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Why are Australian bred stayers slow?

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Topic: Why are Australian bred stayers slow?
Posted By: Tlazolteotl
Subject: Why are Australian bred stayers slow?
Date Posted: 01 Oct 2015 at 11:38am
1 Pedigree

 I am going to rule out pedigree as a primary reason because there are enough Aus bred horses with impeccable staying pedigrees produced every season to get quality stayers, if pedigee was a guarantee of performance.

2 Training

I am going to rule out training as a primary reason because Australian trainers often get good results with the foreign bred, pre-raced horses they buy.

So it's got be something that goes on between the moment a horse is born to the moment it arrives in Australia as a mature horse that has had some racing in Europe. What is it?



Replies:
Posted By: bradjm
Date Posted: 01 Oct 2015 at 12:10pm
Probably pushed for speed too early , if they show speed they get thrown into unsuitable races

Don't have the grounding with long slow open country work like the UK stayers

But probably the biggest factor is the UK broodmare band has a lot of quality staying blood, a lot different to ours where zabeel in a pedigree is considered stamina.


Posted By: furious
Date Posted: 01 Oct 2015 at 12:16pm
And yet Tlazolteotl we had Amelie's Star beat the Colin Stephens field quite well.

Bred in Australia by a great two and three year old in Testa Rossa (VRC Sires' Produce S/Vic Health Cup/Eat Well Live Well Cup/Futurity S/ Emirates S/Lightning S).  He's out of a Sir Dapper mare.  Sir Dapper (Golden Slipper/Spring Champion S etc) was a great two and three year old.  He was by Vain (Golden slipper/Champagne S/Caulfield Guineas/Ascot Vale S/Craven A Stakes etc) a great two and three year old.

Vain was speed on four legs.  Yet he had stamina influences as do most of our fastest horses.  Speed needs stamina and visa versa.  Vain was out of a Orgoglio mare.  Orgoglio got quite a few Oaks and Derby winners.  Next dam was by Helios sire of the great Carbon Copy (AJC Derby, Cox Plate, Sydney Cup, AJC St Leger etc) and Beau Gem (VRC Derby, SA St Leger etc) etc.

Then we see a name we all associate with stayers in Australia and New Zealand - Zabeel.  He is the sire of Amelie's Star dam Zazita.  Next dam is by Canny Lad who was a Golden Slipper winner and W S Cox Plate placed as a three year old.  He also got some stayers ie Republic Lass and his sire Bletchingly (also speed on four legs) gave us our greatest all round performer in Kingston Town.

Last but not least she is from the 13a female line.  One of the greatest producing lines there is.  In fact the second horse past the post Bohemian Lily (is decended from the 13a family of Juliet) is from the same family as So You Think and a full sister to Shamrocker (AJC Derby).  Amelie's Star decends from Juliets 3/4 sister in blood Mendicant who was the dam of the English derby winner Beadsman.  Juliet was sent to Australia and foaled Benvolio a winner of the AJC Derby, Charon, winner of the VRC Derby, AJC Derby, ALL_Aged S etc, Chrysolite (SA St Leger), Sylvia (VRC Oaks) and the Hook (AJC Doncaster H).

So blood does tell.  And we can breed stayers in Australia.  1/2 the time we just don't know it.


Posted By: subastral
Date Posted: 01 Oct 2015 at 12:28pm
Due to many things, mainly tracks and space, we don't give the horses the grounding that Euro's do. Remember an interview with Luca Cumani and he mentioned the kilometres he would put into the horses legs as young horses, but none through fast, short-paced gallops that we give our horses. They go for multi kilometre walks and trots up hills etc.
By the time they are getting close to racing, they just have the stamina ingrained into them that our trainers cant put in.
Their system of racing horses at their optimum distance and none of this build-up distance routine is clearly better for creating decent stayers.


Posted By: subastral
Date Posted: 01 Oct 2015 at 12:29pm
I will also say I don't give a flying f... where the horses come from, and I couldn't care less if 24 overseas horses ran in the Cup. A good horse is a good horse. Long may the best keep coming.


Posted By: Heavenly Glow
Date Posted: 01 Oct 2015 at 1:02pm
Originally posted by Tlazolteotl Tlazolteotl wrote:

1 Pedigree

 I am going to rule out pedigree as a primary reason because there are enough Aus bred horses with impeccable staying pedigrees produced every season to get quality stayers, if pedigee was a guarantee of performance.

2 Training

I am going to rule out training as a primary reason because Australian trainers often get good results with the foreign bred, pre-raced horses they buy.

So it's got be something that goes on between the moment a horse is born to the moment it arrives in Australia as a mature horse that has had some racing in Europe. What is it?


