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Stratum Star

Printed From: Thoroughbred Village
Category: Horse Breeding - Public Forums
Forum Name: Stallions
Forum Description: Stallion appraisals and trends
URL: http://forum.thoroughbredvillage.com.au/forum_posts.asp?TID=59938
Printed Date: 16 Jul 2018 at 10:33pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.10 - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: Stratum Star
Posted By: Magnolian Khan
Subject: Stratum Star
Date Posted: 07 Apr 2017 at 1:08pm
Standing at widden for $11k



Replies:
Posted By: troppo75
Date Posted: 07 Apr 2017 at 1:22pm
Good on them for getting a Stratum. I think he's a chance

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Now having passed 1000 posts I feel you are all so much the wiser for my having said... stuff!


Posted By: furious
Date Posted: 07 Apr 2017 at 1:48pm
Emancipation was a favourite of mine.  I've given up trying to work out which stallion will make it.  I seem to be hopeless!


Posted By: Glencoe
Date Posted: 07 Apr 2017 at 6:40pm
Another young hopeful purchased by Rick Hore-Lacyas a Yrlg. That man was a good judge.


Posted By: Second Chance
Date Posted: 07 Apr 2017 at 6:48pm
Absolutely correct.  Star

It's a matter of real regret that Rick who was intelligent, educated and talented ended up with the ass out of his pants.


Posted By: Cityboy
Date Posted: 07 Apr 2017 at 7:06pm
Seems quite reasonably priced


Posted By: Shawy38
Date Posted: 07 Apr 2017 at 8:30pm
Bloody good horse on his day


Posted By: hopeforall
Date Posted: 12 Apr 2017 at 10:45am
STRATUM STAR - Bay horse
[Stratum (Redoutes Choice)-Purely Spectacular (Pins-NZ)]
Stakes: $2.4M

1st
Kingston Town G1
Rupert Clarke G1
Peter Young Stakes G2
Coongy DJ Cup G3
Gothic Stakes  L
Yellow Glen Stakes  L

2nd
Futurity Stakes G1 (Turn Me Loose)
Sandow Stakes G2 (Redkirk Warrior)
Alister Clarke Stakes G2 (Chill Party)
Sandown Guines G2 (Petrology)
Carbine Club Stakes G3 (Kermadec)

3rd
Australian Guineas G1 (Wandjina)
Memsie Stakes G1 (Boban)
Toorak HCP G1 (Lucky Hussler)
QTC Cup G2 (Spill the Beans)
Blamey Stakes G2 (He or She)
CS Hayes Stakes G3 (Wandjina)
QTC Cup G2 (Spill the Beans)
Glasshouse HCP L (Flamboyer)

4th
Australia Cup G1 (Humidor)

An interesting sire who has proved a durable and competitive sprinter/middle distance type.  Would think at 11k there's a solid market for him? His sire I would think is very commercial and out of Redoute's Choice.  The immediate female family looks OK without being spectacular. 2  G1's albeit not iconic type races and a solid top 3 in several notable stakes races into his Fifth year.  Would think he'll get a reasonable number of good mares and be given a chance at stud.






Posted By: crooked_gambler
Date Posted: 12 Apr 2017 at 1:21pm
I think they have made a very good business decision pricing him at 11k, good value for money and I think he will be close to be booked out

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This space has been intentionally left blank


Posted By: Lordy
Date Posted: 12 Apr 2017 at 1:42pm
Originally posted by crooked_gambler crooked_gambler wrote:

I think they have made a very good business decision pricing him at 11k, good value for money and I think he will be close to be booked out

Quality hose, nicely bred, accessible price. Lacking one key trait that makes a sucessful 1st season sire....hype.


Posted By: furious
Date Posted: 12 Apr 2017 at 3:04pm
I've notice quite a few of the Widden stallions go under the radar.  They just seem to be quiet achievers.


Posted By: Aurelius
Date Posted: 12 Apr 2017 at 3:52pm
Like him but unfortunately left it all out on the track.

Maybe but the odds are against him.



Posted By: MichaelM
Date Posted: 12 Apr 2017 at 5:04pm
Originally posted by Aurelius Aurelius wrote:

Like him but unfortunately left it all out on the track.

Maybe but the odds are against him.


Are you trying to say, that his ability to pass on his genetic traits is somehow affected by having a 37 start racing career?  


Posted By: furious
Date Posted: 12 Apr 2017 at 5:31pm
Lonhro had 35 starts.  Better Boy a marvelous sire had over 50 starts.  Halo had 31 starts.  They can race on and be great sires.


Posted By: ianb
Date Posted: 12 Apr 2017 at 5:53pm
Not often furious. But hey it's all personal belief

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current stable...Giuliani.


Posted By: bradjm
Date Posted: 12 Apr 2017 at 7:33pm
I think sequalo had quite a number of starts from memory

However on stratum star, he wont be anywhere near a commercial stallion unless he proves himself because as lordy pointed out ... hype.


Posted By: Aurelius
Date Posted: 12 Apr 2017 at 7:48pm
Originally posted by MichaelM MichaelM wrote:

Originally posted by Aurelius Aurelius wrote:

Like him but unfortunately left it all out on the track.

Maybe but the odds are against him.



Are you trying to say, that his ability to pass on his genetic traits is somehow affected by having a 37 start racing career?  




Posted By: Cityboy
Date Posted: 13 Apr 2017 at 5:30am
Originally posted by furious furious wrote:

Lonhro had 35 starts.  Better Boy a marvelous sire had over 50 starts.  Halo had 31 starts.  They can race on and be great sires.<div id="UMS_TOOLTIP" style=": ; cursor: pointer; : 2147483647; : transparent; top: -100000px; left: -100000px;">


Danewin had 31 starts

Well raced and tested racehorses can't be good stallions = myth


Posted By: Ammy42
Date Posted: 13 Apr 2017 at 12:33pm
And needless to say, many stallions with short careers have turned out to have sub-par fertility. Mouawad had only about eight starts, didn't he? Al Kazeem only had about twelve I think, and Guineas was retired right after the Slipper and fired blanks. 


