Inbreeding to dominant racemares
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Topic: Inbreeding to dominant racemares
Posted By: Majestic
Subject: Inbreeding to dominant racemares
Date Posted: 06 Aug 2017 at 1:41pm
I have the opportunity, in the new season, to breed my mare to a specific sire and duplicate Denise's Joy 4Sx4M, breeding being War x Cannon's Crown. What are the views of forumites re this specifically and othe breeding patterns involving inbreeding to dominant racemares.
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Replies:
Posted By: Sir Gov
Date Posted: 06 Aug 2017 at 2:40pm
Majestic wrote:
I have the opportunity, in the new season, to breed my mare to a specific sire and duplicate Denise's Joy 4Sx4M, breeding being War x Cannon's Crown. What are the views of forumites re this specifically and othe breeding patterns involving inbreeding to dominant racemares. |
On type - I have been very impressed with the War progeny. I know you are after a view on the cross - however he is producing some great types.
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Posted By: furious
Date Posted: 06 Aug 2017 at 3:39pm
Looks brilliant on paper and you know the More than Ready cross worked for the line also. It is actually 4m x 4m both times through the daughters of Denise's Joy but you do have a 5f x 4m to Nureyev and you mare has a 4f x 4m to Special.
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Posted By: Majestic
Date Posted: 06 Aug 2017 at 10:22pm
Thanks Sir Gov, the progeny has to be attractive. I know some ugly animals have been successful, but still, I stand corrected, most good horses are attractive, well built, muscular individuals. I still have posed the question re inbreeding to good racemares, eg Emancipation, Surround, etc. how about Golden Chariot, Urban City, Ouigi Board, Special, etc. can anyone bring up any inbreeding instances. I realise inbreeding to Stallions is a given with the limited bloodline pools, but surely there are some examples of the "taproot" mare being more influential in a pedigree. Furious, your knowledge and feedback would be appreciated. We in Oz have lost so many influential female lines due to chasing a male stallion line, as has NZ, in the chase for stallion commercial lines, most of which have fallen by the wayside over the last 30 years, like the Belle family, the Jewel family, the Racamba family, the family old man Hayes ( the father of Van Dyke) developed, the Leica family developed by Bob Gard ( a family friend BTW), I am sure the stallion stations have hoodwinked us with their blurb re young Stallions, to the detriment of their older, successful, commercial Stallions. Over to you all to continue discussion.
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Posted By: furious
Date Posted: 07 Aug 2017 at 12:04am
Well look at High Chaparral
(Sadler's Wells). He had 64 foals out of Zabeel mares (out of Nureyev
mare) for 37 starters 26 winners 5 Black Type winners. This is the
Special cross f x m. The best is Dundeel who gives you Special 4f x 5m.
Remember him? Alpine Eagle was another. The Sadler's Wells/Encosta de lago (Fairy
Bridge cross) is in Whispered Secret. Or
you have the High Chaparral gelding Fabrizio out of a Desert King mare so you
find Special 4f x 5m and Thong 5f x 6f, 6f.
Don't think there has been any inbreeding to
Emancipation as most of the line either geldings or fillies. Stratum Star
may be given a chance to see if it works. This is another thing which works. Emancipation's line going back to a stallion who has the strong blood (that of Bletchingly) which produced the Champion. I'm watching one by Redoute's in South Africa out of Raid. Loved him as a yearling but so far only a winner. Surround is another without
that top sire son. Unless a colt like Stratum Star comes up the chances of inbreeding will be next to impossible. Too often their sons and grandsons
have been gelded or fillies went unnamed or foaled only colts who were gelded.
The Jewel family had Baguette and he had his
grandson Rory's Jester. And with the success of Not a Single Doubt. One carrying this cross is Grande Rosso with
his second dam being by Rory's Jester and his 5th dam Briolette a daughter of
Dark Jewel.
The Best in Show family (Redoute's Choice) have had
Trapeze Artist this season 6f x 6f.
Another 6f x 6f cross to Best in Show is in Final Salute.
Too Good to Refuse has an inbreeding to Jesmond
Lass 4f x 4m through Canny Lass and Canny Lad.
Another with this Canny Lad x Canny Lass cross is Eckstein.
The Belle family you talk about is the old Manto
line from which Written Tycoon comes from.
This season we saw Peacock from this line as a stakes winner. Peacock is inbred to Eight Carat 3m x 4f
Another great mare you didn't mention was Dual
Choice. She is the 5th dam of last
seasons G1 winner Scales of Justice who is inbred to Dancing Show 4f x 3m.
Truly Vain was inbred to Rarcamba 3f x 3f - so very
close indeed. He was a very good sire in New Zealand.
Brazen Beau's dam is inbred 4f x 4f to Windy Answer
a great race and broodmare.
Fighting Sun is inbred to Rough Shod a minor winner
but a great broodmare and grandam of Nureyev and Fairy Bridge (dam of Sadler's
Wells, Fairy King etc)
Young stallion Furnaces dam is inbred 3c x 3f to
Summoned through Zeditave and his 1/2 sister Pampas Fire. Some of the
mares you have above are only just getting to the inbreeding stage. But
if they don't have a good sire son it is always going to be hard to inbred to
them. This is also the family of Pariah,
Melito and yet another $2million plus yearling.