I think its pedigree. We haven't really been able to replace Zabeel as that sire who produced staying types. Because a lot of the money is in 2/3 year old and sprinting races, we don't send our quality broodmares to staying type sires.


Posted By: djebel
Date Posted: 01 Oct 2015 at 1:07pm
BECAUSE THEY HAVE THE SPEED TRAINED OUT OF THEM.

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reductio ad absurdum


Posted By: niki
Date Posted: 01 Oct 2015 at 1:14pm
Originally posted by furious furious wrote:


Last but not least she is from the 13a female line.  One of the greatest producing lines there is.  In fact the second horse past the post Bohemian Lily (is decended from the 13a family of Juliet) is from the same family as So You Think and a full sister to Shamrocker (AJC Derby).  Amelie's Star decends from Juliets 3/4 sister in blood Mendicant who was the dam of the English derby winner Beadsman.  Juliet was sent to Australia and foaled Benvolio a winner of the AJC Derby, Charon, winner of the VRC Derby, AJC Derby, ALL_Aged S etc, Chrysolite (SA St Leger), Sylvia (VRC Oaks) and the Hook (AJC Doncaster H).

So blood does tell.  And we can breed stayers in Australia.  1/2 the time we just don't know it.


Really? I hope that is the case furious Smile
13a (Juliet) mare Joy Rising to Starcraft waiting for PTIF ... hope to see some staying potential .. Star


Posted By: furious
Date Posted: 01 Oct 2015 at 1:29pm
Good luck niki.  Another one from the Juliet line is Alcopop.  He wasn't too bad also at the staying game.


Posted By: Tlazolteotl
Date Posted: 01 Oct 2015 at 2:35pm
Originally posted by Tlazolteotl Tlazolteotl wrote:

Originally posted by Heavenly Glow Heavenly Glow wrote:

Originally posted by Tlazolteotl Tlazolteotl wrote:

1 Pedigree

 I am going to rule out pedigree as a primary reason because there are enough Aus bred horses with impeccable staying pedigrees produced every season to get quality stayers, if pedigee was a guarantee of performance.

2 Training

I am going to rule out training as a primary reason because Australian trainers often get good results with the foreign bred, pre-raced horses they buy.

So it's got be something that goes on between the moment a horse is born to the moment it arrives in Australia as a mature horse that has had some racing in Europe. What is it?


I think its pedigree. We haven't really been able to replace Zabeel as that sire who produced staying types. Because a lot of the money is in 2/3 year old and sprinting races, we don't send our quality broodmares to staying type sires.

Montjeu, Galileo, High Chap etc got scrubbers in Australia/NZ did they?


Posted By: Tlazolteotl
Date Posted: 01 Oct 2015 at 2:39pm
And there must be hundreds of Montjeu, Galileo, High Chap etc mares in Australasia so the other theory I often read- mares not up to scratch- seems peculiar to me.


Posted By: Newtown Old Boy
Date Posted: 01 Oct 2015 at 2:58pm
Not enough races > 2000m. And that includes country / provincial racing.


Posted By: deejays destiny
Date Posted: 01 Oct 2015 at 3:05pm
I feel that Aussie Staying ranks are falling behind because of the money you can get if you have a good 2yo. Everyone wants to make as much money as they can as fast as they can.  One thing I will always remember from an old trainer (now departed) when I expressed interest in becoming a trainer myself (hopefully within the next 5 to 10 years), patience son, patience is the key. 


Posted By: bradjm
Date Posted: 01 Oct 2015 at 4:16pm
Originally posted by Tlazolteotl Tlazolteotl wrote:

And there must be hundreds of Montjeu, Galileo, High Chap etc mares in Australasia so the other theory I often read- mares not up to scratch- seems peculiar to me.



How many of them are out of mares carrying classic UK blood



Posted By: Banjo
Date Posted: 01 Oct 2015 at 5:11pm
Originally posted by deejays destiny deejays destiny wrote:

I feel that Aussie Staying ranks are falling behind because of the money you can get if you have a good 2yo. Everyone wants to make as much money as they can as fast as they can.  One thing I will always remember from an old trainer (now departed) when I expressed interest in becoming a trainer myself (hopefully within the next 5 to 10 years), patience son, patience is the key. 


Less and less horses are racing at 2. But if that is still not transcending into more stayers it proves it is all about training methods.    Aussie trainers don't have the facilities or time to train staying


Posted By: Bonfield
Date Posted: 01 Oct 2015 at 5:21pm
It's a really good question. The obvious answer is that we breed for speed and value Golden Slipper winners as sires rather than Derby winners. However I think it goes deeper than this. Before we had all the imports many of our staying races were won by NZ bred horses. I don't think this was just due to NZ staying sires like Sir Tristram, Zabeel, Zamazaan etc. It may not sound logical, but I can't help think there is something in the grass, soil or terrain in NZ which helps them produce stayers better than in Australia.

