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Stallion Suggestion - The Addiction Returns

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oldflight View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote oldflight Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Stallion Suggestion - The Addiction Returns
    Posted: 16 Sep 2018 at 7:22pm

Twenty years ago: I raced a horse on lease with a mate, she was skinny and had ran a provincial third in 13 starts which included two failed to finish (saddle slipped pulled up) before we got her. We took her home put her in a paddock re-educated her, fed her up, took all of the gear off her, let her jump and crap herself at rabbits and kangaroos while doing slow work in the bush behind our farm, swam her at the beach, then gave her to a mate two farms up the road to train after winning four in town and finishing a ½ head behind Rogan Josh, the Leaser when broke and we could not afford to buy her back at the sale.

Yes our own fault not having option to purchase in lease. So bugger racing ill never go back.

Ten years ago: A bloke I was working with pestered me for a year lets race a horse together, no mate was the answer for a year, so eventually I succumbed went to the yearling sale picked a cheap one out who was well built, walked AMAZING, average page,  got a few mates into her and insisted my mate was the Manager (so he knew the dramas) she was handy ran three placings in four Two Year Old Starts and wrenched a fetlock on pulling up after running third, one full year off, much massage, swimming, beach, LSD she got back to the track winning six and placing nine other times in thirty starts, as old mate was manager she went to two drop dead sires and just as I was about to regain control of her she was struck by lightning at the Hill Billy Stud she was at.

So again bugger racing and breeding I’ll never go back.

Last week The bride mentioned (with only the force she can) Jesus you are working more hours now than ten years ago, you don’t even follow the races anymore and you are basically a miserable old P!@k.

So go and buy a horse and get it out of your system for another ten years.

So as I was flying out of Tulla, I raced to the Oakland Sales last week with the firm intention of assessing weanlings and buying something with a nice skeleton that could be matured into a racehorse.

WRONG as I arrived I saw a Mare so poorly presented I later fronted the consignor whom was only recouping funds and made an idiot of myself telling them about equine welfare.

So I am now the proud owner ($500) of Tahitian Gem (NZ) (lot8) whom has only had two to the track for two winners, one has won $250K in Singapore and the other has won six at the picnics, ok a bit above picnics but not much. Vet checked she can carry, wormed and fed, feet done, depending on if she can come up this year (no push she will tell us) if not next year my question is what to put her too? Bearing in mind she is 15H to 15.1H and I have no idea of the size of the two foals.

I would love to double cross back to Mill Reef as her Second Dam is a full sister to Shirley Heights, but I am no expert and have been out of the game for to long to have any valid option.

My goal would be to bred a miler or a ten furlong horse to race ourselves. We have no desire or need to race at two and all education and work would of cause be dictated to by the progress of the growth of the resulting foal.

Any thoughts greatly appreciated

 

Cheers and Thanks in advance

OLDFLIGHT

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Second Chance View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Second Chance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Sep 2018 at 8:44pm
Well you're certainly a glutton for punishment oldflight. Wink

If you want a cross of Mill Reef and a mating that appears to have additional benefits, you surely couldn't do much better than Glass Harmonium which offers a lot from a line breeding perspective including a Sadler's Wells cross, and was a multiple Group winner around 2000m and had Group performances at 1400m and 1600m.

He's not at all commercial, but that said your mare is arguably similar.  So possibly more pain, however genetically the match gives you half a chance to breed and race. 

You could probably secure a nomination for around $3,300.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Glencoe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Sep 2018 at 8:54pm
While I was having a quick look S.C. beat me to Glass Harmonium. Some might also consider Akeed M @ $7K & Lucas C for much less
I'll have a proper look tomorrow night
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Second Chance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Sep 2018 at 9:00pm
Couldn't disagree with Glencoe either. Thumbs Up

So there's already some viable choices available.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote furious Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Sep 2018 at 9:11pm
Gee how do you find them.  THis is a wonderful family with so many ways to go.  Same female line as Winx's sire Street Cry and his close relative Shamardal.  Both have representatives at stud in Victoria.  

Then you can look at the sire lines which produced these two and also Divine Proportions and Whipper two G1 winners closer to your mare.  They are all Mr Prospector line.  So you can look at that sireline or sires out of Mr Prospector line mares etc.

