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Stallion suggestions - Duty With Honour

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Second Chance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jun 2018 at 5:26pm
Terrific stuff guys and gals.  Will have a good look at the most recent suggestions.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Second Chance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jun 2018 at 5:33pm
And whoops, thanks to the member who gave Magnus the thumbs down on condition and attitude.

Don't know who he or she is, however the third party who on-forwarded the advice suggested it came from a most reliable source.

They hope it helps in decision making & very much appreciate the acknowledgement Smile


Edited by Gay3 - 11 Jun 2018 at 8:15pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Einstein Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jun 2018 at 7:05pm
How about Highland Reel? The Galileo x Danehill works extremely well, and with century and Bletchingly in her lines, would keep some sprint in with the chance to get over distance.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Second Chance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jun 2018 at 7:13pm
Progold might agree with you mate.  Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Progold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jun 2018 at 10:24pm
Another look at the mare and possible matings and a couple of other options especially at the lower range of the market.

Fighting Sun has been doing a good job and is a solid looking mating.  On a similar line, Sports Edition is also by Northern Meteor out of a Biscay or Bletchingly line mare.

Master Of Design and Delightful Choice are two sons of Redoute's Choice who aren't doing that bad a job at a budget fee.

One new interesting prospect is a second season stallion called Swear by Redoute's Choice out of a Show A Heart mare with a second dam by Centaine.  It is certainly an interesting mating, and there would appear a lot of positives.  A little bit inbred for me, but there are enough positives in my view that it can be considered with a deal of confidence.  He certainly had plenty of talent on the track, and not convinced he was a Derby type.  I think worth a punt at the price in a mating that should probably appeal to a few on pedigree.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Second Chance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jun 2018 at 8:40am
Swear has been well and truly on the radar.

The match is quite similar to King of Prussia over the mare, but substituting Danehill 3 x 3 for for Danzig 3 x 4.  As you infer that all-male Danehill cross at 3 x 3 might be a bit close and overall isn't a particularly successful cross.  Master of Design would provide has that same cross also.

Decisions, decisions.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mr Prospector Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jun 2018 at 10:10am
Super One is apparently throwing nice foals and the pedigree would give you the I am invincible type reinforcements in a different order plus on paper he looks like he might like a Danehill influence as well . 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lulu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jun 2018 at 10:37am
Hey SC,

One not mentioned is Artie Schiller. Being back in Vic and should get in around the 10k I'd assume.

You would have a yearling ( hopefully) on the back of arguably his best bred crop of 2yos up and running, and a decent number too.
His best IMHO is Flying Artie who was out of a Rubiton mare with Star Kingdom back in the 5th remove, along with another dose of the marvel Better boy.

I see DWH has Century and a double dose of Star Kingdom through Biscay.
Just a very quick thought.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Progold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jun 2018 at 10:48am
Duplication of Danehill 3x3 by and large has not been overly successful, but then again 3x3 of any stallion has a low success rate.  Most success would seem to be from sex balanced duplications, and again that is reflected in overall duplications.  While my database is limited, what I have found of the successful Danehill all male 3x3 duplications that have been successful, it is the Biscay type cross also present.  Biscay is obviously from the Hyperion/Star Kingdom sire line, and Hyperion is found as the damsire of Nearctic, the dam of Northern Dancer.  He is also found as the sire of Alibhai, the damsire of His Majesty in the pedigree of Danehill.

We often underplay the importance of Hyperion in the pedigree of Northern Dancer, and also Danehill, so it may be that factor is a positive in the instance of a Swear mating.  Just further on some of my Hyperion theories, he was only a relatively small horse, like Northern Dancer incidentally.  Northern Dancer, like Danehill, often threw two different types.  Both could throw a big robust (almost carthorse) type, and regularly a smaller, more compact type but not an overly fine boned typed in most cases.  Often their progeny would be at both ends of the distance aptitude as well, from sprinters to middle distance/stayers.  It is that duality in type that often can be a key to duplication of a stallion in my view.  In my experience, it is often the duplications through sons that are at either end of the spectrum that often have greater success in the case of Northern Dancer.  Danzig/Nijinksy is the classic case of more of the sprinting type in Danzig vs the staying type in Nijinsky.  As an aside, dosage is a useful tool in this type of assessment.  On the negative of this mating in particular, it would seem that Redoute's Choice and West Point were relatively similar in aptitude, so this little aside probably hasn't cleared up much.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote lulu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jun 2018 at 11:01am
Originally posted by lulu lulu wrote:

Hey SC,

One not mentioned is Artie Schiller. Being back in Vic and should get in around the 10k I'd assume.

