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Question… best unraced sires

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Fiddlesticks Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Dec 2013 at 8:38pm
Thanks for the info so far, googling this stuff is uber time consuming, particularly when there are so many clever people here, I know little about thoroughbred genetics in the grand scheme of things, I just wanted to make a list and notate those stallions who were famous for breeding champs, not famous for their racing...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Blacktypepedigree Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Dec 2013 at 8:45pm
Very successful was also South African champion sire unraced NORTHERN GUEST
full brother of Try My Best and El Gran Senor.
In South Africa is now successful another unraced stallion - MOGOK
half-brother to machiavellian and sire of three G1 winners

In history, of course, NOBLE BIJOU
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fiddlesticks Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Dec 2013 at 9:12pm
Thanks heaps Blacktype...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Daraabah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Dec 2013 at 12:46pm
Alibhai matched Danehills amazing 14% stakewinners but Noble Bijou is by far the best. He sired 572 foals for 201 starters, 110 winners and 61 stakes winners (30.3% stakes winners to runners!). Noble Bijou is also the most intersting in that he loved mares by Mellay, who was also a champion NZ sire in his own right (1972/73, 2d 1973/74, 3rd 1971/72) and also UNRACED. When UNRACED Noble Bijou saw dams by UNRACED Mellay the stats are unbelievable....the cross produced 104 foals for 31 starters, 19 winners and 16 stakes winners, an incredible 51.6% stakes winners to runners.
 

 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kavg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Dec 2013 at 12:57pm
Amazing stats re Noble Bijou x Mellay cross Daraabah. Must have been plenty of unsound types considering 104 foals and only 34 starters. But 16 SW's out of 104 foals is still in the elite level.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gay3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Dec 2013 at 1:08pm
I looked them up one day & their pedigrees almost mirror each other; brilliant selection by the Stud Thumbs Up
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fiddlesticks Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Dec 2013 at 1:20pm
can someone post Noble Bijou's family tree for me...


