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Topic: MenPosted By: Tlazolteotl
Subject: Men
Date Posted: 14 May 2018 at 10:34am
What's the first thing that pops into your mind when you hear about a mass shooting somewhere?
Replies: Posted By: djebel
Date Posted: 14 May 2018 at 10:54am
Interesting.
------------- reductio ad absurdum
Posted By: Isaac soloman
Date Posted: 14 May 2018 at 1:00pm
Many issues in this, if you are referring to the Osmington (Margaret River) shootings. was the grand father who shot them all.
a messy marriage break up
dad not able to see his kids, at all
seemingly controlling grandparents
the mum and kids were living with the her parents
mental health issues
why shoot all....and not just yourself?
Posted By: Isaac soloman
Date Posted: 14 May 2018 at 1:02pm
Margaret River is probably the equivalent of Byron Bay; all very idylic, alternative, hobby farms, wealthy retirees, wine area, touristy, surf (sharks)
Posted By: maccamax
Date Posted: 14 May 2018 at 2:44pm
Our preference to importing & breeding insanity.
Posted By: Isaac soloman
Date Posted: 14 May 2018 at 3:22pm
thought you may comment macca.
you are probably best qualified on tbv to comment on this issue
sad nonetheless. man, how must the dad be feeling...
the kids all had autism, and were home schooled.
Posted By: acacia alba
Date Posted: 14 May 2018 at 4:03pm
I heard that somewhere , PT. All 4 of them autistic ? Geez if after the second one arrived autistic, wouldnt you pull the plug on having any more ?? It seems to be a sad family even before this tragedy. One of their sons took his own life about 15 years ago, and another is seriously ill, apparently, along with 4 grand kids autistic. As soon as I hear kids are home schooled it seems to make me wonder why, but I dont know why I think that way. Almost a receipe for a disaster looming, if looked at close enough. I can never get my head around why its necessary to kill all the others. Let alone a grandfather shooting his grand kids .
------------- animals before people.
Posted By: stayer
Date Posted: 14 May 2018 at 8:05pm
I don't get the thread title. Please tell me you don't mean that the "first thing that pops into your head" when hearing of a murder is "men"?? That'd be a bit weird. Sorry if I misread it?
And AA, apart from the issue of over-diagnosis of Autism (Spectrum Disorder), why on earth would anyone "pull the plug" after 2 autistic kids??
The father's comments were quite bizarre. (So were the names of the kids.) Seems like a very odd family altogether. Wouldn't be surprised if there's more to the story.
Posted By: Isaac soloman
Date Posted: 14 May 2018 at 8:38pm
agree stayer, this topic shouldnt be gender specific. or perhaps T can expand.
would imagine home schooling 4 autistic kids must have been very hard.
almost feel a "deliverance" theme going on, although am quite sure the people of the area would totally disagree.
much more to happen with this.
Posted By: Tlazolteotl
Date Posted: 14 May 2018 at 8:38pm
stayer wrote:
I don't get the thread title. Please tell me you don't mean that the "first thing that pops into your head" when hearing of a murder is "men"?? That'd be a bit weird. Sorry if I misread it?
And AA, apart from the issue of over-diagnosis of Autism (Spectrum Disorder), why on earth would anyone "pull the plug" after 2 autistic kids??
The father's comments were quite bizarre. (So were the names of the kids.) Seems like a very odd family altogether. Wouldn't be surprised if there's more to the story.
If there are ever exceptions to the rule I'll stop thinking it.
Posted By: stayer
Date Posted: 14 May 2018 at 8:51pm
So you meant that? Okey dokey.
Posted By: Isaac soloman
Date Posted: 14 May 2018 at 9:03pm
what of the Indonesian family, mum and dad, who strapped bombs to their young children and blew themselves up in churches.
has happened twice now.