Whatever the reason, it is a fact Australia does not tend to produce high quality stayers. And I don't think it's just pedigrees, although no doubt that is part of it.


Posted By: furious
Date Posted: 01 Oct 2015 at 5:23pm
Cummings was a very patient trainer he also trained winners of the Golden Slipper.  Patience is the answer but they also can and do run as two year olds.

The great stayers of our past were often the top two year old also.  Same as overseas.  We are not improving the breed by not running them.  We may be weakening the breed.


Posted By: Afros
Date Posted: 01 Oct 2015 at 5:51pm
My guess is that any horse that shows speed is ear-marked as a sprinter or miler, and if they show no speed then they are called stayers.  The horses that come through with speed also mixed in with stamina do not get the chance to prove themselves as stayers because they are kept to shorter distances due to their speediness...

It seems to me that in Europe the ones with good speed find their way to the top and then their level of stamina determines if they are a sprinter, miler, middle distance or staying horse.  Unlike here where the mindset seems to be to try make them a sprinter and go at longer distance races if that doesn't work (unless they're a Zabeel/High Chap etc).

I guess other factors such as conditioning as young horses come into it also.

Can only imagine what would have happened if Treve had been born in Australia, but my guess is 2yo triple crown campaign, Flight/Thousand Guineas campaign with a shot at the VRC Oaks if going well enough, then a 3yo autumn on either an ATC Oaks or the Doncaster campaign depending on what the horse tells us she wants to do, and if she picked up some good black type in there head to stud, if not punch on for her 4yo season...


Posted By: Tlazolteotl
Date Posted: 01 Oct 2015 at 6:22pm
Originally posted by Bonfield Bonfield wrote:

It's a really good question. The obvious answer is that we breed for speed and value Golden Slipper winners as sires rather than Derby winners. However I think it goes deeper than this. Before we had all the imports many of our staying races were won by NZ bred horses. I don't think this was just due to NZ staying sires like Sir Tristram, Zabeel, Zamazaan etc. It may not sound logical, but I can't help think there is something in the grass, soil or terrain in NZ which helps them produce stayers better than in Australia.

Whatever the reason, it is a fact Australia does not tend to produce high quality stayers. And I don't think it's just pedigrees, although no doubt that is part of it.

My error- I should have put Australasian in the title- NZ bred stayers are doing no better than Aus bred.


Posted By: whitt0
Date Posted: 01 Oct 2015 at 6:30pm
Going to change guys.  We have a much greater bench of stamina in the stallion ranks over the last couple of years.

Domestically wit the likes of Dalakhani, Fiorente, Americain and all the kiwis as well like Reliable Man, Savabeel etc.


Posted By: Ticino
Date Posted: 01 Oct 2015 at 8:16pm
Hello,
my opinions from the far and distant Germany.

Another reason, why Stayers in AUS somewhat out of fashion, there are obviuosly not enough valuable races for this kind of breed, except the Cox Plate, Melbourne Cup just to name a few. Breeders habe no intention for breeding long distance horses.

In my much smaller Country we have only a population of ca. 1500 Thoroughbred broodmares. So the number of races is much lower, we only have 44 Group races, seven of them are Group I, all over distances ranging from 2000 - 2400 meters. None of our Sprint- or Mileraces got the highest Rrting. Only 2 of our juvenile races have a Group 3 level.
Our Group Racing System still shows the preference for the 1 1/2 mile horse.

Only a small percentage of your "homebreds" started their racing career as 2 year olds, because they are not so precocious. Most horses start racing when they are 3 year olds (NH), so we have lots of maiden races over longer distances.

The best stayer is the "Stayer with Speed", a thoroughbred who runs over along distant, but can "sprint" the last 300- 400 meters, not a plodder winning by sheer Stamina. I remember Lando, who won the "Japan Cup" (won German Derby) ran in training 1000 meters under a Minute.

Now to the breeding aspect. It is very likely, breeding with stayers with the more sprint oriented damlines in AUS, the first generation offspring is not very succesful on the racetrack. So you need some of "Stamina" in Thoroughbredbreeding, too. The 2 - 3 Generation offspring can show more ability on longer distances.

Hopefully I could offer some useful informations.

regards, Ticino


Posted By: Speediskey
Date Posted: 01 Oct 2015 at 9:15pm
That seems like absolute crap to me? There is far, far more money in big staying races. Golden Slipper/TJ Smith are the only big sprint races.


