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Australia's Whip Rules

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Topic: Australia's Whip Rules
Posted By: 3blindmice
Subject: Australia's Whip Rules
Date Posted: 18 Apr 2016 at 3:06pm
One view. Can't help but agree with him. The administration of the rule has been hit and miss (more miss) with few exceptions. Good to see that it is on the agenda for the national meeting of racing stewards.

Purton praises Hong Kong whip rules after double at Sha Tin

https://plus.google.com/108580056592558306344" rel="nofollow - Darryl Sherer  - 18 Apr 2016

Zac Purton rode a double at Sha Tin on Saturday but said neither would have won had he been riding to the new Australian whip rules.

Zac Purton rode a double at Sha Tin on Saturday. Photo:  http://www.stevehart.com.au/" rel="nofollow - Steve Hart

Purton scored aboard Rouge Et Blanc and Washington Heights by a nose and a neck respectively, each under a strong drive from Purton in the home straight.

Purton told the South China Post he feels encouraged to ride winners in Hong Kong.

"In Australia, I'm doubtful whether either of them would have won under the new rules, I really had to get stuck into both of them and they only just won," Purton said.

"At least I'm lucky enough to be riding in a place where I'm encouraged to ride winners - it doesn't seem to be that way back at home currently."

The only whip rule in Hong Kong is that a horse out of contention is not unduly tested, with Rule 99 (2) making reference to taking "all reasonable and permissible measures ... to ensure a horse is given a full opportunity to win or to obtain the best possible placing."




Replies:
Posted By: djebel
Date Posted: 18 Apr 2016 at 3:15pm
Zac Purton is showing himself to be as dumb as a brick.

If he had been riding under our rules so would his opposition. 

His argument is just pure dumbness in the extreme.




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reductio ad absurdum


Posted By: James
Date Posted: 18 Apr 2016 at 3:21pm
Originally posted by djebel djebel wrote:

Zac Purton is showing himself to be as dumb as a brick.

If he had been riding under our rules so would his opposition. 

His argument is just pure dumbness in the extreme.



The problem arises when one jockey is riding to the rules and another is not. Until they start taking races off those breaking the rules there will be problems but can you ever see that happening when it matters? If a horse loses the cup by a nostril and the winning jockey has flogged it all the way down the straight do you think they would change the result? No chance and that is the biggest problem I have with the rule.


Posted By: djebel
Date Posted: 18 Apr 2016 at 3:26pm
Clearly the Stewards do not believe it makes any difference to the result hence they do not or will uphold a protest. Purton is clearly saying it does make a difference.




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reductio ad absurdum


Posted By: Air Seattle
Date Posted: 18 Apr 2016 at 3:37pm
and in Australia Buena Vista would not have lost the Japan Cup.

Different jurisdictions have different outcomes.  The smart thing is to keep quiet


Posted By: linghi11
Date Posted: 18 Apr 2016 at 3:53pm
Stewards aren't the ones riding and very few of them have ridden competitively so they're hardly equipped to judge. They should have had some phasing in period to give breakers and trainers time to change how they educate young horses - as is it's unfair to older horses and their connections as these horses were educated to be wound up with the whip etc versus the younger horses whose education was most likely lighter in the whip in step with new rules.

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to the victor


Posted By: djebel
Date Posted: 06 Aug 2016 at 12:28pm
Jockey Freddie (Frederik) Tylicki

Freddy Tylicki: banned for four days for his German Derby ride

 PICTURE: John Grossick

Big bans and fines for riders breaking whip rule

 BY DAVID CONOLLY-SMITH AND MARK SCULLY2:21PM 5 AUG 2016 

GERMAN racing has adopted stringent new whip rules that will result in hefty fines and long bans for riders who breach the limit of five strikes a race.

The move follows a fierce debate about use of the whip following the German Derby last month, in which the first- and second-placed riders incurred penalties for striking their mounts nine times.

Freddy Tylicki, who placed second, and winning jockey Dario Vargiu both lost 75 per cent of their prize-money share, while Tylicki was hit with a four-day ban.

As of Sunday, a sixth strike will result in a ban of 14 days and a fine of at least 50 per cent of the riding fee. Seven or more strikes will see those penalties increase, while a second offence will incur a minimum 21-day ban and a third 28.

Andrea Atzeni said on Friday the stringent new whip rules are a concern. The jockey is due to head to Dusseldorf this weekend to ride Parvaneh in the Preis der Diana, or German Oaks. Frankie Dettori and Tylicki are also making the journey.

'It's rubbish'

"It's definitely a worry," said Atzeni. "You're riding in a Group 1 and you only have five smacks.

"Fair enough, punish someone if they go over the limit but to give them two weeks and lose 50 per cent or more, I think it's rubbish really."

Atzeni said he did not believe the rule change would result in jockeys opting against riding in Germany, but said he would play it extra safe on Sunday to ensure he is free to continue riding when he returns to Britain.

"When you get a ride in a Group 1, a big race like the Oaks on Sunday, you have to go and you just have to make sure you don't go over the limit," he said.

"I'd probably rather give my horse four on Sunday, not even five, just to be safe."



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reductio ad absurdum


Posted By: bradjm
Date Posted: 06 Aug 2016 at 12:34pm
I think i'll take an accomplished rider like zacs word for it over the keyboard jockeys.



Posted By: Carioca
Date Posted: 06 Aug 2016 at 12:38pm
Touche.


Posted By: djebel
Date Posted: 06 Aug 2016 at 12:40pm
Originally posted by bradjm bradjm wrote:

I think i'll take an accomplished rider like zacs word for it over the keyboard jockeys.


His explanation was about as dumb as it gets whether you have ridden a horse or not, It was just dumb.




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reductio ad absurdum


Posted By: djebel
Date Posted: 03 Jan 2017 at 8:59pm

OPINION: Steve Moran – Whip ban inevitable

Steve Moran - 02 Jan 2017

In my opinion it's only a matter of time until whips are banned from Australian horse racing so it's time jockeys, trainers and punters began to prepare themselves for the inevitable.

Racing without whips - is it inevitable? Photo:  http://www.stevehart.com.au/" rel="nofollow - Steve Hart

THE SITUATION

I love a punt and I love to see a jockey doing their utmost to win.

I have no torch to carry for the extremists in the animal welfare world. At least until they adjourn and solve the ethical, intellectual and philosophical debate of mankind's treatment of animals.

But I am a realist.

Community attitudes and perceptions change and attitudes toward the use of the whip in horse racing have been changing for quite some time.

So, Racing Australia bites the bullet and bans whip use in Australian horse racing – what changes?

THE PUNTER

You won't bet, you say. Bollocks.

You'll still bet because you, like me, and every other punter thinks we're smarter than the next bloke.

It's the very essence of why we bet in the first place - because we reckon our opinion is more on the money than most others.

We'll stand at the pub or the track for a few weeks, lamenting that so and so would have won with a decent backhander but then, a little further on, we won't even notice it's (the whip) not there.

THE TRENDS

These days, more often than not with most of the top jockeys, I find myself willing them not to draw the whip.

Because I know if they do, they've reached desperation point and the horse and my cash is probably 'gone'.

Look at Damien Oliver or Hugh Bowman arched over the horse's neck, weight forward, pushing down and riding with tremendous hands and heels vigour over the final stages of a race.

Watch Kerrin McEvoy and Joao Moreira over the last 100 metres of this year's Melbourne Cup.

No whip.

It looks great.

There are also some cases where it can be entirely counter-productive.

I suspect that had Katie Mallyon continued to ride Grey Lion hands and heels, rather than try to draw the whip through to her left hand, she'd have won the Geelong Cup.

I'm not having a go at Mallyon who is an extremely competent young rider, it's just a recent example which springs to mind.

THE JOCKEY

Glen Boss wrote in his book The Boss – "I hate bashing horses because they just curl up underneath you anyway. When they are at their top doing their level best, don't hit them….the notion that wielding the whip produces speed is just crazy."

Boss also conceded that a 'tap or two' in the straight might encourage the horse to keep its mind on the job and noted that some horses would respond to strong whip use. "But not many,' he wrote.

Mark Zahra – "A ban would concern me. I think we do need the whip for track work as well in races.

"It's a tool to assist in educating and controlling the horse and the safety argument is real in my opinion.

"I really couldn't imagine not using it. There's plenty of willing young colts who'll just have a lend of you if allowed half a chance."