Posted By: RED HUNTER
Date Posted: 14 May 2018 at 9:05pm
Agree about THE MEN MEN TALITY
but
What kind of women would blow their kids up too......recently one on Sunday,one today...Ans...radical Islam
Posted By: stayer
Date Posted: 14 May 2018 at 9:17pm
To be fair, I guess if Tlaz called the topic "men and guns" it would be a good topic worth discussing. It was just the comment about the "first thing that pops into your head" after a mass shooting being "men" that was a bit off. Who the hell thinks that way? Most first thoughts, I would have thought, are "bloody hell what kind of sicko does that?" Or "who is suffering because of this?" Maybe that's just me.
It definitely ain't "Men." I hope.
Posted By: djebel
Date Posted: 14 May 2018 at 9:44pm
Tlazolteotl wrote:
stayer wrote:
I don't get the thread title. Please tell me you don't mean that the "first thing that pops into your head" when hearing of a murder is "men"?? That'd be a bit weird. Sorry if I misread it?
And AA, apart from the issue of over-diagnosis of Autism (Spectrum Disorder), why on earth would anyone "pull the plug" after 2 autistic kids??
The father's comments were quite bizarre. (So were the names of the kids.) Seems like a very odd family altogether. Wouldn't be surprised if there's more to the story.
If there are ever exceptions to the rule I'll stop thinking it.
You're thinking who did it ?
------------- reductio ad absurdum
Posted By: Gay3
Date Posted: 14 May 2018 at 10:26pm
This may help explain his weird choice of title
The problem with the 'good bloke' narrative
By Clementine Ford
The local community at Margaret River is understandably in shock after one of its residents, Peter Miles, allegedly https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2018/may/13/margaret-river-tragedy-father-says-he-still-loves-man-believed-responsible-for-deaths" rel="nofollow - murdered his wife, daughter and four grandchildren in the early hours of Friday morning .
While
Cynda Miles was a well known figure in the town, and her daughter and
grandchildren were well liked, reports published after the massacre seem
to indicate that less was known about Miles. Despite this, the
narrative of the "Good Bloke Under Pressure" has risen up in the wake of
the homicide. As is typical in cases like this, “mental health” is
being blamed.
In a press conference given by the children’s
grieving father, Aaron Cockman said his former father-in-law was an
“awesome man, before all this blew up”. By “this”, Cockman was
presumably referring to his belief that family loss and illness had led
Miles to desire an end to his life, but to also view it as necessary to
“take out everyone because that will fix the whole problem”.
We
can only hope it was the grief talking when he said of Miles, “If it
wasn’t for him, I wouldn’t have Katrina, I wouldn’t have her kids. So
it’s not some random guy off the street who’s taken them away from me –
he gave them to me and now he’s taken them away. If it had to happen,
there is no better person than that.”
Listen. Peter Miles and
those like him are not Good Blokes, and they have to stop being
described as such. This doesn’t mean they were incapable of doing good
deeds.
Turning murderers into "Good Blokes" only reinforces an
underlying community belief that there are circumstances in which men
(and it’s always men, because nobody defends women who murder children
or describes them as “awesome”) can be driven to this kind of response.
That indeed the pressures of being a man can be so intense and
suffocating that they feel they have no choice but to end the lives of
everyone they’re "responsible" for.
Massacres become
tragedies, victims’ names disappear into the swirl of commentary and all
that’s remembered is that something awful happened but he was a Good
Bloke at the end of the day and that, my friends, is perhaps the saddest part of all of this.
While
Cynda Miles was a well known figure in the town, and her daughter and
grandchildren were well liked, reports published after the massacre seem
to indicate that less was known about Miles. Despite this, the
narrative of the "Good Bloke Under Pressure" has risen up in the wake of
the homicide. As is typical in cases like this, “mental health” is
being blamed.
In a press conference given by the children’s
grieving father, Aaron Cockman said his former father-in-law was an
“awesome man, before all this blew up”. By “this”, Cockman was
presumably referring to his belief that family loss and illness had led
Miles to desire an end to his life, but to also view it as necessary to
“take out everyone because that will fix the whole problem”.
We
can only hope it was the grief talking when he said of Miles, “If it
wasn’t for him, I wouldn’t have Katrina, I wouldn’t have her kids. So
it’s not some random guy off the street who’s taken them away from me –
he gave them to me and now he’s taken them away. If it had to happen,
there is no better person than that.”
