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Ranking of G1 race worldwide

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Red Rum Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Nov 2017 at 8:50pm
Originally posted by Sworn Revenge Sworn Revenge wrote:


Ultimately on a global racing scene Australian horses are collectively massively inferior from 1 mile and above compared to their European counterparts. The same principle works in reverse regarding British sprinters. Sprinting is not as revered in Britain as middle distance and above and therefore your breeding industry doesn't cater for them.



I agree with you, SW. Australian horses from 1m+ are USUALLY inferior to European 1m+ horses... and British sprinters USUALLY inferior to Aussie sprinters. But that does not mean it is the case every year. Just as Winx (an Aussie horse effective at longer distances) deserves to be rated at the top of that distance category; our top sprinters do too.

It may well be that in future it will go back to the norm. Like I said, we have our best group of sprinters for DECADES. Battaash and Harry Angel's form (and Lady Aurelia and Marsha come to that) deserve to be rated a long way clear of Chautaugua. Latter is rated 127 by Timeform - which in a NORMAL year would be good enough to be rated the World's best sprinter. However, Battaash is rated 136, Lady Aurelia 133, Harry Angel 132 and Marsha 130. It's not that all sprinters running in Britain are better this year, just those four. Under race conditions (adding 3 lbs to the two females) that gang of four are 7 lbs and more in front of all other European sprinters.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Red Rum Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Nov 2017 at 9:29pm
Originally posted by Sworn Revenge Sworn Revenge wrote:


If Winx has to travel to Britain to justify herself as she is " beating nothing and needs to come here to race against proper horses " you can rest assured that until Battash or Harry Angel travel here they are guilty of the exact same sin.


Although we would be privileged and love to see the great mare Winx run in Britain, I don't think she need to prove herself by racing in other countries. Because although those she's beating in Australia are not of the quality of Enable, Cracksman and Gun Runner... she's shown form of at least the same standard as those three, in winning by a long distance.

Any horse does not need to run to its absolute best every time to win. eg It does not matter that Winx has run to a Timeform Performance rating of as low as 118 in some of her 22 race winning run; we know she's worth a rating of 133 or 134 by her 8 lengths victory of Harnell and/or 7 1/4 lengths victory over Le Romain and/or 6 1/2 lengths win over Ventura Storm. ie There's plenty of room to fit better horses between Winx and the second placed horses in those three races.

However, how good could Winx be? At a Timeform 134 it's clear she's a great filly. Sometimes top horses spur other top horses on to produce an even greater performanc. If Winx were to take on Enable then it's entirely possible one or both could produce a Timeform 137, which would be the best EVER Timeform rating by a female racehorse!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Red Rum Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Nov 2017 at 9:46pm
Originally posted by furious furious wrote:

I'm trying to say we have groups of horses.  Same as the European countries do and some of those groups are stronger than others.  But each can produce Champions in their own right.<div id="UMS_TOOLTIP" style=": ; cursor: pointer; : 2147483647; : transparent; top: -100000px; left: -100000px;">

You say ours are weak at the moment.  They can't beat Winx who just happens to do things most horses can't.  Same as many of our previous Champions the opposition just can't beat her at the moment - even when she gives them a chance by missing the start etc. 


It's not that Australian horses are weak at the moment, apart from the sprint scene they are generally weakER in COMPARISSON with British, French and USA horses most years. Sweet Revenge says "massively" so, I wouldn't personally go quite that far. But when a truly exceptional horse comes along of course they can run up sequences in Australia.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Red Rum Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Nov 2017 at 9:53pm
Originally posted by furious furious wrote:

But go back and find out how many were chasing Frankel and you see she still has beaten more G1 winners.  And those G1 winners are not second class



Yes, they are on average "second class" Group 1 winners in comparisson to the average Group 1 winner in Britain, France and Ireland.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Red Rum Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Nov 2017 at 9:54pm
You're not seriously comparing Winx with Frankel?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baguette Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Nov 2017 at 10:19pm
I'd like to know how you can be so sure that Australian horses are so "weak"? Nobody can say that with any authority. So You Think did alright overseas and Winx is lengths better than him. Many lengths . Winx can do things other horses can't do like accelerate to her top speed faster than anything I've seen and hold that top speed for longer than anything I've seen. Winx also eats pressure for breakfast and is at her absolute best the more speed there is in a race. And goes on any surface. Plus has done it year after year. She's a freak of nature and Enable has a long way to go to be mentioned in the same breath as her.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Red Rum Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Nov 2017 at 10:58pm
Originally posted by furious furious wrote:

just overlooked by the North.

Some horses I'm sure you have never heard of as they would never have been rated overseas -

Invincible Star was beaten a head in the Ascot Vale Stakes G1 but she faced the wind right down the straight and only just went down.  She will win a G1 race.