Mick Dittman – "It's (the whip) not really a good look at the moment, and we need to help the jockeys improve their techniques with regard to getting the best out of horses using other ways," said Dittman back in 2009.

THE TRAINER

Mick Kent – "The jockeys will say it's a safety issue but that's nonsense.

"And in terms of performance, it's all about the jockeys relaying that sense of urgency to the horse.

"The whip may be an aid in conveying that urgency but horses are trained to respond to other triggers, like crossing the reins over."

THE BREAKER

Julien Welsh – "I appreciate some may have a different view but for me, banning the whip would make not one iota of difference.

"I don't use the whip at all in training or breaking. We carry them so that the horses get used to them but we don't use them.

"In my opinion the vast majority of horses give their best without it.

"Look, a ban or no ban, it wouldn't worry me either way. I accept that the whips today don't inflict pain but we have to be mindful of public perception and whether we like it or not, public opinion has an impact on decision making."

A SAFETY TOOL

Is the whip a necessary safety tool?

I am simply not qualified to speak on this as someone who's not ridden in a race.

However, I can say that when I have privately asked jockeys about this matter they have invariably said 'over rated.'

Publicly, they might say something altogether different but I suspect that's because they either don't want to be seen to be breaking ranks or they're simply resisting change which is what people are inclined to do.

If safety is a legitimate issue, then let them carry a whip - in some sort of sheath - which can be drawn in dangerous situations but not as a tool to encourage.

WHAT NOW

The whip debate has raged since 1966 when Wally Hoysted walked onto the Flemington racetrack armed with a double barrelled shotgun and threatened to use it if the jockeys rode with whips in the upcoming race.

It's meandered along ever since and the tough decision has been avoided despite various reports advocating a ban, including a 1991 Senate Select Committee report which concluded "the Committee would like to see the use of whips as a means of making a horse run faster eliminated from horse racing".

Various changes to the whip rules since 2009 are simply unworkable and will continue to be so despite the changes which will allow stewards some discretion.

As of January 1, stewards are able to take into consideration the circumstances of a race, such as the distance and whether a jockey was using the whip to encourage the horse to improve its position.

Counting strikes, good heavens!

If a ban were imposed, we'd need to respond rationally.

Would the odd race result be affected?

Probably yes, but in line with Boss's thinking, probably not many.

A few owners and trainers might complain that a certain horse can't be competitive without the whip.

To which I'd respond, that's just another vagary of racing.

Your horse is not competitive when he's caught inside horses or when the tracks are too firm or too soft.

Perhaps methods of training and educating young horses will gradually change but even then I doubt it would have to be radical, especially in light of Julien Welsh's comments.

Horses have to get a barrier certificate as it is.

The rogues won't and don't pass.

CONCLUSION

I suspect we have now reached the stage where the safety of the rider is the only genuinely, critical issue.

If jockeys cannot absolutely convince the authorities, and perhaps the public, that this is the case then a blanket whip ban is inevitable.

Australian racing without whips – now there's something for all participants to consider as we dive into the new year.

* Steve Moran has covered racing in Australia and around the world for more than 30 years - working for Best Bets, TVN, radio RSN and a variety of newspapers



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reductio ad absurdum


Posted By: Majestic
Date Posted: 04 Jan 2017 at 10:01am
If we can agree that a whip ban is inevitable, where to start? iMO an ammediate blanket ban could bring difficulties with it. Old horses used to the enforcer could "dog" it. My suggestion is from August 1 2017, 2yo racing is to be whipless and those horses will progress to their 3yo career whipless. Also from August 1 2017, all maiden races and restricted races (Class 1-3) could be declared whipless.
Total whip ban from August 1 2018. This should give the RACING industry enough time to swallow this "bitter" pill. Just imagine racing stewards visiting stables unannounced looking for illegal "assessories". What about spurs and some of those lovely bits that are used on the horses?
BUT, what about pony club, eventing, dressage, droving 🤔😱😳😖, etc etc.?.
The next couple of years will be interesting.



Posted By: Speediskey
Date Posted: 04 Jan 2017 at 10:20am
Can't happen till the world goes whipless, if you couldn't whip the horse here but you can overseas would never get horses coming here to race.


Posted By: robbo
Date Posted: 04 Jan 2017 at 10:22am
I have been thinking along the same lines Majestic - if the ban comes in it will need to be phased in over sufficient time not to prejudice horses (and their owners/trainers) that have been taught to respond to the whip as a trigger. I thought that the necessary lead time would be one that changed the way horses were broken in, although the comments from the Steve Moran article above are interesting. And I would suggest a longer phase in period than one year.

An interesting corollary from the whip ban may be that it levels the playing field, or indeed the playing field of perception, between male and female jockeys. The old chestnut that male jockeys are stronger than their female counterparts in a tight finish may lose relevance, while the belief in some quarters that some horses travel better for female riders may gain traction.


Posted By: James
Date Posted: 04 Jan 2017 at 10:29am
It's going to happen. Just a matter of when.


Posted By: furious
Date Posted: 04 Jan 2017 at 10:41am
Jockeys are about the fittest sportspeople out there.  They come back to scale breathless on many occasions after pushing their rides to the line.  So without the whips they will truely be spent.  They are asking a 400 - 500 - 600 horse to give their all - and most of them are only around the 54 mark.

Now will the breed have to change if we go whipless.  

One of my daughters had a modern age teacher one year who let the children progress at their own rate.  My daughter being of a retiring nature didn't push herself too hard - in fact probably learnt nothing and spent the rest of her life trying to catch up!

So the horses needing a strong ride and encouragement to win - or even be competitave - will certainly no longer earn anything for his sire or owners.  He'll gallop along happily in the pack but never exercise anything more in a race.

So racing will change, breeding will have to change also.

It won't change the ability of Champions like Black Caviar who wanted to win at all costs.  The times may go down abit if they don't have anything trying to beat them thought.  But what about the Octagonals of the world who only just made it with heavy riding to the line.  Will they loose that head which is the difference between them winning and loosing.


Posted By: James
Date Posted: 04 Jan 2017 at 10:51am
Originally posted by furious furious wrote:

Jockeys are about the fittest sportspeople out there.  They come back to scale breathless on many occasions after pushing their rides to the line.  So without the whips they will truely be spent.  They are asking a 400 - 500 - 600 horse to give their all - and most of them are only around the 54 mark.

Now will the breed have to change if we go whipless.  

One of my daughters had a modern age teacher one year who let the children progress at their own rate.  My daughter being of a retiring nature didn't push herself too hard - in fact probably learnt nothing and spent the rest of her life trying to catch up!

So the horses needing a strong ride and encouragement to win - or even be competitave - will certainly no longer earn anything for his sire or owners.  He'll gallop along happily in the pack but never exercise anything more in a race.

So racing will change, breeding will have to change also.

It won't change the ability of Champions like Black Caviar who wanted to win at all costs.  The times may go down abit if they don't have anything trying to beat them thought.  But what about the Octagonals of the world who only just made it with heavy riding to the line.  Will they loose that head which is the difference between them winning and loosing.

If they don't win you will just have another champion that can win under the new rules. I know what you are saying but it is going to happen and trainers and jockeys will adjust or they will not. Some will fall by the wayside and others will excel.


Posted By: Lordy
Date Posted: 04 Jan 2017 at 12:34pm
Originally posted by Majestic Majestic wrote:

If we can agree that a whip ban is inevitable, where to start? iMO an ammediate blanket ban could bring difficulties with it. Old horses used to the enforcer could "dog" it. My suggestion is from August 1 2017, 2yo racing is to be whipless and those horses will progress to their 3yo career whipless. Also from August 1 2017, all maiden races and restricted races (Class 1-3) could be declared whipless.
Total whip ban from August 1 2018. This should give the RACING industry enough time to swallow this "bitter" pill. Just imagine racing stewards visiting stables unannounced looking for illegal "assessories". What about spurs and some of those lovely bits that are used on the horses?
BUT, what about pony club, eventing, dressage, droving 🤔😱😳😖, etc etc.?.
The next couple of years will be interesting.

Animal activists don't bother with those. No money in it.


Posted By: marble
Date Posted: 04 Jan 2017 at 12:44pm
I see it as a positive for the industry but the animal rights campaigners will shift their focus to death rates, retirement and rehoming issues. The industry needs continual improvement in these areas.


Posted By: RED HUNTER
Date Posted: 04 Jan 2017 at 2:17pm
Looking for an unrelated story about ANDREW BANKS and found this SHOCKER...NOV 2015

quote

A jockey at Rosehill was found to have struck a horse 40 times during the course of a race on the same day state-based riding groups met with hoops around the country to rail against a new rule that will tighten whip laws.