Then you have Night Shift from the same female line as Encosta de Lago.  Now crossing to Encosta line stallions like Manhattan Rain or even stallions out of Encosta mares would also mean Sadler's Wells and his full brother Fairy King and a cross of Fairy Bridge as against her dam Special cross which is also in Divine Proportions and Whipper. There are quite a few in the different price ranges available. 

THe cross to Special can be found using the Nureyev blood in Zabeel.  So that opens up Reset,Rebel Raider or Good Journey (is he still alive?).  Montjeu son Tavistock has cross well with Zabeel and that is the same cross.

One that is dearer but of interest would be Artie Schiller with his line of El Prado (same 1-l line as your female line).

A cheaper on with different lines is Love Conquers All with the 1-l Speak John sireline and Salieri (sire of Markham (SA Derby) from your female line.  He looks very different type of pedigree for the mare to cross to though.

This 1-l line has also produced Spirit of Boom in Australia so you can get anything from pure speed to a middle distance Derby type.  

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Progold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Sep 2018 at 12:40am
A very interesting family which is that of lat year's Melbourne Cup winner, Johannes Vermeer.  It has also had some local success with Group winners like Fubu.  It may be important that these two both saw Last Tycoon prominent in their pedigrees, and of course Last Tycoon has Mill Reef as his damsire.  The sire of the mare though is Montjeu, an important stallion who produced a lot of stakes winners, but many struggled in Australia being largely the more dour type of Sadler's Wells types.  Based on that, we could well run a risk of reinforcing those influences and breeding something that isn't really suited to local racing.

I keep coming back to Onemorenomore, a stallion that has had his chances and has underperformed, but still has shown he is capable of producing some decent runners.  Enough in the mating to suggest that the offspring should be a solid racing prospect, and especially interesting as we see Last Tycoon as his damsire so most likely the best source of Mill Reef that we will find.

A very different mating is that with Reset.  With some uncertainty about the breeding health of the mare, fertility could be an issue, and although a bit more expensive, a wonderful stallion who produces quality runners time and again.

Danerich could also be considered again, as could his best progeny, Lord Of The Sky, but neither really have any real wow factor in the matings to me, but they do impart some speed into the pedigree.

Honorius is a new stallion who covered only 21 mares in his first season but the mating is one that I am surprised those who love linebreeding haven't immediately proposed.  His sire is Holy Roman Emperor who was the damsire of Johannes Vermeer, and a descendant of Ciboulette who is the dam of Tahitian Gem's damsire, Night Shift.  The pedigree of Honorius also includes Shirley Heights, the full sibling to the mare's 2nd dam.  Probably a bit too much for me.

One more of interest, if you like unproven stallions, is National Defense, a Champion French 2yo winner over a mile, and standing at Sun Stud for what seems a fairly moderate price of $11000.  His pedigree certainly doesn't look like what we would call a 2yo pedigree, apart from being by Invincible Spirit who can obviously impart speed into his progeny.  It looks a well balanced pedigree to me, but all first season stallions are a gamble, but this mating looks to be one that could produce a decent runner.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote oldflight Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Sep 2018 at 2:00am
Wow its good to be back,
Thanks folks please keep them coming, yes this is completely bred to race so no commercial value of resultant foal needs to be taken into account.
I think a couple of you folk were on the Vinery Forum Years ago if anybody remembers that, then K Manning had one up and running, long ago,
I only mentioned the Mill Reef component because of the link to Shirley Heights in the pedigree and years ago I was a Farm Foreman and handled Marooned in WA (gee he was tough and his progeny were the same) so more from heart than head.  