Tangled is bred for speed and is a G2 winner over 1200m but he's G1 placed over 2000m by a nose to Ace High this spring.  But he doesn't rate.

Merchant Navy has won 5 of 6 starts including a G1 but wait he doesn't rate

Shoals has had 7 starts for 5 wins including four stakes races including a G1 against open class mares and a 2nd in the 1000 Guineas G1 but of course she doesn't rate

Formality 10 starts 5 wins inc four group wins and two G1 places inc Ascot Vale (Coolmore Stud S) G1 but no she doesn't rate.

She Will Reign has had 7 starts 5 wins four stakes wins including the Golden Slipper G1 and an open class G1 WFA Sprint first up as a three year old.  Nope she doesn't rate.

Egg Tart has had 11 starts for 6 wins including the Australasian Oaks 2000m in Adelaide and the Queensland Oaks 2400m in Brisbane.  That's a distance of 2053 km between those two wins.  Do your Oaks winners have to travel that far to rate.

Redzel 21 starts 11 wins eight stakes wins including two G1 races.  Has won his last six races all in Group company beating three horses on the list.  Well donkey licking them truthfully.  But he is not rated.

I am a Star has had six Group wins including a G1 and two other G1 places.  She hasn't come up this season but deserved a rating on last season.


You've just proved my point about form, Furious. You don't talk about "form", you keep on about what the race is called, believing the number of the race and/or number of Group 1 wins mean the horse is under-rated. "Form" is not the race name or number of wins, it is how a horse runs against the other horses.

If two horses run against each other 7 times at level weights and every time Horse A beats horse B a length. Then it does not matter the number of wins and it would not matter if the two met in a Group 1, Group 2 or another name... "Form" shown by A is no better on the 7th meeting than the first. ie The way form analysts work (at least in other than Australia) form analysts have to rate horse A a length better than horse B.

Egg Tart:
You think Egg Tart deserves to be rated highly because of the Schweppes Oaks. But she only beat Kenedna a short head at level weights. Ana Royale half a length further back and 1 length back to Tiffany's Lass and 1/2 to Sedanzer etc. So unless she won hard held with an enormous amount in hand (unlikely given distances)... On "form" if you give Egg Tart a high rating then Kenedna (because of the short head) has to be rated either the SAME or at the most just 1 lb inferior. Ana Royale just 1 or two pounds inferior to Egg Tart etc.

It may be sometimes horses don't run to form when travelling 2000 km (some British horses disappoint in the Breeders Cup in USA). But that doesn't mean the ones that do run well have necessarily shown better form than they did on home turf.

I agree, Redzel deserves to be "rated" and She Will Reign is highly promising. Some of the others are promising to a lesser degree and some nowhere near real top class.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Red Rum Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Nov 2017 at 12:10am
Originally posted by Baguette Baguette wrote:

I'd like to know how you can be so sure that Australian horses are so "weak"? Nobody can say that with any authority. So You Think did alright overseas and Winx is lengths better than him. Many lengths . Winx can do things other horses can't do like accelerate to her top speed faster than anything I've seen and hold that top speed for longer than anything I've seen. Winx also eats pressure for breakfast and is at her absolute best the more speed there is in a race. And goes on any surface. Plus has done it year after year. She's a freak of nature and Enable has a long way to go to be mentioned in the same breath as her.


Sweet Revenge said Australian horses at 1m+ are "massively" inferior, I wouldn't go as far, Baguette. imo Not "so weak" as you put it, just weakER in COMPARISSON to GB, FR, USA and I. Compared to other nations they'd be strongER.

I agree with you, horses of the quality of Winx, So You Think, Black Caviar and others would be successful anywhere in the World... And you're right Winx is better than So You Think was, even more so when adding the sex allowance. It's just that the AVERAGE quality of Group 1 winners/runners is not as good as Britain, France, USA and Ireland... And the fact there's so many AUS Group 1's also making winning multiple Group 1's far easier than those named countries.

Of course nobody knows for definite, these things are somewhat subjective but evidence backs it up. It's not just me that thinks the average Australian 1m+ Group 1 race inferior to the big 4 horse racing countries average (Australia would imo be in a "big 5"), it's a fairly well established theory amongst all countries - including Australia...

WHY do you think there's been so many Australian trained sprinters running at Royal Ascot and yet how many 1m+ horses have made the same trip? Answer: Because Australian trainers recognise their horses at 1m+ are in all probability inferior.