Listen. Peter Miles and
those like him are not Good Blokes, and they have to stop being
described as such. This doesn’t mean they were incapable of doing good
deeds.
Turning murderers into "Good Blokes" only reinforces an
underlying community belief that there are circumstances in which men
(and it’s always men, because nobody defends women who murder children
or describes them as “awesome”) can be driven to this kind of response.
That indeed the pressures of being a man can be so intense and
suffocating that they feel they have no choice but to end the lives of
everyone they’re "responsible" for.
Massacres become
tragedies, victims’ names disappear into the swirl of commentary and all
that’s remembered is that something awful happened but he was a Good
Bloke at the end of the day and that, my friends, is perhaps the saddest part of all of this.
This
was an horrific act of violence. The framing of criminal acts like these
as being somehow the result of depression or financial struggles or
just a lack of appropriate emotional support cannot help but infect the
circumstances with an air of sympathy and understanding. It’s dangerous
to immediately valorise the people responsible for this kind of
behaviour. It is an act of valorisation to focus on the so-called
"awesome" traits of someone who has just slaughtered their entire
family. More importantly, it’s a valorisation of traditional notions of
masculinity to regard a homicide like this as a father and grandfather’s
misguided way of protecting his family from the stress of his own
suicidal ideation.
In the case of this homicide in particular, the
repeated references to the children’s autism invites an additional
layer of ableism into the picture. Some people already find it far too
easy to empathise with the idea of a depressed man (who almost always
conveniently happens to be white, middle class and heterosexual) who
sees familial murder as his only way out of crushing anxiety. But when http://thestringer.com.au/damien-little-and-geoff-hunt-were-not-good-blokes-but-who-are-the-perpetrators-we-are-not-talking-about-11490#.Wvjxc9OFPOQ" rel="nofollow - one or more of those family members have a disability , the narrative shifts even further into the obscene as people begin to say things like, “Well, it was probably for the best.”
When https://www.smh.com.au/national/strains-that-grew-inside-geoff-hunt-ended-in-five-deaths-on-a-farm-20140911-10fos3.html" rel="nofollow - Geoff Hunt murdered his wife and three children in Lockhart in 2014 ,
much was made of the fact that Kim Hunt had recently acquired a
disability in a car accident. In this case, the “quiet grain farmer” was
described as having suffered “considerable pressure and tension”
following the crash, and that police believe this might have been what
caused him “to snap”.
Much of the public’s commentary
following the murders was sympathetic to Hunt. Again, feminists were
urged to consider the plight of mental health and not to use this as a
way to demonise men. If refusing to discuss domestic homicide as
anything other than an incomprehensible act of violence with no excuse
is "demonising men", then we have a long way to go.
If there is
any demonising to be done, it is of the structural system called
patriarchy that informs men – even "good" ones – that they shoulder the
responsibility for familial care and order. In the case of Geoff Hunt,
the coroner’s report later found "it was the result of an egocentric
delusion that his wife and children would be better off dying than
living without him”.
Perhaps most damning of all though, is the
message being sent by this narrative to the men who are active
perpetrators of family violence.
These men don’t consider
themselves bad and their friends would probably agree with them. The
Good Bloke narrative reinforces to these men that they aren’t truly in
control of their actions, that they’re pushed into it by external
factors.
I don’t know if Peter Miles was a nice man. I don’t know
what he was like behind the closed doors of his family’s property. I
don’t know what kind of grandfather he was, or how he treated Cynda and
Katrina. I don’t know what kind of personal struggles or crises he was
wrestling with or whether he was mentally unwell or depressed.
What
I know is that he wasn’t a Good Bloke, and all attempts to frame him
that way should be strongly resisted. Perhaps it’s just the dogmatic
feminist in me speaking, but I feel like slaughtering your whole family
has to be where we draw the line at being honoured with that title.
------------- Wisdom has been chasing me but I've always outrun it!
