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First Light Racing Charged by RV & Ash Ali

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Topic: First Light Racing Charged by RV & Ash Ali
Posted By: Sir Gov
Subject: First Light Racing Charged by RV & Ash Ali
Date Posted: 12 Jun 2018 at 8:38pm
from punters.com.au

Horse racing syndicator First Light Racing and two of its directors, Tim Wilson and Sam Kilkenny, have been charged by Racing Victoria for failing to disclose a conflict of interest in Product Disclosure Statements. 

Racing Victoria stewards have issued three charges against First Light Racing Pty Ltd and four charges against both Wilson and Kenny in relation to two syndicated horses.

On both occasions, the PDS for the horses being syndicated failed to disclose the original purchase and any conflict of interest in regards to the purchase. 

The first charge relates to Arizona Belle (High Chaparral x Danzottoa 2014 filly) who was originally purchased for $43,000 at the 2015 Gold Coast National Weanling Sale by Paul Willetts as agent for Star Band, an associated entity of FLR. 

Arizona Belle was then acquired by FLR in March 2016 as a yearling for $60,000 from Bell River Thoroughbreds Pty Ltd as agent for Star Band at the 2016 Inglis Melbourne Yearling Sale. 

The second charge relates to a Charge Forward x Trois Couleurs colt which was first purchased for $26,000 by FLR, through Willetts and employee Ashleigh Dowley at the 2015 Gold Coast National Weanling Sale. 

FLR then acquired the colt as a yearling from Widden Stud as agent for FLR at the 2018 Gold Coast Yearling Sale for $80,000. 

In issuing the charge, RV stewards contend that the PDS contained no reference to the fact that FLR owned the colt prior to the 2018 Gold Coast Yearling Sale. 

Wilson and Kilkenny are facing two charges of making a false or misleading statement or declaration and two charges of improper, dishonest and/or dishonourable action or practice. 

The charges will be heard by the Racing and Disciplinary (RAD) Board on a date to be fixed.



Replies:
Posted By: djebel
Date Posted: 12 Jun 2018 at 10:31pm
So, Does this ruin their reputation and business or is this typical horse racing shenanigans and will be business as usual  ? 

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reductio ad absurdum


Posted By: Lordy
Date Posted: 12 Jun 2018 at 11:36pm
as Far as shenanigans go with yearling sales and syndicators go this isn’t that big. Damages the reputation but doesn’t ruin it.

I imagine those that purchase share in these particular horses may be asking a few blunt questions.


Posted By: Sir Gov
Date Posted: 12 Jun 2018 at 11:40pm
We shouldn’t accept these practices irrespective of the severity.

They are downright unethical and illegal.

The yearling sales also need a cleanout.


Posted By: Lordy
Date Posted: 13 Jun 2018 at 12:20am
Any precedents for punishment of this kind of thing? Do they cop a fine or are their various licences under threat?


Posted By: Spearmint
Date Posted: 13 Jun 2018 at 11:21am
It is definitely not a good look to buy them as weanlings and then through agents buy them back as yearlings. It just looks like they a setting a false value on them to make a profit by syndicating them at an inflated price.

On the other hand I guess their explanation could be that after buying them as weanlings, they then put them on the yearling market to get a market price in a public auction.

They were then the last bidders at the sale price and therefore had a genuine market value at a public auction.

This of course presumes they did not run them up to that price at the auction


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"Nothing in the world is so powerful as an idea whose time has come"


Posted By: Lordy
Date Posted: 13 Jun 2018 at 11:36am
Originally posted by Spearmint Spearmint wrote:

It is definitely not a good look to buy them as weanlings and then through agents buy them back as yearlings. It just looks like they a setting a false value on them to make a profit by syndicating them at an inflated price.

On the other hand I guess their explanation could be that after buying them as weanlings, they then put them on the yearling market to get a market price in a public auction.

They were then the last bidders at the sale price and therefore had a genuine market value at a public auction.

This of course presumes they did not run them up to that price at the auction

Looking at the respective prices it’s quite possible that occurred. Nothing at all wrong with that. One of them $46k as a weanling and $60k as a yearling, would hardly cover costs. If they wanted to run up the price then they didn’t do it that well.