On Timeform ratings, Winx is rightly rated exceptional @ 134. But the overall quality of runners means Winx can run significantly below her best and still win. eg In the Colgate she ran to a Timeform Performance rating of 123, some 11 lbs below her best. If that was a Britain it's doubtful she'd have got away with it... And she has run to lower in those 22 and won. Although of course 22 in a row is still a massive achievement.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Red Rum Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Nov 2017 at 1:42am
Originally posted by furious furious wrote:


Now look at the top horses rated -

Arrogate 11 starts 7 wins beaten last three 134
Winx 32 starts 26 wins including last 22 mostly G1 with a few G2's thrown in
Cracksman (3yo) 7 starts 5 wins including one G1 2nd Poet's Word (11 starts 4 wins including no G1's and not on the list)
Gun Runner 18 starts 11 wins including last four at G1 level after 2nd to Arrogate in World Cup.
Enable 8 starts 7 wins and a great stayer
Ulysses 13 starts 5 wins inc one G1 race 
Cloth of Stars 13 starts 7 wins inc one G1
Harry Angel 8 starts 4 wins inc 2 G1's (unlike Redzel who also has 2 G1 victories he hasn't six Group & Everest wins in a row)



Again, you've got this thing about number of wins and name of races.

Arrogate is rated on that link purely on his Dubai World Cup success. If it were a handicap I'd say he is no longer capable of that rating and therefore now deserves deserves to be rated below Gun Runner. But because these ratings are purely about who has put up the best performance in a timespan, Arrogate remains top because no horse has produced a better performance since. So (for these particular ratings) Arrogate's subsequent disappointments mean nothing, because the form has worked out.

Poet's Word is a typical Sir Michael Stoute progressive four year old, brought along slowly. Yes, it's true he's not won a "Group 1" yet, but he was 2nd to Decorated Knight in the Group 1 Irish Champion. Decorated Knight is a proven Group 1 horse. Winning the G1 Jebel Hatta in Dubai and G1 Tatts Gold Cup in Ireland; second in the G1 Prince Of Wales at Royal Ascot all this season before the G1 Irish Champion success. So he'd probably be rated highly on your scale of handicapping... And yet Poet's Word was only beaten 1/2 a length by Decorated Knight in that G1. Cracksman beat Poet's Word 7 lengths!

I don't see how Gun Runner and/or Enable's record can be criticised. So won't go through their form unless you want me to?

Ulysses another progressive Stoute 4 year old. Has actually won two Group 1 races - Eclipse and International this year, not the 1 you claim... And without Enable would've won the King George too. This season has won two of the best Group 1's in Britain, and been placed in the other three, including the top two mile and a half races.

Yes, Cloth Of Stars has only 1 Group 1 to his name, winning the Ganay in May. But I think you should recognise that a win is not always as good a performance as a 2nd. Short neck victory over Zarak, with a further 3/4 length to Silverwave in no way as good as 2 1/2 length runner-up in the Arc; splitting Enable and Ulysses. Race that works out well, Champion Stayer Order Of St George in 4th and French Guineas and Derby winner Brametot in 5th. Every renewal is different, but on average the Arc is rated the best race in the World because of the quality of runners. Cloth Of Stars showed improved form to be beaten 2 1/2 lengths.

Harry Angel needs things to go his way, can race too freely at times, as he did in both Ascot starts. When racing within himself has produced four top class performances this season. In the Haydock Sprint beat Tasleet 4 lengths, with a further 1 1/2 to The Tin Man. Tasleet had only been a neck behind The Tin Man at Royal Ascot in the G1 Golden Jubilee and was only 1 1/4 behind Librisa Breeze in the G1 Champion Sprint... And Harry Angel was not even all out to win by 4. He also won the slowly run G1 July Cup by 1 1/2 from the previous year's winner Limato, with subsequent G1 Maurice De Gheest winner Brando a further 1/2 length away.

If two horses run to their bests in a race, HOW can logic justify the one finishing behind being rated higher? That's what you are suggesting for it all to be about number of Group 1's.

imo A horse capable of better "form" should be rated higher, no matter what the name of race or how many races he's won/run.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Red Rum Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Nov 2017 at 2:23am
Originally posted by furious furious wrote:


Our Champion Sires have been home grown for many years now.  This started back in the 1960's with sons of Star Kingdom and Wilkes and Better Boy.  Continued until the advent of super sire Danehill and then his sons and grandson's took over with Redoute's Choice, Fastnet Rock, Snitzel etc.  Encosta de Lago also reigned for a couple of seasons and has the Broodmare Sire under control in recent years although here he has challenges from Zabeel and Danehill with Redoute's also starting to show up.  Then there is the Sir Tristram line with Zabeel, Lonhro and now Pierro show signs of being a classic sire who could challenge.

Snitzel had 58 stakes horses last season.  And is already up to 21 stakes wins including two G1 winners including this seasons unbeaten sprinter Redzel.  He has 25 stakes horses so far and we aren't four months into our season yet.  

We have a different type of horse to that in Europe and yes we also import to improve our staying blood.  But then our racing doesn't give our trainers much of a chance to get young stayers going.  We hardly have a two year old race over 1200m.  There are few 1400m or 1600m and that is it.  Our young stayers ie Ace High run in sprints as young horses which doesn't help there stats in the long run.  Then as they don't have the foundation after the 3yo Classic's most are dropped back to 1600m.  No wonder they don't succeed.  Mind you we also do produce many who have wins from 1000m to 2400m and even a few who can even extend that win tally from 1000m to 3200m.

