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My turn for stallion advice

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Category: Horse Breeding - Public Forums
Forum Name: Broodmares
Forum Description: Mating advice and analysis
URL: https://forum.thoroughbredvillage.com.au/forum_posts.asp?TID=62574
Printed Date: 16 Apr 2024 at 4:21pm
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Topic: My turn for stallion advice
Posted By: Shrunk in the Wash
Subject: My turn for stallion advice
Date Posted: 13 Jul 2018 at 7:17pm
Any input much appreciated aside from the negative quality of the recent dam line LOL

Breed to race and below 15,000K

Dykun Vovk by Loup Sauvage out of Savage Bliss. Originally a highly rated mating from some of the "commercial" mating analyst companies

I havent seen any stats for Loup as a broodmare sire but I think he's been going okay




Replies:
Posted By: Second Chance
Date Posted: 13 Jul 2018 at 7:41pm
Shrunk, the mare in question is listed as retired so hope you've able to get her back into the Studbook.

You clearly realize the challenge you face, but have an arguably breed-to-race special for you mate, ie Needs Further in Tassie.

First off he's proving very successful if essentially in the Apple Isle, and secondly, he matches really well with the mare from a line-breeding perspective.  Further details if needed.

Over to others.



Posted By: Second Chance
Date Posted: 13 Jul 2018 at 7:51pm
Whilst closer to home, if just a little more expensive, the as-yet unproven Cluster appears to possess some positives also.




Posted By: Shrunk in the Wash
Date Posted: 13 Jul 2018 at 8:12pm
Thanks 2nd.
Yes, she dropped from the stud book but am I keen to have one more go with her.
I intentionally sent the dam to loud sauvage. I loved that mating at the time.

Tassie is a bridge too far but I’ll look at Cluster, he was certainly a talented horse


Posted By: rem286
Date Posted: 13 Jul 2018 at 11:55pm
Mikki Isle.  Deep Impact loves Loup Sauvage and you also get a cross of Nureyev and River Lady.

His first foals have gone for good money in Japan and from what I have heard he is throwing a nice type.

In my unqualified opinion, he is the best son of Deep Impact standing in Australia.


Posted By: Progold
Date Posted: 14 Jul 2018 at 12:51am
Assuming we are talking Victoria here, and also thinking that $15k is a bit more than you should really be spending on a service fee for this mare.  It is a pretty decent family of the likes of Mr Murphy and Zonda, although plenty of other decent runners like one called Siri Nelg who was more than useful if not top notch.

At the top price range, one I don't mind for the mare is Fighting Sun.  My personal feeling is that it the fee is more than you should be looking at, but the mating offers a pretty decent balance and mix of influences.

An unproven sire, and again not the cheapest option, is Holler who I think might prove a reasonable prospect.  Another overall solid mating focusing on a number of speed influences that have proven important in the family.

An underrated stallion moving back to Victoria this season is Ilovethiscity who has gotten a more than handy one in El Dorado Dreaming but that might affect his price this year.  Again breeding to a number of speed influences, but the critical part of this mating to me is that it reinforces the strength of the female line, rather than the relatively unsuccessful Loup Sauvage part of the mare's pedigree.

A more left field prospect is Lucas Cranach.  Breeding towards more of the stamina type influences that we saw successful in the likes of Zonda and Sou'Wester,  it is the type of mating that would be influenced largely on type, and of course we know little about type as far as the mare is concerned.  A weakness of the mating is that it probably reinforces the stallion side of the mare's pedigree, but not one that should be discounted out of hand.

The budget prospect is God's Own.  Again really reinforcing the female side of the mare's pedigree, and a good overall balance.   The stallion has certainly under performed, but has produced plenty of decent runners, so while we aren't expecting a stakes performer, it should be a good chance of being a sound racing prospect for relatively little outlay.


Posted By: Shrunk in the Wash
Date Posted: 14 Jul 2018 at 9:52am
So sorry progold, you put in that effort and the horse is in NSW

Sooboog and Denman seem like good matches but am I right in saying that Denman has been struggling a bit?


Posted By: Shrunk in the Wash
Date Posted: 14 Jul 2018 at 10:28am
Did some work last night and found some nice looking matches to my amateur eye.
Furnaces, Sheer talent, Stryker for cheapies
Starspangledbanner and sooboog at my upper end
Am I off the mark?