Cheers again for the kick off and I will keep you posted on how we go
Race Safe Oldflight
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote goldey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Sep 2018 at 9:39pm
Depending on the physical attributes of the mare, maybe if you are willing to take a risk, two untested by progeny on the track, both Crackerjack King and Cluster both have some nice lines to work with.
Jackalberry was a great loss to the NZ breeding industry , nothing wrong in the way he was heading. So, Crackerjack King could be worth a risk, but I would certainly check as many of his foals as you can find, normally the mail from within the industry on these stallions is pretty spot on. Both won't over extend your budget either.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote goldey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Sep 2018 at 10:17pm
Sorry about the excessive use of both 😂
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gay3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Sep 2018 at 10:24pm
How could you not use Glass Harmonium?
You have the full sister to Shirley Heights & no less than 5 instances of that wonderful mare Lalun in 7 gens.
He has a few handy ones including a filly with Moroney who they have an opinion of.
Great spot 2nd Chance, I love this match Heart

Click image then Zoom for clarity




Edited by Gay3 - 17 Sep 2018 at 10:25pm
Experience is something you gain a few minutes after you could have used it!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gay3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Sep 2018 at 9:23pm
WOW Shocked

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sister Dot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Sep 2018 at 11:51pm
With the mare being 15hh, It just about wipes out any stallion under 16hh? I’m thinking height and conformation are going to be important. One of the stallions mentioned has a rep for producing small stock. A pic of the mare would be good, though I know from experience it’s a big ask 😊🐴
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote StormSiren Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 2018 at 6:24pm
Without knowing your budget and preferences for location, not the cheapest option, but I'll throw Ribchester in the mix for you to consider..

Gives you Shirley Heights and another cross of Mill Reef through Last Tycoon, while having a double cross of Nureyev will appeal to the Sadler's Wells in her...

Brilliant miler..
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Ticino Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 2018 at 9:26pm
Hello,
even I'm living on the "other site of the world". I'm so free to swuggest some mating .
 
I was a bit wondering, why Pentire wasn't mentioned yet. Well, he was bred in AUS/NZ (not quite sure the exact contry). On paper the mating looks good.
Pentire -Tahitian Gem
4x4  Hardiemma or 2x3 Gull Nook/Um Lardaff  3/4 relatives, 5x6x6 Never Bend/Bold Reason
Yes , I know he is deceased now, maybe he has a son at Stud.
 
A Germanbred Sire standinhg in AUS:
Lucas Cranach-Tahitian Gem
3x5 Shirley Hights/Um Lardaff, 4x5x5 ND
 
Here are som more "suggestions", but probably not possible, on the other hand, with so many Horses imported to AUS there is at least a small Chance, they will find the way "Down Under".
 
Konigstiger-Tahitian Gem
3x3 Gull Nook/Um Lardaff 3/4 rel. or 4x5 Hardiemma, 3x4 Sadlers Wells 
(sadly deceased)
 
Adlerflug-Tahitian Gem
3x4 Shirley Heights/Um Lardaff FB/FS, 3x3 Sadlers Wells, 4x4x5 Mill Reef, 4x4x4x5 ND
 
Dashing Blade-Tahitian Gem
3x3 Shirley Heights/Um Lardaff FB/FS, dam 4x4 ND
 
Lord of England (son of Dashing Blade)-Tahitian Gem
3x4 Shirley Heights/Um Lardaff, dam 4x4 ND
 
Reliable Man-Tahitian Gem
3x4 Shirley Heights/Um Lardaff FB/FS, 3x3 Sadlers Wells4x4x4 ND
 
Dubawi-Tahitian Gem
3x4 Shirley Heights/Um Lardaff FB/FS, 4x5x5 ND
 
Hope I could give some clues.
 
regards, Ticino
 
 
 
 
 
Lucas Cranach
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Ticino Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 2018 at 9:38pm
Hello,
those you have read my threads "3 year old raing and 2 year old racing in Germany" have noted at the Moment fopllowing horses with SH and his relatives racing in my homecountry.
 
Daily Delight (Relaibkle man-Dasina by Konigstiger)
3x5 Sadlers Wells, 4x4      3/4 rel. Shirley heights/Gull Nook
2 year old
 
Asifa (Lord of England-Antarctica by Acatenango
4x4 Shirley Heights, 4x4 Literat, 5x5 Reliance
2 year old
 
Valajani (by Jukebox Jury, 3 yea<r old), his dam Ventiane (by Konigstiger) is bred3x3 Shirley Heights/Gull Nook 3x4 rel., 4x4 Mill Reef, 3x5 Sadlers Wells
He has a FB named Villardo, according my info, he was sent to AUS. Interestingly 'Ventiane' has a yet unraced 2 year old filly named Vialina (Lord of England-Ventiane by Konigstiger) bred 4x4x4 Shirley Heights/Gull Nook 3/4 rel.
 
regards, Ticino
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote goldey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 2018 at 11:16pm
Xtravegent, ticino.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote oldflight Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Sep 2018 at 5:45pm
Cheers All,
Much to think about,
A couple of Financial and geography guidelines.
Less than $15k, East Coast no issue with state.