Yes Winx gave Street Cry one Championship but one sip isn't showing any lessening in our own stallions winning.

Don't you know that because we are - well no where near anywhere - we are treated badly in comparison to the Northern Hemisphere horses.  She Will Reign was a superior two year old and has come back to win against open company in a G1 race.  Ace High and Pinot look outstanding and both didn't get it easy in the Derby or the Oaks having to overcome their badly situated runs through the race.  The rest of the world didn't know what a great horse Hay List was.  We did.  Happy Clapper is a bulldog who is totally overlooked despite winning his G1 mile carrying top weight.  We often run down our own horses when they get beaten yet some have traveled almost 1000 km to race or even closer to 3500 km and then fail when obviously well outside their comfort.  We expect alot of our horses and are very critical.  

I download your G1 races as part of my job and I know many in every country be it USA, Britain, France and Ireland (your list) are weaker than what I am watching.  Some with four to a field.  We complain when it is under 10 and usually get between 10 and 24.  Winx chases them away but she has already beaten those fields of 15 and 18 etc.  She breaks their hearts and many even run badly after trying to beat her.  She breaks them.

We are keen for shuttle stallions because on the whole we have been a country which gelds alot of its racehorses.  This is slowly changing.  But then you can have just so many sons of Redoute's Choice and Snitzel before you have to look for outcrosses.  Thank heavens for Street Cry and Sir Tristram as both lines cross well with the predominately Danehill/Star Kingdom/Wilkes/Fairy King lines we have here.  But really since Danehill found the great Bletchingly blood which crossed so well with his Danzig sireline we just haven't had one hit the big time.

We lost Street Cry but now have some of his sons who will hopefully extend his line.  But don't think just because we import that we are weak.

Some of the stronger lines for stakes winners have lived in Australia and New Zealand since the 1800's.  Even when we lost faith in our own blood these female lines continued quietly producing great horses.  We imported a 3/4 sister in blood to one of your Epsom Derby winners back in the 1850's.  Last season saw three decendents win at G1 level.  This season all three are winners at of placed at G1 already.  Great blood has come to Australia and New Zealand in the past and lucky for us these lines are still performing.

I hear all the arguments about us and them.  But I know great horses can be born everywhere.  Top class horses can often be overlooked though so we don't make the Best Racehorse Rankings as much as we should.


Your breeding has improeved over the last 50 years, Furious; no doubt about that. But it still is not as good as European and USA bloodstock in that it does not produce as many real top class 1m+ horses.

I go back to the fact that so many Australian trained sprinters have come over to Royal Ascot with great success.

Why do you think Australian trainers have not brought over their top 1m+ horses?

It's just about possible that you might be right, Furious. That the average Australian Group 1 1m+ winner is as good as ours over here. But if so it's a pity the people close to those horses - Australian trainers and owners - are adamant they are not.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Red Rum Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Nov 2017 at 2:35am
Originally posted by furious furious wrote:


We have a different type of horse to that in Europe

Don't you know that because we are - well no where near anywhere - we are treated badly in comparison to the Northern Hemisphere horses. 


Do Australian thoroughbreds have five legs or something?
This evolution thing must work instantly in Australia.

Oh the old downtrodden Aussie syndrome; "we are treated badly".

Stop living in the past.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baguette Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Nov 2017 at 5:55am
I couldn't care less about ratings which are in the end only someone's opinion. I watch the horses who also couldn't care less about ratings. The only way to compare horses is to race them against one another , which is never going to happen so the whole argument is silly really. I could use your whole argument against you regarding Frankel if I wanted. He was only so dominant because English racing was weak at the time. After all he never raced anywhere else did he? They kept him in England because those close to him knew he wouldn't win anywhere else. See it's silly. Furious is spot on it takes a different sort of galloper to succeed in Australia. We race more bunched, our tracks are tighter , we don't have pacemakers ( officially) and our top races are much more tactical. Some horses come out from England and thrive here, like Hartnell, and some don't. Our racing is not inferior just different.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tlazolteotl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Nov 2017 at 6:09am
Australian sprinters are not exactly triumphantly superior when they get to England are they- they lose more often than they win.
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Yes because they are outside there comfort ground.  European stayers find lovely level courses which are easy to cope with.  They have distance to overcome and many fail also.  They are coming in numbers which we have never tried to send over to Europe.  

We go to Ascot which is a lovely course but up and down and our horses just haven't been trained or ever hit that.  Some cope and win or place others go to pieces as they probably need to run a strong 1400m to win the 1200m etc and never perform.  Now if they stay over there as Starspangledbanner and So You Think did they get trained for it and can come good but it's not something they have ever seen anywhere in Australia so it's not only distance they and out of season they have to overcome.