Problem is not disclosing it in the PDS, hence the charge.


Posted By: Shawy38
Date Posted: 13 Jun 2018 at 12:42pm
They knew the rules.
No sympathy.


Posted By: Red Hare
Date Posted: 13 Jun 2018 at 1:28pm
No shortage of competitors and former 1%ers lining up on Twitter to dig the boots in.

My one and only ownership experience was with FLR. My one takeaway from that time was that my next share would go through a trainer direct. Although, to be fair, that assessment would almost certainly have been influenced by TBV.

I never thought they were dodgy, I just saw them as rank amateurs that couldn't organise a root in a brothel. I don't think they're smart enough to be 'horse traders'.


Posted By: Red Hare
Date Posted: 13 Jun 2018 at 1:36pm
So much smoke and mirrors in the sales game. 

I doubt old-mate McDonald needed Ashleigh, on behalf of FLR, to put her hand up for the $825k Savabeel colt at NZ Premier a few years back... but having that sort of loot flow through your account in full and on time must do wonders for the credit rating.


Posted By: Lordy
Date Posted: 13 Jun 2018 at 2:09pm
Originally posted by Shawy38 Shawy38 wrote:

They knew the rules.
No sympathy.

Nobody offering sympathy. They broke the rules and will be penalised for it. The level of penalty is the only thing currently in question.


Posted By: ThreeBears
Date Posted: 13 Jun 2018 at 2:11pm
It just looks like they a setting a false value on them to make a profit by syndicating them at an inflated price.
As Lordy pointed out they hardly made a profit on one and just made a profit on the other. I've seen better run up jobs many times over. Do people even know the costs involved with raising the horse and putting it through public auction? 


Posted By: Sneck
Date Posted: 13 Jun 2018 at 2:29pm
Originally posted by ThreeBears ThreeBears wrote:

It just looks like they a setting a false value on them to make a profit by syndicating them at an inflated price.
As Lordy pointed out they hardly made a profit on one and just made a profit on the other. I've seen better run up jobs many times over. Do people even know the costs involved with raising the horse and putting it through public auction? 
Doesn't matter it's easier to syndicate for more using the higher value as a selling point.
If this wasn't the case why bother considering the expense? Just passing on another unnecessary expense to owners.


Posted By: Red Hare
Date Posted: 13 Jun 2018 at 2:36pm
Originally posted by ThreeBears ThreeBears wrote:

It just looks like they a setting a false value on them to make a profit by syndicating them at an inflated price.
As Lordy pointed out they hardly made a profit on one and just made a profit on the other. I've seen better run up jobs many times over. Do people even know the costs involved with raising the horse and putting it through public auction? 
The Charge Forward colt increased it's value $54k in six months. 

If that's 'hardly' or 'just', the game is cactus.


Posted By: Shawy38
Date Posted: 13 Jun 2018 at 2:37pm
Originally posted by Lordy Lordy wrote:

Originally posted by Shawy38 Shawy38 wrote:

They knew the rules.
No sympathy.

Nobody offering sympathy. They broke the rules and will be penalised for it. The level of penalty is the only thing currently in question.


Okay then


Posted By: Shawy38
Date Posted: 13 Jun 2018 at 2:37pm
captain obvious


Posted By: ThreeBears
Date Posted: 13 Jun 2018 at 2:47pm
Doesn't matter it's easier to syndicate for more using the higher value as a selling point.
If this wasn't the case why bother considering the expense? Just passing on another unnecessary expense to owners.
Again what's the cost of raising the horse from weanling to yearling? Might have been same value as price increase at sales.
 
As for  the other one I did say they made a win after costs. Can you read? Tell us the cost of transport to and from sales, rearing costs, agency fees and sales costs.
 
I'm not defending them I'm merely pointing out the insignificant gains compared to some other startling and obvious run ups over the years. I won't mention those  on this forum by name. Litigation abounds.