Posted By: Jamal
Date Posted: 01 Oct 2015 at 9:45pm
Would be interesting to find out how many Australian bred stayers have won the Melbourne Cup in the past 30 years..

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Australian racing is only good up to 1400m in terms of world standards when it comes to depth/quality in numbers


Posted By: Jamal
Date Posted: 01 Oct 2015 at 10:10pm
Melbourne Cup Winners - Since 1970

**Australian Bred Winners in Bold**


1970: Baghdad Note (NZ)

1971: Silver Knight (NZ)

1972: Piping Lane (AUS)


1973: Gala Supreme (AUS)

1974: Think Big (NZ)

1975: Think Big (NZ)

1976: Van Der Hum (NZ)

1977: Gold And Black (NZ)

1978: Arwon (NZ)

1979: Hyperno (AUS)

1980: Beldale Ball (USA)

1981: Just A Dash (AUS)

1982: Gurner's Lane (NZ)

1983: Kiwi (NZ)

1984: Black Knight (AUS)

1985: What A Nuisance (NZ)

1986: At Talaq (USA)

1987: Kensei (NZ)

1988: Empire Rose (NZ)

1989: Tawrrific (NZ)

1990: Kingston Rule (USA)

1991: Let's Elope (NZ)

1992: Subzero (AUS)

1993: Vintage Crop (IRE)

1994: Jeune (GB)

1995: Doriemus (NZ)

1996: Saintly (AUS)

1997: Might And Power (NZ)

1998: Jezabeel (NZ)

1999: Rogan Josh (AUS)

2000: Brew (NZ)

2001: Ethereal (NZ)

2002: Media Puzzle (USA)

2003: Makybe Diva (GB)

2004: Makybe Diva (GB)

2005: Makybe Diva (GB)

2006: Delta Blues (JPN)

2007: Efficient (NZ)

2008: Viewed (AUS)

2009: Shocking (AUS)

2010: Americain (USA)

2011: Dunaden (FRA)

2012: Green Moon (IRE)

2013: Fiorente (IRE)

2014: Protectionist (GER)






Posted By: Rosscoe
Date Posted: 01 Oct 2015 at 10:24pm
[QUOTE=Tlazolteotl]1 Pedigree

 I am going to rule out pedigree as a primary reason because there are enough Aus bred horses with impeccable staying pedigrees produced every season to get quality stayers, if pedigee was a guarantee of performance.

2 Training

I am going to rule out training as a primary reason because Australian trainers often get good results with the foreign bred, pre-raced horses they buy.

So it's got be something that goes on between the moment a horse is born to the moment it arrives in Australia as a mature horse that has had some racing in Europe. What is it?
[/QUOTE)

1.Not so sure you can rule out pedigree. Australia's Stamina sources are very different to others being offered o/s. Have a look at Japan - "Deep Impact" as an example. We certainly don't have access to him in OZ.

2. The Foreign bred horses that come to OZ, are mostly proven with ability & scope to improve under our conditions. They are selected & scrutinised by those with a keen eye and are bought to develop under our racing programs.

I believe in order for us to challenge the major titles for stamina racing here, we need to have access to the very bloodlines offering this. One was noted above but there are plenty of others. We also need to take the focus away from 2/3 yr old races where the money is currently and change our programming to favour horses with stamina capabilities. More prize money and incentives are required for this to happen. At present this does not exist!

Patience, bloodlines, patience, bloodlines are the key ingredients + being able to train a stayer adequately ...

Training stayers is complex and our techniques are so different to those used o/s. Bart was the "King" here. I'm hoping he shared a few of his thoughts with others so that we can be a force again one day with our stayers. At present that is very unlikely with the way our industry is run! We need to take away the emphasis from sprints to more stamina type races.

Our stallions as a whole here are built on speed and focused mainly to inject an early return ($$$) into the trainer/owner's arm!!

I am quite excited with So You Think here. Hopefully his progeny will be given time to step up to the stamina races on offer. But more needs to be done with improvements for incentives & programming to make this happen ...




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Current Stable - Soul Star & Adivinar + Lady Vega


Posted By: Gay3
Date Posted: 02 Oct 2015 at 4:49pm
This article probably bears out Barts' training of potential stayers from an early age i.e. he taught them to settle/relax 1st & foremost.

Distance preferences – more to do with mentality than physiology

October 1, 2015
http://www.theracingapp.co.uk/tag/equinome-project/" rel="nofollow - Equinome Project

While analysing the performance of the Race Modlr computer model in different types of races, something that became apparent was the fact that the model’s analysis of horse’s distance preferences was adding virtually nothing to the accuracy of its race predictions. This raised the question, why?