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gay3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Dec 2013 at 1:45pm
Noble Bijou (1971) - M - 1-x
by Vaguely Noble out of Priceless Gem by Hail To Reason to 7 generations
Vaguely Noble
1965
Vienna
1957
Aureole
1950
Hyperion
1930
Gainsborough
1915
Bayardo
1906
Bay Ronald
Galicia
1893 - 3-o
1898 - 10-a
Rosedrop
1907
St Frusquin
Rosaline
1893 - 22-b
1901 - 2-n
Selene
1919
Chaucer
1900
St Simon
Canterbury Pilgrim
1881 - 11-c
1893 - 1-g
Serenissima
1913
Minoru
Gondolette
1906 - 5-c
1902 - 6-e
Angelola
1945
Donatello II
1934
Blenheim
1927
Blandford
Malva
1919 - 3-o
1919 - 1-e
Delleana
1925
Clarissimus
Duccia Di Buoninsegna
1913 - 2-s
1920 - 14-c
Feola
1933
Friar Marcus
1912
Cicero
Prim Nun
1902 - 1-l
1906 - 20
Aloe
1926
Son-In-law
Alope
1911 - 5-d
1909 - 2-f
Turkish Blood
1944
Turkhan
1937
Bahram
1932
Blandford
1919
Swynford
Blanche
1907 - 1-g
1912 - 3-o
Friar's Daughter
1921
Friar Marcus
Garron Lass
1912 - 20
1917 - 16-a
Theresina
1927
Diophon
1921
Grand Parade
Donnetta
1916 - 5-c
1900 - 2-n
Teresina
1920
Tracery
Blue Tit
1909 - 19-a
1908 - 6-d
Rusk
1935
Manna
1922
Phalaris
1913
Polymelus
Bromus
1902 - 3-f
1905 - 1-i
Waffles
1917
Buckwheat
Lady Mischief
1906 - 20-c
1903 - 22-d
Baby Polly
1924
Spearmint
1903
Carbine
Maid Of The Mint
1885 - 2-h
1897 - 1-c
Pretty Polly
1901
Gallinule
Admiration
1884 - 19-c
1892 - 14-b
Noble Lassie
1956
Nearco
1935
Pharos
1920
Phalaris
1913
Polymelus
1902
Cyllene
Maid Marian
1895 - 9-e
1886 - 3-f
Bromus
1905
Sainfoin
Cheery
1887 - 2-g
1892 - 1-i
Scapa Flow
1914
Chaucer
1900
St Simon
Canterbury Pilgrim
1881 - 11-c
1893 - 1-g
Anchora
1905
Love Wisely
Eryholme
1893 - 11-e
1898 - 13-e
Nogara
1928
Havresac II
1915
Rabelais
1900
St Simon
Satirical
1881 - 11-c
1891 - 14-a
Hors Concours
1906
Ajax
Simona
1901 - 2-i
1893 - 8-h
Catnip
1910
Spearmint
1903
Carbine
Maid Of The Mint
1885 - 2-h
1897 - 1-c
Sibola
1896
The Sailor Prince
Saluda
1880 - 19
1883 - 4-r
Belle Sauvage
1949
Big Game
1939
Bahram
1932
Blandford
1919
Swynford
Blanche
1907 - 1-g
1912 - 3-o
Friar's Daughter
1921
Friar Marcus
Garron Lass
1912 - 20
1917 - 16-a
Myrobella
1930
Tetratema
1917
The Tetrarch
Scotch Gift
1911 - 2-o
1907 - 14-a
Dolabella
1911
White Eagle
Gondolette
1905 - 5-j
1902 - 6-e
Tropical Sun
1940
Hyperion
1930
Gainsborough
1915
Bayardo
Rosedrop
1906 - 10-a
1907 - 2-n
Selene
1919
Chaucer
Serenissima
1900 - 1-g
1913 - 6-e
Brulette
1928
Bruleur
1910
Chouberski
Basse Terre
1902 - 28
1899 - 4-d
Seaweed
1916
Spearmint
Seadune
1903 - 1-c
1908 - 1-d
Priceless Gem
1963
Hail To Reason
1958
Turn-To
1951
Royal Charger
1942
Nearco
1935
Pharos
1920
Phalaris
Scapa Flow
1913 - 1-i
1914 - 13-e
Nogara
1928
Havresac II
Catnip
1915 - 8-h
1910 - 4-r
Sun Princess
1937
Solario
1922
Gainsborough
Sun Worship
1915 - 2-n
1912 - 26
Mumtaz Begum
1932
Blenheim
Mumtaz Mahal
1927 - 1-e
1921 - 9-c
Source Sucree
1940
Admiral Drake
1931
Craig An Eran
1918
Sunstar
Maid Of The Mist
1908 - 5-i
1906 - 16-h
Plucky Liege
1912
Spearmint
Concertina
1903 - 1-c
1896 - 16-a
Lavendula II
1930
Pharos
1920
Phalaris
Scapa Flow
1913 - 1-i
1914 - 13-e
Sweet Lavender
1923
Swynford
Marchetta
1907 - 1-g
1907 - 1-w
Nothirdchance
1948
Blue Swords
1940
Blue Larkspur
1926
Black Servant
1918
Black Toney
Padula
1911 - 10-c
1906 - 8-f
Blossom Time
1920
North Star III
Vaila
1914 - 4-k
1911 - 8-f
Flaming Swords
1933
Man O' War
1917
Fair Play
Mahubah
1905 - 9-e
1910 - 4-c
Exalted
1925
High Time
Lady Comfey
1916 - 1-h
1913 - 7
Galla Colors
1943
Sir Gallahad III
1920
Teddy
1913
Ajax
Rondeau
1901 - 2-i
1900 - 2-n
Plucky Liege
1912
Spearmint
Concertina
1903 - 1-c
1896 - 16-a