But the best haven't yet been inbred to Summoned.
Another new sire Shalaa is inbred to Doubly Sure
through her two top sons Kris and Diesis. He won the Middle Park Stakes a
two year old race which has give us many top stallions.
Years ago there was a champion Australian bred sire (seven
years in a row) who was inbred 4f x 3f to Illuminata through her daughters Gas
and Chelandry. That old Chelandry line
is still going strong in Australia. One
this season Montoya's Secret has both her sire High Chaparral and dam Divine
Secret decending from Chelandry. You
find this same cross in Invincible Star though her sire I am Invincible and dam
Romany Flyer. The stakes winner
yesterday Invincible Gem has that Chelandry cross through her sire I am
Invincible and the sire of her dam Marwina.
Years ago the Sunbride family produced Dayana the season saw
Divine Prophet from this family. Maybe
some inbreeding can occur to that family with this young sire.
Another inbred to a good mare is Derryn with Easy Date 4m x
4f through Snippets and True Blonde.
Also interesting is Beirut by Lonhro who has his second dam
by Dalmacia. This gives a 6f x 6f
inbreeding to Sweet Time. Sweet Time was
the dam of Gay Poss (AJC Oaks, Caulfield S).
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Posted By: djebel
Date Posted: 07 Aug 2017 at 2:32am
Inbreeding - linebreeding to Urban Sea and her family will feature for the next few years.
------------- reductio ad absurdum
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Posted By: Nostradamus II
Date Posted: 07 Aug 2017 at 10:59am
The following winners and stakes winners are from my NZ & Australia database. Inbreeding 4x4 or closer including 3/4 siblings. A number have a full sibling denoted (full).
Salford Art: Violetta 4x4Happy Trails: Special 3x4 Manhattan Flame: Shantha's Choice 2x3 Manhattan Street: Shantha's Choice 2x3 (full) Platinum Dragon: Shantha's Choice 2x3 (full) Budwiser: Rose Bower 4x3 (full) Eastwood: Rose Bower 4x3 (full) Ekraarstatic: Sacahuista 2x3 Astroturf: Rolls 3x3 Speak Fondly: Rolls 4x3 Moonovermanhattan: Rolls 4x3 Catch A Fire: Rolls 4x4 (full) Seaburge: Rolls 4x4 (full) Castup: Princess Tracy 2x3 (full) How True: Princess Tracy 2x3 (full) Hydrogen: Priceless Gem 4x3 Snow Charm: Park Appeal 3x3 The Alcippe: Park Appeal 3x3 Red Ripper: Tree Of Knowledge 3x4 Designacat: Valoris 4x4 Wairaka: River Lady 4x4 Sir Elmo: Height Of Fashion 4x4 Beauty Perception: Special 4x4 Ascomanni: Betty's Secret 4x3 Royal Dominance: Special 4x4 via 3/4 sibs Fairy King & Nureyev Bronte Lass: Special 3x4 via 3/4 sibs Nureyev & Sadler's Wells 2x2 Lucky Charm: Never Too Late 4x4 Margot: Native Partner 4x4 Elusive Empire: My Charmer 4x4 Te Awamututiki Girl: My Charmer 4x4 Smash Hit: Con Game 4x4 Felicity Hall: Lovenvain 3x3 Legal Aid: Klairessa 3x4 Carbide: Klairessa 4x3 Get Out Of It: Klairessa 4x4 Rejoice: Joy And Fun 4x4 Lavish Prince: Hunza 3x3 Lookherepal: Hardiemma 4x4 Isola Bella: Welsh Garden 3x3 Crux: Goodbye Heart 3x3 Patience: Gem In The Rough 2x3 Harbour Beau: Fanfreluche 4x4 Princess Katie: Fall Aspen 2x4 Highly Excessive: Fairy Bridge 3x4 via 3/4 sibs Sadler's Wells & Perugino Velocci: Fairy Bridge 4x4 Flirtation: Eight Carat 2x4 Dazzling Lady: Eight Carat 3x4 Demandz: Eight Carat 3x4 Peacock: Eight Carat 3x4 Allure: Eight Carat 3x4 Miracles Of Life: Easy Date 3x4 Derryn: Easy Date 4x4 Mahbeer: Dancing Show 4x3 Scales Of Justice: Dancing Show 4x3 Thwayya: Dancing Show 4x3 The Likely One: Crimson Saint 4x3 Star Exhibit: Crimson Saint 4x4 Our Daisy: Cotehele House 2x3 Heaven Sent: Cosmah 4x4 Irish Chat: Chatty Lady 4x4 Ididit: Alama 4x3 Impulsive Habit: Fairy Bridge 4x4 Katie's So Kool: Balidaress 4x4 (full) Portovenere: Balidaress 4x4 (full) Los Vargas: Alynda x Jewel Box 3x3 (full sisters) Hidden Treasure: All My Eye 4x4
------------- https://sites.google.com/site/cosmosthoroughbredpedigrees/" rel="nofollow - https://sites.google.com/site/cosmosthoroughbredpedigrees/
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Posted By: furious
Date Posted: 07 Aug 2017 at 11:33am
I forgot the Tavistock/Zabeel crosses also.
