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Question Regarding Kiwi (NZ)
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Jamal View Drop Down
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    Posted: 15 Nov 2018 at 10:12am
Hi everyone,

I have a question and would like your thoughts please.

It is often spoken about that Vintage Crop (1993), Rekindling (2017) and Cross Counter (2018) are thhe only horses to win the Melbourne Cup without having a run in Australia before the Cup.

However I was looking through the Cup winners and their lead-up races and I came across Kiwi - the 1983 Cup winner.

Kiwi's last start was in New Zealand, in the Egmont Cup at 2100m at Hawera.

So technically...Kiwi can also be added to the list of Cup winners to win the Cup without a prior start in Australia? It's seems obvious...but am I missing something?


Cheers,
Jamal.
Australian racing is only good up to 1400m in terms of world standards when it comes to depth/quality in numbers
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Passing Through View Drop Down
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http://millersguide.identika.com.au/past-champions/kiwi.htm
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Jamal View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Passing Through Passing Through wrote:

http://millersguide.identika.com.au/past-champions/kiwi.htm



So i was correct then
Australian racing is only good up to 1400m in terms of world standards when it comes to depth/quality in numbers
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Looks like it Jamal
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Read a lovely story once of the day "Snowy Lupten the future trainer of Kiwi walked out the door to go to the yearling sales, he hadn't gone one step outside before the missus called out to him where he was going " to the yearling sales" he replied, " well if you buy one make sure it's a chestnut and it's by Blarney Kiss", and that's the story how he came home with that chestnut colt, I wonder what went through Les Bridge's mind when a chestnut colt also by Blarney Kiss waltzed into his stable with the name of Kensei, I was sitting in a pub almost on the edge of the Simpson desert with a mate of mine and related this story , needless to say it was a big big evening, memories of the cup are always eventful in my life.
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New Zealand is basically Australia anyway.
Not really an import.
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Originally posted by Prince of Penzance Prince of Penzance wrote:

New Zealand is basically Australia anyway.
Not really an import.


If that was correct then "Ireland is basically Britain anyway"..... Which after being Ireland these last 3 weeks proves to me that it ain't so..... 
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Jamal View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Prince of Penzance Prince of Penzance wrote:

New Zealand is basically Australia anyway.
Not really an import.


Disagree with you there. Both are different countries. If I want to travel to New Zealand..then I need a passport and why?? Because New Zealand is another country.

At tje end of the day...I class internationally trained horses as a horse that is NOT trained in Australia and that includes New Zealand.

What Kiwi achieved in 1983 (won the Cup in Australia without a run prior to Cup win) is exactly what Vintage Crop (1993), Rekindling (2017) and Cross Counter (2018) did in their reslective years.
Australian racing is only good up to 1400m in terms of world standards when it comes to depth/quality in numbers
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New Zealand has more in common with Victoria than Western Australia does......
reductio ad absurdum
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Originally posted by djebel djebel wrote:

New Zealand has more in common with Victoria than Western Australia does......


Did the Maoris migrate from Wimmera?
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The whole Melbourne Cup lead-ups have changed. Back in the previous century many NZ horses ran in the MC without a lead-up run in Australia. In other words Kiwi wasn't the 1st. We'd have to get a list of them to see how many and therefore how remarkable Kiwi's feat was.

I agree with Djebel though because the flight from perth to Melbourne is probably similar or longer than the flight from Auckland to Melbourne. Plus horses aren't changing hemispheres which is the big obstacle many face.
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Originally posted by kavg kavg wrote:

The whole Melbourne Cup lead-ups have changed. Back in the previous century many NZ horses ran in the MC without a lead-up run in Australia. In other words Kiwi wasn't the 1st. We'd have to get a list of them to see how many and therefore how remarkable Kiwi's feat was.


No, Kiwi was the first.  

