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Send your mare to a staying stallion!

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kiwi88 View Drop Down
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    Posted: 29 Oct 2008 at 9:54pm
With the ever diminishing Australian representitives in the Melbourne Cup, it is only going to get worse within the next few years. Stayers are a dying bred so instead of going to the stallion who won at 2 over 1200m, go for the staying blood. Your horse may be the only one in the Cup in a few years!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Relampago Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Oct 2008 at 9:57pm
Just have to be patient if you head this way!!
 
But not a bad logic!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Poulsen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Oct 2008 at 11:17pm
Patient and have bag loads of cash.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote reng Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Oct 2008 at 12:34am
I'm not convinced that Aus has the right climate to breed really good stayers.  The sunshine hours and heat from the land seem to promote short fibre muscles (sprinters).  Of course this is just my theory and conjecture, and genetics also has a part to play.
 
But NZ, with less heat and more water in the land, seems to grow stayers even with sprinting blood; while Aus finds it hard to grow stayers on as regular a basis but sprinters easy peasy....
 
Don't underestimate environment.
The problem with Opportunity is that it wears overalls and looks like work.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote v and m Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Oct 2008 at 12:47am
NZ prefer to breed with stallions that have shown wet track form, you need a far bit of stamina to get through bog tracks even if the distance is less than a mile.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tvlark Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Oct 2008 at 2:20am
Ok then... throw me some names, who exactly am I supposed to be breeding to??
~ It's all about the heart of the Thoroughbred ~
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote v and m Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Oct 2008 at 2:29am

depends on the mare's pedigree and conformation, a short backed mare is not usually a good match for a long backed stallion, but stallions like Denon are good options

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tvlark Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Oct 2008 at 3:03am
Denon, yes. I certainly hope so. Only we don't know if he'll throw stayers until he starts. He might be a champion sire of sprinting two year olds.
 
The point I was trying to make is there are such sub-standard staying stallions available to broodmare owners.
Here are the sires of the horses in the Derby - not that the Derby's an overly good gauge of staying sires because many sprinter-miler stallions can get a classic 3 year old.
 
Street Cry, Carnegie, Reset, Encosta de Lago, Catbird, Tuscanos, Pentire, Danasinga, Rock of Gibraltar, O'Reilly, Anabaa, Golan, Beautiful Crown.
 
Carnegie and Encosta de Lago have multiples. Carnegie has done himself justice as a sire of stayers - only just, chances are he'll never get a Cup winner. Pentire, O' Reilly and Golan are all NZrs no access for Australian breeders (or at least those more financially challenged). Catbird, as a Golden Slipper is interesting because he threw that nice stayer over the winter in Rumbird. Regardless, he's dead now so it doesn't matter. Encosta doesn't throw stayers, say what you want about Delzao, Sirmione, Princess Coup they're all middle distance. Tuscanos is a son of Encosta (I have to say I'm happy to see he's got one in the Derby!) - never a sire of stayers. Danasinga's certainly an option and a good one, but not for Danehill line mares. Anabaa throws the freak stayer (e.g. Headturner) but I've never been much of a fan. Rock of Gibraltar and Beautiful Crown (possibly one of the most overpriced stallions in Australia)don't throw stayers.
 
What have I come up with? Carnegie, if you dare and even then you're more likely to get a three year old that gets over ground if you get a champion. Danasinga, who I like and is now 17 years old. And then there's Reset. Let's pray the Sir T line continues. All three of whom are available only to those willing to pay over $15k.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sadlers wells Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Oct 2008 at 6:49pm
That is hat i love stayers and what i am trying to breed my 2yo Antonius Pius is a huge massively striding horses and the reports where great laid back temp and a definite stayer,then an elvis filly,she physically looks like a sprinter,this years Gods Own they tell me has a huge stride and covers a lot of ground very quickly,all out of a Sadlers Wells mare,cant wait till they are ready to race
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote furious Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Oct 2008 at 7:09am
From this same environment came Peter Pan, Rain Lover, Rainbird, Kingston Town (who admittedly could sprint as well), Comic Court, Russia, Windbag, Hall Mark, Delta, Trafalgar, Carbon Copy and if my memory is not incorrect Makybe Diva from about the yearling stage.
 