Posted By: acacia alba
Date Posted: 14 May 2018 at 10:32pm
stayer wrote:
I don't get the thread title. Please tell me you don't mean that the "first thing that pops into your head" when hearing of a murder is "men"?? That'd be a bit weird. Sorry if I misread it?
And AA, apart from the issue of over-diagnosis of Autism (Spectrum Disorder), why on earth would anyone "pull the plug" after 2 autistic kids??
The father's comments were quite bizarre. (So were the names of the kids.) Seems like a very odd family altogether. Wouldn't be surprised if there's more to the story.
By pull the plug, I meant you would stop having kids. ( Not go out and kill them . ) I dont have kids but I have friends with autistic kids,,,,more than one lot of friends, and while they are loveable kids they are hard and constant work, so imagine what having 4 would be like. Why would you just keep on having more, after the first 2 are autistic ? And in every case with the people I have known thru life, just the one child has led to marriage break downs, so imagine what the stress and work of 4 would do to any relationship. And yes, Dad,s remarks were quite bizarre . He said the grand father had been working up to this for years !! OMG ! No wonder he was fighting for custody. As to those names How on earth do people dream some of these names up ? Do they make them up out of a series of letters or where do they get them from ?? How many of these family murder suicides do you hear of that are commited by women ? I cant recall one just at the moment, but I can think of quite a few all done by men.
------------- animals before people.
Posted By: djebel
Date Posted: 14 May 2018 at 10:33pm
When I have the time I will read that article but having read the first few paragraphs I'd like to say, He just might have been a good bloke.
When a person commits such an atrocity should his/her whole life and being be defined by such an act ?
It will be in the wider community and the dustbin of history but it clearly does not tell the whole story.
------------- reductio ad absurdum
Posted By: djebel
Date Posted: 14 May 2018 at 10:34pm
For 99.9999%+ of this persons life he was not a murderer.
------------- reductio ad absurdum
Posted By: acacia alba
Date Posted: 14 May 2018 at 10:40pm
For most murderers , 99.9999% of their lives they are not murderers. Does that mean most murderers are good blokes ??
------------- animals before people.
Posted By: stayer
Date Posted: 14 May 2018 at 11:22pm
Good to get that clarified, AA. And that article from Gay has some truth to it I guess, for some men raised in a toxic male culture, not that I personally understand that way of thinking. And djebel, what in the great wide F are you on about? I guess you (and the father's bizarre comments) give proof to Gay's article.
Posted By: stayer
Date Posted: 14 May 2018 at 11:24pm
Any way, in this case it seems likely that the whole family situation was a bit culty and kookoo.
Posted By: djebel
Date Posted: 14 May 2018 at 11:34pm
If you can not see what I am on about you are clearly not a thinker.
------------- reductio ad absurdum
Posted By: djebel
Date Posted: 14 May 2018 at 11:34pm
acacia alba wrote:
For most murderers , 99.9999% of their lives they are not murderers. Does that mean most murderers are good blokes ??
No.
------------- reductio ad absurdum
Posted By: djebel
Date Posted: 14 May 2018 at 11:41pm
So she admits she does not know him one little bit yet she can categorically say he was not a good bloke.
None of us as yet know why he did this unthinkable crime, none of us know what demons he was carrying.
Her article is fine wilst she is saying the patriarchal model is all wrong, I am happy to go along with that, but she can not be certain that is what drove him to this atrocity.
------------- reductio ad absurdum
Posted By: Dr E
Date Posted: 15 May 2018 at 1:21am
Fantastic news about Clementine Ford - Lifeline has "pulled the plug" on her!
I hope she's on fire one day, and a group of incontinent men ignore her!
'It’s hard enough for men to call a helpline without facing this':
Campaign to remove Clementine Ford as the speaker of a Lifeline event for tweeting 'all men must die'
------------- In reference to every post in the Trump thread ... "There may have been a tiny bit of license taken there" ... Ok, Thanks for the "heads up" PT!
Posted By: acacia alba
Date Posted: 15 May 2018 at 2:12am
djebel wrote:
So she admits she does not know him one little bit yet she can categorically say he was not a good bloke.