There is not another winner of the Melbourne Cup prior to Kiwi who won the Cup at its first Australian start.  
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Originally posted by Tontonan Tontonan wrote:

Originally posted by kavg kavg wrote:

The whole Melbourne Cup lead-ups have changed. Back in the previous century many NZ horses ran in the MC without a lead-up run in Australia. In other words Kiwi wasn't the 1st. We'd have to get a list of them to see how many and therefore how remarkable Kiwi's feat was.



No, Kiwi was the first.  

There is not another winner of the Melbourne Cup prior to Kiwi who won the Cup at its first Australian start.  


True Tontonan. Kiwi was 1st to win but my point was how many have actually tried to win it 1st up from nz? Was he the 100th to try or the 1st?
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Kiwi's finish in 1983 still gives goosebumps 35 years later.  Lupton was an interesting character. When Kiwi arrived in 1983 the Wednesday before the Cup he was sent to a farm paddock on the Mornington Peninsula and Lupton himself rode him in trackwork on Derby Day.  

His subsequent record in Australia was interesting. Scratched in 1984 from the Cup by John Burke, the VRC's chief vet on Derby Day in a move some New Zealanders thought the equivalent of Trevor Chappell's underarm, he went on to the Japan Cup 3 weeks later over a less than ideal 2400 metres and finished 6th in front of Strawberry Road and Bounty Hawk.

He came back as an 8 year-old in 1985 for his first Australian start and finished 11th and returned again as a 9 year-old in 1986 to finish 4th at his first start in Australia for the season. In all, 4 Australian starts, 3 in the Melbourne Cup, the other a 3rd in the Sandown Cup.

If you can get a hold of November Gold by Max Lambert, it's full of great stories about all the NZedders in the Cup at least up until 1985.
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Image result for november gold by max lambert
reductio ad absurdum
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Interesting finds.
reductio ad absurdum
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Better value here Djebel 
https://www.marlowesbooks.com/November-Gold.-New-Zealand's-Quest-For-The-Melbourne-Cup-Lambert-Max-Book-139703?gclid=CjwKCAiAz7TfBRAKEiwAz8fKOBfdD-I9yErL8n1sglWBHYKi5aIj5AE-Nxe7P3sN5oh5X1eAfVF_XxoCpkoQAvD_BwE
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Originally posted by djebel djebel wrote:

November Gold
 
I seem to have inherited a copy of this book in my late Dad's bookcase, along with a few other 70s-80s racing books and of course many rugby ones.
 
November Gold has a small section of a few pages on each NZ Melb Cup winner, with Jack Glengarry's "Another Great Decade Of New Zealand Racing - The 1980s" having slightly more about Kiwi's overall career.  He also focused on breeding quite a bit so the horses selected like Bonecrusher/Horlicks etc are examined in some sort of breeding numbers/formula terms I won't claim to understand.  Glengarry did similar books on both the 70s and 80s, with chapters about 24 horses per book.
 
"The book covers the 1980's and 14 gallopers and 10 Sires.All the greats including Drum, Little Brown Jug, McGinty, Our Flight, Kiwi, Hunterville, Bonecrusher, Tri Belle, Kingdom Bay, Tidal Light, Poetic Prince, Empire Rose, Courier Bay, Horlicks plus Beaufort Sea, Noble Bijou, Sir Tristram, Sound Reason, Star Way, Taipan II, Three Legs, Vice Regal, Zamazaan and Zephyr Bay"
 
Also seems to be a copy of The Caulfield Cup by Maurice Cavanough which is rather fat as books go.
 
 
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November Gold is an excellent read. It has details of all the NZ Melbourne Cup runners and descriptions of the Cups in which they raced as well as plenty on other horses and the lead-up to the Cups. 

Just to give an idea of the flavour of the book; the 1964 Cup is covered in 5 pages with the stories of Polo Prince and Elkayel (2nd place-getter) as well as Bon Filou which finished 8th but had won that year's Wellington Cup as Gay Filou. The lead-up races and the favourites like Sir Dane are also covered.
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Great galloper was a Sir Dane .
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