That doyen of thoroughbred breeding Federico Tessio staunchly believed that good horses were fast horses and that a fast horse would beat a slow one whatever the distance. Our mathematical model of how horses fatigue in relation to their ability, based on treadmill research into their physiology, largely supports this. It suggests that Frankel was physiologically capable of winning a July Cup over 6f or one of the Cup races over 2m. Race Modlr’s computerised handicap rated Frankel a 145 over 1m and throwing that into the aforementioned mathematical model suggests he’d have been a high 120’s sprinter or stayer.

It infers that distance is much less of a factor in determining the outcome of races than pundits frequently make out. The reason for this is likely to be that the range of distances over which horses race is actually very compact when compared with humans. In human terms a sprint is 100m to 200m, a middle-distance race 800m to 1500m and a staying race 5000m up to 26 miles. Physiologically these require very different body compositions, sprinting making use almost entirely of fast twitch muscle and anaerobic respiration (energy production without oxygen), staying using lots of slow twitch muscle and being almost entirely aerobic (energy production requiring oxygen).

If we compare how slow humans go at the shorter end of middle-distance races i.e. 800m with how fast they go in sprints and compare that with how fast a horse can run and how fast it actually runs over the various race distances horses contest, we quickly see that physiologically the extremes of horse race distance are not that different. We know a human flat-out can manage 100m in 9.5s. The average speed for the 400m world record is 16% slower than at 100m and at 800m 32% slower. Plotting this graphically, we get a curve looking like this:

http://www.theracingapp.co.uk/blog/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/Screen-Shot-2015-09-29-at-13.43.58.png" rel="nofollow">Screen Shot 2015-09-29 at 13.43.58

We also know that a racehorse flat-out could manage a furlong in about 10s. The average speed over 5f is 15% slower than this, but at 8f it is only 22% slower, at 12f only 25% slower and at 2m only 29% slower. If we use the equation that defines the curve seen on the chart to work out what that means those race distances equate to in human terms we find the following:

5f = 300m

8f = 415m

12f = 476m

16f = 560m

Even the 3m 2f Cheltenham Gold Cup is only roughly equivalent to a human 1500m race, albeit a steeple chase.

Excluding Usain Bolt, who is something of a freak, were there a 300m world championship for humans then the 200m champion would probably be favourite. Over any of the other distances mentioned, 415m, 476m or 560m then the world 400m champion would probably be favourite. What this suggests is that in reality only two horse types are required on the flat, sprinters and non-sprinters because apart from 5f and 6f the physiological requirement of all the other distances is much the same. The ability of a 7f horse to stay 1m 4f is more about its mental make-up than its physiological make-up, since provided it settles then physiologically it will stay.

Interestingly, what this confirms is that by accident or design the evolution of the the English Triple Crown which tested a horse’s speed over 1m and its ability to settle over 1m6f was in all likelihood a truer test of the racehorse than the current focus on racing between 1m and 1m2f. Today’s approach simply repetitively testing the same thing.

Our approach to predicting distance preferences in Race Modlr has revolved around retro-engineering the work conducted on the equinome project where horses have been identified with three genetic variations for distance preference. The equinome project confirmed the presence of these genotypes by looking at the best distance of horses exhibiting them. Conversely, since we know the best distance of each horse from our computerised ratings we can predict the probability of each sire and dam being of a given genotype, and consequently the probability of their progeny being of a given genotype. We can then predict the probability of any given distance being a horse’s best.

Testing the accuracy of these predictions against all horses aged three-years-old and upwards that have raced on the flat in 2015, we found a strong relationship between the average observed best distance of a group of horses and their predicted best distance. Unfortunately, accurately predicting individual horses to within one furlong seems almost impossible with a success rate of about one in six. What holds much more statistical validity is separating the sprinters from the non-sprinters. Of horses with a predicted best distance of less than 1m, 70% produced their best form over 7f or less. The one horse prominent in the betting for next year’s 2,000 Guineas this pertains to is of course Shalaa.

Screen Shot 2015-09-29 at 13.40.59

At the other end of this research is Gleneagles. Our model actually considers him to have more potential to stay than Jack Hobbs or the 2-y-o Deauville, second favourite for next year’s Derby. Given that Gleneagles always seem to settle beautifully, you have to wonder what might have been over further.






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Wisdom has been chasing me but I've always outrun it!


Posted By: niki
Date Posted: 02 Oct 2015 at 9:12pm
Originally posted by whitt0 whitt0 wrote:

Going to change guys.  We have a much greater bench of stamina in the stallion ranks over the last couple of years.