Some basic questions from the position of ignorance.
I have noticed that many Stakes Winners from the Family have a large touch of Mr P in it am I missing something or reading to much in to this?

Sister Dot: Which one mentioned is producing smaller stock I have an idea and have PM'ed you if you are uncomfortable mentioning it here.

Ticino:Cheers for going above and beyond from Germany love it

I have spoken to Goldin Farm and they have offered a good deal to Akeed M, Vinery have offered an amassing deal to Casino Prince, Bluegum yet to call back on GH, all that said nothing has been decided and I am very much still interested in any opinions and am very grateful for the interest.

PS the Bride is happy I have an occasional smile again, plus an interest outside of work.
 
Cheers to all and please keep the suggestions coming
Ciao Oldflight


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Glencoe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Sep 2018 at 11:59pm
That's why I also gave Akeed M  & Lucas C as suggestions
 
Their Mr P influence might just pick up on Djezima thru Lalun & there is also 3 or 4 lines of the 23 family somewhere in T Gems pedigree
 
In reproducing Hardiemma be aware that the mare was from a fairly insignificant family until SH came along.  According to Tony Morris Mill Reef covered 39 mares that year. If he had a restricted book of 38 there may not be a Shirley H ( refer thoroughbred STALLIONS by Tony Morris page 214)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Glencoe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Sep 2018 at 12:45am
If I owned TG, Casino Prince if nearby would be at the top of  my list
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote furious Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Sep 2018 at 9:46am
You have to remember Street Cry is from the female line and also by the Mr Prospector line.  As as the two very good G1 horses Divine Proportions (by Kingmambo) and Whipper (by Miesque's Son).

But as I said before you have plenty of options with a lot of good blood to cross to and play around with.  The 1 family can cross to most lines which opens up the rest of the pedigree to find good matches also.

The line has G1 winners to the Galileo (Johannes Vermeer), Be My Guest (Pentire), Tiger Hill (Konigstiger) so it doesn't mind Northern Dancer lines either.

Plenty of good ideas above and whoever though of Akeed Mofeed did a good job.  Interesting cross on paper.  Nothing wrong with Casino Prince either and yes would be interesting going to a son of Pentire so even Germany got in on the act.

As I said above you found one which offers you a lovely chance to breed not only a winner but a black type winner for $500!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote furious Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Sep 2018 at 10:10am
Now as an addition.  You may note that Akeed Mofeed is a 13b female line horse.  He decends from Lady Sarah (dam of Bilberry Yorkshire Oaks) the 1/2 sister to Mendicant dam of Beadsman (English Derby).  Mendicant is the tail female of Mr Prospector (13c) etc.  Then you have the 13a female line of So You Think, She Will Reign, Catchy, Impending etc.  They all decend from Lancashire Witch and her daughter Juliet who was a 3/4 sister in blood to Beadsman being by Touchstone.

These lines all act the same and love the 1 family (your female line High Chaparral, Street Cry, Sharmadal, Speak John and many more) and the 5 family (Sadler's Wells/Fairy King etc).


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote furious Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Sep 2018 at 10:57am
So looking at other lines of 1-l (decend from Paraffin dam of Illuminata dam of Chelandry), 1-m (decend from Footlight (daughter to Paraffin and 1/2 to Illuminata) and 1-n (decend from Chelandry).

First the 1-l as that is your line.  King's High (Australian Guineas, VRC Derby etc) was by Full on Aces (13a female line of Juliet and in bred to Djebel a son of Tourbillon (13c family of Mr Prospector).  An earlier on Homer (AJC Derby) was a son of Iliad (2-o) who's dam was a daughter of Cicero (1-l) so he was inbred to Illuminata (1-l) and Quiver (3e) and Cyllen 9e.