Posted By: djebel
Date Posted: 13 Apr 2017 at 12:39pm
STRATUM STAR (AUS)Chestnut colt 2011 
Stratum
Bay 2002
Redoute's Choice
Bay 1996
Danehill
Bay 1986
Danzig
Bay 1977
Northern Dancer
Pas de Nom
1961
1968
2-d
7-a
Razyana
Bay 1981
His Majesty
Spring Adieu
1968
1974
4-d
2-d
Shantha's Choice
Bay 1992
Canny Lad
Brown 1987
Bletchingly
Jesmond Lass
1970
1975
7-a
14>
Dancing Show
Bay 1983
Nijinsky
Show Lady
1967
1976
8-f
8-f
Bourgeois
Chestnut 1991
Luskin Star
Chestnut 1974
Kaoru Star
Chestnut 1965
Star Kingdom
Kaoru
1946
1955
1-g
31>
Promising
Chestnut 1968
Idomeneo
Modern Touch
1960
1963
2-i
2-e
Brave New World
Chestnut 1980
Vain
Chestnut 1966
Wilkes
Elated
1952
1957
13-c
A10
Undaunted
Bay or brown 1972
Le Cordonnier
Broadlea
1963
1956
2-n
4-n
Purely Spectacular
Bay 2006
Pins
Bay 1996
Snippets
Bay 1984
Lunchtime
Chestnut 1970
Silly Season
Great Occasion
1962
1965
1-g
7-f
Easy Date
Bay 1977
Grand Chaudiere
Scampering
1968
1970
19-b
20-a
No Finer
Chestnut 1979
Kaoru Star
Chestnut 1965
Star Kingdom
Kaoru
1946
1955
1-g
31>
Humour
Bay 1962
Pirate King
Real Delight
1953
1951
21-a
16-g
Vanilla Sky
Grey 1999
O'Reilly
Brown 1993
Last Tycoon
Bay or brown 1983
Try My Best
Mill Princess
1975
1977
8-f
8-c
Courtza
Bay 1986
Pompeii Court
Hunza
1977
1970
1-p
13-b
Principation
Grey 1987
Prince Echo
Chestnut 1978
Crowned Prince
Dawn Echo
1969
1973
4-d
8-c
Emancipation
Grey 1979
Bletchingly
Ammo Girl
1970
1974
7-a
3-l
 Ancestor duplications:Bletchingly5m x 5f Kaoru Star4m x 4f


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STRIKE WHILST THE IRON IS HOT

reductio ad absurdum

The richest man is not he who has the most, but he who needs the least.



Posted By: djebel
Date Posted: 13 Apr 2017 at 12:40pm
He, Criterion and the like are perfect marketing tools for stallion farms.

They are proven toughness, proven ability and proven soundness.

If they can not make HYPE out of that they are not trying.




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STRIKE WHILST THE IRON IS HOT

reductio ad absurdum

The richest man is not he who has the most, but he who needs the least.



Posted By: Gay3
Date Posted: 13 Apr 2017 at 12:49pm
I love his breeding & think he'll suit a wide spectrum of Oz mares with some super linebreding opportunities Thumbs Up


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Experience is something you gain a few minutes after you could have used it!


Posted By: Aurelius
Date Posted: 13 Apr 2017 at 8:10pm
Originally posted by Cityboy Cityboy wrote:

Originally posted by furious furious wrote:

Lonhro had 35 starts.  Better Boy a marvelous sire had over 50 starts.  Halo had 31 starts.  They can race on and be great sires.<div id="UMS_TOOLTIP" style=": ; cursor: pointer; : 2147483647; : transparent; top: -100000px; left: -100000px;">


Danewin had 31 starts

Well raced and tested racehorses can't be good stallions = myth


Are you trying to say, that his ability to pass on his genetic traits is somehow affected by having a 37 start racing career?


Posted By: Cityboy
Date Posted: 14 Apr 2017 at 1:52pm
I'm not sure whether that repeated question above is made to me. However, to.be clear, I wouldn't be the least bit worried about his number of race starts having a negative effect on his capabilities as a stallion.


Posted By: Isaac soloman
Date Posted: 14 Apr 2017 at 3:11pm
Surely, if a stallion can race on over several seasons he has to have 
1 a good temperament
2 constitution
3 sound, therefore a good type
Good for genetics. 
Hope he makes it.


Posted By: Isaac soloman
Date Posted: 14 Apr 2017 at 3:12pm
Plenty of good old australian blood in him.


Posted By: Aurelius
Date Posted: 14 Apr 2017 at 8:10pm
Originally posted by Cityboy Cityboy wrote:

I'm not sure whether that repeated question above is made to me. However, to.be clear, I wouldn't be the least bit worried about his number of race starts having a negative effect on his capabilities as a stallion.


Well you should.


Posted By: furious
Date Posted: 15 Apr 2017 at 8:39am
Aurelius - retiring young immature three year olds doesn't seem to be working.  

Heroic was champion sire seven times and ran in 51 races.  The great South Africian sire Foveros was Champion sire 9 times after 37 starts.  Halo had 31, Fair Play sire of Man O'War had 32 starts.  Century had 29, Carbine had 43, Discovery had 63, Alcimedes had 34, Bold Ruler 33 etc etc etc.

Good sires are good because they have what it takes to make a good sire.  He may or may not make it but his starts are the least of his worries.


Posted By: Aurelius
Date Posted: 15 Apr 2017 at 6:36pm
Statistics show that Stallions who have had more than 25 starts have less chance of success as a potential stallion.

Of course people can rattle of Lonhro and the list you have mentioned below and there would be more, very good sires seem to be able to buck the trend.

Facts are facts however and the odds are against him.

What baffles me are the likes if Goerge Michael, I said
he may succeed but the odds are against.

He either cannot read or is just fishing for a nonsensical argument probably both!


Posted By: furious
Date Posted: 15 Apr 2017 at 10:04pm
Yes there are just as many stallion with less starts who made good.  

You don't have to be overraced to have 30 to 40 starts.  You can be more overraced to have just 9 starts.  It depends on the time in which those starts occurred.  How the trainer has overlooked the care and attention - looking for signs of over racing or training off.


Posted By: Cityboy
Date Posted: 15 Apr 2017 at 10:10pm
If you can refer or guide us to the statistics and facts that demonstrate stallions that have run more than 25 times have a lesser chance of success then I'd Iove to see them.

However, I don't think such statistics or facts exist and therefore suspect you are simply stating one of the many myths that often get repeated,and eventually believed by many in the horse breeding world.


Posted By: bradjm
Date Posted: 16 Apr 2017 at 12:13am


Posted By: Aurelius
Date Posted: 16 Apr 2017 at 8:08am
23/06/15

I penned a story a couple of years ago about Pierro’s retirement and his possible stud success or otherwise - and in that article I made a point of mentioning that Pierro’s sire Lonhro was in many ways quite unique as “99% of what could reasonably be called successful stallions are retired from the racetrack before they’ve had 25 or more starts”.

I also noted “very few stallions that have either 1) raced in Australia, or 2) that have been imported into Australia in the last 40 years to stand at stud after their racing career is over, can prove my statement wrong”.