Tarzino and Werther also carry that Special cross. Sadler's Well's line sire over Zabeel mare. One generation back for sire being 5f x 5m. Or another Tavistock G1 winner inc Tavago who's dam is by a son of Nureyev so you find Special 5f x 4m.
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Posted By: Gay3
Date Posted: 07 Aug 2017 at 12:10pm
Astroturf: Rolls 3x3 Speak Fondly: Rolls 4x3 Moonovermanhattan: Rolls 4x3
As an aside, there's a now 5yo, broken only as a 3yo & left, by Man Of Illusion ex Ed's Sister/Flying Spur/Edwina/Vain therefore 4 x 3 Rolls bought for $450 at Colac sales y'day by a Maffra dealer, in case anyone's interested. Probably available for $1k.
------------- Wisdom has been chasing me but I've always outrun it!
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Posted By: furious
Date Posted: 07 Aug 2017 at 12:23pm
Yes Delago Deluxe, Speak Fondly and Atmospherical all have that Rolls cross. Encosta and Flying Spur give you that cross and Flying Spur was a son of Rolls and Encosta a Grandson of Rolls. One of the reasons Moonovermanhattan was interesting Gay3 but he was no worldbeater.
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Posted By: Breeder
Date Posted: 07 Aug 2017 at 1:20pm
There will be some interesting horses to watch in NZ in a couple of years. The Dennis Bros. ( breeders of the very successful family which they famously name all the progeny starting with "The ...." ) have their stallion The Bold One ( Fastnet Rock x The Jewel) standing at Grangewilliam Stud. They have sent a number of their mares from the family to the stallion. So in this case it is really more than crossing a famous mare but a carefully nutured family. ( One could perhaps argue it is an example of crosing a tap root mare's family). It is also a bottom line crossing in the stallion and mare in each case.
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Posted By: Ticino
Date Posted: 07 Aug 2017 at 9:06pm
Hello, some mating hypothesis from a "German Eye" with the Dalmary Family. Testarossa - Cannons Crown: 2x3x4 to the 3/$ relatives Perugino/Sadlers Wells/Nureyev 3x4 Fairy Bridge, 4x5x5 Special Soldier Hollow - Cannons Crown: 3x3x4 Sadlers Wells/Nureyev + Lisadell FS Special 4x5 Shirley Heights 4x5 Kris Our Ivanhowe - Cannons Crown: 3x4x4 Sadlers Wells/Nureyev + Lisadell FS Special 5x5 Shirley Heights 5x5 Kris 5x5 Blushiing Groom Soldier Hollow stands in Germany and Our Ivanhowe is still racing, lets hope they don't geld him Some months ago I send a list of "Tailfemale breeding" to the Forum and I want to add 3x4 Feola (Authi, see Monsun/Sternkonig) 2x3 Knights Daughter or 3x4 Feola (Tell, see O'Reilly) 3x3 Nasrullah/Rivaz (Kalamoun,see Highest Honor, Kenmare) regards, Ticino
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Posted By: Gay3
Date Posted: 07 Aug 2017 at 9:42pm
Thanks Ticino Unfortunately Our Ivanhowe suffers the very common European imports 'soft feet' syndrome (poor Oz farriers?) so we're unlikely ever see the best of him with his most solid performances coming on wet tracks.
------------- Wisdom has been chasing me but I've always outrun it!
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Posted By: GAJ
Date Posted: 08 Aug 2017 at 7:58pm
Majestic, we have a young one here 2 x 3 Savannah Success, he a very good sort, let you know how he goes! Also he has deeper crosses of Natalma (5) and Something Royal and Oceana.
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Posted By: furious
Date Posted: 08 Aug 2017 at 8:11pm
Yep Savannah Success dam Alma Mater (adrian knox S) has a cross of Todman and Noholme so Oceana 4m x 4m and and I've noticed some of the Savabeels with a further cross through Imposing to Todman mostly. Some even appear with the another son Shifnal usually through one of his best daughters Jandell.
Don't know if this is always correct but I've found that inbreeding to superior females often arrives with a superior broodmare or sire. Often they produce at stud better than on the track but they can still be good racehorses or mares.
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Posted By: furious
Date Posted: 10 Aug 2017 at 1:45pm
One who you should look at is the great chestnut Triton. Gunsynds rival being a sprinter miler. Now his dam was in bred to Celebrity 2m x 3f and her dam Cinna 3f x 4f. Now Cinna (a great racemare and dam of Balloch, Beau Pere and Mr Standfast all good to great sires) herself was inbred to her grandam Quiver (dam of La Fleche Epsom Oaks, 1000 Guineas, St Leger, Ascot Gold Cup etc) 3f x 3f. So you see that Triton's dam pedigree was actually very very inbred to a females of quality. Then his sire was by Palestine who also decended from Quiver and had Carbine also in his pedigree (Carbine while not from this female line was inbred to Brown Bess 2nd dam of Quiver). This is also the family of Vice Regal, Sunday Silence and Show a Heart.