You would have a yearling ( hopefully) on the back of arguably his best bred crop of 2yos up and running, and a decent number too.
His best IMHO is Flying Artie who was out of a Rubiton mare with Star Kingdom back in the 5th remove, along with another dose of the marvel Better boy.

I see DWH has Century and a double dose of Star Kingdom through Biscay.
Just a very quick thought.


On further perusal I see that Flying Artie had a double dose of Star Kingdom as well. 5 x 6.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Einstein Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jun 2018 at 8:16pm
Originally posted by Progold Progold wrote:

Duplication of Danehill 3x3 by and large has not been overly successful, but then again 3x3 of any stallion has a low success rate.  Most success would seem to be from sex balanced duplications, and again that is reflected in overall duplications.  While my database is limited, what I have found of the successful Danehill all male 3x3 duplications that have been successful, it is the Biscay type cross also present.  Biscay is obviously from the Hyperion/Star Kingdom sire line, and Hyperion is found as the damsire of Nearctic, the dam of Northern Dancer.  He is also found as the sire of Alibhai, the damsire of His Majesty in the pedigree of Danehill.

 
If you look at Frankel, who Galileo x Danehill - same as Highland Reel, and then look at Frankels progeny, he has quite a few winners 3 x 3 of Danehill, hence why I suggested Highland Reel.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Progold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jun 2018 at 7:53pm
I honestly do not think that Frankel is an accurate comparison to any other stallion.  His book of mares was simply remarkable.  Nevertheless, of his stakes horses to date, Danehill Dancer is the only Danehill stallion that I can find at first glance so it is perhaps not a great advertisement for a Danehill duplication.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Einstein Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jun 2018 at 1:32am
Apologies, it is Danzig that Coolmore suggest, more so than Danehill himself.
 
An extra line of DANZIG is proving no problem for these sons of Danehill mares. Teofilo has sired Irish classic winners from daughters of SINNDAR and GRAND LODGE, and his successful sire son Havana Gold is out of a grand-daughter of GREEN DESERT. Teofilo also has Group winners out of daughters of GREEN DESERT, SHAADI and ZIETEN as well as several good winners out of mares by ANABAA. Frankel’s first crop contains stakes winners out of daughters of INVINCIBLE SPIRIT, OASIS DREAM and DANEHILL DANCER. Teofilo also has very useful winners inbred 3x3 to DANEHILL.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Progold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jun 2018 at 9:23am
A lot of really good people at Coolmore, but with respect, I would urge caution when taking pedigree advice from any stud. 

In the case of the Danzig duplication in Frankel's progeny, we see that this comes with further lines of Northern Dancer.  Going back to my original post, we can reflect upon the different nature of ND sons with Danzig and Sadler's Wells being the two sons in Frankel's pedigree.  Perhaps we are building on the ND influence rather than the Danzig duplication.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Progold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jun 2018 at 11:04am
Originally posted by linghi11 linghi11 wrote:

Originally posted by Progold Progold wrote:

Probably a bit expensive, but Highland Reel offers a different mating but one with plenty of positives.  The added advantage is that he is likely to be the best racehorse standing in Victoria and perhaps Australia.

Elvis and Haradasun’s moderate success don’t deter you? What sort of mares do you think are his best bet?
My apologies for not commenting further on this question, but it was one that was always going to take a bit of time.  It might also be more appropriate for this to be moved to the Stallions section.

Firstly, the performance of Elvstroem and Haradasun bear little importance on the performance of Highland Reel at stud.  Clearly he is a very different prospect although he hails from the same family.  Importantly, both Haradasun and Elvstroem have shown they can produce a good horse.  I believe that if a stallion can do that, it is often the breeders rather than the stallion that are more responsible for the failures. In the case of Elvstroem, it was often the largely outcross pedigree that resulted in his best progeny.  Having said that, Hucklebuck, clearly his best son saw a number of lines of ND together with Biscay although nothing closer than 4x5.  This is rather remarkable when we see that Elvstroem himself had no inbreeding within five generations, and many could argue that this lack of inbreeding was going to impact negatively on his impact as a stallion.

