Yes, or at least the sireline isnt what its supposed to be. There are efforts using Quarter Horses to see where the error exists as they have different branches of the same sireline developed.

Now deep pedigree research is the path to follow.

Is there anything that breeders can use?

From my work on 159,222 colts, geldings, fillies.

This is one ingredient in the 37,057 colts (the best one).

Occurrences / Average Rating / colts in that occurrence group

type occ xxxxx count

colts 0 92.75 24008

colts 1 92.44 4121

colts 2 95.50 4747

colts 3 96.93 2201

colts 4 99.64 1121

colts 5 101.93 532

colts 6 105.67 195

colts 7 106.45 95

colts 8 116.16 19

colts 9 124.55 11

colts 10 112.25 4

colts 11 131.50 2

colts 12 134.00 1

37057

 

(I sent this to the Racing Post (UK newspaper) this week)

......................................................................................................................................................

Breeders need guidance on how to plan matings to produce good horses.

The "speed gene" was known 100+ years ago.

The Tadcaster / Bend Or debate had settled down to an acceptance that the Derby winner who ran as Bend Or was Tadcaster, again over 100 years ago.

Was the sire of Native Dancer (1950) not Polynesian (1942) as generally accepted, but Challedon (1936)?

It is mildly interesting to read about errors in the stud book.

That is safer than stating how to breed a good horse, or choose the best stallion for a mare, or select the best yearling at a sale.

It all boils down that if St Simon, Bend Or, Native Dancer ect have pedigrees which are wrong but as you are just looking for them in a pedigree then you are looking for crosses that have worked with those sires.  It doesn't matter as they are the pin points you are looking at not what came before them.

If you are trying to replicate the mix of St Simon then you are in strife if the mix is different to what is on the page.

Same as when I look at female lines.  You look at which stallions have crossed to a line and try and find them again in the stallions pedigree.  If it is say one of the above then it won't matter likewise.  That stallion worked so putting him in a pedigree should work.

It would be nice if they could put the correct pedigrees but you can only work with what is listed.

Very interesting paper and many thanks for posting on this site.

The Bend Or / Macaroni blend discovery may not be as deleterious as initially thought.

Yes substituting Tadcaster for Bend Or introduces line breeding to Banter however it is possible the effective line breeding of this blend can be attributed to Derby winner Election and hid full sister in blood the unnamed dam of Derby winner Moses.

This line breeding remains the same with either Tadcaster or Bend Or.

Regarding Harold Hampton his research started after the end of the second world war so much of it done without the aid of computers. The breadth and depth of his work makes it all the more remarkable. 

I think that what he told me back in 1987 when I visited him in Auckland

 Even though I am a keen pedigree person I found reading and following his line of thought quite challenging. Clive Harper put the remaining research into a book ( assembled as Clive put it ) " The First Scientific Principles of Thoroughbred Breeding. part 3" after Harold's death.

You are correct Breeder, Hamptons published works part 1 & 2 are, as you put it, challenging.

However there is one unshakeable, rock solid, cast iron breeding principle you can take form his work and that is, as he put it, "speed comes from the opposite strain". The clever part is working out what ancestor or ancestors a stallion is strongest too and matching a broodmare that has the opposite strain.

This of course is the very opposite way most small breeders approach mating decisions (assuming racing the progeny is the aim) 

Likewise I never saw Hampton and a computer in the same room!

Unaware of the part 3 edition would be interested in obtaining a copy if still available?

The 3rd Part is a lot bigger than Parts 1 & 2 ( about 250 pages)

It was put together by Clive and members of the Levin Breeders group.

From my copy: printed in 1997 by Book Print 

                                                  c/o B Spooner CA 

                                                        West Plaza Building

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                                                       ISBN  0-908637-19-5

 Obviously the phone number etc may not be still valid but hopefully this information helps. 

Is it simply to sex balance an ancestor?

The short answer is yes. If you go to this link:

https://www.racecafe.co.nz/forums/index.php?/forum/27-thoroughbred-breeding/&page=2" rel="nofollow - https://www.racecafe.co.nz/forums/index.php?/forum/27-thoroughbred-breeding/&page=2 and scroll down to the post Sir Tristram - et al you will find an analysis of him and his progeny done in real time using the breeding principles described. Having established Sir Tristram's strongest lines (Man O War and Spearmint), when in turn Zabeel went to stud it was possible to predict in advance what lines would best suit him. it also explains how the Eight Carat family was able to work with both sires. Essentially this is the purpose of this type of analysis, to give both the stallion and mare the best possible chance of racetrack success for the resultant progeny. On page 4 you will also find the post Star Way - et al with the same in depth analysis and breeding principles.

Trust you find it informative. As always happy to answer any questions.