Posted By: ThreeBears
Date Posted: 13 Jun 2018 at 2:48pm
Second part directed at Red Hare's post Sneck not you.


Posted By: Lordy
Date Posted: 13 Jun 2018 at 4:00pm
Hard to accept the excuse that it was “an inadvertent oversight”. They forgot they bought the horses from themselves?


Posted By: 3blindmice
Date Posted: 13 Jun 2018 at 4:06pm
Much like politicians forgetting that they purchased investment properties worth millions. I guess when you have numerous properties it's easy to lose track. Amazing how many people have memory problems when it suits.


Posted By: Aurelius
Date Posted: 14 Jun 2018 at 1:11pm
Scottish Rogue Horse Profile

ProfileStatsResults

Scottish Rogue Breeding

Sire: Rothesay

Dam: Ten Eighty (NZL)

Sire of Dam: Volksraad (GBR)

Lot: 266 - 2017 Inglis NSW Classic Yearling Sale

Vendor: Glenlogan Park, Innisplain, Qld

Buyer: First Light Racing / McEvoy Mitchell Racing / Paul Willets Bloodstock

Sale Price: $45,000

Scottish Rogue OwnersFirst Light Racing Pty Ltd



Posted By: ThreeBears
Date Posted: 14 Jun 2018 at 4:10pm
Amazing how many people have memory problems when it suits.
True Mouse. It's like the mental illness plague before the courts. Timely and fashionable.


Posted By: pnclick
Date Posted: 14 Jun 2018 at 6:52pm
They appear to have put them through the sales to get a current (yearling) value on them as it makes it easier to justify the share value etc..., albeit they run up the price, but as pointed out earlier, they are not excessive increases in value from weanling to yearling. Its the buy it on March 10 for $50,000 and sell it on March 15 for $9,000 per 10% share that annoys me more than anything...

The issue is non-discloser. The individuals (linked to FLR) had obviously decided to buy the said weanlings with intent to syndicate through FLR at a higher price, and pushed that price even higher by going through the auction. Would love to know the under bidders, which unfortunately can NEVER be known...


Posted By: Sir Gov
Date Posted: 15 Jun 2018 at 10:30am
Originally posted by pnclick pnclick wrote:

They appear to have put them through the sales to get a current (yearling) value on them as it makes it easier to justify the share value etc..., albeit they run up the price, but as pointed out earlier, they are not excessive increases in value from weanling to yearling. Its the buy it on March 10 for $50,000 and sell it on March 15 for $9,000 per 10% share that annoys me more than anything...

The issue is non-discloser. The individuals (linked to FLR) had obviously decided to buy the said weanlings with intent to syndicate through FLR at a higher price, and pushed that price even higher by going through the auction. Would love to know the under bidders, which unfortunately can NEVER be known...

Another reason why all bidders are registered, however all bids should be tracked as well. 

There also needs to be some mechanism to ensure run ups & paybacks can be monitored.  Not sure how practical that is......however the sale houses should be focused on protecting investors.  If a Four Corners steps & someone rats out some of the processes (I believe both would be long term positives with short term pain) - it will be a disaster for the industry.


Posted By: pnclick
Date Posted: 16 Jun 2018 at 1:22am
Wouldn't be that hard to do. Give registered bidders a bidding card and the spotters could call that number out so it's registered.

The worse run-up was Black Caviar's half brother. Everyone in the joint seemed to know it was going to go for $5m, and the well known under bidder pushed it up to that figure....


Posted By: Lordy
Date Posted: 16 Jun 2018 at 8:53am
Put them all through eBay


Posted By: Red Hare
Date Posted: 01 Dec 2018 at 10:22am
Couple of $5k fines.


Posted By: rusty nails
Date Posted: 01 Dec 2018 at 10:27am
Originally posted by pnclick pnclick wrote:

Wouldn't be that hard to do. Give registered bidders a bidding card and the spotters could call that number out so it's registered.

The worse run-up was Black Caviar's half brother. Everyone in the joint seemed to know it was going to go for $5m, and the well known under bidder pushed it up to that figure....

What a farce that was.
The under bidder supremely confident and comfortable bidding $4.95M.