The 1-m line is that of Rory's Jester.  His first five generations is a total outcross (so much for inbreeding to get speed!)  But his dam is a daughter of Roan Rocket (13c) and his is by Crown Jester 13e from a daughter of Wilkes (13c).  Plenty of the 3 family and a bit of 1 crop up here also.

Another stallion from this line came from France.  Kenmare is inbred to Mumtaz Begum (9c) but you find Tourbillon (13c), Foxhunter 1-l etc

One of his best her was Keltrice who had his dam by Vain (Wilkes 13c) who is a line which has Heroic (1n) blood, St Magnus 13 through Matrice (another stallion with Heroic deep in his pedigree) etc. etc.

I'm out now will continue later.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote StormSiren Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Sep 2018 at 11:03am
Will also throw another one in the mix that looks interesting... Spieth. Advertised at $16.5k but wouldn't be surprised if you were able to get him a little cheaper...

Sex balanced duplications of Ciboulette and Special, another line of Mill Reef, another duplication to Lalun. Sprinter, but as your mare seemed to be doing most of her work over the 2000m mark may help with a turn of foot..

SPIETH/TAHITIAN GEM DP = 2-0-11-7-0 (20) DI = 0.60   CD = -0.15; GSV = 53.38
SPIETH (NZ)
ch. 2012 
18-5-4-0
A$626,600
THORN PARK (AUS)
ch. 1999 
22-9-2-2
A$1,535,725
SPINNING WORLD (USA)
ch. 1993 
14-8-3-1
$1,734,477
NUREYEV (USA)
b. 1977 [C]
3-2-0-0
$42,522
NORTHERN DANCER (CAN)
b. 1961 [BC]
 NEARCTIC (CAN)br. 195414-c
NATALMA (USA)* b. 19572-d
SPECIAL (USA)*
b. 1969
 FORLI (ARG)ch. 1963 [C]3-b
THONG (USA)*b. 19645-h
IMPERFECT CIRCLE (USA)
dkb/br. 1988 
5-2-2-0
$102,550
RIVERMAN (USA)
br. 1969 [IC]
NEVER BEND (USA) br. 1960 [BI]19-b
RIVER LADY (USA)b. 196310-a
AVIANCE (IRE)*
ch. 1982
NORTHFIELDS (USA)ch. 19684-r
MINNIE HAUK (USA)b. 19758-f
JOY (AUS)
b. 1993 
Unraced
BLUEBIRD (USA)
b. 1984 
9-4-1-2
$166,214
STORM BIRD (CAN)
b. 1978
NORTHERN DANCER (CAN) b. 1961 [BC]2-d
SOUTH OCEAN (CAN)*b. 19674-j
IVORY DAWN (USA)
b. 1978
SIR IVOR (USA) b. 1965 [IC]8-g
DUSKY EVENING (USA)b. 19679-b
CHRISTMAS SPIRIT (AUS)
b. 1986 
Unraced
BLETCHINGLY (AUS)
br. 1970
BISCAY (AUS)ch. 19652-o
COOGEE (GB)b. 19597-a
JOY AND FUN (AUS)
b. 1978
SHOWDOWN (GB)ch. 19616-b
DENISES JOY (AUS)b. 197216-c
STELLA LIVIA (GB)
ch. 2004 
1-0-0-0
€ 0 in Fr
TITUS LIVIUS (FR)
ch. 1993 
19-3-3-5
£184,001
MACHIAVELLIAN (USA)
br. 1987 
7-4-1-0
$357,023
MR. PROSPECTOR (USA)
b. 1970 [BC]
RAISE A NATIVE (USA)ch. 1961 8-f
GOLD DIGGER (USA)*b. 196213-c
COUP DE FOLIE (USA)*
b. 1982
HALO (USA)blk. 1969 [BC]2-d
RAISE THE STANDARD (CAN)*b. 19782-d
PARTY DOLL (GB)
ch. 1986 
12-4-1-0
£47,068 in FR
BE MY GUEST (USA)
ch. 1974
NORTHERN DANCER (CAN) b. 1961 [BC]2-d
WHAT A TREAT (USA)b. 19628-c