You keep saying things about being rated on a performance Red Rum.  But it seems that you have no respect for any form over here.

You say that Poet's Voice will win his G1 and that the winner is superior. 

What about Pinot six starts 3 wins and 2 seconds inc a G1 and G3.  She's been brought along slowly as there is nothing for a stayer as a 2yo in Australia.  We don't have your 1600m, 1800m 2000m races.  So she started only this season 1st up 9th over 1300m then 2nd over 1321m and 1600m.  But when she hit 1800m at Flemington she won by 3 3/4 len.  Next time out over 2000m she won a G3 at Caulfield by 1 3/4 len.  Her last start this spring was in the VRC Oaks and this time she missed the start by rearing in the gates.  Her jockey looked up from the rear of the field and saw the race favourite - a very good G1 winning filly - up near the front and knew he wouldn't be able to out sprint her from so far back.  And Pinot herself has been taught to win from closer to the front of the field.  So he sent her from the back to be sitting just off the lead.  So after this hard run she still ran away to win by 1 1/4 len with a good stakes winning High Chaparral filly Bring Me Roses running home hard for second.  But that form is unratable because our stayers are so far inferior.  They don't get a chance to develop.

You say you consider that Rezel should be rated but you likewise underrate Chautauqua who it seems has been underperforming by running times which are superior.  He's handicapped as he comes from the rear and has to oursprint sprinters.  His finishing runs to win the T J Smith (3 times) and the Hong Kong Sprint (yes he has travelled) had to be seen to be believed.  We now have a front running sprinter who unfortunately for Chautauqua just keeps getting stronger.

So you consider our sprinters weak at the moment.  After all they haven't come to prove themselves over you tough courses in England.  It would of been a very hard task for Chautauqua so they went to Hong Kong to prove him.  There he at least found similar courses to what he is used to.

I still say you are underrating our form.  I've seen some amazing races and form these last spring and autumn and most haven't got a peep out of your rating lists.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tlazolteotl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Nov 2017 at 7:55am
Originally posted by Baguette Baguette wrote:

I couldn't care less about ratings which are in the end only someone's opinion. I watch the horses who also couldn't care less about ratings. The only way to compare horses is to race them against one another , which is never going to happen so the whole argument is silly really. I could use your whole argument against you regarding Frankel if I wanted. He was only so dominant because English racing was weak at the time. After all he never raced anywhere else did he? They kept him in England because those close to him knew he wouldn't win anywhere else. See it's silly. Furious is spot on it takes a different sort of galloper to succeed in Australia. We race more bunched, our tracks are tighter , we don't have pacemakers ( officially) and our top races are much more tactical. Some horses come out from England and thrive here, like Hartnell, and some don't. Our racing is not inferior just different.


The only useful thing about the whole enterprise of international rankings as far as I can tell is that it gives someone a job.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Red Rum Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Nov 2017 at 8:28am
Originally posted by Baguette Baguette wrote:

I couldn't care less about ratings which are in the end only someone's opinion. I watch the horses who also couldn't care less about ratings. The only way to compare horses is to race them against one another , which is never going to happen so the whole argument is silly really. I could use your whole argument against you regarding Frankel if I wanted. He was only so dominant because English racing was weak at the time. After all he never raced anywhere else did he? They kept him in England because those close to him knew he wouldn't win anywhere else. See it's silly. Furious is spot on it takes a different sort of galloper to succeed in Australia. We race more bunched, our tracks are tighter , we don't have pacemakers ( officially) and our top races are much more tactical. Some horses come out from England and thrive here, like Hartnell, and some don't. Our racing is not inferior just different.


Differently rated.

Not my "arguement", Baguette. I'd personally love to see Winx over here, but the form she's so far shown is imo no worse if not choosing to race in Britain. I do believe a meeting of two well matched fantastic horses, Winx and Enable could spur each other on to even greater performances. So it's a shame if they don't meet wherever that might be.

You can believe what you want about Frankel. May be he would not have been as good if racing abroad. imo Difficult to believe the greatest horse of my lifetime could be any better than he showed in Britain. Sir Henry Cecil did a magnificent job to control Frankel's natural enthusiasm. Wore a lip chain in the parade ring and not the easiest to keep calm. So may be travelling would not have been a wise move with a horse of his temperament. Especially when universally thought of as the best racehorse for at least 100 years, possibly ever. So of course Frankel was an extremely valuable asset, both as a racehorse and potential sire.