Domestically wit the likes of Dalakhani, Fiorente, Americain and all the kiwis as well like Reliable Man, Savabeel etc.


Excuse me for the novice question Embarrassed >
would Glass Harmonium be regarded as a good source of stamina, to breed a stayer?


Posted By: whitt0
Date Posted: 02 Oct 2015 at 9:29pm
Yes niki - nice dose of Grey Sovereign


Posted By: furious
Date Posted: 03 Oct 2015 at 5:46pm
And Nikki Grey sovereign has Juliet blood through the sire of her dam.  His sire Achtoi is out of an Australian bred mare Achray by Martini Henry a grandson of Juliet.

Might also give mention to Complacent and Hauraki the AUS two that just fought out the Craven Plate.  The winner from the Sadler's Wells line out of a Quest for Fame (English Derby) mare from a Kaoru Star mare with the next dam by Lunchtime.  So plenty of sprinting blood also there.  He decends from the dam of Ajax same as Golden Slipper winner Crystal Lily.

Hauraki is from the Sir Tristram/Zabeel sireline (by Reset who was out of a mare by Zeditave) from a Dehere mare.  This is the same family (different branch to Eight Carat) as Octagonal and co.  So even speed in the female line also.  Further back you find the flying filly Mumtaz Mahal.

So once again the Australian middle distance stayers may not be in the Metropolitan but have killed the rest of those imports today.


Posted By: djebel
Date Posted: 04 Oct 2015 at 12:12am
What do our Oaks winners do at stud ?


CALLIOPE (AUS)
Bay filly 2013 
Exceed and Excel
Bay 2000
Danehill
Bay 1986
Danzig
Bay 1977
Northern Dancer
Bay 1961
Nearctic
Natalma
1954
1957
14-c
2-d
Pas de Nom
Bay or brown 1968
Admiral's Voyage
Petitioner
1959
1952
4-n
7-a
Razyana
Bay 1981
His Majesty
Bay 1968
Ribot
Flower Bowl
1952
1952
4-l
4-d
Spring Adieu
Bay 1974
Buckpasser
Natalma
1963
1957
1-s
2-d
Patrona
Chestnut 1994
Lomond
Bay 1980
Northern Dancer
Bay 1961
Nearctic
Natalma
1954
1957
14-c
2-d
My Charmer
Bay 1969
Poker
Fair Charmer
1963
1959
1-s
13-c
Gladiolus
Chestnut 1974
Watch Your Step
Chestnut 1956
Citation
Stepwisely
1945
1941
3-l
6-a
Back Britches
Chestnut 1964
Carry Back
Foxbritches
1958
1958
24>
23-b
Melpomene
Chestnut 2005
Elusive Quality
Bay 1993
Gone West
Bay 1984
Mr Prospector
Bay 1970
Raise a Native
Gold Digger
1961
1962
8-f
13-c
Secrettame
Chestnut 1978
Secretariat
Tamerett
1970
1962
2-s
2-f
Touch of Greatness
Bay 1986
Hero's Honor
Bay 1980
Northern Dancer
Glowing Tribute
1961
1973
2-d
1-s
Ivory Wand
Bay 1973
Sir Ivor
Natashka
1965
1963
8-g
13-c
Bulla Borghese
Chestnut 1999
Belong to Me
Bay or brown 1989
Danzig
Bay 1977
Northern Dancer
Pas de Nom
1961
1968
2-d
7-a
Belonging
Bay 1979
Exclusive Native
Straight Deal
1965
1962
10-a
1-s
Fionnay
Chestnut 1993
Crested Wave
Bay or brown 1976
Crozier
Fading Wave
1958
1964
23-b
20-c
Aminona
Chestnut 1973
Oakville
Lady Volitime
1958
1962
7>
2-j
 Ancestor duplications:Northern Dancer4m,4m x 5m,5m Natalma5m,5f,5m x Danzig3m x 4m


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reductio ad absurdum


Posted By: Gay3
Date Posted: 05 Oct 2015 at 9:10am
Golden Horn, record breaking 2yo wins the Arc at 4, by Cape Cross who we have access to.

Golden Horn, who today added victory in the G1 Prix de l’Arc de Triomphe to his triumphs in this year’s Derby, Eclipse and Irish Champion Stakes, and the highest-rated turf horse in the world, will become a Darley stallion in 2016 and will stand at Dalham Hall Stud. A fee has yet to be announced.

Anthony Oppenheimer’s homebred son of Cape Cross made the perfect start to his racing career, setting a juvenile course record at Nottingham when breaking his maiden on his only start at two.