MIDNIGHT LADY (FR)
b. 1975
MILL REEF (USA) b. 1968 [CS]22-d
MIA POLA (FR)gr. 196616-c
SOMBREFFE (GB)
b. 1992 
5-1-2-0
£6,376
POLISH PRECEDENT (USA)
b. 1986 
9-7-1-1
$504,488
DANZIG (USA)
b. 1977 [IC]
NORTHERN DANCER (CAN) b. 1961 [BC]2-d
PAS DE NOM (USA)br. 19687-a
PAST EXAMPLE (USA)
ch. 1976
BUCKPASSER (USA)b. 1963 [C]1-x
BOLD EXAMPLE (USA)*b. 19698-h
SOMFAS (USA)
dkb/br. 1978 
17-4-2-3
$37,330
WHAT A PLEASURE (USA)
ch. 1965
BOLD RULER (USA)dkb/br. 1954 [BI]8-d
GREY FLIGHT (USA)*gr. 19455-f
CIBOULETTE (CAN)*
b. 1961
 CHOP CHOP (USA)b. 19402-m
WINDY ANSWER (CAN)b. 19554-g
TAHITIAN GEM (NZ)
b. 2002 
MONTJEU (IRE)
b. 1996 [CS]
16-11-2-0
$3,848,514
SADLERS WELLS (USA)
b. 1981 [CS]
11-6-4-0
$663,423
NORTHERN DANCER (CAN)
b. 1961 [BC]
18-14-2-2
$580,806
 NEARCTIC (CAN)
br. 1954
NEARCO (ITY) br. 1935 [BC]4-r
LADY ANGELA (GB)ch. 194414-c
NATALMA (USA)*
b. 1957
 NATIVE DANCER (USA) gr. 1950 [IC]5-f
ALMAHMOUD (USA)*ch. 19472-d
FAIRY BRIDGE (USA)*
b. 1975 
2-2-0-0
$4,781
BOLD REASON (USA)
b. 1968
HAIL TO REASON (USA) br. 1958 [C]4-n
LALUN (USA)* b. 195219-b
SPECIAL (USA)*
b. 1969
 FORLI (ARG)ch. 1963 [C]3-b
THONG (USA)*b. 19645-h
FLORIPEDES (FR)
b. 1985 
5-2-1-2
$95,930
TOP VILLE (IRE)
br. 1976 
10-6-1-1
$423,613
HIGH TOP (IRE)
b. 1969 [C]
DERRING-DO (GB)b. 196121-a
CAMENAE (GB)b. 196111-a
SEGA VILLE (FR)
b. 1968
CHARLOTTESVILLE (GB)b. 195714-a
LA SEGA (FR)b. 19598-i
TOUTE CY (FR)
b. 1979 
7-0-1-1
$6,665
TENNYSON (FR)
b. 1970
VAL DE LOIR (FR)b. 19595-h
TIDRA (FR)b. 19641-t
ADELE TOUMIGNON (IRE)
gr. 1971
ZEDDAAN (GB)gr. 196511-g
ALVORADA (FR)ch. 19601-u
LITTLE GEM (GB)
b. 1996 
8-1-1-1
$18,164
NIGHT SHIFT (USA)
b. 1980 
7-1-0-2
$9,282
NORTHERN DANCER (CAN)
b. 1961 [BC]
18-14-2-2
$580,806
 NEARCTIC (CAN)
br. 1954
NEARCO (ITY) br. 1935 [BC]4-r
LADY ANGELA (GB)ch. 194414-c
NATALMA (USA)*
b. 1957
 NATIVE DANCER (USA) gr. 1950 [IC]5-f
ALMAHMOUD (USA)*ch. 19472-d
CIBOULETTE (CAN)*
b. 1961 
33-14-3-5
$54,131
 CHOP CHOP (USA)
b. 1940
FLARES (USA)b. 193317-b
SCEPTICAL (GB)b. 19222-m
WINDY ANSWER (CAN)
b. 1955
WINDFIELDS (CAN)br. 194311-c
REPLY (CAN)b. 19514-g
UM LARDAFF (IRE)
b. 1986 
5-2-0-0
$8,094 (in Fr)
MILL REEF (USA)
b. 1968 [CS]
14-12-2-0
$764,412
 NEVER BEND (USA)
br. 1960 [BI]
 NASRULLAH (GB) b. 1940 9-c
LALUN (USA)* b. 195219-b
MILAN MILL (USA)*
b. 1962
PRINCEQUILLO (IRE)b. 1940 [IS]1-b
VIRGINIA WATER (USA)gr. 195322-d
HARDIEMMA (GB)
b. 1969 
14-2-4-0
$5,176
HARDICANUTE (GB)
blk. 1962
HARD RIDDEN (GB)b. 195516
HARVEST MAID (GB)b. 19493-j
GRAND CROSS (GB)
b. 1952
GRANDMASTER (IRE)b. 19421-k
BLUE CROSS (GB)b. 19461-l
Conduit Mare Profile = 8-9-0-7-5   Speed = 17   Stamina = 12   Index = 1.47   Triads = 17-16-12
Lost in the magical world of racing. Storm Siren & Speed Hero.
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Champion
Champion