Andrew Banks was fined $300 for excessive use of the whip on Mandalong Kiss in the eighth event at Rosehill, which came just an hour before riders at Rosehill held a conference about the impending whip changes.



Posted By: James
Date Posted: 04 Jan 2017 at 4:59pm
Racing Australia have just announced they are leaving the whip rule as is for the next 12 months.


Posted By: djebel
Date Posted: 04 Jan 2017 at 5:36pm
Originally posted by Majestic Majestic wrote:


If we can agree that a whip ban is inevitable, where to start? iMO an ammediate blanket ban could bring difficulties with it. Old horses used to the enforcer could "dog" it. My suggestion is from August 1 2017, 2yo racing is to be whipless and those horses will progress to their 3yo career whipless. Also from August 1 2017, all maiden races and restricted races (Class 1-3) could be declared whipless.


One problem with this would be when these 2yos take on their elders and or when these 2yos turn 3 and start taking on their elders who are still racing with the persuader in use.








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reductio ad absurdum


Posted By: oneonesit
Date Posted: 04 Jan 2017 at 5:55pm
Just ban the bloody thing .... just like those trendsetting harness participants have ! Talk about having to be dragged through the mud screaming....deary me !

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Refer ALP Election Promises


Posted By: djebel
Date Posted: 16 Jan 2017 at 5:31pm

OPINION : Steve Moran - The Whip Debate - Global Reaction

Steve Moran - 16 Jan 2017

Having considered the Racenet responses and after speaking to trainers from around the world, I am now inclined to think that changes to the whip rules rather than a ban is inevitable, at least in the short term.

How many is too many? Steve Moran follows up on his controversial article which suggested a whip ban was inevitable.

The response to last week's hypothesis that a whip ban is inevitable was extraordinary from both our readers and from industry participants around the globe.

It's clear that this issue evokes very strong responses from both sides of the fence and is certainly not restricted to this county.

One of the most prominent trainers in the world supports banning the whip whilst others agree it's a necessary tool.

Their views, and those of other locals, are well worth considering.

MIKE DE KOCK

Champion South African trainer and the man who put the Dubai World Cup carnival on the international map.

"I am in the camp of banning the whip.

"It will bring back good old fashion horsemanship. I cringe watching finishes in South Africa sometimes as a head on view will show you exactly what Glen Boss meant (in last week's article).

"What about starting with a ban on using the whip behind the saddle?

"Only allow a tap down the shoulder.

"I firmly believe many punters would be more comfortable with horses not been beaten up just to satisfy them that the jockey 'tried'."

KARL BURKE

Trainer of this year's Royal Ascot Group I Commonwealth Cup winner Quiet Reflection.

"The whip issue has been going on over here for years and there is no doubt that the anti-whip brigade is powerful and not to be underestimated.

I think the BHA have done well with the new rules they have brought in and while there was a lot of controversy in the press a few years ago that has very much died down.

"We have a 7 strikes limit, but it is rare now that jockeys exceed this and when they do the bans are severe.

"My opinion is that while I think there is a place for the whip in racing and the schooling of horses, I totally agree that it was over-used and abused by some and that in the media friendly world we live in, we have to be accountable for our actions, both personally and as a racing industry.

"I think the comments made by your jockeys were on the ball when they said that horses don't quicken for the stick, but at the same time it will help keep them going

and the whip used correctly is a good training tool.

"A big problem that you have is jockeys style in a finish, and a change from the windmill action is a must.

"That will all take time and should be implemented in your apprentice schools, so that the next generation are brought into racing with a different mindset."

MARK JOHNSTON

Long been one of Britain's leading trainers and also a licensed veterinarian based in Yorkshire in northern England.

"Yes, it could happen (whip ban) in the UK. We have exactly the same issues.

"I have written about the whip many times but try to avoid doing so. I don't like to be the one that raises the issue as every time we get into discussions on it the wedge is driven a little further in.

"I do have strong opinions on the subject and I try to go into detail on the physiology involved and approach the subject from, as near as possible, a scientific basis.

"Unfortunately, my views are invariably swamped by those of the uninformed majority and, sadly, our administrators are, to date, putting public perception of horse welfare well ahead of horse welfare itself.

"I note in your piece (last week) that you start by trying to consider how a whip ban will affect the punter, the jockeys and the trainers but you don't really consider how it will affect the horses.

"I take it you are assuming that the horses will be better off but I don't agree that that is the case.

"As a trainer, I wouldn't be affected in that we would all still be competing under the same rules and conditions.

"I wouldn't win any more or any less races but I am still very strongly in favour of the retention of the whip as I believe it to be an essential tool for the proper riding and handling of a horse, especially a racehorse at full gallop.

"As Luca Cumani says, 'a jockey without a whip is like a plumber without a spanner'.

"I think it is essential instrument for the safety and welfare of the horse but not in the sense that most consider it. It is not something 'to be drawn in a dangerous situation'. The reins are for steering.

"The whip cannot make the horse go any faster than it is inherently capable of. It just makes it pull out its best when it matters.

"I have often likened the use of the whip by a jockey to the second in the corner with his boxer before the last round giving his man a slap on the cheek and saying 'come on, wake up, keep your chin in and look after yourself'.

"I would hate to see my horses racing without it."

PAT CAREY

Victorian Group I-winning trainer.

"If we are staring down the barrel of a ban then I believe modification is absolutely 100 percent necessary.

"It may well bring out better qualities in our riders.

"I don't think I've ever seen the best horse lose a race through the lack of use of the whip.

"We need to be balanced and measured in our handling of this issue.''

ROBBIE GRIFFITHS

Group I-winning trainer, former jockey and president Victorian branch of the Australia Trainers Association.

"I'm comfortable with our whip rules as they stand, especially after the recent changes. The key point, often overlooked, is that a horse who is feeling pain will run slower not faster so therefore much of the public perception is simply wrong.

"The whip will encourage, remind or stimulate. The new padded whip is very soft. It's there to make the horse concentrate, not to inflict pain. Horses are not punished as they might have been many years ago.

"Taking it away would be fraught with danger from an OH&S point of view as jockeys are entitled to as safe a workplace as possible. I think it's reasonable to think they need one to perhaps stop a horse darting left or right or whipping right around."

POSSIBLE SOLUTION

The whip may be carried - to be used forward of the saddle, slap down the shoulder with both hands on reins - or waved at the horse forward with the hand coming off the rein, but never used behind the saddle.

STEP ONE

Announce, commencing 1 Aug 2017, that whips are allowed to be carried but not used behind the saddle in all two-year-old races in Australia.

Jockeys are permitted to carry whips for control and education but not to be used behind the saddle.

If a breach of this occurs, horse is or may be disqualified. Onus squarely with riders.

This may promote numerous positives.

Most two-year-olds, if not all, run on a mix of fear, adrenalin and natural running ability.

The use of a whip to make them go faster is almost totally irrelevant.

Thus banning whip use on juveniles is a great start to change perceptions.

Jockeys will also re-learn how to ride hands and heels, maybe even drop their irons to facilitate this and even increase their own safety by not using the toe in the iron (dependent on the whip as you can't kick), modern riding style.

Another plus is educating our young horses to "find the line" free of pain and a bad experience.

We may see even see less of the stallion farm driven emphasis placed on two-year-old racing which may, in turn, have fewer high class horses rushed to stud and thus potentially reinvigorate the racing competition among our older horses (which is also being diminished by the sale of promising horses to Asia).

STEP TWO

Announce, commencing 1 Aug 2018, that all two-year-old and three-year-old racing will adopt this rule. So all the two-year-olds of the previous season are now three continue on with the whip ban and maintain the ban on new season two-year-olds.

STEP THREE

Announce, commencing 1 Aug 2019, a ban on the whip being used (it may be carried), in all races in Australia.

By this stage, horses, jockeys, punters and everyone else will be educated and conditioned to the non-usage of the whip behind the saddle.

Riders will be better riders, horses will be better educated.

Racegoers, punters and the casual observer will have by then become au fait with a new style of going to the line.

No counting of strikes, no more fines, no more negativity.

OUTCOME

Racing has controlled its future, established a new era for the benefit of the animal, and we can all settle down with a cup of tea and marvel at how this "problem" became solved.



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reductio ad absurdum


Posted By: Sneck
Date Posted: 16 Jan 2017 at 5:36pm
Originally posted by djebel djebel wrote:

Zac Purton is showing himself to be as dumb as a brick.