None of us as yet know why he did this unthinkable crime, none of us know what demons he was carrying.
Her article is fine wilst she is saying the patriarchal model is all wrong, I am happy to go along with that, but she can not be certain that is what drove him to this atrocity.
Who can ever know what drove him to do this ? He was just a complete whack job. And those who want to say he wasnt, or make excuses for him, or find reasons for what he did, are strange and strange people.
------------- animals before people.
Posted By: Passing Through
Date Posted: 15 May 2018 at 9:38am
Posted By: JudgeHolden
Date Posted: 15 May 2018 at 9:45am
People love to point out demographic over-representations in crime statistics amongst say, racial or religious groups. But this is the mother (or make that father) of all over-representations. And as far as I can tell, it’s been across cultures and throughout history.
Posted By: Isaac soloman
Date Posted: 15 May 2018 at 12:32pm
abc interview with a neighbor, who asked the grandmother how she was, who said they were having trouble with the grandfather, the week before the tragedy. obviously the grandmother was going too save her man....
my psyc hat would say he was dominated by strong, overbearing women, probably beginning with his own mother, then he married like, a woman who is going to save the world, and protect her man from the bad stuff.
in the end the man is emasculated, and something gives....
is probably why the police say may never know why he did it. they are not psyc's and dont want to give a reason, because not their field.
will predict its the women in his life. but who is ever going to admit that!
especially in this day and age....
Posted By: acacia alba
Date Posted: 15 May 2018 at 12:50pm
Yeah , right ! My wife made me do it ! She nagged me to death . What a cop out ! If thats the case every second man would be running amok , killing his family !
------------- animals before people.
Posted By: maccamax
Date Posted: 15 May 2018 at 12:54pm
The Stats are correct . Men at the top of the list in EVERYTHING.
No1 of course = Who has the most Brains .
Posted By: Dr E
Date Posted: 15 May 2018 at 3:57pm
If women don't lift their game soon, we will just have to forget merit and introduce a quota system - come on girls, you can do better than that!
------------- In reference to every post in the Trump thread ... "There may have been a tiny bit of license taken there" ... Ok, Thanks for the "heads up" PT!
Posted By: acacia alba
Date Posted: 15 May 2018 at 7:01pm
Women always want equal opportunity , but the men are winning this one hands down
------------- animals before people.
Posted By: acacia alba
Date Posted: 17 May 2018 at 1:40am
Lots more very sad stuff coming out about this . Just cant begin to wonder where the grandfather,s mind was. What flipped him over ?? Or where the Dad,s mind was when he talked to media,,,,very odd what he said. Cant imagine how the grandfather managed to carry out the killings. The whole thing is so very strange and sad. Those kids,,,,did they see their Grandad coming for them,,,,so so sad and aweful to contemplate. Adults killing adults is going on every day. But killing 4 kids ?? Its beyond belief.
------------- animals before people.
Posted By: Dr E
Date Posted: 17 May 2018 at 1:43am
Back on topic folks!
So, just how good are men!!!
------------- In reference to every post in the Trump thread ... "There may have been a tiny bit of license taken there" ... Ok, Thanks for the "heads up" PT!
Posted By: acacia alba
Date Posted: 17 May 2018 at 2:12am
Not really great , to be honest.
------------- animals before people.
Posted By: Dr E
Date Posted: 18 May 2018 at 1:31am
I hope you don't mean to be sexist aa ... this could be very hurtful to a lot of male victims ...
------------- In reference to every post in the Trump thread ... "There may have been a tiny bit of license taken there" ... Ok, Thanks for the "heads up" PT!
Posted By: acacia alba
Date Posted: 18 May 2018 at 3:10pm
Male victims of what, Dr E ? A girl has to kiss a lot of frogs before she finds her prince, you know !
Just as Meghan.
------------- animals before people.
Posted By: Dr E
Date Posted: 18 May 2018 at 3:43pm
... that's gross ... she even kissed a ranga!
------------- In reference to every post in the Trump thread ... "There may have been a tiny bit of license taken there" ... Ok, Thanks for the "heads up" PT!