Rouge Et Noir
1934
St Germans
1921
Swynford
Hamoaze
1907 - 1-g
1911 - 16-h
Baton Rouge
1927
Man O' War
Baton
1917 - 4-c
1921 - 4-n
Searching
1952
War Admiral
1934
Man O' War
1917
Fair Play
1905
Hastings
1893
Spendthrift
Cinderella
1876 - A3
1885 - 21-a
Fairy Gold
1896
Bend Or
Dame Masham
1877 - 1-k
1889 - 9-e
Mahubah
1910
Rock Sand
1900
Sainfoin
Roquebrune
1887 - 2-g
1893 - 4-n
Merry Token
1891
Merry Hampton
Mizpah
1884 - 22-c
1880 - 4-c
Brushup
1929
Sweep
1907
Ben Brush
1893
Bramble
Roseville
1875 - 9
1888 - A1
Pink Domino
1897
Domino
Belle Rose
1891 - 23-b
1889 - 8-c
Annette K
1921
Harry Of Hereford
1910
John O'Gaunt
Canterbury Pilgrim
1901 - 3-e
1893 - 1-g
Bathing Girl
1915
Spearmint
Summer Girl
1903 - 1-c
1906 - 11-b
Big Hurry
1936
Black Toney
1911
Peter Pan
1904
Commando
1898
Domino
Emma C
1891 - 23-b
1892 - 12
Cinderella
1888
Hermit
Mazurka
1864 - 5-d
1878 - 2-o
Belgravia
1903
Ben Brush
1893
Bramble
Roseville
1875 - 9
1888 - A1
Bonnie Gal
1889
Galopin
Bonnie Doon
1872 - 3-i
1870 - 10-c
La Troienne
1926
Teddy
1913
Ajax
1901
Flying Fox
Amie
1896 - 7-d
1893 - 2-i
Rondeau
1900
Bay Ronald
Doremi
1893 - 3-o
1894 - 2-n
Helene De Troie
1916
Helicon
1908
Cyllene
Vain Duchess
1895 - 9-e
1897 - 22-d
Lady Of Pedigree
1910
St Denis
Doxa
1901 - 16-h
1901 - 1-s
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gay3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Dec 2013 at 1:46pm
Mellay (1961) - M - 2-i
by Never Say Die out of Meld by Alycidon to 7 generations
Never Say Die
1951
Nasrullah
1940
Nearco
1935
Pharos
1920
Phalaris
1913
Polymelus
1902
Cyllene
Maid Marian
1895 - 9-e
1886 - 3-f
Bromus
1905
Sainfoin
Cheery
1887 - 2-g
1892 - 1-i
Scapa Flow
1914
Chaucer
1900
St Simon
Canterbury Pilgrim
1881 - 11-c
1893 - 1-g
Anchora
1905
Love Wisely
Eryholme
1893 - 11-e
1898 - 13-e
Nogara
1928
Havresac II
1915
Rabelais
1900
St Simon
Satirical
1881 - 11-c
1891 - 14-a
Hors Concours
1906
Ajax
Simona
1901 - 2-i
1893 - 8-h
Catnip
1910
Spearmint
1903
Carbine
Maid Of The Mint
1885 - 2-h
1897 - 1-c
Sibola
1896
The Sailor Prince
Saluda
1880 - 19
1883 - 4-r
Mumtaz Begum
1932
Blenheim
1927
Blandford
1919
Swynford
1907
John O'Gaunt
Canterbury Pilgrim
1901 - 3-e
1893 - 1-g
Blanche
1912
White Eagle
Black Cherry
1905 - 5-j
1892 - 3-o
Malva
1919
Charles O'Malley
1907
Desmond
Goody Two Shoes
1896 - 16-c
1899 - 5-h
Wild Arum
1911
Robert Le Diable
Marliacea
1899 - 1-k
1902 - 1-e
Mumtaz Mahal
1921
The Tetrarch
1911
Roi Herode
1904
Le Samaritain
Roxelane
1895 - 2-h
1894 - 1-k
Vahren
1897
Bona Vista
Castania
1889 - 4-f
1889 - 2-o
Lady Josephine
1912
Sundridge
1898
Amphion
Sierra
1886 - 12-c
1889 - 2-g
Americus Girl
1905
Americus
Palotta
1892 - A2
1893 - 9-c
Singing Grass
1944
War Admiral
1934
Man O' War
1917
Fair Play
1905
Hastings
1893
Spendthrift
Cinderella
1876 - A3
1885 - 21-a
Fairy Gold
1896
Bend Or
Dame Masham
1877 - 1-k
1889 - 9-e
Mahubah
1910
Rock Sand
1900
Sainfoin
Roquebrune
1887 - 2-g
1893 - 4-n
Merry Token
1891
Merry Hampton
Mizpah
1884 - 22-c
1880 - 4-c
Brushup
1929
Sweep
1907
Ben Brush
1893
Bramble
Roseville
1875 - 9
1888 - A1
Pink Domino
1897
Domino
Belle Rose
1891 - 23-b
1889 - 8-c
Annette K
1921
Harry Of Hereford
1910
John O'Gaunt
Canterbury Pilgrim
1901 - 3-e
1893 - 1-g
Bathing Girl
1915
Spearmint
Summer Girl
1903 - 1-c
1906 - 11-b
Boreale
1938
Vatout
1926
Prince Chimay
1915
Chaucer
1900
St Simon
Canterbury Pilgrim
1881 - 11-c
1893 - 1-g
Gallorette
1907
Gallinule
Orlet
1884 - 19-c
1891 - 8-k
Vasthi
1921
Sans Souci II
1904
Le Roi Soleil
Sanctimony
1895 - 5-f
1896 - 3-n
Vaya
1909
Beppo
Waterhen
1903 - 2-d
1894 - 3-c
Galaday II
1927
Sir Gallahad III
1920
Teddy
1913