If he had been riding under our rules so would his opposition. 

His argument is just pure dumbness in the extreme.


You're totally wrong about this.

The lack of adequate whip use has cost so many horses a win I've lost count.


Posted By: Sneck
Date Posted: 16 Jan 2017 at 5:39pm
Originally posted by djebel djebel wrote:

OPINION : Steve Moran - The Whip Debate - Global Reaction

Steve Moran - 16 Jan 2017

Having considered the Racenet responses and after speaking to trainers from around the world, I am now inclined to think that changes to the whip rules rather than a ban is inevitable, at least in the short term.

How many is too many? Steve Moran follows up on his controversial article which suggested a whip ban was inevitable.

The response to last week's hypothesis that a whip ban is inevitable was extraordinary from both our readers and from industry participants around the globe.

It's clear that this issue evokes very strong responses from both sides of the fence and is certainly not restricted to this county.

One of the most prominent trainers in the world supports banning the whip whilst others agree it's a necessary tool.

Their views, and those of other locals, are well worth considering.

MIKE DE KOCK

Champion South African trainer and the man who put the Dubai World Cup carnival on the international map.

"I am in the camp of banning the whip.

"It will bring back good old fashion horsemanship. I cringe watching finishes in South Africa sometimes as a head on view will show you exactly what Glen Boss meant (in last week's article).

"What about starting with a ban on using the whip behind the saddle?

"Only allow a tap down the shoulder.

"I firmly believe many punters would be more comfortable with horses not been beaten up just to satisfy them that the jockey 'tried'."

KARL BURKE

Trainer of this year's Royal Ascot Group I Commonwealth Cup winner Quiet Reflection.

"The whip issue has been going on over here for years and there is no doubt that the anti-whip brigade is powerful and not to be underestimated.

I think the BHA have done well with the new rules they have brought in and while there was a lot of controversy in the press a few years ago that has very much died down.

"We have a 7 strikes limit, but it is rare now that jockeys exceed this and when they do the bans are severe.

"My opinion is that while I think there is a place for the whip in racing and the schooling of horses, I totally agree that it was over-used and abused by some and that in the media friendly world we live in, we have to be accountable for our actions, both personally and as a racing industry.

"I think the comments made by your jockeys were on the ball when they said that horses don't quicken for the stick, but at the same time it will help keep them going

and the whip used correctly is a good training tool.

"A big problem that you have is jockeys style in a finish, and a change from the windmill action is a must.

"That will all take time and should be implemented in your apprentice schools, so that the next generation are brought into racing with a different mindset."

MARK JOHNSTON

Long been one of Britain's leading trainers and also a licensed veterinarian based in Yorkshire in northern England.

"Yes, it could happen (whip ban) in the UK. We have exactly the same issues.

"I have written about the whip many times but try to avoid doing so. I don't like to be the one that raises the issue as every time we get into discussions on it the wedge is driven a little further in.

"I do have strong opinions on the subject and I try to go into detail on the physiology involved and approach the subject from, as near as possible, a scientific basis.

"Unfortunately, my views are invariably swamped by those of the uninformed majority and, sadly, our administrators are, to date, putting public perception of horse welfare well ahead of horse welfare itself.

"I note in your piece (last week) that you start by trying to consider how a whip ban will affect the punter, the jockeys and the trainers but you don't really consider how it will affect the horses.

"I take it you are assuming that the horses will be better off but I don't agree that that is the case.

"As a trainer, I wouldn't be affected in that we would all still be competing under the same rules and conditions.

"I wouldn't win any more or any less races but I am still very strongly in favour of the retention of the whip as I believe it to be an essential tool for the proper riding and handling of a horse, especially a racehorse at full gallop.

"As Luca Cumani says, 'a jockey without a whip is like a plumber without a spanner'.

"I think it is essential instrument for the safety and welfare of the horse but not in the sense that most consider it. It is not something 'to be drawn in a dangerous situation'. The reins are for steering.

"The whip cannot make the horse go any faster than it is inherently capable of. It just makes it pull out its best when it matters.

"I have often likened the use of the whip by a jockey to the second in the corner with his boxer before the last round giving his man a slap on the cheek and saying 'come on, wake up, keep your chin in and look after yourself'.

"I would hate to see my horses racing without it."

PAT CAREY

Victorian Group I-winning trainer.

"If we are staring down the barrel of a ban then I believe modification is absolutely 100 percent necessary.

"It may well bring out better qualities in our riders.

"I don't think I've ever seen the best horse lose a race through the lack of use of the whip.

"We need to be balanced and measured in our handling of this issue.''

ROBBIE GRIFFITHS

Group I-winning trainer, former jockey and president Victorian branch of the Australia Trainers Association.

"I'm comfortable with our whip rules as they stand, especially after the recent changes. The key point, often overlooked, is that a horse who is feeling pain will run slower not faster so therefore much of the public perception is simply wrong.

"The whip will encourage, remind or stimulate. The new padded whip is very soft. It's there to make the horse concentrate, not to inflict pain. Horses are not punished as they might have been many years ago.

"Taking it away would be fraught with danger from an OH&S point of view as jockeys are entitled to as safe a workplace as possible. I think it's reasonable to think they need one to perhaps stop a horse darting left or right or whipping right around."

POSSIBLE SOLUTION

The whip may be carried - to be used forward of the saddle, slap down the shoulder with both hands on reins - or waved at the horse forward with the hand coming off the rein, but never used behind the saddle.

STEP ONE

Announce, commencing 1 Aug 2017, that whips are allowed to be carried but not used behind the saddle in all two-year-old races in Australia.

Jockeys are permitted to carry whips for control and education but not to be used behind the saddle.

If a breach of this occurs, horse is or may be disqualified. Onus squarely with riders.

This may promote numerous positives.

Most two-year-olds, if not all, run on a mix of fear, adrenalin and natural running ability.

The use of a whip to make them go faster is almost totally irrelevant.

Thus banning whip use on juveniles is a great start to change perceptions.

Jockeys will also re-learn how to ride hands and heels, maybe even drop their irons to facilitate this and even increase their own safety by not using the toe in the iron (dependent on the whip as you can't kick), modern riding style.

Another plus is educating our young horses to "find the line" free of pain and a bad experience.

We may see even see less of the stallion farm driven emphasis placed on two-year-old racing which may, in turn, have fewer high class horses rushed to stud and thus potentially reinvigorate the racing competition among our older horses (which is also being diminished by the sale of promising horses to Asia).

STEP TWO

Announce, commencing 1 Aug 2018, that all two-year-old and three-year-old racing will adopt this rule. So all the two-year-olds of the previous season are now three continue on with the whip ban and maintain the ban on new season two-year-olds.

STEP THREE

Announce, commencing 1 Aug 2019, a ban on the whip being used (it may be carried), in all races in Australia.

By this stage, horses, jockeys, punters and everyone else will be educated and conditioned to the non-usage of the whip behind the saddle.

Riders will be better riders, horses will be better educated.

Racegoers, punters and the casual observer will have by then become au fait with a new style of going to the line.

No counting of strikes, no more fines, no more negativity.

OUTCOME

Racing has controlled its future, established a new era for the benefit of the animal, and we can all settle down with a cup of tea and marvel at how this "problem" became solved.

How about no.


Posted By: djebel
Date Posted: 16 Jan 2017 at 5:39pm
Pat Carey seems to differ.

Originally posted by <strong style=font-family: verdana, sans-serif; font-size: 12.8px; line-height: 17.92px;>PAT CAREY</strong> PAT CAREY wrote:

 

Victorian Group I-winning trainer.

"If we are staring down the barrel of a ban then I believe modification is absolutely 100 percent necessary.

"It may well bring out better qualities in our riders.

"I don't think I've ever seen the best horse lose a race through the lack of use of the whip.

"We need to be balanced and measured in our handling of this issue.''




-------------
reductio ad absurdum


Posted By: RED HUNTER
Date Posted: 16 Jan 2017 at 5:39pm
If a breach of this occurs, horse is or may be disqualified

NO NO NO...disqualify the jock not the punter and disqualify the jock for 3 months at least...DONT LET IT FALL on the PUNTER,GOOSE.


Posted By: Sneck
Date Posted: 16 Jan 2017 at 5:40pm
Originally posted by djebel djebel wrote:

Pat Carey seems to differ.

