What a win. That stride! Reminds me of his old man.

Really have to question whether it would be too big an ask for a 7yo mare to beat both Enable and now Cracksman under such circumstances. 

I think She can and if she did, it would put her above Frankel for mine.

I have her right along side Frankel over 2000m, certainly think she would be beating him off a strong tempo and with some give in the ground. Slow tempo on firmer ground and he would be too hard to run down.

Reckon she'd have at least 3L on Cirrus Des Aigles in the wet and could certainly see her gap the likes of SNA and Farhh(?) by a similar margin as Frankel.

1600m and she would get held comfortably. All a matter of opinion.

You from the UK or timeform by any chance?

That is not quite correct.

The official International ratings people moved their ratings around to fit in with some sort of narrative.

Timeform have never changed theirs.

 

Just take breath mate, no need for the personal digs.

Timeform have underrated Winx by about 5lbs compared to International ratings, nothing to do with Frankel. 

Also I rate Frankel the best I've seen for his exploits over the mile, his not nearly as bomb-proof over 2000m, hence why I think Winx at her peak distance would hold all the tactical aces over that trip and be very close depending on race circumstance.

I've stated on a number of occasions he's the best I've seen in general terms, just so happens that Winx at WFA would be almost as good as any horse I've seen over 2000m.

I have no doubt he is right up there with them but the runner up is pretty average, or at least he was, he has clearly improved 20 lengths on his previous best.

You may well be right but his effort on Sunday night was not enough to take him to the top of the rankings at this point in time.

Irrespective, blind freddie knows HR is better over further than 2000m. He is better suited on firmer tracks (never won on anything else) and goes much better later in his prep. Ascot was first up, 2000m, on a slow track.

And people whinge about the quality of Winx's beaten brigade.  

Enough nonsense....the best thoroughbreds on the planet are in Europe so its actually a simple comparison to make.

It'll be debated for the next hundred years but bottom line is at the peak of her powers with no more to prove in Oz, history will dictate she dodged the 2 UK champs........or should they both come here 

They strongly considered running and he was antepost favorite.

I'll take it as read that you mean middle distance+ horses Rusty, but presumably you have evidence for this? 

Last year a dirt track USA tbred was judged the best in the world, and so far this year an ageing mare from down under is leading the pack, despite the obvious bias of some raters. I guess a world record number of G1 wins, and consecutive wins against all comers (smashing a couple who finished close up behind arguably Europe's best at the time, Solow) have finally convinced most doubters. 

One UK racing identity visiting Randwick for the Championships declared she would have beaten any of theirs when arrogantly flogging them in the QEII, while Irish trainer Ken Condon rates her as one of the world's greatest ever. 

Just shows that some who venture into the rose garden will only ever notice the manure even as others marvel at the wonderful flowers and scents.

Count me out of comparisons with the greatest horse in the world and one of the best Australia has ever seen.

So you keep saying while ignoring the obvious. The old theory that if you repeat it often enough it must be true is alive and kicking. I see you're still claiming that Black Caviar was at her best at Ascot. It's hard to take you seriously after that but nevertheless we all make silly statements we'd like to retract so moving on.....

You've chosen not to answer my question regarding margins (difficult for sure but relevant), or respond to the FACTS regarding Highland Reel's performance against Cracksman (for obvious reasons) so I'll focus on something you must be able to answer.

What forumula and criteria did you use to arrive at your 1.7l ?  Being very generous we'll ignore the previously mentioned errors in attempting to compare results over different distance, on different tracks, on different track conditions, at different times, at different stages of preps, in races run at different tempos (for example, being a 2400m specialist Highland Reel would have enjoyed the fast tempo of Winx's Cox Plate).

My next comment will be obvious to most who've read your latest piece of junk, er analysis. If, as you state,  nobody can claim Winx is superior because she hasn't beaten him - something many will disagree with while acknowledging that absolute proof would only be possible through multiple meetings at various tracks - it must have dawned on you that the reverse must also be true? 

I'm sure he's simply kicking the can down the road. Good to get some action going in the forum but little else. 

It's a positive for racing that people will constantly argue about racing's great horses  kept apart by time or distance but in the end there is no valid comparison so we shouldn't denigrate one for another. 

Cracksman with just two G1s isn't there yet but he has the potential. The fact that he was already near the top of the world ratings after just one win at the top level shows just how foggy those ratings are imo.  

It is easier than travelling from Sydney to Melbourne. 

Cracksman is no longer potential, He is the finished article, It is just a matter of producing the goods.