Ajax
Rondeau
1901 - 2-i
1900 - 2-n
Plucky Liege
1912
Spearmint
Concertina
1903 - 1-c
1896 - 16-a
Sunstep
1916
Sunstar
1908
Sundridge
Doris
1898 - 2-g
1898 - 5-i
Ascenseur
1911
Eager
Skyscraper
1894 - 1-i
1900 - 1-n
Meld
1952
Alycidon
1945
Donatello II
1934
Blenheim
1927
Blandford
1919
Swynford
1907
John O'Gaunt
Canterbury Pilgrim
1901 - 3-e
1893 - 1-g
Blanche
1912
White Eagle
Black Cherry
1905 - 5-j
1892 - 3-o
Malva
1919
Charles O'Malley
1907
Desmond
Goody Two Shoes
1896 - 16-c
1899 - 5-h
Wild Arum
1911
Robert Le Diable
Marliacea
1899 - 1-k
1902 - 1-e
Delleana
1925
Clarissimus
1913
Radium
1903
Bend Or
Taia
1877 - 1-k
1892 - 3-c
Quintessence
1900
St Frusquin
Margarine
1893 - 22-b
1887 - 2-s
Duccia Di Buoninsegna
1920
Bridge Of Earn
1906
Cyllene
Santa Brigida
1895 - 9-e
1898 - 8-g
Dutch Mary
1915
William The Third
Pretty Polly
1898 - 2-d
1901 - 14-c
Aurora
1936
Hyperion
1930
Gainsborough
1915
Bayardo
1906
Bay Ronald
Galicia
1893 - 3-o
1898 - 10-a
Rosedrop
1907
St Frusquin
Rosaline
1893 - 22-b
1901 - 2-n
Selene
1919
Chaucer
1900
St Simon
Canterbury Pilgrim
1881 - 11-c
1893 - 1-g
Serenissima
1913
Minoru
Gondolette
1906 - 5-c
1902 - 6-e
Rose Red
1924
Swynford
1907
John O'Gaunt
1901
Isinglass
La Fleche
1890 - 3-m
1889 - 3-e
Canterbury Pilgrim
1893
Tristan
Pilgrimage
1878 - 10-d
1875 - 1-g
Marchetta
1907
Marco
1892
Barcaldine
Novitiate
1878 - 23
1882 - 3-k
Hettie Sorrel
1891
Peter
Venus' Looking Glass
1876 - 9-e
1885 - 1-w
Daily Double
1943
Fair Trial
1932
Fairway
1925
Phalaris
1913
Polymelus
1902
Cyllene
Maid Marian
1895 - 9-e
1886 - 3-f
Bromus
1905
Sainfoin
Cheery
1887 - 2-g
1892 - 1-i
Scapa Flow
1914
Chaucer
1900
St Simon
Canterbury Pilgrim
1881 - 11-c
1893 - 1-g
Anchora
1905
Love Wisely
Eryholme
1893 - 11-e
1898 - 13-e
Lady Juror
1919
Son-In-law
1911
Dark Ronald
1905
Bay Ronald
Darkie
1893 - 3-o
1889 - 9-b
Mother In Law
1906
Matchmaker
Be Cannie
1892 - 22-b
1891 - 5-d
Lady Josephine
1912
Sundridge
1898
Amphion
Sierra
1886 - 12-c
1889 - 2-g
Americus Girl
1905
Americus
Palotta
1892 - A2
1893 - 9-c
Doubleton
1938
Bahram
1932
Blandford
1919
Swynford
1907
John O'Gaunt
Canterbury Pilgrim
1901 - 3-e
1893 - 1-g
Blanche
1912
White Eagle
Black Cherry
1905 - 5-j
1892 - 3-o
Friar's Daughter
1921
Friar Marcus
1912
Cicero
Prim Nun
1902 - 1-l
1906 - 20
Garron Lass
1917
Roseland
Concertina
1912 - 26
1896 - 16-a
Double Life
1926
Bachelor's Double
1906
Tredennis
1898
Kendal
St Marguerite
1883 - 16-b
1879 - 4-n
Lady Bawn
1902
Le Noir
Milady
1889 - 29
1886 - 21-a
St Joan
1918
Willbrook
1911
Grebe
Nora Gough
1897 - 1-i
1900 - 5-h
Flo Desmond
1913
Desmond
Flighty Flo
1896 - 16-c
1905 - 2-i
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Fiddlesticks Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Dec 2013 at 2:35pm
Thanks a bunch Gay..
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Daraabah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Dec 2013 at 5:29pm
The story of Alibhai is also really interesting (if only for breeding geeks) in that Louis B Mayer, head of Meto-Goldwyn-Mayer, tried to buy Hyperion from Lord Derby and offerred one million dollars to which Lord Derby made his famous reply of, 'Though England may be in ruins (referring to WW2), Hyperion shall never leave these shores'. So Mayer then went after a son of Hyperion and ended up with Alibhai who is said to have broke a track record in a mile workout when he bowed and never raced.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote John H Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Dec 2013 at 6:12pm
With due respect, I do think Daraabah's figures re Noble Bijou are not that accurate.