There’s no question that Lonhro had 35 starts, so he’s clearly one stallion that overcame my “25 or more starts” theory, but emails came into the website suggesting the names of various stallions that were also heavily raced that were “successful”. One well-known breeding buff sent me an email stating: "Re your article on Pierro's stud prospects, the missing information is what percentage of stallions with 25+ starts actually make it to stud. A very low percentage is my guess. Here are a few who won a championship of one form or another who broke your rule: Vice Regal (60 starts, 21 wins, 16 black-type), Nassipour (46-7-3), Kingdom Bay (37-13-10), Sound Reason (36-13-10), Dahar (26-6-6). Just about all of them exceeded your 60% winners-to-runners and 5% stakeswinners-to-runners parameters)".

So what I decided to do was pull out two annual Stallions books 10 years apart and that would be a fair way to research the progeny statistics of all advertised stallions in that publication that had 25 or more starts.

I worked off the earliest Stallions book that I have, which is the 1995 edition - and in that edition some 208 stallions were advertised, so here are all the stallions from that listing of 208 stallions that 1) had had 25 starts or more and 2) were considered valuable enough and marketable enough to be advertised in the publication.


Posted By: Aurelius
Date Posted: 16 Apr 2017 at 8:10am
STALLION

BEST CAREER WIN/S

NO. STARTS

SERVICE FEE

At Talaq

3 x G1 (Melb Cup)

28

$8,000

Azzaam

1 x G1 (Syd Cup)

47

$3,000

Bay of Hope

Welter

44

$2,500

Canadian Silver

Listed

29

O/A*

Celestial Dancer

G3

26

O/A*

Cenchire

Open Handicap

40

$2,500

Cossack Warrior

G2

28

$6,000

Creese

Listed

31

$2,750

Dieu D’or

Listed

32

$5,000

Donegal Mist

G1

63

$3,500

Dr Grace

3 x G1

57

$7,000

Fearless Pride

G1

27

O/A*

Forever Regal

Allowance race

51

O/A*

Gopak

Open Handicap

28

$1,500

High Regard

G1

45

$3,500

Ideal Planet

G1

34

$2,500

In The Slot

Listed

36

$1,750

Interstellar

G1

26

$3,000

Ivory Way

Welter

31

$2,500

King’s High

2 X G1

37

$5,000

Lance

G3

44

O/A*

Maharajah

G2

32

$2,000

Military Plume

2 X G1

25

$10,000

Naturalism

3 X G1

34

$12,000

New Atlantis

G2

31

$1,500

Noalcoholic

G1

28

$4,000

Northern Fred

Open Handicap

27

$2,000

Paris Prince

G2

47

O/A*

Phizam

G1

40

$1,500

Polish Blue

3YO Open

28

O/A*

Pride of Kellina

G3

30

$3,000

Prince Tattenham

Open Handicap

66

$1,250

Procol Harum

G1

31

$3,000

Quick Score

G2

28

$4,000

Rancho Ruler

G1

29

$6,000

River of Light

Listed

29

$3,000

Rode Rouge

Open Handicap

50

$1,000

Royal Pardon

G2

43

$2,500

Sanction

Open Handicap

32

$7,000

Sarab

G1

33

O/A*

Sarason

G2

28

$2,000

Shalford

G3

25

O/A*

Sea Swell

G2

27

$2,500

Somalia

Open Handicap

35

$2,000

Somethingdifferent

G2

38

$3,000

Southern Appeal

G1

50

$4,000

Sports Works

G2

25

$3,000

Super Fiesta

G1

28

O/A*

Tawrrific

G1

64

$3,000

Umatilla

G1

38

$5,000

Vain Karioi

Listed

45

$3,000

Watney

3 x G1

34

$1,000

White Bridle

Open Handicap

32

$3,000

Wonga Chief

Class 4

44

$700

Wonga’s Joy

Listed

35

$1,500

Yallah Prince

Open Handicap

40

$4,000

Yonder

G2

25

$4,000

Zoffany

3 x G1

36

$5,500


Posted By: Aurelius
Date Posted: 16 Apr 2017 at 8:11am
STALLION

WINNERS-TO-RUNNERS RATIO

STAKESWINNERS-TO-RUNNERS RATIO

At Talaq

69.27%

7.53%

Celestial Dancer

66.24%

1.45%

Cossack Warrior

68.44%

1.22%

Naturalism

57.62%

1.35%

Military Plume

70.24%

6.58%

Noalcoholic

64.60%

4.42%

Rancho Ruler

61.45%

2.60%

Zoffany

70.77%

3.89%



So as you can see from this table, many stallions were able to produce 60% winners-to-runners, or better, but they couldn’t throw the necessary number of black type winners to get them to 5% or above stakeswinners-to-runners. The classic example above is Celestial Dancer. He was a wonderful “bread and butter” sire as he could produce 66.24% winners-to-runners in his stud career yet of his 1031 individual runners, only 1.45% won a stakes race and in fact not one of those 1031 individual runners won a Group 1 race. Celestial Dancer however set a world record in the 1995/96 season by producing over 100 individual winners in a season.



If you look at the dearest priced stallion from the entire group of 58 stallions that started 25 times or more – Naturalism - he may well have won three Group 1 races (AJC Derby, Rosehill Guineas and Caulfield Stakes), but he couldn’t even throw 60% winners –to-runners and he could only throw four stakeswinners from 295 individual runners and only one of those four won at Group 3 level or above (Natural Destiny – Group 3) and one of the four won the then Listed 2001 Grand National Hurdle (Nautilism).



So from this entire group of 58 stallions only two or 3.44% were proven to be “successful” and they were At Talaq (28 starts) and Military Plume (25 starts). That conversely means that 96.56% of stallions that had had 25 starts or more were unsuccessful at stud, so taking the number of starts that a stallion has in his racing career should constitute a far more important factor to broodmare owners looking for a stallion for their mare/s, stud masters sourcing a stallion, or yearling buyers attending sales than it is currently given.



I also wish to publicly thank “Australia and New Zealand’s leading thoroughbred pedigree provider” Arion Pedigrees ( http://www.arion.co.nz" rel="nofollow - www.arion.co.nz ) for their wonderful assistance in getting me the final statistical progeny figures of some of these stallions that stood 18 years ago, so that I could research the article fully.


Posted By: Aurelius
Date Posted: 16 Apr 2017 at 8:14am
24/06/15

Yesterday I displayed publicly an article which researched the stud career of all advertised stallions that stood in Australia in 1995 - that had had 25 starts or more. The annual Stallions book was the source to name the stallions, as it’s not a cheap exercise to advertise stallions in books like that, so I figured by advertising in that publication, owners of the various stallions were happy in their own mind that their stallion/s were deemed "commercial" and were at least a marketable entity.