Just remember that this 3e family seem to like each other and must on the whole be sound. Triton was know for shelly feet and I pretty sure that was a fault in a different great Musket horse in Trenton. Don't know is Carbine had any issues that way.
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Posted By: Gay3
Date Posted: 10 Aug 2017 at 2:35pm
Research turned up that Carbine was at times trained barefoot so maybe to toughen his feet
------------- Wisdom has been chasing me but I've always outrun it!
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Posted By: Ticino
Date Posted: 10 Aug 2017 at 10:01pm
Hello, after the succes of Hellmet/bullbars/Epaulette in Australia from an old German Family. it's worth a look at the ped of the 3. dam "Anna Paola", she is the rare case of a very good Filly on the race track and exceptional broodmare. Anna Paola won Preis des Winterfavoriten (Juvenile, nowadays Group 3), Preis der Diana (German Oaks, Group 1); Ludwig Goebels Erinnerungs Rennen (Group 3), Berberis Rennen (Listed), 8 starts, 5 wins, 1 Placing; Champion 2 and 3 year old in Germany. Anna Paola is bred 4x4x4 FB/FS Abendfrieden/Astrologie, her dam Antwerpen 3x3 Abendfrieden, 3x4 Winnica (Family of Kincsem) Wappenau (dam of Waldcanter) is 2x2 FB/FS Alchimist/Antonia and/or 3x3 out of FS Adresse/Aversion (all from Alveole Family) Damsire of "Prince Ippi" Agamemnon (!) is bred 1x3 Herold, Herold is 3x4 Hampton and Antonia 3x3 Ard Patrick Btw, Tiger Hill, who shuttled to Australia is a member of the Family of Carbine/Musket, admittingly via a quite uncommon strain, he traces to Baroness La Fleche, a HS of Cinna. Carbine was introduced in German peds, as example via Bramouse (Dam of Birkhahn/Burgermeister) - Cappiello - Spion Kop - Spearmint - Carbine. An interesting observation Tiger Hill's damsire was Appiani, who inturn is the Sire of Star Appeal. regards, Ticino
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Posted By: diomed
Date Posted: 16 Aug 2017 at 11:50pm
Here is a list of colts, geldings, fillies with two or more females producing females in six generations. The list is in descending merit order (imo).
I'm using a database of 159,660 rated horses: colts, geldings, fillies. (average rating 78.7) There are 6,822 horses in the data with one or more females producing 2+ females. (average rating 82.3) These 119 have two females duplicated producing females (4+) (average rating (84.5) I live in Dublin and the data is Ireland, Great Britain heavy.
I don't have info for a female duplication producing females in the positions in your test-mating. Thatching (1975) has females on his dam lines similar to your duplication. Of course many of the duplicated dams in the horse at the top of my list are famous dams.
Name |
DOC |
SEX |
d_ff |
d_ffff |
REVOKED |
1943 |
M |
2 |
0 |
TAPIOCA |
1953 |
M |
2 |
0 |
VELOCITY |
1902 |
M |
2 |
0 |
SILVER CHARM |
1994 |
M |
2 |
0 |
THATCHING |
1975 |
M |
2 |
0 |
RUNAWAY GROOM |
1979 |
M |
2 |
0 |
GOLDEN THATCH |
1976 |
M |
2 |
0 |
HEIGHT OF FASHION |
1979 |
F |
2 |
0 |
GAUL |
1959 |
M |
2 |
0 |
DAY IS DONE |
1979 |
M |
2 |
0 |
ADMIRE AURA |
2004 |
M |
2 |
0 |
MISS GRIS |
1982 |
F |
2 |
0 |
MALENKA |
1982 |
F |
2 |
0 |
PENCADER |
1991 |
M |
2 |
0 |
FANCY NASKRA |
1978 |
F |
2 |
0 |
MENELEK |
1957 |
M |
2 |
0 |
REVIELLE |
1976 |
M |
2 |
0 |
LEFT HAND |
2013 |
F |
2 |
0 |
CHASTAR |
1974 |
F |
2 |
0 |
PHIL'S FANCY |
1976 |
F |
2 |
0 |
TRANQUILITY LAKE |
1995 |
F |
2 |
0 |
NAFISAH |
1998 |
F |
2 |
0 |
STARTINO |
1983 |
F |
2 |
0 |
IRISH |
1972 |
M |
2 |
0 |
MYSTERIOUS LIGHT (11) |
2005 |
M |
2 |
0 |
ALMA ATA |
1978 |