Bloodhound lists 745 named foals by Noble Bijou for 598 starters, 410 winners & 68 SWs.

Noble Bijou sired 7 of his 10 Gr 1 winners from Mellay mares & 20 of his 68 SWs.

Balloch, the sire of 1952 Melbourne Cup winner Dalray, was another Champion NZ-based sire which never raced.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Daraabah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Dec 2013 at 7:11pm
...and just looked him up on NZ Breeders Association website which says 790 foals and 65 SW with 6 of his 10 group 1 winners out of Mellay mares...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nostradamus II Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Dec 2013 at 7:16pm
I wrote this for my site (Stats from RISA)

Noble Bijou (1971) was an unraced son of breedshaper Vaguely Noble out of Priceless Gem by the important influence Hail To Reason out of Searching by champion War Admiral out of Big Hurry by Black Toney out of breedshaper La Troienne. This is the 1x (La Troienne) branch of the Penelope (1-o) family via daughter Web (1s). He was imported to White Robe Lodge Stud by the Anderton's in 1974. 

Mellay (1961) was also unraced  by Nasrullah's staying son Never Say Die out of Meld by influential Alycidon out of Daily Double by breedshaper Fair Trial out of Doubleton by Blandford's son Bahram. This is the 2i female family stretching back to Crucifix (1837) by Priam out of Octaviana. Mellay died the same year that Noble Bijou was imported yet these two seemingly unconnected and unraced stallions fused their genes like a clap of thunder and churned out many outstanding offspring in both New Zealand and Australia. Why is this so?