Originally posted by <strong style=font-family: verdana, sans-serif; font-size: 12.8px; line-height: 17.92px;>PAT CAREY PAT CAREY wrote:

 

Victorian Group I-winning trainer.

"If we are staring down the barrel of a ban then I believe modification is absolutely 100 percent necessary.

"It may well bring out better qualities in our riders.

"I don't think I've ever seen the best horse lose a race through the lack of use of the whip.

"We need to be balanced and measured in our handling of this issue.''


He's wrong, and that is a laughable statement.


Posted By: Sneck
Date Posted: 16 Jan 2017 at 5:42pm
progress for the sake of progress Sleepy


Posted By: Sneck
Date Posted: 16 Jan 2017 at 5:44pm
How about a new rule, if you don't hit them as many times as Olivier Placais you're outed for failing to give your mount every possible chance Thumbs Up


Posted By: Carioca
Date Posted: 16 Jan 2017 at 6:37pm
Couple of pearlers here quote=. the use of the whip on 2 yo to make him go faster is totally irrelevant. end of.
Luca Cumani " having no whip is like a plumber going to work without a spanner" how true!
I used a similar phrase a few months back " like a carpenter going to work without a hammer" , got laughted at by a respected poster, ( wot me worry) lol, my take on this, it will never be completely banned, down the shoulder and a back handed manner behind the saddle is what I see,until these jocks stop riding with just their toe in the irons
hands and heel riding will never be, except for R Thompson H Bowman and one or two others, any how who wants to listen I'll shut up.


Posted By: RED HUNTER
Date Posted: 16 Jan 2017 at 7:45pm
You know you're on a real goer when Thompson's legs are windmilling and the whip is enforced with the right hand. PURE JOY.


Posted By: Sneck
Date Posted: 16 Jan 2017 at 7:46pm
Originally posted by Carioca Carioca wrote:

Couple of pearlers here quote=. the use of the whip on 2 yo to make him go faster is totally irrelevant. end of.
Luca Cumani " having no whip is like a plumber going to work without a spanner" how true!
I used a similar phrase a few months back " like a carpenter going to work without a hammer" , got laughted at by a respected poster, ( wot me worry) lol, my take on this, it will never be completely banned, down the shoulder and a back handed manner behind the saddle is what I see,until these jocks stop riding with just their toe in the irons
hands and heel riding will never be, except for R Thompson H Bowman and one or two others, any how who wants to listen I'll shut up.
Spurs on?


Posted By: Carioca
Date Posted: 16 Jan 2017 at 8:04pm
Dummy's, yes!


Posted By: acacia alba
Date Posted: 16 Jan 2017 at 8:54pm
See the idiot,s girlfriend got done for excessive whip use , the same day he has a brain fade and makes headlines ?

-------------
animals before people.


Posted By: Gay3
Date Posted: 16 Jan 2017 at 9:35pm
Nikita had a winner at W/bool yesterday, I love this post from her Big smile

https://www.facebook.com/berimannnnn?fref=ufi" rel="nofollow - Nikita Beriman The best ever!!! My beautiful girl. I had to go and massage her bum and beg her to forgive me for smacking her. so proud of her.


-------------
Wisdom has been chasing me but I've always outrun it!


Posted By: troppo75
Date Posted: 17 Jan 2017 at 1:44am
Can we have a brexit for the jockey whip change rule ideas? Those to vote in, those to vote out?

I think there would be a majority for keeping the whip.. despite a bunch of trainers publicly saying they want it gone. It's typical that the masses will say what they think is politically correct to say so they don't cop gelati

Put it to a private ballot and see what floats


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Now having passed 1000 posts I feel you are all so much the wiser for my having said... stuff!


Posted By: 3blindmice
Date Posted: 17 Jan 2017 at 11:10am
Interesting. What "bunch of trainers" are you quoting? Ignoring the fact that "the masses" often get things wrong, it seems to me you're verballing them (whoever they may be) also. 

Steve Moran was obviously looking for some relevance when he wrote his opinion for Racenet. There was nothing new in his comments, nor anything particularly insightful. 



Posted By: troppo75
Date Posted: 17 Jan 2017 at 7:05pm
Originally posted by 3blindmice 3blindmice wrote:

Interesting. What "bunch of trainers" are you quoting? Ignoring the fact that "the masses" often get things wrong, it seems to me you're verballing them (whoever they may be) also. 

Steve Moran was obviously looking for some relevance when he wrote his opinion for Racenet. There was nothing new in his comments, nor anything particularly insightful. 


Articles I've read on this topic have a swayed majority vote toward banning... the one guy (from UK) who mentions keeping the whip is totally apologetic and prefaces his opinion by saying.. 'i know people wont like my side of it' 

we are continually having to apologize to others for what we feel.. even if it's not without some merit / reasoning. Should a jockey be penalized for using a whip to win a race or maintain a horse going straight? This is what the world is coming to. 

To try to bring in a NEW rule.. not to allow a backhand on a 2yo? How many rules do we need? Whoever brings up these debates is only pandering to the left. Soon enough the sport will be debated if we ban racing all together. 




-------------
Now having passed 1000 posts I feel you are all so much the wiser for my having said... stuff!


Posted By: 3blindmice
Date Posted: 17 Jan 2017 at 8:32pm
I'd suggest that one article which canvases a handful of opinions is hardly reflective of the views of trainers, jockeys, owners, punters or officials in this country. There is no uniformity of opinion among any of those groups from my reading. If anything there seems to be a solid push among the hoi polloi against any further changes to whip rules.  

As with Dutton's hysterical opinion that Xmas has been taken over by politically correct (leftie) school teachers it pays to take little notice of dressmakers with agendas and journalists needing to fill column inches.


Posted By: 3blindmice
Date Posted: 17 Jan 2017 at 8:38pm
Originally posted by troppo75 troppo75 wrote:

Originally posted by 3blindmice 3blindmice wrote:

Interesting. What "bunch of trainers" are you quoting? Ignoring the fact that "the masses" often get things wrong, it seems to me you're verballing them (whoever they may be) also. 

Steve Moran was obviously looking for some relevance when he wrote his opinion for Racenet. There was nothing new in his comments, nor anything particularly insightful. 


Articles I've read on this topic have a swayed majority vote toward banning... the one guy (from UK) who mentions keeping the whip is totally apologetic and prefaces his opinion by saying.. 'i know people wont like my side of it' 

we are continually having to apologize to others for what we feel.. even if it's not without some merit / reasoning. Should a jockey be penalized for using a whip to win a race or maintain a horse going straight? This is what the world is coming to. 

To try to bring in a NEW rule.. not to allow a backhand on a 2yo? How many rules do we need? Whoever brings up these debates is only pandering to the left. Soon enough the sport will be debated if we ban racing all together. 



Sorry, overlooked these little gems. So you're suggesting that articles written by racing columnists are a conspiracy of the left? You're obviously from the Dutton school of hyperbolic misinformation. 


Posted By: Sneck
Date Posted: 17 Jan 2017 at 9:23pm
Originally posted by 3blindmice 3blindmice wrote:

Originally posted by troppo75 troppo75 wrote:

Originally posted by 3blindmice 3blindmice wrote:

Interesting. What "bunch of trainers" are you quoting? Ignoring the fact that "the masses" often get things wrong, it seems to me you're verballing them (whoever they may be) also. 

Steve Moran was obviously looking for some relevance when he wrote his opinion for Racenet. There was nothing new in his comments, nor anything particularly insightful. 


Articles I've read on this topic have a swayed majority vote toward banning... the one guy (from UK) who mentions keeping the whip is totally apologetic and prefaces his opinion by saying.. 'i know people wont like my side of it' 

we are continually having to apologize to others for what we feel.. even if it's not without some merit / reasoning. Should a jockey be penalized for using a whip to win a race or maintain a horse going straight? This is what the world is coming to. 

To try to bring in a NEW rule.. not to allow a backhand on a 2yo? How many rules do we need? Whoever brings up these debates is only pandering to the left. Soon enough the sport will be debated if we ban racing all together. 



Sorry, overlooked these little gems. So you're suggesting that articles written by racing columnists are a conspiracy of the left? You're obviously from the Dutton school of hyperbolic misinformation. 
Yes.

It's pure virtue signalling.


Posted By: Sneck
Date Posted: 17 Jan 2017 at 9:26pm
Originally posted by troppo75 troppo75 wrote:

Originally posted by 3blindmice 3blindmice wrote:

Interesting. What "bunch of trainers" are you quoting? Ignoring the fact that "the masses" often get things wrong, it seems to me you're verballing them (whoever they may be) also. 