F |
2 |
0 |
CONSIGLIERE |
1988 |
M |
2 |
0 |
SOUND OF HEART |
2009 |
F |
2 |
0 |
FROSTY WELCOME |
1999 |
F |
2 |
0 |
KATHMANBLU |
2008 |
F |
2 |
0 |
HEARTILY |
2011 |
F |
2 |
0 |
ULTRASONIC |
2009 |
F |
2 |
0 |
GRAIN D'ORGE |
1956 |
M |
2 |
0 |
CHOKAI FIGHT |
2003 |
M |
2 |
0 |
BEDLAM BERTIE |
2003 |
G |
2 |
0 |
BLINDING SPEED |
1991 |
M |
2 |
0 |
TACHYON KURU |
2006 |
M |
2 |
0 |
GRATEFUL TIME |
2004 |
M |
2 |
0 |
RAYSIZA |
1997 |
F |
2 |
0 |
NINTH INFANTRY |
2007 |
F |
2 |
0 |
SUZUKA SAMBA |
2004 |
M |
2 |
0 |
DON'T WARY |
1988 |
F |
1 |
1 |
MAJURA |
2005 |
F |
2 |
0 |
SOUND MUSIC |
2008 |
F |
2 |
0 |
FELINO |
2003 |
G |
2 |
0 |
LOVE LEGEND |
1985 |
G |
2 |
0 |
DIXIE CHICKEN |
2007 |
F |
2 |
0 |
PROFIT ALERT |
1995 |
F |
2 |
0 |
ALMEIDO |
1948 |
M |
2 |
0 |
TAGANO INNOCENCE |
2007 |
F |
2 |
0 |
STORM HILL |
1996 |
M |
2 |
0 |
GOSBECK |
2008 |
F |
2 |
0 |
VICTORY MARCH |
2007 |
F |
2 |
0 |
COIMBRA |
1982 |
F |
2 |
0 |
JOURNEY TIME |
2005 |
F |
2 |
0 |
LAXFORD BRIDGE |
1991 |
M |
2 |
0 |
MAMOURA |
1990 |
F |
2 |
0 |
GREENVADOR |
2003 |
M |
2 |
0 |
GLORY DAYS |
1998 |
M |
2 |
0 |
VIENNA WALTZ |
2004 |
F |
2 |
0 |
THURI |
1953 |
M |
2 |
0 |
DESERT FORCE |
1989 |
M |
2 |
0 |
ARLINGTON HEIGHTS |
1989 |
M |
2 |
0 |
NONA |
1984 |
F |
2 |
0 |
BEACON HILL |
1978 |
F |
2 |
0 |
GULF HARBOUR |
1994 |
G |
2 |
0 |
AU REVOIR |
1969 |
F |
2 |
0 |
VAILLANT PRINCE |
2001 |
M |
2 |
0 |
ELECTRONIC SOCKS |
2004 |
F |
2 |
0 |
BIZZY NIZZY |
2010 |
M |
2 |
0 |
BLUE TICK HOUND |
2008 |
G |
2 |
0 |
OUR VISION |
1987 |
G |
2 |
0 |
MARILYN |
1989 |
F |
2 |
0 |
UNASSISTED |
1993 |
F |
2 |
0 |
VERDEUSE |
1987 |
F |
2 |
0 |
BOLD ENCOUNTER |
1991 |
F |
2 |
0 |
FREISTATT |
1975 |
F |
2 |
0 |
MERAN |
1972 |
F |
2 |
0 |
CHICA MIA |
1984 |
F |
2 |
0 |
FRISCO SON |
1992 |
M |
2 |
0 |
PONDICHERRY |
1990 |
F |
2 |
0 |
BILLBERRY |
2005 |
G |
2 |
0 |
LASTMAN |
1995 |
G |
2 |
0 |
ASH PROJECT |
1994 |
M |
2 |
0 |
GUARDS BRIGADE |
1991 |
G |
2 |
0 |
HURRICANE LOUIS |
1996 |
M |
2 |
0 |
LUCKY DIP |
1994 |
F |
1 |
1 |
PAPER DANCE |
1988 |
G |
2 |
0 |
SURVIVAL VENTURE |
1996 |
G |
2 |
0 |
ARTHUR'S STONE |
1986 |
G |
2 |
0 |
MISS BOWL |
2010 |
F |
2 |
0 |
PULMICORT |
1990 |
G |
2 |
0 |
SHIMMER |
1989 |
F |
2 |
0 |
DISMAY |
2008 |
F |
2 |
0 |
TOUCH MY HEART |
1978 |
F |
2 |
0 |
COMMUNITY |
2008 |
F |
2 |
0 |
WELSH MANSION |
1986 |
G |
2 |
0 |
ALPHA HELIX |
1983 |
G |
2 |
0 |
FLASH OF LIGHT |
1998 |
F |
2 |
0 |
ARMINITA |
1995 |
F |
2 |
0 |
REPLACEMENT |
1987 |
G |
2 |
0 |
GRAND ILLUSION |
1999 |
G |
2 |
0 |
JAWATA |
1971 |
F |
2 |
0 |
WINTER DOLPHIN |
1998 |
F |
2 |
0 |
DARING JOY |
1987 |
F |
2 |
0 |
ROYAL GLEN |
1998 |
F |
2 |
0 |
TEXAS FRIDAY |
1990 |
G |
2 |
0 |
AFRICAN SAFARI |
1984 |
G |
2 |
0 |
CHARLIES DREAM |
1991 |
F |
1 |
1 |
TAROUCCA |
1992 |
F |
2 |
0 |
ASCOM PAGER TOO |
1990 |
F |
2 |
0 |
KOMASEPH |
1992 |
G |
1 |
1 |
BAEZA |
1990 |
G |
2 |
0 |
PRINCE CONFEY |
1994 |
M |
2 |
0 |
IL FRATELLO |
1991 |
G |
2 |
0 |
BENAZIR LADY |
1991 |
F |
2 |
0 |
TAN PRINCESS |
1987 |
F |
2 |
0 |
CELESTIAL |
1991 |
F |
2 |
0 |
MEDESSA |
1973 |
F |
2 |
0 |
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Posted By: furious
Date Posted: 17 Aug 2017 at 1:37pm
Great mares like Plucky Liege (Crafty Admiral), Lalun (through Never Bend and Bold Reason), Scapa Flow (Showdown/Vain etc), Selene (Sir Tristram), Flaming Page (Northerly), Somethingroyal (Veandercross), Star Kingdom (Canterbury Pilgrim), Midstream (Quiver), Heroic (Illuminata), Carbine (Brown Bess), and any Danehill (Natalma) and any other Danehill/Northern Dancer cross gives you more Natalma and any Danehill cross to Halo (ie the More Than Ready/Flying Spur cross) gives you Almahmoud dam of Natalma and Cosmah.