The article that I wrote yesterday can be read by clicking on the last article at the bottom of this one. It showed that of the 58 "commercial" stallions that stood in Australia in 1995 and had had 25 or more starts, which were advertised in Stallions, only two were deemed to be “successful” by virtue of the fact that they’d achieved a winners-to-runners ratio of 60% as well as a stakeswinners-to-runners ratio of 5%.

As at 2005 the stallions named below, that had 25 starts inclusive or more, were advertised in the Stallions book of that year. Naturally some of the stallions that were named in the 1995 article were still standing at stud in 2005, so their names will be duplicated here. As a matter of interest 282 stallions were advertised in the Stallions publication in 2005.

Here is the complete list from 2005 Stallions - of stallions that had 25 starts or more:

STALLION

BEST CAREER WIN

NO. STARTS

SERVICE FEE

Adam

2 X G1

51

$5,000

Admiralty

G3

41

$3,300

Arena

2 X G1

32

$13,750

Black Hawk

2 X G1

28

$11,000

Blevic

2 X G1

26

$5,500

Canadian Silver

G2

29

FOA*

Centre Stalls

Listed

26

$3,300

Chatline

3YO Open

27

FOA*

Citizen Kane

G3

34

$2,000

Curata Storm

G1

31

$3,080

Danbird

G2

28

$8,800

Danewin

5 X G1

31

$22,000

Dash For Cash

2 X G1

30

$11,000

Delzao

G2

27

$7,700

Diatribe

2 X G1

33

$8,250

Dieu D’or

Listed

32

$3,300

Ebony Grosve

2 X G1

29

$11,000

Elvstroem

5 x G1

28

$38,500

Falbrav

10 X G1

26

$38,500

Falvelon

2 X G1

37

$13,750

Fantastic Light

6 x G1

25

$27,500

Filante

2 X G1

25

$5,500

Fraar

1 X G1

35

$4,400

Half Hennessy

1 X G1

25

$8,800

High Rolling

Listed

28

$4,400

Hobb Alwahtan

Open H/cap

29

$3,300

Immovable Option

G2

26

FOA*

Inflate

Listed

25

$3,300

Intergaze

8 x G1

49

$5,500

Jetway

Open H/cap

61

$2,200

Jeune

4 X G1

42

$12,100

Lawyer

G2

34

$3,300

Lonhro

11 X G1

35

$66,000

Manner Hill

G3

41

$5,500

Marwina

G3

27

$5,500

Mr Innocent

G1

39

$6,050

Mugharreb

Listed

28

$5,500

My Patriarch

G3

26

$2,200

Naturalism

3 X G1

34

$2,500

Nediym

G3

41

$3,300

Nothin’ Leica Dane

2 X G1

27

$5,500

Octagonal

10 X G1

28

$33,000

Principality

1 X G1

25

$3,850

Reenact

1 X G1

30

$5,500

Right Wing

G3

37

$4,400

Saithor

Open H/cap

29

$3,300

Sequalo

G2

40

FOA*

Shags

Listed

39

$2,000

Show A Heart

4 x G1

33

$17,600

Tabkir

Open H/cap

39

$2,750

Taimazov

2 x G1

29

$11,000

Telesto

2 x G1

42

$3,300

Tully Dane

G3

33

$5,500

Umatilla

G1

38

$6,600

Universal Prince

4 x G1

30

$11,000

Urgent Request

1 X G1

25

$3,300

Vitrinite

Listed

60

$3,300

* FOA = Service Fee on application



From this above group of 57 stallions that had had 25 or more starts, no fewer than 30 (52.63%) were Group 1 winners either in Australia or overseas when they went off to stand at stud.


Posted By: Aurelius
Date Posted: 16 Apr 2017 at 8:14am
From this above group of 57 stallions that had had 25 or more starts, no fewer than 30 (52.63%) were Group 1 winners either in Australia or overseas when they went off to stand at stud.



From this group of 57 stallions the vast majority failed, but ones that need statistically checking publicly to avoid answering copious emails are - in alphabetical order:



STALLION

% WINNERS-TO-RUNNERS

% STAKESWINNERS-TO-RUNNERS

Black Hawk

62.47%

1.49%

Blevic

58.42%

4.30%

Canadian Silver

62.74%

0.75%

Danbird

42.1%

0.60%

Danewin

71.98%

8.13%

Dash For Cash

59.91%

1.69%

Elvstroem

48.10%

2.06%

Falbrav

57.17%

2.91%

Falvelon

62.69%

1.77%

Fantastic Light

55.98%

3.40%

Filante

53.87%

1.71%

Jeune

70.77%

4.92%

Lonhro

70.24%

7.85%

Nothin’ Leica Dane

56.85%

1.99%

Octagonal

62.28%

3.07%

Sequalo

67.67%

1.93%

Show A Heart

61.70%

3.37%

Universal Prince

44.05%

0.00%



So from those 57 stallions that had 25 or more racetrack starts only two – Danewin and Lonhro – or 3.50% of the entire group, were later proven to be successful at stud, so conversely 96.50% failed at stud, as in they failed to achieve a winners-to-runners ratio of 60% or higher, as well as a stakeswinners-to-runners ratio of 5% or over.



The only four stallions whose names were replicated in both the 1995 list in the original article yesterday and this 2005 list are Canadian Silver, Dieu D’or, Naturalism and Umatilla, meaning that across both articles the statistics of a total of 111 individual stallions that raced 25 times or more were researched and of that 111 only four stallions or 3.60% of the entire group – namely At Talaq, Military Plume, Danewin and Lonhro achieved my “successful sire” statistics. Some 96.40% of the entire group failed at stud, so both broodmare owners and yearling sale buyers need to be aware of the ordinary statistics relating to heavily raced stallions which were randomly picked from being at stud in 1995 and 2005 in Australia.


Posted By: Aurelius
Date Posted: 16 Apr 2017 at 8:16am
Pretty simple formula for a successful Stallion.

60% or better Winners to Runners
5% Stakes Winners to runners.

Which I think is quite fair.


Posted By: Second Chance
Date Posted: 16 Apr 2017 at 8:33am
The reality is that about 90% of potential sires become relative failures, irrespective of how many starts they might have had.