Taking a look at recent Australian horses to have won in Britain, only the first - Choisir - was an entire... And he enhanced his value enormously in winning the Kings Stand and Golden Jubilee. All the others were geldings and two mares. It would've been impossible for Frankel to enhance his value and racing abroad would've been too much of a risk. Travelling a gelding or mare has little risk and travelling a colt/entire that could greatly enhance his stud value would be worth the risk. As it is Frankel's stud fee is now £175,000.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote furious Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Nov 2017 at 8:39am
Ok regarding class of our middle distance horses.  As I have said our racing is not designed to actually develop stayers but we do have some great staying families here.  We just usually get them to win over short courses.  Doesn't mean that the staying class isn't still there.

We could look at two of our Australian mare who had both foals in Australia and England and one sent to the USA.  Now I know that matings can be uneven.  We had Galileo in Australia and because of our training styles he just didn't fire  - but its a different story in the North.  Now that doesn't delete from the great record Galileo has.  He just couldn't compete with the speed of Australia and we don't develop stayers the way Europe does.  Tales of two citys or continents.  Different horses for different courses.  Not lesser or greater.  Just different.

So we also have had Australian mares of various levels sent to England, Ireland and USA.

Hveger (Danehill - Circles of Gold) 13 starts 1 win and G1 stakes placed.  Her dam was an outstanding stayer and dam of G1 quality middle distance horses who won both in Australia, England, UAE etc.
So not a great filly like her brother Elvstroem definately still showing middle distance form.  This is the great Eulogy (GB) 1911 family which has constantly produced high quality stayers in New Zealand and Australia.  But of course anything produced in Australia is inferior as our stayers aren't as good.  It's the same blood they are good here and there.

Like her dam her first foal in Australia (by Encosta de Lago) was a winner and G1 placed this time 2nd in VRC Oaks.  Second AUS foal unplaced probably to hot to settle as by Fusaichi Pegasus.

Then she was exported to England and Ireland and met up with Galileo.  Now we know Danehill and Sadler's Wells have a great liking for each other in a pedigree and so it seems she has met her match producing both Highland Reel 26 starts 9 wins inc 6 G1's in USA, Hong Kong, England and placed 3rd behind Winx in the W S Cox Plate.  Her next foal Idaho isn't as great as his full brother but 15 starts have seen 3 wins inc G2 double and 2nds in Irish Derby and 3rd Epsom Derby.  Appartently her can be hot under the collar also.

Porto Roca 1996 (Barathea - Antelliere) 25 starts 5 wins inc G1 Coolmore Classic.  A good mare without ever closing on the class of the above family. She won from 1200m to 1600m.   This is the Meadow Queen (GB) 1888 family which produced an Australian great in Winfreux winner of the Doomben 10,000, Stradbroke H, Doomben Cup, Caulfield S (three times), LKS Mackinnon S, CF Orr S, William Reid S etc between 7f and 11f.

At stud her Australia foals include a King's Best who had 13 starts for 3 wins (country class), Via Corone a Zeditave who only had one starts for a win.  An Elusive Quality who had 36 starts for 9 wins including city Brisbane wins.

The in England she produced Monterosso by Dubawi 17 starts 7 wins inc Ascot King Edward VII S G2 over 1 1/2 miles, Dubai City of Gold G1 over 2485m and the Meydan Dubai World Cup over 2000m.  Somewhat out of his dams comfort ground in Australia but definately world class.  Followed by plenty of winners more to her Australian foals class.

Bollinger (Dehere - Bint Marscay) 8 starts 5 wins also including the Coolmore Classic G1 a daughter of Golden Slipper winner Bint Marscay.  This is the Moonshine (GB) 1853 family mostly developed in New Zealand but this branch stems from when the New Zealand bred Eau D'Etoile (Sir Tristram) met Marscay (Golden Slipper winner and also the sire of Circles of Gold dam of Hveger).  A mix of speed and Stamina.

Bollinger was sent to the USA where her first foal by Gone West had 12 starts for 3 wins including a Newmarket win. 

Her second foal Friesan Fire (A P Indy) had 18 starts for 5 wins for 4 stakes wins inc Louisiana Derby G2.  After a few more minor winners she came back to Australia and got three more minor winners.

Now while all the above mares foaled their best foal overseas if it had been in reverse would the resultant stakes winners have been rated the same as the overseas ones?  Same blood different conditions.
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Red Rum Australians also have a big inferiority complex and always downplay their horses.  We even look for the worst in our champions instead of enjoy them while we have them.  I don't have an idea where that comes from except that maybe we have been told so often that we are inferior that we believe it.


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You even take the avitar of the great jumper Red Rum who in his first Grand National win carried 23 pounds less than the Australian Champion Crisp who he beat by 3/4 len.  The black kangaroo carried a weight now forbidden in the National.  Admittedly Red Rum also won his third carrying that weight but if they had meet carrying the same weight who knows?  Crisp was at the end and Red Rum at the beginning of his career but the class was there in the second horse for all to see.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Red Rum Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Nov 2017 at 9:19am
Originally posted by furious furious wrote:

Yes because they are outside there comfort ground.  European stayers find lovely level courses which are easy to cope with.  They have distance to overcome and many fail also.  They are coming in numbers which we have never tried to send over to Europe.  