Posted By: furious
Date Posted: 14 Jul 2018 at 12:24pm
Hi shrunk in the wash.  Have a grandaughter here at the moment but will look when I get the chance.  Out with her yesterday.


Posted By: Shrunk in the Wash
Date Posted: 14 Jul 2018 at 12:44pm
Great stuff mate, enjoy that kids company. Much more rewarding than my broken down mareLOL


Posted By: furious
Date Posted: 14 Jul 2018 at 1:38pm
Ok had a quick look when I finished morning run.  The line has thrown very good horses to Danehill, Showdown, Biscay, Sostenuto, Newtown Wonder etc.

Horses I would look for in the sire are Ribot, Biscay/Bletchingly/ Luskin Star (he has Idomeneo to cross to your line of Sostenuto), Special to cross to your line of Nureyev.  More 1-w to cross to Alycidon (you get that in Luskin Star also) and nothing wrong to looking for other lines of Lalun (Bold Reason is her other son to cross to Never Bend) or Red Briar through Mill Reef and Pipe of Peace who are from the family of Red Anchor.

So you have lots to work with.  As Danehill has Ribot you pretty much can look at most stallions in Australia.  So then try to add in other lines of interest for the above.  That includes any with the Danehill/Zabeel or Danehill/Sadlers Wells or Encosta cross.  Those give you Ribot, Bold Reason (Lanlan) and Special blood.  So very potent to look for.  Plenty of them around.  Even the young stallion Adelaide who doesn't have Danehill has Mill Reef to put in that other cross to your mare.

Now Century and Showdown liked each other and Century is a son of Better Boy by My Babu from the 1-w family.  So while back a bit that blood can be looked at.

One stallion Benfica (Zabeel/Danehill cross) is also from another branch of  the female line of Dykun Vovk so that shows you that the Lonhro line should cross alright.

So as you can see alot of the above have strains of that blood.  Probably the best performed stallion in you price bracket and having some of the above lines would be Artie Schiller with Special, Bold REason and Ribot.

But of the unproven younger brigade I quite like Swear or Stratum Star.  Roman Emperor has an interesting pedigree to cross to her also.


Posted By: rem286
Date Posted: 14 Jul 2018 at 2:41pm
Mikki Isle carries Ribot, Special and Hail to Reason (sire of Bold Reason)


Posted By: Progold
Date Posted: 14 Jul 2018 at 8:08pm
So now we know that the mare is in NSW, I really wish it was in Victoria.  I think there are probably a few more interesting matings there, but having said that, NSW stallions have their attraction.  The mare seems such a risky proposition it is also hard to know exactly where to head.  There is a temptation to go with a few real budget options.

Murtajill is probably the least expensive option, advertised at $4400 but possibly a bit cheaper, and offers an interesting mating with the Rock Of Gibraltar/Riveerman relationship being a feature.  This probably breeds a little away from the female strengths.

Stryker is another at the lower level, advertised at $5500.  Probably a stronger mating with a real focus on the Showdown/Bletchingly influence in the female line of both stallion and mare.

A similar type mating to these two is Al Maher, a son of Danehill.  A pretty well performed stallion, and a solid mating so a good chance of a solid racing prospect.

Another proven stallion in Starspangledbanner who brings in a range of fertility issues unfortunately, and this makes it especially hard with the mare.  Nevertheless, it looks an attractive mating which is largely an outcross which has had considerable success in the family while still focusing more on the Australian lines of the pedigrees.

Of the unproven stallions, Headwater is another with the Danehill/Bletchingly influences that are likely to be attractive.  Again this is the top of the price range, but a good looking mating if you like the stallion.   He is in his third season, and his numbers dropped from season 1 to 2, so probably a deal to be had.

Rubick is the other unproven stallion that has appeal for me.  He brings in a lot of the positives including Rock Of Gibraltar through his female line.  His yearlings have been fairly up and down, and they will hit the track this coming season, so another that is likely to deal on price.  Fertility isn't that great but OK, and a lot comes down to physical factors especially in these two unproven stallions.