Posted By: furious
Date Posted: 16 Apr 2017 at 8:57am
That's the trouble SC.  Most don't make it at stud.  There is always something to point out why it didn't succeed.  I'd love to know why Helmet and Sepoy seem to be doing much better at stud in Europe!  Nothing is cut and dried - sometimes it's just that the stallion is an ideal cross the the vast majority of mares out there.  In Australia that means Danehill with a Star Kingdom background.  Now if we can find the next great cross we will have an explosion and a breed shaper.  At the moment we are just marking time waiting.  But breedshapers don't just come along every day.

We had plenty of Northern Dancer blood here before Danehill came.  Some very poor indeed despite good race records or pedigrees.  He wasn't even the best to come but he had exactly what was needed.  He crossed well with Bletchingly and Sir Tristram who had been the two best before him so the ground was prepared for him.  But his brother couldn't do it.  It was Danehill's group of gene's (which his brother didn't inherit despite the same sire and dam) which was the prize winner.  Nothing to do with starts.  Just the right combination of genes meeting the right group of mares.


Posted By: Aurelius
Date Posted: 16 Apr 2017 at 9:02am
Probably easier just to follow the links;

https://justracing.com.au/just-racing-archives/2017/2/7/pierro-will-he-become-a-successful-sire-in-his-stud-career" rel="nofollow - https://justracing.com.au/just-racing-archives/2017/2/7/pierro-will-he-become-a-successful-sire-in-his-stud-career

https://justracing.com.au/just-racing-archives/2017/2/7/stallions-that-have-had-25-starts-or-more-are-very-rarely-successful-at-studpart-1" rel="nofollow - https://justracing.com.au/just-racing-archives/2017/2/7/stallions-that-have-had-25-starts-or-more-are-very-rarely-successful-at-studpart-1


https://justracing.com.au/just-racing-archives/2017/2/7/stallions-that-have-had-25-starts-or-more-are-very-rarely-successful-at-studpart-2" rel="nofollow - https://justracing.com.au/just-racing-archives/2017/2/7/stallions-that-have-had-25-starts-or-more-are-very-rarely-successful-at-studpart-2


Posted By: Aurelius
Date Posted: 16 Apr 2017 at 9:05am
Originally posted by furious furious wrote:

That's the trouble SC.  Most don't make it at stud.  There is always something to point out why it didn't succeed.  I'd love to know why Helmet and Sepoy seem to be doing much better at stud in Europe!  Nothing is cut and dried - sometimes it's just that the stallion is an ideal cross the the vast majority of mares out there.  In Australia that means Danehill with a Star Kingdom background.  Now if we can find the next great cross we will have an explosion and a breed shaper.  At the moment we are just marking time waiting.  But breedshapers don't just come along every day.
<div id="UMS_TOOLTIP" style=": ; cursor: pointer; : 2147483647; : transparent; top: -100000px; left: -100000px;">

We had plenty of Northern Dancer blood here before Danehill came.  Some very poor indeed despite good race records or pedigrees.  He wasn't even the best to come but he had exactly what was needed.  He crossed well with Bletchingly and Sir Tristram who had been the two best before him so the ground was prepared for him.  But his brother couldn't do it.  It was Danehill's group of gene's (which his brother didn't inherit despite the same sire and dam) which was the prize winner.  Nothing to do with starts.  Just the right combination of genes meeting the right group of mares.


Of the ones that make it too stud Furious.


Posted By: slowdown
Date Posted: 16 Apr 2017 at 9:08am

you have put a lot of work into this. I wonder what the percentage is overall taking into account the entire entries to the book. too much work I know but it would be interesting....



-------------
Sh'Bourne Star - racingSh'Bourne Dynasty - 2 weeks into next prep .sh'Bourne riverman- 2 months off with hoof bruising sh'bourne rebel - shinny. sh'bourne Attila - spelling after breaking.


Posted By: MichaelM
Date Posted: 16 Apr 2017 at 9:16am
Originally posted by slowdown slowdown wrote:

you have put a lot of work into this. I wonder what the percentage is overall taking into account the entire entries to the book. too much work I know but it would be interesting....



They are quoting research conducted by Phil Purser. Enough said!


Posted By: Mr Prospector
Date Posted: 16 Apr 2017 at 9:22am
Originally posted by Aurelius Aurelius wrote:

Pretty simple formula for a successful Stallion.

60% or better Winners to Runners
5% Stakes Winners to runners.

Which I think is quite fair.


I think that everyone would agree with that stat , it's a really good criteria for a proven successful stallion .
There may be more to the picture than just the number of starts though . These days any stallion with a sexy pedigree who has won a top speed G1 will be retired to the barn early due to the amount of money they can generate at stud . Are sprinting stallions more successsful than staying stallions and in the main which have more starts ?

I haven't looked and you may have the answer , what is the percentage of stallions that have retired to stud over the last 5 years have had 25 or more starts ?


Posted By: Aurelius
Date Posted: 16 Apr 2017 at 9:50am
Originally posted by MichaelM MichaelM wrote:

Originally posted by slowdown slowdown wrote:

you have put a lot of work into this. I wonder what the percentage is overall taking into account the entire entries to the book. too much work I know but it would be interesting....



They are quoting research conducted by Phil Purser. Enough said!


Even worse the data comes from Stallion Book!

All hail George Michael he really knows his stuff!



Posted By: Aurelius
Date Posted: 16 Apr 2017 at 9:54am
Originally posted by Mr Prospector Mr Prospector wrote:

Originally posted by Aurelius Aurelius wrote:

Pretty simple formula for a successful Stallion.

60% or better Winners to Runners
5% Stakes Winners to runners.

Which I think is quite fair.


I think that everyone would agree with that stat , it's a really good criteria for a proven successful stallion .
There may be more to the picture than just the number of starts though . These days any stallion with a sexy pedigree who has won a top speed G1 will be retired to the barn early due to the amount of money they can generate at stud . Are sprinting stallions more successsful than staying stallions and in the main which have more starts ?

I haven't looked and you may have the answer , what is the percentage of stallions that have retired to stud over the last 5 years have had 25 or more starts ?


*hit P I struggled to come up with that copy and paste.

I think the Governer James may be able to pull that stat quite easily!


Posted By: kavg
Date Posted: 16 Apr 2017 at 10:44am
Looking at the list of stallions from 2005 I would have thought from their performances and type that the most likely to be successful would have been Octagonal, Lonhro then maybe Elvstroem, Danewin and then perhaps Falvelon. That is how I would have thought at the time. ( i have since changed my appraisal of whether a sire will be successful or not). The others would have been line ball or I would have thought they'd struggle anyway. I'm not guessing on the quality of the overseas stallions.

I don't think these sires would have been any better or worse if the had a handful of starts but we are all guessing. 