The last two are in plenty of good and bad pedigrees. It still all depends on the class of the mares used and whether the two (sire and dam) combine well.
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Posted By: Ticino
Date Posted: 17 Aug 2017 at 9:27pm
Hello, when I started my pedigreestudies I was very surprised to recognise, who many our "top Broodmares/Foundationmares" were either very mediocre fillies on the racetrack/unraced or their race track performernce was discribed as "raced a few times". Let's take as example "Sterna" (by Neckar) she raced 6 times with 4 placings, but her HS "Santa Cruz" was Champion filly 3 year old and Champion older Fillies. Sterna is the dam of Star Appeal (Germany's first Arc Winner in 1975), granddam of Strong Gale (won a Group 3 race in Germany and was later a very good "National Hunt" sire) and 3rd dam of Sternkonig (by Kalaglow) Opposite to mayn other racing Nations still "unraced" fillies are used for breeding purposes, in some cases could it be to keep a family a life, because our breeding Population is much smaller than in AUS and their is the possibility of fatal racing accidents. Some of our breeding stock was purchased during the 1940's and here I read the info, "Unraced due to the war". Btw, Furious mentioned Plucky Liege, here in Germany we have the "Prompt Payment" branch tracing to Noor Jahan (by Teddy), a FS of Bull Dog/Sir Gallahad, see Pia, Chief Singer, Protektor, Winged Love, Pleasantly Perfect/Distant View (Noor Jahan) and a sire named Santus (Miesque) regards, Ticino
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Posted By: furious
Date Posted: 18 Aug 2017 at 10:41am
Posted By: furious
Date Posted: 20 Aug 2017 at 4:40pm
For a prime example ofLalan I should of put High Chaparral. Fairy Bridge (Bold Reason) and Shirley Heights/Mill Reef (Never Bend).
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Posted By: djebel
Date Posted: 20 Aug 2017 at 6:07pm
I look foward to seeing horses running around with treble crosses of Winx.
------------- reductio ad absurdum
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Posted By: furious
Date Posted: 20 Aug 2017 at 6:12pm
Urban Sea also in a few years time you would think. Plenty of sire sons to choose from to cross back to Galileo line.
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Posted By: Aussiepunta
Date Posted: 21 Aug 2017 at 8:59pm
Might put WAR on the list for the mare i part own too, cant have too much Denise's Joy.
------------- Im just an ex con tryna go straight and get my kids back.
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Posted By: furious
Date Posted: 25 Aug 2017 at 3:12pm
Would of been nice if Meurice hadn't of died to see if he would of crossed with mares with Rubiton or Euclase in the pedigree. Breeding back to Ruby.
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Posted By: Einstein
Date Posted: 25 Aug 2017 at 10:16pm
furious wrote:
Would of been nice if Meurice hadn't of died to see if he would of crossed with mares with Rubiton or Euclase in the pedigree. Breeding back to Ruby. |
Not the Maurice who is at Arrowfield???
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Posted By: djebel
Date Posted: 25 Aug 2017 at 10:44pm
Einstein wrote:
furious wrote:
Would of been nice if Meurice hadn't of died to see if he would of crossed with mares with Rubiton or Euclase in the pedigree. Breeding back to Ruby.<div id="UMS_TOOLTIP" style="left: -100000px; top: -100000px; cursor: pointer;"> |
Not the Maurice who is at Arrowfield??? |
No.