Joined: 19 Feb 2007
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Points: 13545
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote furious Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Sep 2018 at 7:17pm
The 1-n line include Heroic, Zeditave, High Chaparral, Merchant Navy, I am Invincible, Teofilo, Never Say Die, Clarion etc.  This is a prolific line to find great sires and broodmares.

When you consider the ability of Champion Sires or Champions in a bracket of our Sires lists you have Street Cry  1-l with his champion daughter Winx a mix of the 5 family (a different branch to the 5h of Sadler's Wells and his grandam Special).  But Win is also out of an Al Akbar mare and Al Akbar is from the Speak John 1-l sireline.  Add in Sovereign Edition from the 13a family and plenty of other 1 lines and we find lots to create a great galloper.  But don't ask me where Winx came from.  She gallops differently to any horse I've ever watched!

Whobegotyou was another pretty good AUstralian by Street Cry.  He is from the 14c female line with his dam by Carnegie (son od Sadler's Wells 5h), his second dam Kris by Sharpen Up 5i and his third dam by Mr Prospector 13c.

High Chaparral 1-n has So You Think as his best.  So You Think is from the 13a female line of Juliet and yes you also have Darshaan from the 13c family of Mr Prospector and Shirley Heights from your 1-l family.  NOthing wrong with abit of 22 which is there in Mill Reef and there is the 5 family through Native Dancer and Sharpen Up to add to the Sadler's Well's 5h family. 

Now the another great HIgh Chaparral is Shoot Out who is from the 14c female line.  But she is by Pentire 1-l and inbred to Mill Reef 22d.  You already have the three lines of 5 in High Chaparral and the 13c or Darshaan.  He is inbred to the mare Hardiemma 1-l.

Nothing wrong with Dundeel also.  He is from the 22b female line of Eulogy (great line).  His dam sire Zabeel has Special to cross to the Special in Sadler's Wells.  Then the second dam is by Fiesta Star 1-n who himself has Wilkes 13c as the sire of his dam.  There is also another 5h line through Val de Loir.

I am Invincible 1-n is fairly young but has built up an enviable record already.  One of his fastest is Viddora from the 16c female line.  Her second dam is by Zeditave 1-n and you have the 5h Nureyev blood through Zabeel sire of the damsire Colombia.

Or you have Hellbent from the 1-o female line.  He has Arch Sculptor as the sire of his third dam to add to his own 1 family female line (that of Pago Pago).

Voodoo Lad who seems to improve every year has a 13b female line with Salieri as the sire of his 2nd dam and he is out of a Speak John 1-l mare.  Two lines of 5 through Native Dancer and What a Pleasure.

Or you can look at Spirit of Boom who is from your 1-l female line and was by Sequalo from the 1-m line.  Sequalo also had Thatching from that 5h family and he's by Thatch 5h also to cross to the Thatch 5h in the bottom as the sire of the 4th dam.  The 3rd dam is by Without Fear a son of Baldric 13c.