No the environment is not at fault.  Neither can we say that stallions are not available to sire these stayers.  Both Darly and Coolmore have pleanty of sires with at least middle distance staying ability.  Other sires like Song of Tara have out produced the mares sent to him constantly.  He stands in Australia.
 
I feel that our training tracks (inside or on our racetracks) perhaps hinders the development of the muscles needed for the stayers that we produced in the past.  People want things today not three years in the future so even trainers are presured into forcing these youngsters earlier than perhaps they need.  Yet some great stayers have started there racing as early 2yo's so that is not perhaps a criteria.
 
We can and have produced stayers and I'm afraid that arguement came out the last time New Zealand had a prolific run in our stakes events. 
 
Somehow we are forgetting that speed and stamina in the best of horses goes hand in hand.  Without one or the other we get 800m squibs or 4000m plodders.  Therefore we must be greatful that New Zealand has once again turned to producing stamina and they should be gratful for our speed but to say they can't produce sprinters is the just as silly as that we can't produce stayers.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tvlark Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Oct 2008 at 10:07am
I don't think we can anymore. (produce stayers that is). I think there's such a strong focus in producing early speed horses that people have forgotten about slow maturing stayers. (in australia)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote reng Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Oct 2008 at 5:32pm
I do agree furious that it's not so simple as I made out, but I think the sunshine hours is a factor that is overlooked.  Of course there are going to be exceptions to every idea in horses - that's what makes horses so fascinating (for my anyway).
The best stayers of the past usually had 2yo form (even Phar Lap raced 5 times at 2).
 

RACE RECORD

(in U.S.A., Australia)

   Age   Ctry Starts 1st   2nd    3rd           Stakes

2 years     AUS       5       1         -                     -    182

3 years  AUS 20     13       1        2         26,724

4 years  AUS 16     14       2         -         24,741

5 years  AUS  9       8        -         -           4,778

6 years  USA  1       1        -         -    US$50,500

                     51     37       3        2    US$50,500

                                                        and 56,425

 

At 2 years: STC Maiden Juvenile H. (6f).

At 3 years: Victoria Derby, Gr.1 (1m beating Carradale and Taisho), AJC Derby, Gr.1 (1m beating Carradale and Honour), AJC Cumberland S., Gr.1 (1m beating Donald and Kidaides), STC Rosehill Guineas, Gr.1 (9f beating Lorason and Holdfast), VRC St Leger, Gr.2 (1m beating Sir Ribble and Lineage), King's P., Gr.2 (2m beating Second Wind and Lineage), St Leger, Gr.2 (1m beating Sir Ribble and Peacemaker), AJC Chipping Norton S., Gr.2 (1m beating Amounis and Nightmarch), SAJC King's Cup, Gr.3 (1m beating Nadean and Kirrkie), AJC Plate, L (2m in track record time beating Nightmarch and Donald), Craven P., L (1m beating Mollison and Amounis), VRC Governor's P. (1m), SAJC Elders S. (9f), 2d NSW Tatt's RC Chelmsford S., Gr.2 (9f to Mollison and beating Winalot), 3d VRC Melbourne Cup, Gr.1 (2m to Nightmarch and Paquito), VATC St George S., Gr.2 (9f to Amounis and Parsee).

At 4 years: MVRC WS Cox P., Gr.1 (9f beating Tregilla and Mollison), VRC Melbourne Cup, Gr.1 (2m beating Second Wind and Shadow King), VATC Caulfield Futurity S., Gr.1 (7f beating Mystic Peak and Taurus), VRC King's P., Gr.2 (1m beating Glare and Lampra), Linlithgow S., Gr.2 (1m beating Mollison and Mystic Peak), VATC St George S., Gr.2 (9f beating Induna and Glare), NSW Tatt's RC Chelmsford S., Gr.2 (9f beating Nightmarch and Weotara), VRC Melbourne S., L (1m beating Tregilla and Amounis), CB Fisher P., L (1m beating Second Wind and Lineage), Essendon S., L (1m beating Lampra and Mira Donna), AJC Craven P., L (1m beating Nightmarch and Donald), Randwick P., L (2m beating Donald and Concentrate), STC Hill S., L (1m beating Nightmarch and High Disdain), AJC Spring S. (1m), 2d VRC CM Lloyd S., L (1m to Waterline and beating Temoin), AJC Warwick S., L (to Amounis and beating Nightmarch).