Well, I believe that the outstanding breeding that shaped both sires and not shown on the racecourse plus the high percentage of very same potent ancestors carried in their genotypes contributed to their outstanding success. Both Mellay and Noble Bijou were outstanding in their own right through their progeny but the bringing together of Noble Bijou with Mellay mares ascended great heights well beyond chance. When we compare their pedigrees to 4 generations, we see Noble Bijou with Hyperion, Nearco, War Admiral 4x3x3 and Mellay with Nearco, War Admiral, Hyperion 3x3x4. Both Hyperion and Nearco are sex balanced, ie through both sons and daughters. War Admiral is channelled through daughters only. Another step back in the pedigree and the background explodes with duplications of potent ancestors: further Hyperion, Nearco and reinforcements of Bahram, Donatello II, Sir Gallahad III and the brothers Fairway and Pharos. 

Noble Bijou sired 572 foals of racing age for 201 starters, 110 winners, 61 stakes winners (30.3% stakes winners to runners). Mellay's daughters produced 589 foals of racing age for 144 starters, 81 winners, 43 stakes winners (29.8%).

The Noble Bijou over mares by Mellay cross produced 104 foals of racing age, 31 starters, 19 winners, 16 stakes winners, an incredible 51.6% stakes winners to runners. 

These undeniably top class runners included:
Alibhai (Rawson Stakes, Tancred Stakes, Rosehill Guineas, Caulfield Stakes)
Allez Bijou (Wagga Gold Cup, The Dalgety, Rawson Stakes, Sandown Cup, Geelong Cup)
Be Noble (South African Derby, Greyville Administrator's Champion Juvenile Stakes)
Noble Ambition (AJC Carbine Club Stakes)
Our Sophia (AJC Oaks, QTC GRand Prix Stakes)
Powley (White Robe Lodge Hcp, WRC George Adams Hcp, Southland Guineas, Dunedin Guineas, Gore Guineas, NZ 1000 Guineas)
Prince Kumai (Benson and Hedges Gold Cup twice, Air NZ Hazlett Stakes, Mitchelson Cup)
Prince Majestic (Foxbridge Plate, P.J. O'Shea Stakes, Tattersall's Cup, Queen Elizabeth Stakes, Tancred Stakes, Tauranga Classic, Taranaki Stakes, Spring Champion Stakes, Hawkes Bay Guineas, Wanganui Guineas)
Robinski (Benson and Hedges Gold Cup, Lion Brown Stakes, Bay Meadows Breeders Cup Hcp)
Rouge Bijou (Tattersall's Cup)
Shorty Bijou (Timaru Cup)
Taciturn (South Island Thoroughbred Breeders Stakes, Dunedin Guineas)
The Dimple (Canterbury Breeders Stakes, Timaru Cup twice, James Hazlett Stakes)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fiddlesticks Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Dec 2013 at 7:34pm
Good read Nostra, can I ask did Noble Bijou or Mellay have either full brothers or sisters to race or unraced..?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Second Chance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Dec 2013 at 8:07pm
With respect, RISA's stats are less than correct.  This may be more helpful:
 
Winner of ten champion sire titles, including five New Zealand General Sire premierships, and the only stallion to become New Zealand's champion sire and champion broodmare sire in the same season (1992-93). Noble Bijou made a serious contribution to Australasian racing as the sire of the kind of top-class, fast staying horses for which New Zealand has long been celebrated. Given that his progeny were most effective beyond 1600 metres, generally needed time to mature, and that he wasn't based in the Waikato or the Hunter Valley, Noble Bijou's statistics are remarkable: 65 SW (8.2%) from 790 foals. His record includes ten Group One winners: magnificent 1994 NZ Horse of the Year THE PHANTOM and his brother, joint champion Australasian 3yo THE PHANTOM CHANCE, champion Australasian older horse ALIBHAI, brilliant filly POWLEY, top-class Cup stayer LOMONDY, Oaks winners OUR SOPHIIA & LADY LIBERTY, South African Derby winner BE NOBLE & ALLEZ BIJOU. Yes, six of them were out of mares by Noble Bijou's champion predecessor at White Robe, Mellay, but Mellay mares were largely what he had to work with. A wider range of mates may well have produced even better results!
He never made the racetrack, despite being a half-brother, by a champion, to champion mare ALLEZ FRANCE, out of an outstanding American mare descended from La Troienne. He more than redeemed himself at stud and earned the permanent gratitude of New Zealand breeders. Noble Bijou was retired from stud duties after the 1993 season, and died in November 1994. - April 2006
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oneonesit Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Dec 2013 at 8:18pm