The final suggestion is again the left field one looking towards the stamina influences that have been successful in a few family members.  Much harder to find in NSW, but the interesting one here in my view is Roman Emperor.  He is getting a pretty decent record going, especially as his progeny get a bit older, and there is no surprise in that.  It is possible that he might be a better physical match than any of the others, so it will be interesting to hear a bit about the type of mare we are dealing with.


Posted By: Second Chance
Date Posted: 14 Jul 2018 at 8:32pm
Shrunk will no doubt be pleased we've now narrowed his search to about a dozen or so stallions.Smile


Posted By: linghi11
Date Posted: 14 Jul 2018 at 10:11pm
How’s everyone feeling about Headwater? The yearlings seem nice, does anyone have any in work?

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to the victor


Posted By: rem286
Date Posted: 14 Jul 2018 at 11:27pm
Headwaters oldest are weanlings.  I have a mare in foal to him and from what I have seen of the weanlings he is throwing a good type.  A lot of talk about him at the sales.  Hopefully they can run as well as they look.


Posted By: linghi11
Date Posted: 15 Jul 2018 at 3:19am
Originally posted by rem286 rem286 wrote:

Headwaters oldest are weanlings.  I have a mare in foal to him and from what I have seen of the weanlings he is throwing a good type.  A lot of talk about him at the sales.  Hopefully they can run as well as they look.


Getting ahead of myself there
I liked his progeny but just looking at his immediate family, there are quite a few very expensive milk-drinkers.

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to the victor


Posted By: Shrunk in the Wash
Date Posted: 15 Jul 2018 at 10:38am
Originally posted by Second Chance Second Chance wrote:

Shrunk will no doubt be pleased we've now narrowed his search to about a dozen or so stallions.Smile


I’m loving it 2nd

Great in put folks, glad to see my thinking was kinda on the right track looking for more of that Bletchingly blood


Posted By: Shrunk in the Wash
Date Posted: 15 Jul 2018 at 10:56am
I’ve stumbled across a stallion by the name of Skyclad, never heard of him but he ticks a lot of those crosses you guys have ment

He’s by Snitzel out of a Strategic mare. A city winner with a heap of pace by the looks of it


Posted By: Gay3
Date Posted: 15 Jul 2018 at 11:13am
http://forum.thoroughbredvillage.com.au/search_results_posts.asp?SearchID=20180715001225&KW=skyclad%20" rel="nofollow - http://forum.thoroughbredvillage.com.au/search_results_posts.asp?SearchID=20180715001225&KW=skyclad

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Wisdom has been chasing me but I've always outrun it!


Posted By: furious
Date Posted: 15 Jul 2018 at 1:44pm
Just remember you are trying to breed a winner and as most stallions don't really fire it's better to go to the best you can go to within your price range and that is not always the dearest either. You have to look at the cross, pedigree and performance.  Interesting cross yes but as a racehorse he left a bit to be desired so the chances of his getting a good one are very slim.  You could even look at the cross of Showdown through his daughter Show Day and think maybe this doesn't work.  She had 6 starts for $0 and 0 places.

You find that Loulou was much better with 2 wins but still you don't find that stakes class that perhaps is needed to bring the best out in your mare.


Posted By: Shrunk in the Wash
Date Posted: 15 Jul 2018 at 2:20pm
Originally posted by furious furious wrote:

Just remember you are trying to breed a winner and as most stallions don't really fire it's better to go to the best you can go to within your price range and that is not always the dearest either.



A great reminder mate


Posted By: linghi11
Date Posted: 15 Jul 2018 at 8:58pm
Originally posted by Shrunk in the Wash Shrunk in the Wash wrote:

Originally posted by furious furious wrote:

Just remember you are trying to breed a winner and as most stallions don't really fire it's better to go to the best you can go to within your price range and that is not always the dearest either.



A great reminder mate


Please give a thought to type as well when breeding - pedigree is just letters on a page if you’re not getting a physical specimen capable of running. Post a picture etc.

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to the victor


Posted By: Shrunk in the Wash
Date Posted: 03 Aug 2018 at 8:53pm
Thanks for all the advice folks but for multiple reasons I’ve decided to go to Furnaces. It was a tough decision.

Gay, any chance you could post one of those 7 or 8 generation snapshots that you did for storm siren


Posted By: Gay3
Date Posted: 03 Aug 2018 at 9:10pm
Click image to enlarge

https://postimg.cc/image/leq7rgcl7/" rel="nofollow">

https://postimg.cc/image/yvn6aipjf/" rel="nofollow">


-------------
Wisdom has been chasing me but I've always outrun it!