At 5 years: MVRC WS Cox P., Gr.1 (9f beating Chatham and Johnnie Jason), Williamstown RC Underwood S., Gr.1 (1m beating Rondalina and Wise Force), VATC Memsie S., Gr.2 (9f beating Rondalina and Waterline), VRC Melbourne S., L (1m beating Concentrate and Veilmond), AJC Randwick P., L (2m beating Chide and Chide), Craven P., L (1m beating Pentheus and Chide), STC Hill S., L (1m beating Chide and Waugoola), AJC Spring S. (1m).

At 6 years: Agua Caliente S., L (1m in track record time beating Reveille Boy).

The problem with Opportunity is that it wears overalls and looks like work.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kiwi88 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Oct 2008 at 7:21pm
Originally posted by tvlark tvlark wrote:

Ok then... throw me some names, who exactly am I supposed to be breeding to??
 
Well I don't know about over there, but Yamanin Vital is the ultimate staying sire here. Will take a bit longer to mature, but have already provided winners of NZ Derby (2400m), Wellington Cup (3200m) and New Zealand Cup (3200m), as well as the Great Northern Steeplechase (6400m) and Grand National Hurdles.
 
Stands for $6,000 so in a quite a few peoples budget.
 
  • Son of Champion Sire and Sire of Sires, Sir Tristram
  • Descends from a proven international female line
  • On the racetrack he ran the world class time of 1.59.6 for 2000 metres
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    Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Poulsen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Oct 2008 at 10:52pm
    Don't worry about it , the only time this debate comes up every year is MC time.
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    Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kiwi88 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Oct 2008 at 11:15pm
    and I wonder if it not for the Melbourne Cup, would there be any races over more then 2400m in Australasia?
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    Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Poulsen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Oct 2008 at 11:42pm
    Good point , I venture to say there wouldn't.
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    Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tvlark Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Nov 2008 at 12:49am
    Originally posted by Poulsen Poulsen wrote:

    Don't worry about it , the only time this debate comes up every year is MC time.
     
    It's all I think about all year. And I'm sure it would be in the back of people's minds if the Internationals came over for the BMW and the Metropolitan and showed the Australian lack of depth in them as well.
     
    We've got to stop breeding speed, speed, speed - the only thing that is of any value in the market (so who can blame breeders...? and owners who can get their return in 12 months from the yearling sales). If Hogan hadn't bought Sir Tristram, we would have been feeling it much earlier.
     
    But people should care. The Melbourne Cup is central to our racing scene, and it's run over 2 miles. Obviously there should be more emphasis on other staying races: the Melbourne Queen Elizabeth, Duke of Norfolk (whatever they call that now), St Leger, Cups in other cities - to entice people to own stallions but it's important for our thoroughbred stock to be bred more dour.
    ~ It's all about the heart of the Thoroughbred ~
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    Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tvlark Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Nov 2008 at 2:02am
    Not stallions, stayers - feeling a bit under the weather today Confused
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    Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote furious Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Nov 2008 at 12:18am

    1st, 2nd & 3rd VRC Derby and first inbred to Sir Tristram.  What a wallop of a horse - wasn't his sire only small.

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    Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Liberty Rose Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Nov 2008 at 7:49am
    Originally posted by reng reng wrote:

    I'm not convinced that Aus has the right climate to breed really good stayers.  The sunshine hours and heat from the land seem to promote short fibre muscles (sprinters).  Of course this is just my theory and conjecture, and genetics also has a part to play.
     
    But NZ, with less heat and more water in the land, seems to grow stayers even with sprinting blood; while Aus finds it hard to grow stayers on as regular a basis but sprinters easy peasy....
     
    Don't underestimate environment.
     
    Sorry Reng but I dont think it has anything to do with the enviroment.  Moreover, its all about RONI.  Get them going young, cash in on Bonus Scheme money which is all sprint racing.
     