Golden Horn put up another record-breaking performance first-time-out at three in the Listed Feilden Stakes at Newmarket, knocking some three seconds off the previous Stakes record. He then stormed into the Derby reckoning after an impressive win over subsequent Irish Derby victor Jack Hobbs in the G2 Dante Stakes at York, drawing almost three lengths clear.

His victory in the highest-profile Derby trial prompted Mr Oppenheimer to supplement him for the Epsom Classic, and his faith was rewarded in scintillating fashion as Golden Horn powered home to take the race by three-and-a-half lengths in the third-fastest time ever, Jack Hobbs again the runner-up. The victory earned Golden Horn a Timeform rating of 130, fully 4lbs ahead of Cape Cross’s first Derby winner Sea The Stars after his own brilliant win in the race.

Dropped back to ten furlongs for his next start in the G1 Eclipse, Golden Horn showed that he could also master his older rivals as he made all and saw off a strong challenge from multiple G1 winner The Grey Gatsby, once again winning by three-and-a-half lengths.

After a narrow second on rain-softened ground in the G1 Juddmonte International at York, he bounced back to his brilliant best in the G1 Irish Champion Stakes at Leopardstown last month.

Golden Horn’s sire Cape Cross has a long connection with Epsom’s greatest races: besides his two Derby-winning sons, he has also sired Oaks winner Ouija Board, herself the dam of Derby winner Australia. Out of Fleche d’Or, a half-sister to G1 Coronation Stakes heroine Rebecca Sharp, Golden Horn is from a family that has been nurtured by the Oppenheimer family at their Hascombe And Valiant Stud for half a century.

Sam Bullard, Director of Stallions, said: “It is wonderful that Darley has bought into this great Champion and we are thrilled that Mr Oppenheimer has decided that Dalham Hall Stud is where Golden Horn will get the best opportunity of becoming the great stallion we believe he can be.”




-------------
Wisdom has been chasing me but I've always outrun it!


Posted By: furious
Date Posted: 05 Oct 2015 at 1:04pm
What do our Oaks winners do at stud ?

Pretty good actually - 

Denise's Joy (VRC Oaks) has set up a dynasty including -
Tuesday Joy (Chipping Norton S, Rawson S, Coolmore Classic, The Tancred S, wakeful S, Stock S, Apollo S & 2nd VRC Oaks)
More Joyous (Doncaster H, Queen Elizabeth S, Futurity S, Queen of the Turf S (twice), George Main S, Toorak H, Flight S etc)
Sunday Joy (AJC Oaks, Stocks S & 3rd Rosehill Guineas etc)
Thorn Park (G1 winner & pretty special sire)
Fenway (Storm Queen S, Stock S & 2nd Australasian Oaks G1)
Joie Denise (Queensland Oaks)
Miss Danehill (Queensland Oaks)
Pentastic (Craiglee S, P J O'Shea S & 2nd Queen Elizabeth S, LKS Mackinnon S, Brisbane Cup, Doomben Cup, Canterbury Guineas, 3rd AJC Derby, VRC Derby ect)
Euphoria (Champagne S & 3rd Storm Queen S)
Sterling City (Golden Shaheen etc)
Bentley Biscuit (T J Smith S, BTC Cup, All Aged S & 3rd Doncaster H etc)
Joie de Grise (South African Fillies Sprint etc)
Arlington Road (All Aged S)

or we have Circles of Gold (AJC Oaks) with -
Elvstroem (Caulfield Cup, Dubai Duty Free, VRC Derby, Underwood S, C F Orr S & 4th Melbourne Cup etc & sire of stayers)
Haradasun (Doncaster H, George Ryder S, Queen Anne S & 3rd W S Cox Plate etc)
Hveger (2nd SA Oaks, 3rd Australasian Oaks)
Highland Reel (Secretariat S, Vintage S, 2nd Prix du Jockey Clbu etc)

Triscay -
La Baraka (Galaxy S)
Tsuimai (Gloaming S & 3rd Epsom H, Spring Champion S)

Miss Finland has Stay With Me

Savannah Success (AUS) (NZ Oaks & Ansett Australia S) gave us 
Savabeel (WS Cox Plate, Spring Champion S & 2nd VRC Derby etc) who has done pretty good at stud withstayers
Black Heart Bart (Pinjarra Classic, Bunbury S)
Rebelson (Northam Cup)

You have families or dams of Oaks winners like Humour who still crops up in modern staying pedigrees many times through Pins.  Also Zarita (SA Derby, Australasian Oaks, Wakeful S etc), Joy and Fun (Meydan Al Quoz Sprint, Chairman's Sprint Prize in HK etc)

Kenbelle (AJC Oaks) has given up Boban  (Epsom H), Emirate S, Chipping Norton S, Doomben 10,000)



Posted By: djebel
Date Posted: 06 Oct 2015 at 6:43pm
Is Volkstok'N'Barrell a slow stayer ?