But I digress from the point which is Highland Reel.  One of the big plusses of course is just how good a racehorse he was, especially when we consider that Victoria often gets the second level of performers compared with NSW.  Highland Reel of course has far more inbreeding than Elvstroem, and this could be of benefit.  However, we do see a bit of this is Northern Dancer in the forms of Sadler's Wells/Galileo and Danzig/Danehill.  It will be difficult to find a lot of outcross pedigrees for Highland Reel so we must consider how best to utilise these ND lines.  Most likely we need to stay away from additional lines of Sadler's Wells and Danehill so this will be quite difficult, but I would be looking at pushing this further back if necessary.  Daughters or granddaughters of Encosta De Lago could be considered but again, a little query for me over duplicating Fairy Bridge too often.  

In the case of a possible mating with Duty With Honour, we see a close duplication of Danehill.  Is this ideal?  Perhaps it is, because Galileo clearly has not had the success here as overseas.  Possibly we need to breed away from the Sadler's Wells line, and maybe this is the best way.  Personally, it is a more risky strategy, although one that will be recommended in certain cases, and in this instance, the mare has had success with close inbreeding so this may be one of those cases.  The other positive here is that Highland Reel obviously owed much to his strong colonial line, and breeding to that Star Kingdom/Bletchingly/Biscay/Marscay line could be a key locally.  Again Duty With Honour ticks this box, so another positive in the mating.  By and large though I would generally suggest breeding away from Danehill line mares in most cases.

Unlike Elvstroem and Haradasun, Highland Reel pushes the more extreme stamina influence of Zamazaan further back in the pedigree and this is not a bad thing in the case of most local stallions.  Grandsons of Zabeel, and even great grandsons are having a bigger impact than his sons as an example.  Along with this, pushing Sadler's Wells influence a little back in the sire line is a likely positive under local conditions.

I think Highland Reel will take some planning when utilising, but he had a deal of speed, so it is not out and out speed lines that are required.  I would not be concerned with ND line stallions but would suggest that some speed lines need to be in the pedigree relatively close up.  In general though, I would probably favour mares from families that have produced plenty of the miler types rather than the real early 2yo type families.  By and large I would probably baulk a little as well with close up stamina lines.  Highland Reel isn't going to regularly produce early 2yo's, so the Australian market will always struggle a little with him, but given good opportunity, I think he will certainly produce some quality runners.

A few stallions whose daughters/grandaughters could work include Mossman, Iglesia/Written Tycoon, Charge Forward, More Than Ready, Bel Esprit etc.  The trick is finding these sort of lines without close up Danehill lines.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lulu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jun 2018 at 4:13pm
Another stallion who matches beautifully is Exosphere. His first foals sold well with good reports and I believe when I last spoke with them at least, that you would just sneak into your price range.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lulu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jun 2018 at 4:17pm

Sorry I thought your max was 15. I see it is 14. You would need 15 + for Exosphere.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mumtaz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jun 2018 at 5:35pm
I heard from a friend yesterday that Exosphere (and his sire) is booked out.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Second Chance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jun 2018 at 6:23pm
Yes Exosphere comes up ok, though I'm happy if he's fully booked as it costs a fortune to send a mare from Vic to the Hunter for any length of time.

Plus of course Darley is great at selling clients semen, but pretty useless when selling any resultant foal.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lulu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jun 2018 at 6:24pm
Ok Mumtaz. Not surprised there I suppose.
My mail was a few weeks old which is a long time these days.
On that note, I have never known so many stallions to be booked out so soon before.
Makes a bit of a mockery of the stallion inspection open days. For many of them anyway!
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote acacia alba Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jun 2018 at 11:15pm
Got a friend who bought a mare for 3 thousand $$ ,,,sent her to Exosphere and got a cracking colt , who just sold for $160 thousand,,,,he is over the moon,,,but,,the colt was black, and the chinese love black horses, and China Horse Club bought him.   Some times you can get lucky.  Big smile
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