Out of interest, what overall percentage of stallions reach the 60% w to r and 5% sw to r?

That may be a better way off looking at it.


-------------


Posted By: bradjm
Date Posted: 16 Apr 2017 at 10:52am
I'd hardly call a stallion who doesn't get 5% stakes winners a flop

You have to factor that in relative to service fee.

Very few of those stallions listed would have stood for a large fee in their first few seasons, and most because they weren't sprinting types retired, the type of stallion usually shunned.




Posted By: furious
Date Posted: 16 Apr 2017 at 11:35am
Ok there is another way to look at this.  If you point blank don't go to stallions with above 25 starts you are missing out on perhaps improving the breed!

Now Champion Stallions can come and go.  Some lines breed on and others disappear.  Some live on through the dam side and others just seem to disappear from pedigrees.  No doubt about it the ones that continue on are not always the champion of their day but sometimes they have something essential for the breed.

Do you remember horses like the ones I list below.  They not only had a Championship win or two or three or up to seven.  They can still be found in pedigrees today - some pretty far back - but without them the breed would be different.

Polymelus - 31 starts and 5 times a Champion Sire - sire of Phalaris sire of Pharos sire of Nearco etc etc

Pharos - 30 starts and Champion in both France and England - as above

Nearctic - 47 starts and 7 times a Champion Sire - sire of Northern Dancer etc etc etc

Nashua - 30 starts - he appears in both Roberto and Mr Prospector lines of which there are many

Matrice - 43 starts and the start of the Australia Breed Champion sire - he sired Pago Pago who went out into the world - so generations past we find Dancing Brave, Oasis Dream, Dubawi, Makfi, Power etc

Noholme - 41 starts and a Champion Juvenile Sire in the USA - sired a Champion Sire in Nodouble while Savabeel is one Champion sire of today with his influence

Halo - 31 starts and 2 times Champion Sire - sire of Sunday Silence need I say more

Sundridge - 35 starts and Champion Sire - sire of Sunstar who Star Kingdom was inbred to

Round Table - 66 starts and Champion Sire - well we have Sir Tristram blood doing a good job representing him

Princequillo - 33 starts - likewise Zabeel, Sir Tristram and Savabeel

Heroic - 51 starts and 7 times Champion Sire - Luskin Star, Pago Pago, Dancing Brave etc etc

Tom Fool - 30 starts and 4 times Champion Sire - sire of Silly Season who's son Lunchtime is still going strong in Australian pedigrees

There are others as well.  I think you will find a colt is less likely to race on than a gelding of filly.  Probably after five or six undefeated starts it just is too hard to race on and maybe be beaten.  But you will find many with few starts don't make it at stud.


Posted By: kavg
Date Posted: 16 Apr 2017 at 12:37pm
Originally posted by furious furious wrote:

Ok there is another way to look at this.  If you point blank don't go to stallions with above 25 starts you are missing out on perhaps improving the breed!

Agree Furious,

I'm sure I'm not the only one who believes that when colts are retired early, particularly as early 3yo's it is mostly because they were early maturers and performed at top level as 2yo's and early 3yo. The trainers, owners, studs know that the rest have caught up. So to keep the appearance of superiority they either invent an injury or blow a small injury into a large injury and rush them off to stud. I could list many examples of this.

Now some have genuine injuries and need to be retired. And some of these early retirees may be good for the breed whether a forced or an exaggerated retirement but I like to think that soundness, toughness and maturity need to be a deciding factor in going to a stallion, otherwise the breed suffers all over the world. The Poms and yanks tend to do the same thing as us. 


-------------


Posted By: Sir Gov
Date Posted: 16 Apr 2017 at 1:34pm
Stallion stats also are hugely influenced by their mare book. 

We often hear the term upgrade - & I am Invincible is a classic example.  Now with the good mares, will he get better?  Time will telll!

When stallions become successful & all the well 'bred' mares go to them, a large number are unraced/non city winners but have a great page - There is a good reason often why they are unraced!

Give me a stallion who has had many lightly raced, winning mares in their 1st year & the numbers look better on avg (ie. Iam Inv)


Posted By: MichaelM
Date Posted: 16 Apr 2017 at 2:35pm
Originally posted by Aurelius Aurelius wrote:

Originally posted by MichaelM MichaelM wrote:

Originally posted by slowdown slowdown wrote:

you have put a lot of work into this. I wonder what the percentage is overall taking into account the entire entries to the book. too much work I know but it would be interesting....



They are quoting research conducted by Phil Purser. Enough said!


Even worse the data comes from Stallion Book!

All hail George Michael he really knows his stuff!



You're a peculiar one. All I asked was if you truly believed a stallion's genetics were influenced by if they had a hard racing career or not?

I assume you referring to me as George Michael is an attempt at name calling?


Posted By: Second Chance
Date Posted: 16 Apr 2017 at 3:00pm
Current stallions in Stallions 2016.Looked at all those who've been a stud long enough to establish their credentials.

The following sires raced for three more seasons and/or raced on quite a few occasions, and have proven successful at stud:

Artie Schiller, Choisir, Equiano, I Am Invincible, Lonhro, Love Conquers All, Medaglia D'Oro, Show A Heart, So You Think, Starcraft, Star Spangled Banner, Testa Rossa.



Posted By: early4lunch
Date Posted: 16 Apr 2017 at 3:13pm
I am not sure of his  class, plenty of ordinary performances at the top level  . Nice horse , solid pedigree and Widden do have a good record of finding a good stallion . $11k is plenty .


Posted By: Sir Gov
Date Posted: 16 Apr 2017 at 3:40pm
Redoute's Choice - set up a great model.

10 starts - lightly raced, retired not long after the Orr


Posted By: Second Chance
Date Posted: 16 Apr 2017 at 3:55pm
Let's look at the $ equation.

A colt that wins $2m at two or three might go on to win another $1-2m as a 4yo.  That's a total of $3-4m. 

Then again, if he goes to stud at four instead he might generate $4-5m in stud fees that first season, making a total of $6-7m over the same period.

So why would you race on at 4 and risk damaging its value?




Posted By: furious
Date Posted: 16 Apr 2017 at 4:00pm
Well it certainly making pleanty of mares worth their weight in gold.  Look you can get colts who never raced be champion sires and obviously lots in that 10 to 20 mark.  But don't mark off the others.  They may or may not make the grade but if they have something to offer your mare please look at them.


Posted By: Sir Gov
Date Posted: 16 Apr 2017 at 4:12pm
Originally posted by Second Chance Second Chance wrote:

Let's look at the $ equation.