    Can you imagine someone buying a $250,000 yearling and letting it sit in the paddock until its 4?    I dont think so.  The minute they're out the door of the sale yard they are being broken in and getting ready for their first preparation and their owners are rubbing their hands together thinking about their first QTIS or BOBS race.

    Its a sad indictment of the Australian Thoroughbred Industry - but its all coming down from the top ... you can thank Big J and all the race clubs who are pushing their respective bonus schemes - they are the ones who condone early 2YO sprint racing.
    A rose by any other name...
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    Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Slim Pickens Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Nov 2008 at 8:11am
    Praise the lord for Lloyd  Cool
    Who says i'm dumb?
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    Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote reng Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Nov 2008 at 6:09pm
    But that's the whole point.  A good stayer needs to be in work as a 2yo, it helps strengthen them.
     
    Name me a great (modern) stayer who didn't race as 3yo and you'll find an exception to the general. 
     
    Aus has the VRC Derby early in the 3yo season, and it's a good aim for a precocious stayer.  SOmething that Aus should be able to breed with the amount of precosity in the genetics.
     
    I completely disagree that stayers need to stay in the paddock until they are 4.  If they do, then aren't going to be any good. 
     
    I do, however, think that there needs to be more options for the stamina type.  Mid-late season 2yo races over 1600-2000 like in Europe and Japan, more staying events for 3yos and up at the lower levels.  It's just a matter of spreading the prizemoney across the distances better.
     
    Keep the VRC Derby and support it with other stamina events.  The MC is an iconic event for Australia - it needs to be supported by more staying races across all levels of the industry.
    The problem with Opportunity is that it wears overalls and looks like work.
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    Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote amateur Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Nov 2008 at 6:58pm
    "In work as a 2yo" does not necessarily mean "early sprint 2yo racing" though.  Most good trainers will give their 2yos a few educational preps, to get them used to stable life and what is expected of them etc. And if they seem to be coping well and enjoying themselves, they may get to a barrier trial or even a run before they get tipped out again.  That certainly wouldn't work against a future staying career and longevity on the track, but I think Liberty Rose is talking about pushing them into the Maribyrnong Plate or whatever because the money's good, regardless of what it will do to their future.
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    Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote reng Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Nov 2008 at 10:43pm
    I agree about being in work not necessarily meaning racing as an early 2yo.  But equally, it's more important to a horse's development to actually be in work and training their muscles than sitting in a paddock lumping around.
     
    How many high class human athletes do you know that were fat teenagers?
    The problem with Opportunity is that it wears overalls and looks like work.
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    Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote holeyravioli Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Nov 2008 at 12:34am
    Valerie Villi
    Tamara Press
    Beatrice Faumaina
    and about 3000 others!LOL
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    Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote reng Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Nov 2008 at 5:36pm
    Faumaina is hardly an example of an athlete who is going to win races!
    The problem with Opportunity is that it wears overalls and looks like work.
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    Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tvlark Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Nov 2008 at 6:20pm
    Originally posted by furious furious wrote:

    1st, 2nd & 3rd VRC Derby and first inbred to Sir Tristram.  What a wallop of a horse - wasn't his sire only small.

     
    I applaud this forum for making me dive into pedigree analysis and back the Derby winner. I've been moping over the death of Sir Tristram's legacy as Zabeel's seemed unable to leave a sire son . I put my faith in Reset. And what a tough staying performance from his son...! My whole attitude's changed now, Sir Tristram's given us some hope of keeping staying alive in this country. If we can import some class Diesis sons, persist with the Sadler's Wells sires (of who High Chapparel looks something special) and have a helping hand from the local, Reset we're in with a very good chance.
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    Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bomba Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Nov 2008 at 6:35pm
    I think you have left your dash a bit late with sons of Diesis for some reason he did not work here or his two brothers.. Grandsons of Sharpen Up hardly likely to leave you top stayers over our mares
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    Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tvlark Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Nov 2008 at 7:00pm
    Wasn't Falak the only son we got over here? They've imported relatively few, and he certainly wasn't that well credentialed.
     
    Just this year his line looks strong... All the Good, Bauer both being Diesis line.
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    Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Buckpasser Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Nov 2008 at 2:46am
    Name a winner of the Kentucky Derby or English Derby who did not race at 2.
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