Also found Nostra's post interesting...but from a different angle. I am a breeding ignoramus...never owned a horse....& probably unlikely to. Lets just say my major interest is in the punting side of the game...& am honest enough to say I am in the "mug punter " category. However, just reading the above stats I think I may well not be quite that bad off in comparison to the poor unfortunates that actually dig deep to buy these animals. I mean, buy a Noble Bijou & you had a 35% chance of it getting to the track....& only a 19% chance of it winning "a" race. Similarly, Mellays daughters had a 24% chance of ever racing & 14% chance of actually buying one that won a race. Now I know Nostras post was aimed at showing that these 2 produced many quality race wins...but are the raw stats typical of the breeding game ?...& if so...it would seem a bigger mugs game than race to race punting !   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fiddlesticks Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Dec 2013 at 8:21pm
He is indeed one of the most interesting horses in Australian-NZ history...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gay3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Dec 2013 at 8:25pm
Originally posted by oneonesit oneonesit wrote:


Also found Nostra's post interesting...but from a different angle. I am a breeding ignoramus...never owned a horse....& probably unlikely to. Lets just say my major interest is in the punting side of the game...& am honest enough to say I am in the "mug punter " category. However, just reading the above stats I think I may well not be quite that bad off in comparison to the poor unfortunates that actually dig deep to buy these animals. I mean, buy a Noble Bijou & you had a 35% chance of it getting to the track....& only a 19% chance of it winning "a" race. Similarly, Mellays daughters had a 24% chance of ever racing & 14% chance of actually buying one that won a race. Now I know Nostras post was aimed at showing that these 2 produced many quality race wins...but are the raw stats typical of the breeding game ?...& if so...it would seem a bigger mugs game than race to race punting !   


Perhaps it gives some an insight as to why the smaller breeders are often heard screaming for a better deal in terms of stud fees at least & bonuses from winners at best, they're basically on odds of a hiding to nothing but if they didn't keep going, where else would the stock come from?
Experience is something you gain a few minutes after you could have used it!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Second Chance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Dec 2013 at 8:27pm
These figures, with respect, are incorrect:
 
Noble Bijou sired 572 foals of racing age for 201 starters, 110 winners, 61 stakes winners (30.3% stakes winners to runners).
 
Rather more starters, far less % stakeswinners.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fiddlesticks Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Dec 2013 at 8:28pm
Now before anyone laughs at this suggestion keep in mind I don't know much about breeding...

Is it at all possible to recreate a Noble Bijou by using existing bloodlines...does that make sense..?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oneonesit Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Dec 2013 at 8:30pm
Originally posted by Gay3 Gay3 wrote:


Originally posted by oneonesit oneonesit wrote:


Also found Nostra's post interesting...but from a different angle. I am a breeding ignoramus...never owned a horse....& probably unlikely to. Lets just say my major interest is in the punting side of the game...& am honest enough to say I am in the "mug punter " category. However, just reading the above stats I think I may well not be quite that bad off in comparison to the poor unfortunates that actually dig deep to buy these animals. I mean, buy a Noble Bijou & you had a 35% chance of it getting to the track....& only a 19% chance of it winning "a" race. Similarly, Mellays daughters had a 24% chance of ever racing & 14% chance of actually buying one that won a race. Now I know Nostras post was aimed at showing that these 2 produced many quality race wins...but are the raw stats typical of the breeding game ?...& if so...it would seem a bigger mugs game than race to race punting !   