We go to Ascot which is a lovely course but up and down and our horses just haven't been trained or ever hit that.  Some cope and win or place others go to pieces as they probably need to run a strong 1400m to win the 1200m etc and never perform.  Now if they stay over there as Starspangledbanner and So You Think did they get trained for it and can come good but it's not something they have ever seen anywhere in Australia so it's not only distance they and out of season they have to overcome.<div id="UMS_TOOLTIP" style=": ; cursor: pointer; : 2147483647; : transparent; top: -100000px; left: -100000px;">

You keep saying things about being rated on a performance Red Rum.  But it seems that you have no respect for any form over here.

You say that Poet's Voice will win his G1 and that the winner is superior. 

What about Pinot six starts 3 wins and 2 seconds inc a G1 and G3.  She's been brought along slowly as there is nothing for a stayer as a 2yo in Australia.  We don't have your 1600m, 1800m 2000m races.  So she started only this season 1st up 9th over 1300m then 2nd over 1321m and 1600m.  But when she hit 1800m at Flemington she won by 3 3/4 len.  Next time out over 2000m she won a G3 at Caulfield by 1 3/4 len.  Her last start this spring was in the VRC Oaks and this time she missed the start by rearing in the gates.  Her jockey looked up from the rear of the field and saw the race favourite - a very good G1 winning filly - up near the front and knew he wouldn't be able to out sprint her from so far back.  And Pinot herself has been taught to win from closer to the front of the field.  So he sent her from the back to be sitting just off the lead.  So after this hard run she still ran away to win by 1 1/4 len with a good stakes winning High Chaparral filly Bring Me Roses running home hard for second.  But that form is unratable because our stayers are so far inferior.  They don't get a chance to develop.

You say you consider that Rezel should be rated but you likewise underrate Chautauqua who it seems has been underperforming by running times which are superior.  He's handicapped as he comes from the rear and has to oursprint sprinters.  His finishing runs to win the T J Smith (3 times) and the Hong Kong Sprint (yes he has travelled) had to be seen to be believed.  We now have a front running sprinter who unfortunately for Chautauqua just keeps getting stronger.

So you consider our sprinters weak at the moment.  After all they haven't come to prove themselves over you tough courses in England.  It would of been a very hard task for Chautauqua so they went to Hong Kong to prove him.  There he at least found similar courses to what he is used to.

I still say you are underrating our form.  I've seen some amazing races and form these last spring and autumn and most haven't got a peep out of your rating lists.


I think you misunderstand me, Furious. It's not that I have a poor opinion of current Australian sprinters. Chautauqua has imo put up at least as good performances as all the Aussie Royal Ascot winners; Choisir, Takeover Target, Miss Andretti, Scenic Blast and Black Caviar.(Although I recognise Black Caviar was nowhere near her best in winning here and at her best was far better than Chautauqua)... And I recognise in the majority of recent years Australian sprinters were better than British sprinters - just not this year. Purely because I have a particularly good opinion of the performances put up in Britain in this one year... by Battaash, Harry Angel, Lady Aurelia and Marsha.

I think we agreed on Redzel, didn't we? I would "rate" Redzel at the moment behind Chautauqua, but he's not far behind and still progressing. Redzel may well improve past Chautauqua in 2018.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carioca Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Nov 2017 at 9:19am
Originally posted by furious furious wrote:

You even take the avitar of the great jumper Red Rum who in his first Grand National win carried 23 pounds less than the Australian Champion Crisp who he beat by 3/4 len.  The black kangaroo carried a weight now forbidden in the National.  Admittedly Red Rum also won his third carrying that weight but if they had meet carrying the same weight who knows?  Crisp was at the end and Red Rum at the beginning of his career but the class was there in the second horse for all to see.<div id="UMS_TOOLTIP" style=": ; cursor: pointer; : 2147483647; : transparent; top: -100000px; left: -100000px;">


Different story when they met at equal weights, Crisp gave him a decent touch up, 10 lengths, at Doncaster, up to 2 1/2 mile Crisp was far superior, 20 sec. off GN rec.too.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baguette Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Nov 2017 at 9:36am
Originally posted by furious furious wrote:

Red Rum Australians also have a big inferiority complex and always downplay their horses.  We even look for the worst in our champions instead of enjoy them while we have them.  I don't have an idea where that comes from except that maybe we have been told so often that we are inferior that we believe it.<div id="UMS_TOOLTIP" style=": ; cursor: pointer; : 2147483647; : transparent; top: -100000px; left: -100000px;">