Steve Moran was obviously looking for some relevance when he wrote his opinion for Racenet. There was nothing new in his comments, nor anything particularly insightful. 


Articles I've read on this topic have a swayed majority vote toward banning... the one guy (from UK) who mentions keeping the whip is totally apologetic and prefaces his opinion by saying.. 'i know people wont like my side of it' 

we are continually having to apologize to others for what we feel.. even if it's not without some merit / reasoning. Should a jockey be penalized for using a whip to win a race or maintain a horse going straight? This is what the world is coming to. 

To try to bring in a NEW rule.. not to allow a backhand on a 2yo? How many rules do we need? Whoever brings up these debates is only pandering to the left. Soon enough the sport will be debated if we ban racing all together. 


Tell them you're open to discussion pertaining to further restrictions on the whip once halal and kosher butchering are banned.

I doubt you'll ever have to have the discussion.


Posted By: 3blindmice
Date Posted: 17 Jan 2017 at 9:40pm
Originally posted by Sneck Sneck wrote:


It's pure virtue signalling.

Your cynicism is on the same line of betting as his leftie conspiracy theory. 


Posted By: Red Hare
Date Posted: 07 Feb 2017 at 4:09pm
How many strikes are you allowed past the post?

Kate Walters got at least four in on Brigadier in R5 at Ballarat.


Posted By: Tlazolteotl
Date Posted: 29 Apr 2017 at 8:24pm
Stakes winner whipped 27 times but no protest by stewards or jockey


Ben Dorries
29/4/17
https://www.racenet.com.au/news/133571/Stakes-winner-whipped-27-times-but-no-protest-by-jockey-or-stewards" rel="nofollow - https://www.racenet.com.au/news/133571/Stakes-winner-whipped-27-times-but-no-protest-by-jockey-or-stewards


Leading Brisbane apprentice Tiffani Brooker admitted she totally forgot about the whip rule in an extraordinary aftermath to the Eagle Farm raceday on Saturday.

Brooker was suspended for seven days and fined $2000 after stewards charged her with whipping Group III Gunsynd Classic winner Dreams Aplenty 17 times before the 100m.

Jockey Larry Cassidy, who rode runner-up Violate which went down by a nose, admitted he should have fired in a whip rule protest. 

Stewards also elected not to lodge an objection on behalf of the second placegetter.

Brooker, who scored her first Stakes win, was asked by Reardon whether she had forgotten about the whip rule.

"Yes. I got caught up in the moment," Brooker replied. "I don't have a valid excuse."

Brooker, who pleaded guilty, was told by Reardon her whip use was "way over the top" and she had struck Dreams Aplenty 27 times in total.

"I way, way over-hit it," Brooker said.



Posted By: Sir Gov
Date Posted: 29 Apr 2017 at 8:25pm
Rules are a farce.

Lack of enforcement is going to result in it banned altogether


Posted By: Sneck
Date Posted: 29 Apr 2017 at 8:31pm
Brooker is a weak whip rider though, even though she used the whip so many times she did not give the horse a beating, they were flicks.

A strong rider like Jim Doyle could ride within the whip rules and the horse would feel it more.


Posted By: Sneck
Date Posted: 29 Apr 2017 at 8:33pm
Originally posted by Sir Gov Sir Gov wrote:

Rules are a farce.

Lack of enforcement is going to result in it banned altogether
Keep the whip, scrap the rule.


Posted By: djebel
Date Posted: 11 Jun 2017 at 7:14pm

ATT: Beirne has answer to whip-use uproar

BRAD DAVIDSON, The Sunday Telegraph

FORM guru Dominic Beirne has a formula to take away some of the controversy over the whip rule.

Punters and owners are becoming fed up losing races when the winning jockey breaks the whip rule. Beirne has come up with a proposal to tackle the issue should overuse of the whip be used in a protest hearing.

JUNE STAKES:  http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/sport/superracing/nsw-racing/att-beirne-has-answer-to-whipuse-uproar/news-story/superracing/nsw-racing/june-stakes-2017-the-monstar-puts-josh-adams-back-on-top/news-story/668bebbb4299cb8f84f3990cdcb70c00" rel="nofollow - MONSTAR MOMENT FOR ADAMS

PREVIEW:  http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/sport/superracing/nsw-racing/att-beirne-has-answer-to-whipuse-uproar/news-story/superracing/nsw-racing/she-will-reigns-return-gives-portelli-a-winter-boost/news-story/845ce40ef52d06fdf0c16766e13eba0e" rel="nofollow - PORTELLI’S PLAN TO REIGN SUPREME

STRADBROKE:  http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/sport/superracing/nsw-racing/att-beirne-has-answer-to-whipuse-uproar/news-story/superracing/stradbroke-handicap-2017-beadman-misses-rare-achievement-as-he-claims-first-group-1-as-trainer/news-story/c56dce31b155c8b3d191f78b7b8dd0d1" rel="nofollow - KUDOS APLENTY BUT BEADMAN MISSES RARE FEAT

The formula is: 0.1 *X/A. ‘X’ being the number of illegal whips and ‘A’ being an apprentice’s allowance (if applicable).

For example: if a senior jockey riding the winner hits the horse six times with the whip before the 100m mark (one more than allowed), it would be 0.1 x 1 = 0.1 lengths. Therefore, if the margin to the second horse was less than 0.1 lengths and a protest was lodged, it should be upheld and the second horse declared the winner.

Dom Beirne has crunched the numbers on a formula for overuse of the whip.

Another example: if a 3kg-claiming apprentice hits the winner 11 times before the 100m (six more than allowed), then it would be 0.1 x 6 divided by 3 = 0.2 lengths. If the margin was less than 0.2 of a length, the second horse should win the race on protest, if lodged.

“In the Australian Rules of Racing, there are many rules quantified by numerical limits. The formula aims to assist stewards to apply this rule with reduced controversy,” Beirne told At The Track. “My formula was created in a blink, but in thinking about it in the past week, I struggle to improve it. By altering the coefficient 0.1, the rule maker can make the protest more or less able to be upheld. The A divisor provides for the weaker whip strength of a claimable apprentice. The A may be governed further by gender and age.”



-------------
reductio ad absurdum


Posted By: 3blindmice
Date Posted: 11 Jun 2017 at 7:22pm
The age of instant gratification has a new member - pseudo analysis and arithmetic "in a blink".

Does he have a formula for calculating the time allowed for connections and stewards to review every race prior to correct weight?


Posted By: djebel
Date Posted: 11 Jun 2017 at 7:35pm
As he himself will admit, that is a different side of the debate.

Once a protest has been lodged their should be a formula for working out when a race will be taken away from an offender. 




-------------
reductio ad absurdum


Posted By: Second Chance
Date Posted: 11 Jun 2017 at 7:48pm
There is now Djebel, flawed as it is and rarely enforced.

About 9 months ago one of our got done by a small margin and the jockey said we would've won had he been allowed use more vigour prior to the 100m mark.  Kept my counsel but was thinking why the hell didn't he give the gelding the extra couple around the turn when the horse invariably had a flat spot.  Confused

As for Dom's suggestion, I'm with 3BM.


Posted By: RED HUNTER
Date Posted: 11 Jun 2017 at 11:54pm
The day a winner is disqualified,under a whip rule indiscretion,is the day many will walk away.

One jockey that has a likeness for yanking would love this.

Your market stolen? Easy to fix.

A huge payout? Action afoot.



Posted By: RED HUNTER
Date Posted: 11 Jun 2017 at 11:56pm
Dominic should keep his ALGEBRA away from the punt.


Posted By: djebel
Date Posted: 12 Jun 2017 at 12:07am
Originally posted by RED HUNTER RED HUNTER wrote:

The day a winner is disqualified,under a whip rule indiscretion,is the day many will walk away.




Nobody would walk away.

People may threaten to walk away but it would be no more than bluffing.

LOL


-------------
reductio ad absurdum


Posted By: 3blindmice
Date Posted: 12 Jun 2017 at 12:24am
Most corps pay out on protests anyway. Pity the poor TAB punters and owners of horses whose riders observe the rules. 

A formula suggests there is a method and quantifiable relationships involved. To get anything like a real formula would require thousands of case studies of horse speed variation - ie was there evidence that a horse ran faster under the whip prior to the 100m mark. Even then not all horses react the same way to the whip. Some horses undoubtedly give more, some I suspect just take the whip as a reminder to keep going as best they can.  