A colt that wins $2m at two or three might go on to win another $1-2m as a 4yo.  That's a total of $3-4m. 

Then again, if he goes to stud at four instead he might generate $4-5m in stud fees that first season, making a total of $6-7m over the same period.

So why would you race on at 4 and risk damaging its value?



You just wouldnt race on - if its totally about $


Posted By: Aurelius
Date Posted: 16 Apr 2017 at 4:15pm
Originally posted by MichaelM MichaelM wrote:

Originally posted by Aurelius Aurelius wrote:

Originally posted by MichaelM MichaelM wrote:

Originally posted by slowdown slowdown wrote:

you have put a lot of work into this. I wonder what the percentage is overall taking into account the entire entries to the book. too much work I know but it would be interesting....



They are quoting research conducted by Phil Purser. Enough said!


Even worse the data comes from Stallion Book!

All hail George Michael he really knows his stuff!



You're a peculiar one. All I asked was if you truly believed a stallion's genetics were influenced by if they had a hard racing career or not?

I assume you referring to me as George Michael is an attempt at name calling?


Give it a break Djebel if only you put as much effort into a subject as you do trawling.

Pay attention there have been some useful points made.


Posted By: Aurelius
Date Posted: 16 Apr 2017 at 4:23pm
Originally posted by Second Chance Second Chance wrote:

Current stallions in Stallions 2016.Looked at all those who've been a stud long enough to establish their credentials.

The following sires raced for three more seasons and/or raced on quite a few occasions, and have proven successful at stud:

Artie Schiller, Choisir, Equiano, I Am Invincible, Lonhro, Love Conquers All, Medaglia D'Oro, Show A Heart, So You Think, Starcraft, Star Spangled Banner, Testa Rossa.



Artie Schiller 22 starts.
Choisor        23 start.
I am Invincible 13 starts.

Not like you to miss the point SC only checked 3



Posted By: Second Chance
Date Posted: 16 Apr 2017 at 4:41pm
Please re-read my post, ie raced for 3 seasons or more and/or relatively often.

Artie Schiller raced 22 times over 4 seasons.
Choisir raced 23 times over 3 seasons - now that's an ask.
I Am Invincible might have only raced 13 times, but did so over 4 seasons. 

But keep going through the list if you feel it'll serve a purpose.  Wink
   


Posted By: MichaelM
Date Posted: 16 Apr 2017 at 4:54pm
Originally posted by Aurelius Aurelius wrote:

Originally posted by MichaelM MichaelM wrote:

Originally posted by Aurelius Aurelius wrote:

Originally posted by MichaelM MichaelM wrote:

Originally posted by slowdown slowdown wrote:

you have put a lot of work into this. I wonder what the percentage is overall taking into account the entire entries to the book. too much work I know but it would be interesting....



They are quoting research conducted by Phil Purser. Enough said!


Even worse the data comes from Stallion Book!

All hail George Michael he really knows his stuff!



You're a peculiar one. All I asked was if you truly believed a stallion's genetics were influenced by if they had a hard racing career or not?

I assume you referring to me as George Michael is an attempt at name calling?


Give it a break Djebel if only you put as much effort into a subject as you do trawling.

Pay attention there have been some useful points made.


You've made plenty of points I will give you that. None whatsoever address my question about hard racing careers affecting ones genetics and their ability to pass these on. You do get butthurt quite easily though I'll give you that.


Posted By: Aurelius
Date Posted: 16 Apr 2017 at 5:08pm
Your question has been answered.


Posted By: MichaelM
Date Posted: 16 Apr 2017 at 5:20pm
Originally posted by Aurelius Aurelius wrote:

Your question has been answered.


No it hasn't, all you did was list stallions who had had 25 starts or more at stud and what their stats were. Not even close to answering the question. Now list all the stallions who have had less than 25 starts or less and failed at stud are and we'll be here for weeks. The best points have been made by those not including you.


Posted By: Aurelius
Date Posted: 16 Apr 2017 at 7:28pm
No matter how obtuse you want to be Michael nothing will change the facts.

Sure come up with different criteria however at the moment I am assessing a stallion that has had 37 starts and I have always said through the thread he may succeed however 'the odds are against'.

Keep chasing your tale buddy.






Posted By: Cityboy
Date Posted: 16 Apr 2017 at 8:38pm
Aurealis - thanks for providing your statistics which I didn't think you'd have. They are interesting but I think inconclusive for the reason noted by some of the others above (ie: what are the "success stats" for the stallions who had less than 25 starts?). I doubt they'd be much different to 3.5% success rate you've calculated for the stallions that have had more than 25 starts?


Posted By: slowdown
Date Posted: 16 Apr 2017 at 8:52pm
Wont have to worry soon with the trend to retire them early. I just went through the entire 2015 stallions book. don't reckon there was 15 who had run more than 25 and a number who had are lesser known stallions who have been in the book a while without any real success meaning that they were little know and had very little chance of getting decent mares.

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Sh'Bourne Star - racingSh'Bourne Dynasty - 2 weeks into next prep .sh'Bourne riverman- 2 months off with hoof bruising sh'bourne rebel - shinny. sh'bourne Attila - spelling after breaking.


Posted By: Sir Gov
Date Posted: 16 Apr 2017 at 9:23pm
Originally posted by slowdown slowdown wrote:

Wont have to worry soon with the trend to retire them early. I just went through the entire 2015 stallions book. don't reckon there was 15 who had run more than 25 and a number who had are lesser known stallions who have been in the book a while without any real success meaning that they were little know and had very little chance of getting decent mares.

Have a 2YO colt trialling in a few weeks.  

If successful, may just retire him off the trial & ship him off to stud.


Posted By: slowdown
Date Posted: 16 Apr 2017 at 9:31pm
starting fee $55,000?

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Sh'Bourne Star - racingSh'Bourne Dynasty - 2 weeks into next prep .sh'Bourne riverman- 2 months off with hoof bruising sh'bourne rebel - shinny. sh'bourne Attila - spelling after breaking.


Posted By: Aurelius
Date Posted: 17 Apr 2017 at 7:42am
Originally posted by Sir Gov Sir Gov wrote:

Originally posted by slowdown slowdown wrote:


Wont have to worry soon with the trend to retire them early. I just went through the entire 2015 stallions book. don't reckon there was 15 who had run more than 25 and a number who had are lesser known stallions who have been in the book a while without any real success meaning that they were little know and had very little chance of getting decent mares.


Have a 2YO colt trialling in a few weeks.  

If successful, may just retire him off the trial & ship him off to stud.


By whom out of whom Gov?