This is the point I was trying, obviously very badly, to make . We've been told constantly that the European horses are better than ours and we just believe it. When there really is no factual evidence that this is true. I mean Highland Reel is supposed to be pretty good but he couldn't keep up with Winx. We're a weird mob!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote furious Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Nov 2017 at 9:43am
Yes you can get great sprinters.  I'm trying to say we can also get great middle distance stayers.  Despite conditions and training and races not suiting that breed we hold our own up to 2500m.  At 3200m yes you are superior we just don't have anything to produce horses over that distance at the moment.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote furious Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Nov 2017 at 9:44am
Our lines can produce great horses over a distance overseas.  They can do the same here if given a chance.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote furious Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Nov 2017 at 9:54am
Look at the record of High Chaparral in Europe and New Zealand and Australia.  On the whole we've got the best out of his stock.  Producing some brilliant stayers.

But we've never been able to bring that up to a 3200m horse like Rekindling.  Rekindling went out over 1m 1/2f, 1 mile and 1m 2f as a two year old.

Now Ace High High Chaparral's great Spring Champion (2000m) S G1 & VRC Derby (2500m) G1 and Gloaming S G3 (1800m) also went out as a two year old. 1100m, 1100m, 1200m, 1400m, 1600m, 1600m.  A heavy season for a 4th in a G1 1600m event.  His class really didn't surface until he hit 1800m as a 3yo.  The trainer knew he was special.  But he needed a distance to prove it himself on the track. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Red Rum Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Nov 2017 at 10:17am
Originally posted by furious furious wrote:

Red Rum Australians also have a big inferiority complex and always downplay their horses.  We even look for the worst in our champions instead of enjoy them while we have them.  I don't have an idea where that comes from except that maybe we have been told so often that we are inferior that we believe it.<div id="UMS_TOOLTIP" style=": ; cursor: pointer; : 2147483647; : transparent; top: -100000px; left: -100000px;">




Could've fooled me, Furious.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote furious Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Nov 2017 at 11:07am
Hey I talking about alot of people in Australia.  And yes I have a certain lack of self confidence but I've worked in this industry since I was a teenager.  I don't have your insight into English racing but can admire from afar as most of us do.  I just know that our horses can be as good as yours.  in different ways and over different years we can come up with the world best.  If a horse can sprint further over a distance than any other horse I've known over almost 60 years.  Then she is special and should be awarded her rating.  It took an Englishman to acknowledge that Kingston Town was the best horse going around when he was a three year old.  We on the whole don't stand up for our champions and we should.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote furious Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Nov 2017 at 11:09am
they even had to re weight him as we underestimated his worth.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Red Rum Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Nov 2017 at 11:12am
Originally posted by Baguette Baguette wrote:

This is the point I was trying, obviously very badly, to make . We've been told constantly that the European horses are better than ours and we just believe it. When there really is no factual evidence that this is true. I mean Highland Reel is supposed to be pretty good but he couldn't keep up with Winx. We're a weird mob!


Highland Reel was below his best that day. Not that Winx was yet at the height of her powers either. So it's not a great race to judge them.

Highland Reel is a good Group 1 winner in Europe, but he is beaten whenever meeting the real top notchers.

If the two met and both ran to their best then - with Winx receiving the 3 lb sex allowance - I'd expect Winx to win by at least 3 lengths and probably 4.

My point is not about how your very best horses compare with ours. Likes of Winx and So You Think are exceptional. Just as in Britain the likes of Enable and Cracksman are exceptional.

It's the AVERAGE Australian Group 1 winner at 1m+ that imo is not as good as the AVERAGE British, French USA or Irish Group 1 winner at 1m+.

Although having said that, France had their worst season for many a year. Probably due to an outbreak of equine herpes and other strong viruses.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Red Rum Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Nov 2017 at 11:26am
Originally posted by furious furious wrote:

Hey I talking about alot of people in Australia.  And yes I have a certain lack of self confidence but I've worked in this industry since I was a teenager.  I don't have your insight into English racing but can admire from afar as most of us do.  I just know that our horses can be as good as yours.  in different ways and over different years we can come up with the world best.  If a horse can sprint further over a distance than any other horse I've known over almost 60 years.  Then she is special and should be awarded her rating.  It took an Englishman to acknowledge that Kingston Town was the best horse going around when he was a three year old.  We on the whole don't stand up for our champions and we should.<div id="UMS_TOOLTIP" style=": ; cursor: pointer; : 2147483647; : transparent; top: -100000px; left: -100000px;">


Seems to me whenever you have a truly brilliant racehorse like Winx or Black Caviar, Australians know about it and shout it from the rooftops. You also rightly recognised So You Think as a well above average Group 1 winner and told everyone. I knew about SYT a long time before O'Brien took him over.

Yes, I agree the best Australian horses "can be as good as" European or USA's best. As I said, it's the comparisson of AVERAGE Group 1 winners at 1m+ where there's imo a difference in ability.
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