He won the 2007 Champagne Stakes.
------------- reductio ad absurdum
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Posted By: Majestic
Date Posted: 02 Sep 2017 at 10:06pm
Can someone give me an idea re doubling, tripling up on Special. Unfortunately, War is not an option with my partner in the HC mare.
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Posted By: furious
Date Posted: 03 Sep 2017 at 9:43am
Special being the dam of Nureyev? Or the Special that was an Australian G1 winner?
It the first you can find plenty of Fairy Bridge/Nureyev crosses as above Dundeel being one of them.
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Posted By: kavg
Date Posted: 03 Sep 2017 at 1:58pm
Majestic wrote:
Can someone give me an idea re doubling, tripling up on Special. Unfortunately, War is not an option with my partner in the HC mare. |
Majestic, if you have a HC mare then you don't want to go to another sadlers wells stallion. You may as well try Testa Rossa-apparently those that saw him at stallion parade on this forum reported he looked like a youngster.
To get the cross of Special then any thing with Fairy Bridge which includes Perugino Sadlers and Fairy King. But you also get it via Nureyev, so any stallion with Zabeel, Stravinsky etc will give you a cross.
For what it is worth my suggestion would be Hallowed Crown. Showed good qualities as a racehorse;has stree6t cry which I feel will work well with HC; has danehill which works well with sadlers and is from the female family of Zabeel (ie his dam Lady Giselle is great granddam of Hallowed) and HC and Zabeel works very well and it gives you a doubling of Special.
------------- Prejudice is an emotional attachment to ignorance. DiEM25 for the world.
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Posted By: Muddy
Date Posted: 25 Dec 2017 at 10:14am
furious wrote:
Would of been nice if Meurice hadn't of died to see if he would of crossed with mares with Rubiton or Euclase in the pedigree. Breeding back to Ruby.<div id="UMS_TOOLTIP" style=": ; cursor: pointer; : 2147483647; : transparent; top: -100000px; left: -100000px;"> |
Agree 100%. He was a highly spruiked horse with freakish ability. I am thinking along the same lines and tempted to send a Rubiton mare to Ready For Victory to duplicate Ruby. She is one of the most influential mares of more a colonial line. I think Stewart Ramsey’s breeding formula is based on something like we are discussing. He’s been very successful
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Posted By: linghi11
Date Posted: 25 Dec 2017 at 7:37pm
Does anyone have a list of these influential broodmares? Of care to make one up :)
------------- to the victor
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Posted By: Breeder
Date Posted: 25 Dec 2017 at 8:26pm
Try Googling Blue Hen mares.
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Posted By: Shrunk in the Wash
Date Posted: 26 Dec 2017 at 10:48am
linghi11 wrote:
Does anyone have a list of these influential broodmares? Of care to make one up :) |
Im no expert but I'll throw up a few Four Carat Shanthas Choice Hot Rhythm Circles of Gold
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Posted By: goldey
Date Posted: 26 Dec 2017 at 10:57am
Thong seems to be going well in our conditions.
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Posted By: Glencoe
Date Posted: 26 Dec 2017 at 7:54pm
Colin Hayes always looked for Aurora
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Posted By: furious
Date Posted: 26 Dec 2017 at 7:58pm
Some of the best Luskin Star's had double cross to Aurora
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Posted By: djebel
Date Posted: 26 Dec 2017 at 8:20pm
Book ShopInbreeding to Superior Females http://shop.bluebloods.com.au/" rel="nofollow - $250 http://shop.bluebloods.com.au/" rel="nofollow - Visit the Book Shop
------------- reductio ad absurdum
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Posted By: djebel
Date Posted: 26 Dec 2017 at 8:21pm
How on earth do they justify that price ?
I have the book, It was given to me for nothing.
It is like reading a kindergarten book.
------------- reductio ad absurdum
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Posted By: linghi11
Date Posted: 27 Dec 2017 at 10:17am
djebel wrote:
How on earth do they justify that price ?
I have the book, It was given to me for nothing.
It is like reading a kindergarten book. |
Thoroughbred stuff has a wedding-like mark up for everything!
------------- to the victor
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Posted By: linghi11
Date Posted: 27 Dec 2017 at 10:19am
From what I hear, the genetics study is finding that outcrossing thoroughbreds is more successful than inbreeding them, so one must have to find some very particular lines for it to work well.
------------- to the victor
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Posted By: furious
Date Posted: 27 Dec 2017 at 10:33am
linghi often the outcrossing is really finding the lines like Bletchingly and Danzig which don't cross till Lady Susan (GB) 1893. So no close inbreeding but there is no doubt that those two - from the same female line liked each other very much.