Posted By: Second Chance
Date Posted: 03 Aug 2018 at 9:26pm
Well Shrunk, you'll only have yourself to congratulate should the time come.  Big smile


Posted By: Shrunk in the Wash
Date Posted: 04 Aug 2018 at 12:32pm
you're not wrong mate.
I really like the balance of that pedigree that Gay kindly put up for me.
Besides that, I always had an opinion of Furnaces as a horse and stallion prospect.
Finally, he's standing only an hour away from where the mare is even though thats not a major factor


Posted By: niki
Date Posted: 30 Jun 2019 at 11:32pm
Originally posted by Shrunk in the Wash Shrunk in the Wash wrote:

Thanks for all the advice folks but for multiple reasons I’ve decided to go to Furnaces. It was a tough decision.

Gay, any chance you could post one of those 7 or 8 generation snapshots that you did for storm siren

SITW do you know where furnaces is standing in 2019?

Thank you
Smile


Posted By: acacia alba
Date Posted: 01 Jul 2019 at 1:49am
Last I heard Furnaces was at Allendale Park, John Todd,s place out near Bathurst .  Has he moved then ?


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animals before people.


Posted By: Shawy38
Date Posted: 01 Jul 2019 at 8:30am
Yeah that’s right AA
He stood there last year at $5500 after being at Aquis the year before at $9900


Posted By: Shrunk in the Wash
Date Posted: 01 Jul 2019 at 9:32am
Correct folks.
Niki, I’ve sent you a private message

Cheers


Posted By: niki
Date Posted: 01 Jul 2019 at 11:07am
Thank you Smile


Posted By: niki
Date Posted: 01 Jul 2019 at 11:21am
Originally posted by Shawy38 Shawy38 wrote:


He stood there last year at $5500 after being at Aquis the year before at $9900

Any information about why Aquis moved Furnaces on after one season?

Thank you Star


Posted By: Shawy38
Date Posted: 01 Jul 2019 at 11:31am
I’m not sure of the reasons.
I just browsed his history in the studbook and that’s what came up.


Posted By: Shrunk in the Wash
Date Posted: 01 Jul 2019 at 12:34pm
My understanding is that He’s got a low libido which meant he wasn’t going to be a commercial option for a big stud.

From memory he could only serve a few a day
The small amount he gets at Allandale means it won’t be a problem.


Posted By: Shrunk in the Wash
Date Posted: 11 Dec 2019 at 5:25pm
my Furnaces filly has been born.

Looking forward to getting out to Allandale to see her



  https://postimages.org/" rel="nofollow">




Posted By: Shrunk in the Wash
Date Posted: 11 Dec 2019 at 5:26pm
not the greatest photo to gauge confirmation but I’ll rectify that soon


Posted By: Second Chance
Date Posted: 11 Dec 2019 at 5:38pm
Mare and foal look great.  BOL Shrunk.Star


Posted By: Shrunk in the Wash
Date Posted: 11 Dec 2019 at 7:12pm
thanks 2nds. It is all about luck. God I hope for some 🤗


Posted By: Shrunk in the Wash
Date Posted: 22 Jan 2021 at 6:02pm
13 months down The  track out little late girl is getting a spurt on. 

Late foal but we’re in no rush 

https://postimages.org/" rel="nofollow">



Posted By: Second Chance
Date Posted: 22 Jan 2021 at 6:09pm
Only a baby yet.  Best of luck with her Shrunk.


Posted By: Shrunk in the Wash
Date Posted: 22 Jan 2021 at 6:24pm
Cheers


Posted By: TJMitchell
Date Posted: 22 Jan 2021 at 6:34pm
Oh this is awesome. Got the whole story going. Hope she's a ripper!!

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Time is a flat circle


Posted By: Carioca
Date Posted: 22 Jan 2021 at 6:47pm
What's the breeding Shrunk ?