Posted By: Sneck
Date Posted: 12 Jun 2017 at 12:54am
Piss of Beirne you spaz.


Posted By: RED HUNTER
Date Posted: 12 Jun 2017 at 6:31am
Wouldn't it be wonderful if a horse of the ilk of WINX ,should it ever be hit way too many times, be disqualified through a whip rule.

Also can't wait for a horse like WINX,at almost unbackable odds, weighs light in a MAJOR RACE.

See what happens in either scenario.
*******************************************************************
Result...the whip would have to be banned to protect punters and restore confidence

and

weighing light.....if you can not win you should never be allowed to lose.....a review of the disqualification rule here.




Posted By: Luva Punt
Date Posted: 12 Jun 2017 at 8:17am
There is an easy answer. Make the jockey accountable. Increase the fines to $10,000 for every additional strike in breach of the rules. You will see jockeys conforming to the rules immediately. If it doesn't have the desired effect, increase it to $15,000. Suddenly you won't have a problem whatsoever. To start disqualifying horses would penalise punters and owners, which would just make racing more dodgy than it is.


Posted By: bradjm
Date Posted: 12 Jun 2017 at 8:38am
Its a padded whip fiddlesticks , remove the stupid rule.



Posted By: Luva Punt
Date Posted: 12 Jun 2017 at 8:54am
The only reason the whip rule is not being adhered to is:

1). The stewards are doing nothing to enforce it.
2). Jockeys are just breaching the rule because the current penalties are just a bandaid measur.

It is a no brainer, increase the financial penalties for any jockey who breaches the rules.

We won't even be having this discussion if the penalties are far more severe.


Posted By: bradjm
Date Posted: 12 Jun 2017 at 9:39am
We won't be having it if we get rid of the dumb rule


Posted By: Carioca
Date Posted: 12 Jun 2017 at 12:31pm
Originally posted by bradjm bradjm wrote:

We won't be having it if we get rid of the dumb rule


I'm with you mate, I wonder how many races Octagonal would have won without the persuader, and many more top class horse I have seen in my time including Tulloch who at times needed a little reminder, the rules an ass, and they crucify Margaret for her thoughts, go figure!


Posted By: djebel
Date Posted: 12 Jun 2017 at 1:20pm
Originally posted by bradjm bradjm wrote:

Its a padded whip fiddlesticks , remove the stupid rule.


What does that mean, "It's a padded whip" ?




-------------
reductio ad absurdum


Posted By: djebel
Date Posted: 12 Jun 2017 at 1:22pm
Originally posted by bradjm bradjm wrote:

We won't be having it if we get rid of the dumb rule


I do agree with this.

Although I suspect differently to you.

We should have the same rule as they have in Europe and I suspect the US.




-------------
reductio ad absurdum


Posted By: bradjm
Date Posted: 12 Jun 2017 at 1:56pm
Originally posted by djebel djebel wrote:

Originally posted by bradjm bradjm wrote:

Its a padded whip fiddlesticks , remove the stupid rule.



What does that mean, "It's a padded whip" ?





What do you think it means

The new padded whips were introduced in 2009 replacing the conventional whips, to placate idiots that have nothing to do with horses.


Posted By: RED HUNTER
Date Posted: 12 Jun 2017 at 1:57pm
PADDED WHIP

"DAYDREAM EXPLORER"resents it

Go to Kembla race 1 SATURDAY 10 JUNE


THE WHIP STILL WORKS FINE


Posted By: Gay3
Date Posted: 12 Jun 2017 at 2:20pm
I noted Lachie King put the whip away over the last 100m on Savannah Moon y'day at Swan Hill & she did noticably lift to win narrowly, a fact he made mention of in his interview.
Pretty rare to see green kids have the courage to do this but he's had a super grounding & imo, a few more brains than some Smile
I see Nikata got time for overuse x 3 prior to the last 100m with her serial offender record landing her the suspension.


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Wisdom has been chasing me but I've always outrun it!


Posted By: Carioca
Date Posted: 12 Jun 2017 at 3:32pm
Good point Gay3 , the young lad has a great tutor if his dad is who I think it may be, there has been a number of times I've seen young jocks hitting a bit low ( flank area) and wondering why they can't " read." the resentment or horses fading while under the whip, the ones that can feel this are either naturals or mature beyond their years, but this should also be shown to the young ones at apprentice school, if anyone had the privilege to watch Geoff Lane , Bill Williamson , or Billy Cook they would understand that having your horse fully balanced and at full stride before the last resort is applied, the debate on the whip rule imo will always cause angst among the racing fraternity, but really it should be back to the apprentice school under the guidance of someone like Darren Gauci.


Posted By: 3blindmice
Date Posted: 12 Jun 2017 at 3:37pm
Some years ago prior to the new rules I was on a roughie ew at Sandown. Loomed up over the last furlong and a half but instead of continuing his whip riding, on three occasions his apprentice jockey reverted to hand and heels. Each time he went for the whip the horse visibly surged - something I've rarely seen. Horse went down by a half neck opr so iirc. Jock's intermittent use of the whip undoubtedly meant the diff between winning and losing. That experience is one of the reasons I don't support banning of the whip. Some horses, esp those educated under its use, undoubtedly respond to it.


Posted By: djebel
Date Posted: 12 Jun 2017 at 3:41pm
LOL

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reductio ad absurdum


Posted By: Sneck
Date Posted: 12 Jun 2017 at 3:45pm
Originally posted by djebel djebel wrote:

Originally posted by bradjm bradjm wrote:

We won't be having it if we get rid of the dumb rule


I do agree with this.

Although I suspect differently to you.

We should have the same rule as they have in Europe and I suspect the US.


We should have the same rule as Hong Kong.


Posted By: djebel
Date Posted: 12 Jun 2017 at 3:48pm
What is their rule ?

They do have the very best hand picked jockeys up there.




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reductio ad absurdum


Posted By: 3blindmice
Date Posted: 12 Jun 2017 at 3:48pm
Smile 
Had dismissed that from my memory until Gay's comment djebel  but the recollection still irks me somewhat. Fortunately for the jockey I've forgotten both his and the horse's name. 


Posted By: Sneck
Date Posted: 12 Jun 2017 at 3:51pm
Originally posted by djebel djebel wrote:

What is their rule ?

They do have the very best hand picked jockeys up there.


They don't have one Wink


Posted By: Sneck
Date Posted: 12 Jun 2017 at 3:55pm
(3) The Stewards may punish a jockey if in their opinion he has used his whip to excess or in an improper or inappropriate manner.


Posted By: djebel
Date Posted: 12 Jun 2017 at 3:56pm
Originally posted by Sneck Sneck wrote:

Originally posted by djebel djebel wrote:

What is their rule ?

They do have the very best hand picked jockeys up there.


They don't have one Wink

I guess they can do that in their environment.

As I said they have the best hand picked jockeys up there who know what they and their horses are doing.

When I watch footage of old races I cringe at the slather and whack they got away with back in the day.






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reductio ad absurdum


Posted By: Sneck
Date Posted: 12 Jun 2017 at 4:04pm
Originally posted by djebel djebel wrote:

Originally posted by Sneck Sneck wrote:

Originally posted by djebel djebel wrote:

What is their rule ?

They do have the very best hand picked jockeys up there.


They don't have one Wink

I guess they can do that in their environment.

As I said they have the best hand picked jockeys up there who know what they and their horses are doing.

When I watch footage of old races I cringe at the slather and whack they got away with back in the day.




Pavlovian conditioning.

They were doing things the right way back then, if you don't ride like that you fail to give your horse every opportunity to win.


Posted By: Carioca
Date Posted: 12 Jun 2017 at 4:10pm
Originally posted by djebel djebel wrote:

Originally posted by Sneck Sneck wrote:

Originally posted by djebel djebel wrote:

What is their rule ?

They do have the very best hand picked jockeys up there.


They don't have one Wink


I guess they can do that in their environment.

As I said they have the best hand picked jockeys up there who know what they and their horses are doing.

When I watch footage of old races I cringe at the slather and whack they got away with back in the day.



Is that why they were lured o/s to ride for royalty and the mega rich , pity the
" slather and whack" wasn't employed more today especially for the ones that go around in the human race!


Posted By: 3blindmice
Date Posted: 12 Jun 2017 at 4:13pm
Agree djebel and whips were a lot harder then as well. Don't know when it was introduced but we had the overuse rule (think it was something like 'unnecessary use of the whip') for decades and I recall a few jocks being sanctioned for it. It was generally only applied when horses were being continuously belted despite having no hope of finishing in the placings.