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Posted By: Mr Prospector
Date Posted: 29 Dec 2017 at 1:17pm
The thoroughbred broodmare bookAuthor: | http://www.worldcat.org/search?q=au%3AHarper%2C+Clive.&qt=hot_author" rel="nofollow - Clive Harper |
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Publisher: | Derby, KS : Matter of Record, ©2003. |
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Edition/Format: | Print book : English |
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Rating: | (not yet rated) http://www.worldcat.org/title/thoroughbred-broodmare-book/oclc/318418860#reviews" rel="nofollow - 0 with reviews - Be the first. |
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Subjects | - http://www.worldcat.org/search?q=su%3AThoroughbred+horse+Pedigrees.&qt=hot_subject" rel="nofollow - Thoroughbred horse -- Pedigrees.
- http://www.worldcat.org/search?q=su%3AMares+Pedigrees.&qt=hot_subject" rel="nofollow - Mares -- Pedigrees.
- http://www.worldcat.org/search?q=su%3ARace+horses+Pedigrees.&qt=hot_subject" rel="nofollow - Race horses -- Pedigrees.
- http://www.worldcat.org/title/thoroughbred-broodmare-book/oclc/318418860#relatedsubjects" rel="nofollow - View all subjects
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More like this | - http://www.worldcat.org/title/thoroughbred-broodmare-book/oclc/318418860#similar" rel="nofollow - Similar Items
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The Thoroughbred Broodmare Book by Clive Harper
If you can get a copy of this its worth a read , he discusses the pedigree paterns in detail of top Broodmares that have produced multiple G1 winners in various regions of the world .
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Posted By: Breeder
Date Posted: 29 Dec 2017 at 2:25pm
Agree on the Clive Harper book. I have it and it's strength is it gives all the points that are common with the mare's successful offspring allowing you to form your own conclusions even if you don't agree with author.
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Posted By: Mr Prospector
Date Posted: 29 Dec 2017 at 2:37pm
Its not overly verbose as some of the breeding books can be and very easy to follow his explanations with the pedigrees laid out beside his ideas .
Its the only one of the Harper books I have but would love a copy of his last book . Patterns of patterns I think its called . Have you read it Breeder and if so is it worth chasing a copy ?
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Posted By: Breeder
Date Posted: 29 Dec 2017 at 5:49pm
Yes i have read it Mr Prosoector ( I think have all of Clive's books) It is of the same quality as the others so well worth getting if you can find a copy.
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Posted By: Paul Hogan
Date Posted: 29 Dec 2017 at 6:19pm
Fake News!
Get a broodmare cross her with a basic well known cross i.e. Lonhro x Danehill etc, etc and hope for the best.
It's a DNA lottery.
------------- Jim
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Posted By: furious
Date Posted: 10 Mar 2018 at 3:01pm
Would love to see Bella Martini visit Written By when they both go to stud. Both decend from Humour dam of four stakes winners of 18 races inc Marceau (Rawson S (twice), Doomben Cup etc), Zasu (Queensland Oaks, Champagne S, SAJC Sires' Prod), Runyon (Perth Cup) and Joy Love (Expressway S). So you can also see the distances which her stakes winning progeny won over was from 1000 to 3200m. She was a great mare and it is lovely to see her line still firing.
I've been following Bella Martini's dam Silverbeat's foals out of the yearling sales for years and she also has four stakes winners including one in Macau (a MacG1 which isn't listed on the Australian Stud book site). Bella Martini could be her best and yes I marked her to follow although she was withdrawn! The others two I had in Volcanic Ash (Volcanic General in Australia) and Alpha Beat were both geldings and I wanted a filly to follow.
This is also the family of Pins who was out of a daughter of Humour who also produced 4 stakes winners.
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Posted By: furious
Date Posted: 10 Mar 2018 at 3:15pm
Volcanic Ash was a MalG1 winner twice not Macau. Got the wrong country!
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Posted By: Breeder
Date Posted: 03 Jun 2018 at 10:12am
The Derby result overnight was a good result for who following line breeding to top mares. Masar is line bred to Urban Sea
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Posted By: furious
Date Posted: 03 Jun 2018 at 10:18am
You can't get a much better mare than that one breeder.
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Posted By: Ticino
Date Posted: 03 Jun 2018 at 10:33am
Hello, Masar, the winner of the English Derby is another success of the Family of Alveole, which has produced 0714 (!) German Derbywinners since 1914 (Ariel) and in 2007 Adlerflug (4x4 Mill Reef, Granddam Alya FS of Allegretta) Of course I noted the the inbreeding to Urban Sea 3x4 and Ahonoora 3x4, something you don't see so often. Btw, there is one more 'hidden' German Sire in his ped, Selkirk-Nebbiolo-Birkhahn (he carries Spion Kop via Cappiello)-Alchimist. regards, Ticino
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Posted By: lulu
Date Posted: 03 Jun 2018 at 1:47pm
Hi Ticino,
I would be interested on your opinion of a mating of Churchill over a Kings Best mare. Doubling up on Allegretta. A lovely mare from your neck of the woods.
Cheers
------------- You're either Einstein or Frankenstein in this game.
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Posted By: Isaac soloman
Date Posted: 04 Jun 2018 at 12:18pm
Breeder wrote:
The Derby result overnight was a good result for who following line breeding to top mares.Masar is line bred to Urban Sea |
Naval Warfare may get a reprieve.
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