Posted By: Sir Gov
Date Posted: 17 Apr 2017 at 7:54am
Originally posted by Aurelius Aurelius wrote:

Originally posted by Sir Gov Sir Gov wrote:

Originally posted by slowdown slowdown wrote:


Wont have to worry soon with the trend to retire them early. I just went through the entire 2015 stallions book. don't reckon there was 15 who had run more than 25 and a number who had are lesser known stallions who have been in the book a while without any real success meaning that they were little know and had very little chance of getting decent mares.


Have a 2YO colt trialling in a few weeks.  

If successful, may just retire him off the trial & ship him off to stud.


By whom out of whom Gov?

GOLDEN DEAL with Kris Lees.

Dam won 3 from 4 as a 2YO (2 in town) & then had issues.

Particularly apt topic - I bought him as dam was very good & he is by a massively underrated sire (RIP)  - California Dane.  

70% Winnners to Runners
5% Stakeswinners to Runners

Ran a top 15% of times in the breeze ups & xrays etc. all good. No syndicators on him as he is not 'fashionably' bred.  

Showing a lot to date!


Posted By: Aurelius
Date Posted: 17 Apr 2017 at 8:11am
Nice!

Hope he is another winner for your stud. Even though a little ways back I like Vain and the bottom of his pedigree and Final Card closer up.

Should have some early tow.


Posted By: Sir Gov
Date Posted: 17 Apr 2017 at 8:28am
Originally posted by Aurelius Aurelius wrote:

Nice!

Hope he is another winner for your stud. Even though a little ways back I like Vain and the bottom of his pedigree and Final Card closer up.

Should have some early tow.

He has a lot of speed.  

And he is still a colt so that makes him a stallion prospect (ha ha).  He has also had less than 25 starts ;) 


Posted By: Julie Bee
Date Posted: 17 Apr 2017 at 9:59pm
Good luck with him Sir Gov!
It is the unfashionable ones that end up being the surprise packages.


Posted By: Julie Bee
Date Posted: 17 Apr 2017 at 10:06pm
But going back to the topic, I tend to be believe that Stratum Star could do well at stud.
And until his foals are on the ground and going through the ring he will be just like every other hopeful stallion starting out in 2017.
I'll give him the benefit of the doubt.


Posted By: slowdown
Date Posted: 19 Apr 2017 at 9:04pm
Originally posted by Aurelius Aurelius wrote:

Pretty simple formula for a successful Stallion.

60% or better Winners to Runners
5% Stakes Winners to runners.

Which I think is quite fair.
Aurelius I am very interested in statistics when it comes to breeding and racing. I decided to go over the 2012 stallions book. 232 entered with 35 of those racing 25 or more races. of those 35 without looking too hard blevic, testa rossa and lonhro all passed the test. this then making it 8.5 % of the runners with 25 runs or more. not sure if I have missed something as I have been up since 3 am but it appears that those statistics can vary significantly. Cheers Slowdown

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Sh'Bourne Star - racingSh'Bourne Dynasty - 2 weeks into next prep .sh'Bourne riverman- 2 months off with hoof bruising sh'bourne rebel - shinny. sh'bourne Attila - spelling after breaking.


Posted By: robbo
Date Posted: 11 Jul 2018 at 1:50pm
A year or more down the track, what do people think of this bloke? I am looking at him for the upcoming season. Seemed to get a reasonable book of 116 mares, sound, durable and appeals to those that like colonial families. My mare needs some scope and leg from her suitors.

My nagging doubts are whether he lacked the brilliance to make a stallion and whether his pedigree is a little light. I am wondering where he is placed commercially - clearly he is at the right stud to attract support in the sale-ring.


Posted By: furious
Date Posted: 11 Jul 2018 at 2:32pm
Hi Robbo I don't think the pedigree is light on.  His two year old form was - he definately got better with age.  His sire was the winner of the Golden Slipper and Champion First season sire with a Golden Slipper winner and perhaps afterwards overlooked because Sebring a much better performed (and not from the Danehill sireline) Golden Slipper winner turned up at the same stud.

His grandsire Pins was an excellent sire from the Lunchtime sireline from a fine classic female line.  Next dam is a daughter of O'Reilly who also was a brilliant racehorse and sire.  While his 4th dam is the mighty Emancipation.

I can't say he will make a sire but the pedigree offers Redoute's, Luskin Star, Vain, Canny Lad, Bletchingly, Biscay, Pins, Snippets, Kaoru Star, O'Reilly, Courtza, Emancipation etc who were all Australasian bred Champions in one or more fields.

And while he wasn't a winner as a two year old he must of been showing promise and three of the starts where in a G1, G2 and G3 race.  That he grow into that promise and the fact there is so much speed in his pedigree suggest he should get sprinters.  If they are early comers might depend on the female lines used.


Posted By: furious
Date Posted: 11 Jul 2018 at 2:34pm
Likewise there is enough stamina there to suggest he could also sire classic/miler types.


Posted By: Second Chance
Date Posted: 11 Jul 2018 at 2:35pm
Don't know whether he'll make it or not Robbo, however the photos of him suggest he certainly doesn't lack scope or leg.

As for the light pedigree there's a cross of Lunchtime and four crosses of Star Kingdom through Kaoru Star and Bletchingly. Throw in those two Kiwi stalwarts Pins and O'Reilly and there's plenty of male strength there.

You'd have to think he'd struggle just a bit commercially early on however Widden helps at the buying bench.


Posted By: furious
Date Posted: 11 Jul 2018 at 2:40pm
You could add that Spirit of Boom who has come out with a boom had over 50 starts also.  So many colts train off and loose value so they just don't keep them going.  You couldn't find a more honest horse than Lonhro and he has performed admirable.  With Pierro firing it looks like he has kept the Sir Tristram sireline going.  While Spirit of Boom has a far less favourable pedigree to Stratum Star it's good he's come to the fore.  We need to stop the good horses disappearing as three year olds.  Could of seen Merchant Navy again like we are seeing Trapeze Artist (thanks to the Everest).


Posted By: furious
Date Posted: 11 Jul 2018 at 2:42pm
We now have to hope that he comes out and keeps his form or the studs will back off and never try again.


Posted By: Second Chance
Date Posted: 11 Jul 2018 at 2:43pm
Whoops, hadn't seen your first post when I posted mine Furious.  Big smile


Posted By: robbo
Date Posted: 12 Jul 2018 at 1:23pm
Thanks guys - really interesting food for thought. The depth of colonial influence really attracts me to his page. The analogy with Spirit of Boom is interesting and I went back and watched Stratum Star's Blue Diamond Preview run, which actually had some merit.

Lots to think about.



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