It kind of goes on and on.  Look at the your three year olds from the 13a female line of Juliet this season.  Brutal is by O'Reilly 13b.  His dam is by Golan 5h by Spectrum 1l and Golan also has Shirley Heights 1-l.  Then the 2nd dam is by Straussbrook who has yet another 5h line in George Spelvin.

The second stakes winner from this line is Danawi a son of G1 winner Secret Admirer by Dubawi from the 9e female line with a mix of 13c (Mr Prospector) and 1-l Shirley Heights.  Next dam is by Secret Savings a son of Seeking the Gold 5c by Mr Prospector 13c.  Exceed and Excel then adds Lomond 13c.




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Joined: 19 Jun 2011
Location: Mt. Gambier S.A
Status: Offline
Points: 764
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Glencoe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Sep 2018 at 1:48am
Furious if you follow your line of reasoning thru on female lines with 13 I think a lot of the Invincible Spirit sireline sires in Europe pick up ( & then perhaps also the related allegiances) but I have only had a cursory look
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Champion


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Points: 13545
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote furious Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Sep 2018 at 10:30am
Invincible Spirit certainly works with 1-n if I am Invincible is any evidence.  It's always good to look and see which stallions with what mixes have worked as we know not all the genes can come through and some might be suspect!  The blood is not hard to find but some have more lines than others with a mix of the other lines 13, 5, 22, 3 and even if less of those lines some 14 and 2.  I find 9 and 16 (like 1) mix with everything.  2 loves 1 but 2n loves more of the same also.  It's weird but the patterns keep cropping up in the stakes pedigrees I've been doing for 40+ years now.  Mind you please don't expect miracles if the broodmare line is pretty weak.  Then an upgrade is probably all you can expect.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote furious Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Sep 2018 at 10:30am
Oh I forgot 6 works with lots of different branches also.
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Weanling


Joined: 03 Jan 2010
Location: NSW
Status: Offline
Points: 65
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldflight Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Sep 2018 at 8:59pm
Hi Folks,
Thanks for all of the input
I finally spoke to Chris at Blue Gum after leaving messages and ringing for over three business days
no interest and they had received the pedigree (and of cause I see their point $500 mare)
So the upshot is
Glass Harmonium and Casino Prince SAME price and Akeem M at $2k more, Newhaven no movement on Xtravegent
I would love to go to a son of Street Cry but the only one that looks good is to much for my budget and the rest look very average.
So
Second Chance,Furious, Glencoe, ProGold Gay3, Goldey, SisterDot, Storm Siren and a Big Shout to Germany Ticino.
Thanks so much please keep them coming
I still have no real preference and will be guided by the collective

So Cheers again
Safe racing OldFlight
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Joined: 19 Feb 2007
Location: Ballarat
Status: Offline
Points: 31985
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gay3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Sep 2018 at 10:25pm
Well your gut feeling has served you well thus far, so I suggest disregarding a couple of k here or there on stud fees, do due diligence on mare care for each prospective stud or walk on facility & best of luck on the result Big smile
Experience is something you gain a few minutes after you could have used it!
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Joined: 20 Feb 2007
Location: Australia
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Points: 2932
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Progold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Sep 2018 at 11:37pm
Seeing as NSW can be included in the options, it does allow us a few additional options.

Probably one of the best value stallions in Australian is Denman, a stallion that appeals as a solid mating for the mare.  I know that the linebreeding aficionados will not necessarily see a lot in the match, but it appeals to me as a mating that is a good chance of producing a decent racing prospect. 

Not a mating I would recommend, but clearly The Brothers War is an interesting match in that state.  A mating that reinforces many of the lines in the mare's pedigree, but too risky in my view.

I would also like to again suggest that Onemorenomore is a stallion that I believe would result in a mating that would give a very good chance of breeding a winning progeny at a price point that is probably appropriate for the mare.  It may not be top class, but then the chances of the mare producing a stakes winner is probably pretty low.  The stallion's strike rate with mares that have strong stamina lines is very good, and he was a stallion that in spite of a kick start to his career, was heavily impacted by the Patinack fiasco.

The one that I think may be worth a risk is  National Defense.  A stallion who will not have a great appeal to local breeders, but a pedigree that complements the European strengths of the mare's pedigree in my view.


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