Posted By: furious
Date Posted: 22 Jan 2021 at 6:55pm

Unnamed  
Furnaces (AUS)
Bay 2012
Exceed and Excel
Bay 2000
Danehill
Bay 1986
Danzig
Bay 1977
Northern Dancer
Pas de Nom
1961
1968
2-d
7-a
Razyana
Bay 1981
His Majesty
Spring Adieu
1968
1974
4-d
2-d
Patrona
Chestnut 1994
Lomond
Bay 1980
Northern Dancer
My Charmer
1961
1969
2-d
13-c
Gladiolus
Chestnut 1974
Watch Your Step
Back Britches
1956
1964
6-a
23-b
Heat of the Fire
Bay 2003
Strategic
Chestnut 1992
Zeditave
Chestnut 1985
The Judge
Summoned
1975
1978
2-b
1-n
Sudden Impulse
Chestnut 1980
Luskin Star
Sweet Embrace
1974
1964
2-e
2-g
Bon Fire
Brown 1998
Octagonal
Brown 1992
Zabeel
Eight Carat
1986
1975
16-c
9-c
Pampas Fire
Bay 1988
Prince True
Summoned
1981
1978
13-c
1-n
Dykun Vovk (AUS)
Chestnut 2001
Loup Sauvage
Bay 1994
Riverman
Bay 1969
Never Bend
Bay 1960
Nasrullah
Lalun
1940
1952
9-c
19-b
River Lady
Bay 1963
Prince John
Nile Lily
1953
1954
14-f
10-a
Louveterie
Bay 1986
Nureyev
Bay 1977
Northern Dancer
Special
1961
1969
2-d
5-h
Lupe
Bay 1967
Primera
Alcoa
1954
1957
4-c
1-k
Savage Bliss
Chestnut 1991
Red Anchor
Chestnut 1981
Sea Anchor
Chestnut 1972
Alcide
Anchor
1955
1966
2-f
11-d
Decoy Girl
Chestnut 1973
Decoy Boy
Red Robe
1967
1958
1-m
22-d
Lyric Star
Bay 1983
Bletchingly
Brown 1970
Biscay
Coogee
1965
1959
2-o
7-a
Verdi
Chestnut 1977
Showdown
Hot Rhythm
1961
1967
6-b
22-c
 Ancestor duplications:Northern Dancer5m,5m x 5m Summoned5m,5f x    


Posted By: Carioca
Date Posted: 22 Jan 2021 at 7:06pm
Ta furious.


Posted By: Gay3
Date Posted: 22 Jan 2021 at 7:16pm
Originally posted by Shrunk in the Wash Shrunk in the Wash wrote:

Any input much appreciated aside from the negative quality of the recent dam line LOL

Breed to race and below 15,000K

Dykun Vovk by Loup Sauvage out of Savage Bliss
. Originally a highly rated mating from some of the "commercial" mating analyst companies

I havent seen any stats for Loup as a broodmare sire but I think he's been going okay

Unless the thread went off topic & on to another mare, this is the OP Carioca Smile


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Wisdom has been chasing me but I've always outrun it!


Posted By: Carioca
Date Posted: 22 Jan 2021 at 7:32pm
It pays to open ones eyes , LOLLOL


Posted By: Shrunk in the Wash
Date Posted: 22 Jan 2021 at 10:17pm
Thanks furious, nice to see it laid out

Sadly this branch of the family, since Verdi, has gone off the rails. A lot of injury, bad luck and mismanagement.Ouch
In saying that there’s still be a heap of quality come  from other parts of the family. One sold for 950k at the millions. Call sign MAV a group winner in NZ, Dirty a work and Arcadia Queen feature in the pedigree, all be it distantly 

Been a long time since I did a catalogue page as it’s clearly not commercial and more but I’m keeping the faith that I can rectify thatLOL



Posted By: acacia alba
Date Posted: 22 Jan 2021 at 11:35pm
Best of luck Shrunky.  Thumbs Up  From small things big things grow.


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animals before people.


Posted By: Take2
Date Posted: 23 Jan 2021 at 6:46am
getting danehill into the mix via furnaces looks pretty good i reckon, as many of the names in furnaces pedigree have mixed in well with the foal's female family successfully in the past, and like it or not (some people have problems with danehill) danehill's presence (and EAE's as well) has "modernised" the pedigree somewhat 

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change is simply a destination on a journey reached by taking the first step (i said that) lol

www.3rdmillenniumbloodstock.com.au



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