Apoplectic when his bid is called at $5M.......


Posted By: Sunline
Date Posted: 01 Dec 2018 at 11:35am
It gets better.

One of the FLR Directors is the personal accountant of Racing Minister Pakula! Now we understand the light penalty.

Let me assure you - others have lost their license to syndicate for far, far less!


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Sunline...simply supreme


Posted By: anabel
Date Posted: 01 Dec 2018 at 11:43am
Their penalty is ridiculous, you can’t go around fining trainers who advertise “partners wanted” in their horses, yet give a slap on the wrist to organised rorting by someone actually licenced.


Posted By: Prince of Penzance
Date Posted: 01 Dec 2018 at 12:02pm
Originally posted by Sunline Sunline wrote:

It gets better.

One of the FLR Directors is the personal accountant of Racing Minister Pakula! Now we understand the light penalty.

Let me assure you - others have lost their license to syndicate for far, far less!


Surely that’s a conflict of interest if I’ve ever seen one.WTF!!!!


Posted By: skippy123
Date Posted: 01 Dec 2018 at 2:06pm
Ahhhh the Integrity in Victorian Racing


Posted By: Straight arrow
Date Posted: 01 Dec 2018 at 9:59pm
RVL like schools boys in play ground getting told off by teachers? Kicking the dirt with there shoes wondering how do we hide what we have done!! It feels like? If you are bring owners into racing? RVL look the other way if you are ripping innocent people? Just keep the horses coming in and going around in circles!! These poor everyday people want to get in? But have to find away to get lessons to swim through the sharks


Posted By: Straight arrow
Date Posted: 02 Dec 2018 at 3:30pm
RVL have fallen asleep at the wheel when it comes to penalties for some in the game. Unless it's smacking them in the face ? That obvious? Like the Aquanita cheating? They do not touch the top of ladder! Another Ollie? What happened there? Getting caught doing what he did? Was a lifetime offence!! I'm only getting started


Posted By: Prince of Penzance
Date Posted: 02 Dec 2018 at 4:16pm
Rules for one , another rule for someone else.


Posted By: Straight arrow
Date Posted: 02 Dec 2018 at 4:44pm
No ! They worry about press and what it might do to there industry. If they got rid of crooks ? People would have more faith!! How can a jockey back another horse while ridding second favourite and get 9 months suspension? How can a leading jockey cripple another jockey? Then six months later police report he was given money to interfere with another runner? No penalty!! Work that out?? Someone ! Should not have a license to ride


Posted By: acacia alba
Date Posted: 02 Dec 2018 at 10:04pm
What about the Sydney , top notch, jockey who had the rumble with a taxi driver ??     Its supposed to hit the headlines sooner rather than later.  
If it had been a footy player it would be all over the front pages now .    But a jock and it just creeps under the radar. 


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animals before people.


Posted By: Straight arrow
Date Posted: 03 Dec 2018 at 6:16am
Having a fight with a taxi driver! Wouldn't even meet an inquiry withRVL when you having a leading jockey admitting to police to taking money to interfere with another jockey 6/10 months after he caused a leading mel rider to become paraplegic! RVL sitting on hands. Papers printed it they do nothing. No wonder bailey left the state his hands completely tied


Posted By: Red Hare
Date Posted: 03 Dec 2018 at 8:05am
Originally posted by Sunline Sunline wrote:

It gets better.

One of the FLR Directors is the personal accountant of Racing Minister Pakula! Now we understand the light penalty.

Let me assure you - others have lost their license to syndicate for far, far less!
Is that confirmed, or just piss talk in the twittersphere?


Posted By: Red Hare
Date Posted: 03 Dec 2018 at 8:11am
Originally posted by Straight arrow Straight arrow wrote:

Having a fight with a taxi driver! Wouldn't even meet an inquiry withRVL when you having a leading jockey admitting to police to taking money to interfere with another jockey 6/10 months after he caused a leading mel rider to become paraplegic! RVL sitting on hands. Papers printed it they do nothing. No wonder bailey left the state his hands completely tied
Which paper? Post the link.

