starquita
Black 1959
Star Kingdom
Chicquita
1946
1946
1-g
10-a
 Ancestor duplications:Northern Dancer4m x 5m Bold Reason5f x 4m


STRIKE WHILST THE IRON IS HOT

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The richest man is not he who has the most, but he who needs the least.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gorrod Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Jul 2017 at 2:12pm
Thanks for the suggestions I will see how keen I am to breed with her in 2 months time.
My budget does not make it any easier to find a stallion that may give her a chance.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote furious Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Jul 2017 at 2:53pm
Maybe you can find a few friends who will race the foals with you make a bigger pool and try around the 10,000 mark stallions - who I'm sure you can get them cheaper.  That would give you a bigger pool of stallions to look through.  Look first at the ones who have thrown black type winners with the blood mentioned above.  You know you have a chance with them.  Don't discount your top line as any stallion with Zabeel blood would give you the Special cross which has worked very well.  Don't be disheartened as you have a mare with much better bloodlines than some we have been asked to help with here in the past.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gorrod Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Aug 2017 at 11:33am
Thanks Furious I am not too disheartened .I have received the vic stallion directory and see that Ready for Victory has Zabeel and Todman in his blood how do think he may appeal to iWI.
Also IWI has a 1/2 brother by Per Incanto(Street Cry) that has done well in Singapore.Hence the addidional interest in Last Typhoon. 
Being a heart not a head breeder are the 2 stallions above a complete no no for the mare.
Thanks again for your interest
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote goldey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Sep 2017 at 8:54am
Am interested what direction you took , Garrod , i will follow with keen interest .
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gorrod Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Oct 2017 at 12:41pm
Hi Goldey

She is in the still in the  paddock looking a bit yakish , she came from cold south west  victoria but will improve with the october sun.
Her mother has produced a 2 time winner from 10 starts to date, half sister a 4 time winner from 15  and her"aunty" Dal Cielo ,all by Per Incanto.  Iam assuming Street Cry blood is the key and will send her to Last Typhoon.
I looked at the other suggestions and they are all with as much merit as my selection but you can only pick one.
Last Typhoon is within easy reach , price range and Malcolm at the stud has been very fair to me in the past.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote furious Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Oct 2017 at 1:27pm
Sorry gorrod totally missed your above question.  Zabeel crosses very well with Montjeu blood ie the Tavistock top gallopers with this cross.  Quite a bit of interest here.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote furious Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Oct 2017 at 1:29pm
Werther, Tarzino, Tavago etc.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gorrod Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Oct 2017 at 3:45pm
Thanks furious  I will  look at him next year. Will be his 3rd year so his price should not stray outside the budget.

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