I know little about them but would have thought spurs are a bigger issue


Posted By: djebel
Date Posted: 12 Jun 2017 at 4:15pm
I am not talking George Moores day, I am talking more 80s and 90s.




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reductio ad absurdum


Posted By: 3blindmice
Date Posted: 12 Jun 2017 at 4:21pm
Cultural change was necessary and overdue even if the new rule is hit and miss. Most jockeys are far more aware these days and are being trained for every second stride hits, which is a both a worthy skill and a good thing generally speaking. 


Posted By: Carioca
Date Posted: 12 Jun 2017 at 4:57pm
Originally posted by djebel djebel wrote:

I am not talking George Moores day, I am talking more 80s and 90s.


Well thank you djebel for being more specific, suppose I could give you another 10 but I don't want to bore you.


Posted By: djebel
Date Posted: 12 Jun 2017 at 5:06pm
Originally posted by Carioca Carioca wrote:

Originally posted by djebel djebel wrote:

I am not talking George Moores day, I am talking more 80s and 90s.


Well thank you djebel for being more specific, suppose I could give you another 10 but I don't want to bore you.

Give me another 10, it will not bore me Beer

Apart from McEvoy riding for Godolphin, who was the last jockey to go to Europe or India to ride for Royalty ?




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reductio ad absurdum


Posted By: Sneck
Date Posted: 12 Jun 2017 at 5:54pm
Originally posted by djebel djebel wrote:

Originally posted by Carioca Carioca wrote:

Originally posted by djebel djebel wrote:

I am not talking George Moores day, I am talking more 80s and 90s.


Well thank you djebel for being more specific, suppose I could give you another 10 but I don't want to bore you.

Give me another 10, it will not bore me Beer

Apart from McEvoy riding for Godolphin, who was the last jockey to go to Europe or India to ride for Royalty ?


They go to Asia now.


Posted By: scamanda
Date Posted: 12 Jun 2017 at 6:08pm
Originally posted by djebel djebel wrote:

Originally posted by Carioca Carioca wrote:

Originally posted by djebel djebel wrote:

I am not talking George Moores day, I am talking more 80s and 90s.


Well thank you djebel for being more specific, suppose I could give you another 10 but I don't want to bore you.

Give me another 10, it will not bore me Beer

Apart from McEvoy riding for Godolphin, who was the last jockey to go to Europe or India to ride for Royalty ?



JMac?



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I started with nothing and still have most of it left


Posted By: Carioca
Date Posted: 12 Jun 2017 at 6:17pm
Originally posted by djebel djebel wrote:

Originally posted by Carioca Carioca wrote:

Originally posted by djebel djebel wrote:

I am not talking George Moores day, I am talking more 80s and 90s.


Well thank you djebel for being more specific, suppose I could give you another 10 but I don't want to bore you.
Fo

Give me another 10, it will not bore me Beer

Apart from McEvoy riding for Godolphin, who was the last jockey to go to Europe or India to ride for Royalty ?


For Uk royalty the latest ( from reading) would be QLD. jock Russell Maddock
before that both Edgar Britt ,Garny Bougoure, and Billy Cook for KG V1 ,
In India both Britt and Cook for the Maharaja of Baroda, but it's immaterial really,
If you get of your pc one day you may like to read Edgar Britt 's book Post Haste on what he said to the Queen about the whip, it's right up your alley.



Posted By: djebel
Date Posted: 12 Jun 2017 at 6:26pm
Originally posted by Britt Britt wrote:

 

“With a twinkle in her eyes Princess Margaret said ‘if it is naughty, you better give it one,’” Britt wrote. It turned out the whip was redundant that day; the horse behaved impeccably.

Britt won seven classics in England. In his career he rode more than 2000 winners. He is an inductee of the Australian Racing Hall of Fame and in 2004 received the Order of Australia Medal for services to racing.



 


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reductio ad absurdum


Posted By: Carioca
Date Posted: 12 Jun 2017 at 7:02pm
Not that one djebel, when the Queen asked about a certain horses Chance and he replied that he may have to use the whip but forgot the Queen disliked it immensely, but it won without out it ( I think) any how when she came out last she asked if she could see him, she never forgets apparently.


Posted By: Gay3
Date Posted: 12 Jun 2017 at 7:09pm
Originally posted by Carioca Carioca wrote:

Good point Gay3 , the young lad has a great tutor if his dad is who I think it may be, there has been a number of times I've seen young jocks hitting a bit low ( flank area) and wondering why they can't " read." the resentment or horses fading while under the whip, the ones that can feel this are either naturals or mature beyond their years, but this should also be shown to the young ones at apprentice school, if anyone had the privilege to watch Geoff Lane , Bill Williamson , or Billy Cook they would understand that having your horse fully balanced and at full stride before the last resort is applied, the debate on the whip rule imo will always cause angst among the racing fraternity, but really it should be back to the apprentice school under the guidance of someone like Darren Gauci.


3bm, spurs are virtually useless these days due to stirrup length causing connection to the saddlecloth only Smile

Yes, Steven is his Dad & Gerald Egan, apprentice producer extraordinaire, his boss, up in the Mansfield mountains where they learn to ride 1st & be a jockey 2nd. That kid's only been riding 6mths & notched 4 winners at Wang last week, nearly all $20 jobs Clap
Mares more than most, resent the whip as they take offence at punishment for giving their all. He'd been told to get to the outside but was unable to do so & did his best under the circumstances for which connections were thrilled.
Darren Gauci is in fact now teaching the apprentices Big smile


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Wisdom has been chasing me but I've always outrun it!


Posted By: Carioca
Date Posted: 12 Jun 2017 at 7:19pm
Thanks Gay 3 , now that I know a bit more about the young man I'll watch with interest,
good to hear Darren is lending his expertise, has a wealth of knowledge, if they can absorb they will learn, spurs, your right their dummy's anyhow, saddle cloth is half a fly sheet lol.


Posted By: 3blindmice
Date Posted: 12 Jun 2017 at 7:41pm
Thanks Gay. Why would they bother then?





Posted By: Gay3
Date Posted: 12 Jun 2017 at 8:45pm
I don't think many do these days.


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Wisdom has been chasing me but I've always outrun it!


Posted By: JoanFerguson
Date Posted: 12 Jun 2017 at 8:55pm
The only viable option in my eyes is GET RID OF THE WHIP ALL TOGETHER. Good jockeys don't need them.


Posted By: 3blindmice
Date Posted: 12 Jun 2017 at 9:14pm
Originally posted by Gay3 Gay3 wrote:

I don't think many do these days.

I gather that. Just recall seeing something about one of our better jockeys donning them for a particular ride or race day a while back. At the time  I was shocked to learn that they were still sanctioned.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/superracing/vic-racing/racing-australia-rejects-stewards-push-to-ban-spurs/news-story/4f3469492941d9e486df483b42f06229" rel="nofollow - http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/superracing/vic-racing/racing-australia-rejects-stewards-push-to-ban-spurs/news-story/4f3469492941d9e486df483b42f06229

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/superracing/vic-racing/chris-symons-spurs-assist-in-control-and-dont-hurt-horses/news-story/a8a65f122b1a85807bd3192318cf2469" rel="nofollow - http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/superracing/vic-racing/chris-symons-spurs-assist-in-control-and-dont-hurt-horses/news-story/a8a65f122b1a85807bd3192318cf2469

If that spur on Chris Symons' boots isn't capable of inflicting pain on a horse I'll be happy to try a shorter version on his ribs some time. 


Posted By: djebel
Date Posted: 12 Jun 2017 at 9:18pm


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reductio ad absurdum


Posted By: Carioca
Date Posted: 12 Jun 2017 at 10:11pm
They are dummy by name and dummy by nature, if you read his whole story and IF you know anything about the racehorse or other disciplines it's a very small but integral part of the competing, like he says, not used very often and there's a saddlecloth covering the ribs as well, Storm in a teacup imo.


Posted By: djebel
Date Posted: 12 Jun 2017 at 10:18pm
Originally posted by Carioca Carioca wrote:

They are dummy by name and dummy by nature, if you read his whole story and IF you know anything about the racehorse or other disciplines it's a very small but integral part of the competing, like he says, not used very often and there's a saddlecloth covering the ribs as well, Storm in a teacup imo.

In other words it will not be an issue at all to simply ban them.




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reductio ad absurdum



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