Who is the injured rider?


Posted By: Straight arrow
Date Posted: 03 Dec 2018 at 9:33am
Red Hare. Google Zaria, police , bribe, racing, the age printed story of receiving $5000 to interfere with rival runner. Police have evidence. I think was ridding for Darley at that time? Was immediately sacked. Google jockey Brereton race fall 2010 . Approx 10 months berfore. Brereton is now paraplegic after Zarhra caused him to fall. I think workcover just finished seeing zarha for damages.


Posted By: Straight arrow
Date Posted: 03 Dec 2018 at 9:36am
Sorry word was not seeing! Workcover have just finished sueing zarha for damages ! Not jockey


Posted By: Lordy
Date Posted: 03 Dec 2018 at 2:30pm
Originally posted by Red Hare Red Hare wrote:

Originally posted by Sunline Sunline wrote:

It gets better.

One of the FLR Directors is the personal accountant of Racing Minister Pakula! Now we understand the light penalty.

Let me assure you - others have lost their license to syndicate for far, far less!
Is that confirmed, or just piss talk in the twittersphere?

Say for arguments sake it's true. Accountants have many clients but If one is the racing minister does that preclude them from race horse ownership?

It's the racing industry. Everybody is connected somehow. Has been the case since forever.


Posted By: Straight arrow
Date Posted: 03 Dec 2018 at 2:46pm
It's that old saying? It's only a rort if you are not involved!! Walks like a duck! Quacks like a duck! You tell me?


Posted By: goldey
Date Posted: 03 Dec 2018 at 4:50pm
Risk free pin hooking could be a desription of their conduct .


Posted By: Straight arrow
Date Posted: 03 Dec 2018 at 6:04pm
Just a nice way of saying they ran the price up! Sounds sweeter


Posted By: Lordy
Date Posted: 04 Dec 2018 at 8:57am
Buy backs are common practise at the sales.  In a racing industry sense its no big deal.  Not disclosing in the PDS was the problem.  I'd think this would breach their AFS licence.  Has any action been taken on that side?


Posted By: Straight arrow
Date Posted: 04 Dec 2018 at 12:24pm
It's just another major headache for RVL ? To sort out probably one of the most corrupted systems in the country!! We talk about used car sales and real Eastgate agents? The auction ring in Australia will eat you alive. I have had a lot of experience in throngs on


Posted By: Straight arrow
Date Posted: 04 Dec 2018 at 12:26pm
Sorry I did not check spell check. ( in the goings on) it ment to Reid. And I know spelling was not an A when I was schooled. Sorry


Posted By: Straight arrow
Date Posted: 06 Dec 2018 at 3:18pm
Sorry members? What has been the wash up with this shonky mob FLR ? Will they be just as active again in the forthcoming sales? Problem? Trainers will not complain! I have noticed that first light have a big spread of trainers


Posted By: Shawy38
Date Posted: 17 Jul 2020 at 11:03am

VRC Oaks winner Aristia and recent city winner Rich Hips are at the centre of bitter dispute between leading syndicator First Light Racing and owner Ahamed Mohamed Ali.

The matter is before the https://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/superracing/apprentice-jockeys-lachlan-king-and-teo-nugent-to-face-racing-victoria-stewards-inquiry/news-story/048bc9f7dbac864bd90b4cdc23e2b382" rel="nofollow -  Victorian Civil Administrative Tribunal  after Alis shares in four horses were to be transferred out of his name because he owed First Light between $13,000-15,000 in training fees.

Ali issued proceedings last month against First Light Racing, including an application for urgent interim objections which would restrain First Light from selling his shares in Aristia, Rich Hips, Bellevita and Aureum.

The injunction also called for the blocking of the sale of the horses and distribution of prizemoney in a way which would deprive him of his share.

Ali claims his five per cent share of the horses coupled with the quartets earning capacity is worth $1.5 million and if the horses were sold and he was deprived of prizemoney he stood to lose $200,000.

First Light provided information to VCAT outlining repeated and allegedly unsuccessful demands of Ali to pay outstanding training fees.