Perhaps it gives some an insight as to why the smaller breeders are often heard screaming for a better deal in terms of stud fees at least & bonuses from winners at best, they're basically on odds of a hiding to nothing but if they didn't keep going, where else would the stock come from?
I was thinking more of the folk who actually buy them !
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fiddlesticks Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Dec 2013 at 8:49pm
Fully a mugs game to buy them, particularly yearlings, not as bad when buying shares in a read to race or breeze up jobby, but still alround a total money pit for owners
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gerald Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Dec 2013 at 1:24am
Black Toney in those pedigrees. I hadn't particularly heard of him, until I read an article a few years ago.  The article also mentioned the idea that the best broodmares don't make very good racehorses, because they're too hot.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mr Prospector Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Dec 2013 at 8:47am
Originally posted by Fiddlesticks Fiddlesticks wrote:

Now before anyone laughs at this suggestion keep in mind I don't know much about breeding...

Is it at all possible to recreate a Noble Bijou by using existing bloodlines...does that make sense..?



          That's called linebreeding or inbreeding Fiddlesticks . You wouldn't try and breed a Noble Bijou exactly but you could use stock carrying him in a pedigree and reinforce the important and effective lines within that pedigree via both the Stallion and the mare to upgrade in the resultant foal . The skill is in figuring out what those lines are .
          When you linebreed though certain lines though , you can often bring forward leg and other conformational faults within those lines .
          Easier said than done and that's what all breeders who are pedigree enthusiasts try and do . It's a steep slippery slope to the poor house if you get it wrong .
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote goldey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Dec 2013 at 9:29am
Very weighted to line breeding back then as it was the norm. Go back further to the late 1800s and the line breeding predominately becomes inbreeding , due to quality issues and numbers I presume , one successful one being , Orme and St Simon , Orme being a son of St Simons full sister Angelica , really shows the blowtorch effect of the Agnes family in modern times
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gonski gonski Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Dec 2013 at 9:32am
Originally posted by Fiddlesticks Fiddlesticks wrote:

Fully a mugs game to buy them, particularly yearlings, not as bad when buying shares in a read to race or breeze up jobby, but still alround a total money pit for owners

The mug who bought the RATKI colt for 4k that won this years vic derby might not agree.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fiddlesticks Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Dec 2013 at 1:56pm
Originally posted by Mr Prospector Mr Prospector wrote:

Originally posted by Fiddlesticks Fiddlesticks wrote:

Now before anyone laughs at this suggestion keep in mind I don't know much about breeding...

Is it at all possible to recreate a Noble Bijou by using existing bloodlines...does that make sense..?



          That's called linebreeding or inbreeding Fiddlesticks . You wouldn't try and breed a Noble Bijou exactly but you could use stock carrying him in a pedigree and reinforce the important and effective lines within that pedigree via both the Stallion and the mare to upgrade in the resultant foal . The skill is in figuring out what those lines are .
          When you linebreed though certain lines though , you can often bring forward leg and other conformational faults within those lines .
          Easier said than done and that's what all breeders who are pedigree enthusiasts try and do . It's a steep slippery slope to the poor house if you get it wrong .


ahh so that's what it's called, cheers now I'm up to speed..

Gonski, that is one example out of how many...?

I'm sure the idiot who bought Sunlines first foal agrees with me..



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Daraabah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Feb 2014 at 8:26am
Originally posted by Fiddlesticks Fiddlesticks wrote:

Now before anyone laughs at this suggestion keep in mind I don't know much about breeding...

Is it at all possible to recreate a Noble Bijou by using existing bloodlines...does that make sense..?

Highest price at Karaka Select Sale was a Dylan Thomas colt out of Mon Beau Cheval for $190,000. The colt is out of a granddaughter of dual Gr I winner Prized Gem and out of a sister to Gr I Australian Derby winner Nom Du Jeu and a half-sister to Gr II winner Jeu De Cartes. Prized Gem is a daughter of Vaguely Attentive whose carries the Noble Bijou-Mellay cross. While Noble Bijou loved Mellay, he settled for Paper Money who also appears twice in the pedigree of Vaguely Attentive. The Dylan Thomas colt was bought for a Hong Kong owner who owns Grp 1 winner, Blazing Speed, also by Dylan Thomas. IMHO, this colt has a stronger pedigree than Blazing Speed.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fiddlesticks Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Feb 2014 at 11:57am
One to keep an eye on when we find out what it's race name is..

cheers Daraabah..
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