I was talking about potential champ djebel - when he gets the runs on the board. Two G1s is no basis for that label. A handful more is an entirely different matter. I wonder what rating they'd have given VAIN?

He is already a champion. That was officially sanctioned last year.

Because ALL group 1 horses have speed, If an Aussie trainer has a unproven group 1 horse in their stable that horse will almost certainly be the fastest horse in the stable over any trip.

So what do they think they have on their hands ?

Winx is a great horse.

Unlike many here i do not trust times as an overall perception of how good a race or horse is.

Like Atreus I believe in looking at margins...but in context, allowing for many different factors. 

But to play with the margins way of looking at form and relative abilities, let's look at Cracksmans latest win where he beat Cloth of Stars by 4.75L. Cloth of Stars. Cloth of Stars has raced Talismanic 3 times- beating him 0.4 L, 1.25L and being beaten by 1.75L. For all intents and purposes Cloth of Stars and Talismanic are fairly equal in ability.

Highland Reel has met Talismanic 3 times. HR has beat T by 1.6L and 17.3L and was beaten once by T by 0.75L. If we disregard the extent of the large margin and reduce the defeat to the previous 1.6L we can conservatively say that HR is a length better than T.

Extrapolating HR is 1L better than Cloth of Stars. Which then places Cracksman as 3.75L better than HR.

HR was beaten 5.5L by Winx. Therefore Winx is 1.75L better than Cracksman. No shame in that as Cracksman is young enough to improve further but let's wait and see how good he'll become and the thing I like is that he wasn't rushed off to stud after his 3yo career which is refreshing to see.

How is he much better at 2400m ?

He is perfectly suitable over both trips.

His two best wins by far have been at 2000m and 2100m.

Both Cracksman and Winx are superstars at 2000m.

Patsy,

I was posting tongue in cheek because Atreus original post used raw margins and gave no semblance to any other variables. You can make times tell you anything you want and you can also make margins work out in your favour.

And as for Cracksman being 1st up-granted. But in almost every one of her wins Winx cruised and could have gone faster including the Cox Plate where she beat HR.

Juddmonte have thrown out the challenge and hope to meet him in the King George and Queen Elizabeth Stakes in July. 

Cracksman is not defended a massive winning record and should I doubt connections are afraid of a challenge.

They may not want to bottom him out though early in the season. 

Sure, would be great to see her vs Cracksman or Enable. Cox Plate, Emirates or HK end of year but doubt they would travel that far despite the prizemoney just as Winx won't go the Arc for the prizemoney. No point going to UK for prizemoney-let's be honest, so either Paris or HK is only possible meeting point and unless one of the two Europeans lose their gloss they are unlikely to come to HK and Winx will not go to Paris. So before anyone says one is dodging the other let's say that the Euros are not going out of their way to challenge Winx.

His next two targets are 2000m races, He may not see 2400m until the Arc. 

Probably true Morston (the posts bit) but for the most part the comments have usually been the other way in regard to our champs, mostly from locals I suspect. I acknowledge the difficulty of travel, just enjoy turning the argument around when it suits (the "truth" is somewhere in between no doubt). One of those Solow placers which Winx left in her wake improved enough to win the Mckinnon at his next start iirc. 

Europeans - sorry can't say that now, try Brits - arguing that Winx need to go OS to prove her worth (there are very few) have an exaggerated superiority complex. Aussies who do the same (there are more, but again not many) are cultural cringers. Sweeping statement but hey it's par for the course isn't it? 

Agree. Comparing hemispheres is easier now horses travel more but it's not definitive. We can acknowledge certain things but beyond that it's hypothetical at best. Even worse trying to compare champs from other eras.

With few exceptions we have vanilla courses, a focus on short course racing, and too many G1s which allow horses to avoid each other. UK's courses are far more interesting and daresay challenging.

A very nice turn of phrase that Macca . 

Being World Champ would also entitle her to the PC (Planetary Champ) belt, the SSC belt, and probably the GC belt.

Nice win even that, if there was less than a length between a half dozen of them. You do recall we had to give him access to "the ladies tee" to make him competitive tho Patsy?  

Hopefully the feds will negotiate a better deal post Brexit for the reverse to also apply in future. Will Merchant Navy get an allowance at Ascot now he's trained by Aidan?

Those were the days my friend.....

Euro horses seem to be constantly over rated against the rest of the world IMO. 99% that come to Aus with decent records in Group races can't even win our mid weeks.

Would back Winx any day in Aus against Enable or Cracksman. She has great stamina and a world class sprint. They wouldn't see which way she went.