First Light referred the matter to Racing Victorias dispute resolution and mediation services in May.

VCAT ruled that Ali had to provide it with an undertaking as to damages in writing by noon on Thursday.

Under the order, First Light is restrained from selling Alis shares, selling the horses and distributing the prizemoney.

VCAT is to make a separate order setting out directions for the future conduct of the proceeding, including the filing of a counterclaim by the respondent (First Light).

RV said it is aware of the private matter between First Light Racing and Mr Ali that has been brought before VCAT. To our knowledge the matter remains under consideration by VCAT and we await its findings.



Posted By: Shawy38
Date Posted: 17 Jul 2020 at 11:08am

A racehorse owner leaving a trail of debt across the racing industry has been granted an injunction in a bid to stop First Light Racing from selling group 1 winner Aristia to stud, despite owing at least $13,000 in unpaid training fees.

Ahamed Mohamed Ali, also known as Ash Ali, was granted an injunction by the Victorian Civil and Administrative Tribunal on Tuesday to prevent First Light Racing from selling Aristia and three other horses he part-owns after he questioned whether the licensed syndicator unlawfully took ownership of Ali's shares which had gone unpaid.


Despite Mr Ali owing at least $13,000 in unpaid training fees for his 5 per cent share in the horses, VCAT deputy president Ian Lulham said "the Tribunal cannot approve of a person, First Light, taking someone's property unlawfully", granting an injunction before a hearing at a date expected to be set this week.

First Light Racing director Tim Wilson declined to comment prior to the hearing of the matter.


Mr Ali has left a trail of debts throughout the racing industry, according to one creditor who spoke to The Age in January, and was at the centre of a police investigation into trainer Jarrod McLean, who was accused of making threats to Mr Ali over what Mr McLean said was more than $10,000 in unpaid training fees.


Victoria Police told The Age on Wednesday they were still investigating an alleged incident that occurred in Rowville between May and December 2019, but that no charges had been laid.

At the injunction hearing, Wilson told VCAT that "Mr Ali paid no fees between December 2019 and May 2020, putting him in substantial arrears" in excess of $15,000. Mr Ali denied the assertion and said the debt was "around $13,000".

Wilson produced email evidence from Racing Victoria's senior advisor of dispute resolution Frank De Rango that he was in his right to default Mr Ali based on a clause in the product disclosure statement signed by Mr Ali at the time he purchased a share in Aristia, and that FLR had given Mr Ali ample notice to repay the debt.


https://www.smh.com.au/sport/racing/spring-carnival-promoters-to-sweat-on-russian-camelot-campaign-20200715-p55c74.html" rel="nofollow -


According to that clause, "(First Light) reserves the right to default a client whose account extends beyond 60 days and under such circumstances that client will forgo their share ownership to (First Light)".

Racing Victoria advised First Light via email that "We are willing to process a transfer of ownership in Aristia under these circumstances without the out-going signature of Mr Ali."

However, VCAT deputy president Lulham said that he could not accept email correspondence from Mr De Rango "as anything other than the opinion of its author".

"Neither party produced any rules' or constitutional documents applicable to Racing Victoria," the deputy president determined.

However, Racing Victoria told The Age the advice provided by Mr De Rango to First Light Racing was accurate.

"It appears in this instance that there has been misunderstanding with regards to the role of Racing Australia in the processing of all ownership transfer forms within Victoria," an RV spokesperson said.

"The advice provided to FLR was appropriate and warranted in the circumstances."

FLR is not the only racing business chasing unpaid fees from Mr Ali.

Cloverdale Agistment owner Kaz Morphett, widow of well known sports commentator Drew Morphett, says she too is owed well over $20,000 by Ali and has a mare on her Pakenham South property that Ali left more than two years ago.

"She has been fed twice a day, wormed every eight weeks - we haven't missed a beat with it," Ms Morphett said.

"He owes me over $20,000. We just want to get him. He's just a bad, bad egg."

But Mr Ali told The Age he has offered to settle the debts with First Light Racing and Ms Morphett, explaining he had been in Perth over December and January and the COVID-19 impact on flights meant he couldn't get to a Bank Of Melbourne branch to sort out issues with his account.


He said he had no other significant debts in the racing industry and was still buying horses, and argued that First Light Racing took ownership of his shares because they wanted a piece of valuable broodmare Aristia.

"I have offered to pay with interest the $13,000, they [FLR] don't want to take it because they want to benefit unlawfully," he said.

"Kaz Morphett, [the] final amount has to be agreed on but we have now agreed on the process after going up and down for six months. RV are fully aware and were with me on the way forward."

Mr Ali said he could not comment on any debt owed to Mr McLean as the matter was part of an ongoing police investigation.




Posted By: Batman
Date Posted: 17 Jul 2020 at 11:52am
Would think that Mr Ali would be a welcome customer to any horse racing establishment. NOT ConfusedConfused

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Gambling has brought our family closer together. We had to move to a smaller house.


Posted By: TJMitchell
Date Posted: 17 Jul 2020 at 12:14pm
Sounds like a gelati bloke. $15k...no, no it's actually more like 13k LOL

Prizemoney alone would easily cover that.


Posted By: Carioca
Date Posted: 17 Jul 2020 at 12:41pm
Hope when the dust settles he is barred from being an owner unless upfront fees are paid in advance, non payers!AngryAngryAngry


Posted By: Straight arrow
Date Posted: 17 Jul 2020 at 10:23pm
Haha horse racing? Truth and whats happened always gets blurred 


Posted By: Gay3
Date Posted: 20 Jul 2020 at 7:06pm
https://www.facebook.com/sammathewlyons?__tn__=C-R&eid=ARBs23f21A3K2c_Iwhhh80rZxAGy5UJaRmEJstTX4uk6qVfayagVcJXaKTOPk3ZBu9j8uzKvSdSXeNxm&hc_ref=ARRSq2KpIbWnOQGhrMfanV-WwrQXc9w_L4AUkhoelO1TQXBMCYCneg_nqVQKTWzu6R4&fref=nf&__xts__%5B0%5D=68.ARDpld9PontBHNmMarNfg-IIrwUVvbGUI3IfUXKmbrle1HaygIDMcm2DrDVV0tyncrQ1DFL-3lx1JqKPVFWD-e0ADMQ6YygExnJcKmjRHUruZWGC4RLig0Qzq1nk6Q6uHtYu9KyBmCXq8EOpgHiMEHJCV3EbPSJ4-yCm1suYe93uR4h6-fWje3noo71pfW2T80n6j-3t83By3lWbk1xblNHY-Vj56FojCMyH31K_drGXNmnBENCpKNtEcHoY8R_UqulmeX8ObrZBZASdiUqQeKEfksR9K07jhyAZz45ZHsiVporrhazBymSTL8PXWV_waIX2M4ZicWzU7Wom5AUK" rel="nofollow - Sam Lyons ? to  https://www.facebook.com/groups/336222683443418/?ref=nf_target&fref=nf&__xts__%5B0%5D=68.ARDpld9PontBHNmMarNfg-IIrwUVvbGUI3IfUXKmbrle1HaygIDMcm2DrDVV0tyncrQ1DFL-3lx1JqKPVFWD-e0ADMQ6YygExnJcKmjRHUruZWGC4RLig0Qzq1nk6Q6uHtYu9KyBmCXq8EOpgHiMEHJCV3EbPSJ4-yCm1suYe93uR4h6-fWje3noo71pfW2T80n6j-3t83By3lWbk1xblNHY-Vj56FojCMyH31K_drGXNmnBENCpKNtEcHoY8R_UqulmeX8ObrZBZASdiUqQeKEfksR9K07jhyAZz45ZHsiVporrhazBymSTL8PXWV_waIX2M4ZicWzU7Wom5AUK&__tn__=C-R" rel="nofollow - Australian Race Horse Owners Club

Am now hearing that he's asking about going into horses privately with people.

Please be careful is he's asking you. No-one wants to get caught with a private debt with no protection from the industry or the licensed guys.



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Wisdom has been chasing me but I've always outrun it!



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