He has had an idiotic campaign and now the trainer is iffy about the Caulfield Cup.




-------------
reductio ad absurdum


Posted By: Tlazolteotl
Date Posted: 06 Oct 2015 at 6:45pm
Originally posted by djebel djebel wrote:

Is Volkstok'N'Barrell a slow stayer ?

He has had an idiotic campaign and now the trainer is iffy about the Caulfield Cup.



Has Criterion had the best Cox Plate prep?


Posted By: djebel
Date Posted: 06 Oct 2015 at 6:57pm
Arod, Highland Reel, Criterion, Winx ( She looks freakish ) Kermadec have all had good preps.




-------------
reductio ad absurdum


Posted By: Geraldo
Date Posted: 06 Oct 2015 at 7:15pm
Criterion been relaxing in the British sunshine.

 LOL




-------------
TBV - where it is the Silly Season all year round.


Posted By: whobareswins
Date Posted: 13 Oct 2015 at 11:16am
Bart speculated Thoroughbred yearlings confined to stalls in Australia were disadvantaged when compared with yearlings raised on lush green hill country in NZ which is why he preferred Kiwi-breds. He also alluded to the fact the majority of Kiwi breeders are fiercely loyal and proud fourth or fifth generation hobby breeders with access to non-fashionable but proven stamina-impregnated bloodlines


Posted By: Tlazolteotl
Date Posted: 13 Oct 2015 at 11:20am
Originally posted by whobareswins whobareswins wrote:

Bart speculated Thoroughbred yearlings confined to stalls in Australia were disadvantaged when compared with yearlings raised on lush green hill country in NZ which is why he preferred Kiwi-breds. He also alluded to the fact the majority of Kiwi breeders are fiercely loyal and proud fourth or fifth generation hobby breeders with access to non-fashionable but proven stamina-impregnated bloodlines

Then why are NZ bred stayers slow?


Posted By: Gee Gee
Date Posted: 13 Oct 2015 at 1:03pm
WSTB, Preferment are NZ bred, They're not slow. They'll beat home a few overseas stayers in the MC


Posted By: djebel
Date Posted: 13 Oct 2015 at 1:27pm
Preferment so far has 5600m of racing under his belt this spring.

The Cox Plate will make it 7640m.

I can see Waller winning the big 3 this year.

-------------
reductio ad absurdum


Posted By: whobareswins
Date Posted: 13 Oct 2015 at 2:56pm
It depends if you consider Veandercross, Brew, Kiwi, Jezabeel, Doriemus, El Segundo, Savabeel, Nom de Jeu, Descarado, Master O'Reilly, Railings, Bonecrusher, Horlicks, Sunline, Might and Power, Octagonal, Efficient, Ethereal, Ocean Park, Lion Tamer, Vengeance of Rain, It’s A Dundeel, Super Impose, So You Think, Rough Habit, Let’s Elope and Poetic Prince slow, to name a few? And either of the Kiwi-breds in the Melbourne Cup, Preferment, Who Shot The Barman and Criterion are capable of winning including Mongolian Khan, Rising Romance, Lucina Valentina and Volkstok’nbarrel in the Caulfield Cup and Kermadec in the Cox Plate. Gai Waterhouse surmised a lot of NZ racehorses don't adapt to Australian conditions unaccustomed to the extreme heat, solitary confinement and synthetic surfaces



Posted By: Lord Hybrow
Date Posted: 13 Oct 2015 at 5:00pm

Correct me if I'm wrong with wasn't MONGOLIAN KHAN bred is Tasmania??   Certainly wouldn't classify him as a slow stayer!!

I can't see the Euro-breds featuring this year:

CC - Mongolian Khan
CP - Criterion
MC - Preferment

Would be great to see a clean sweep for the Australasian-breds in the big 3 races.


Posted By: subastral
Date Posted: 13 Oct 2015 at 5:03pm
Originally posted by Geraldo Geraldo wrote:

Criterion been relaxing in the British sunshine.

 LOL


 
 
We had a pretty long and cold winter in Melbourne. It's not as flippant as it sounds. David Hayes has suggested as much.


Posted By: Gee Gee
Date Posted: 13 Oct 2015 at 7:11pm
Originally posted by Lord Hybrow Lord Hybrow wrote:


Correct me if I'm wrong with wasn't MONGOLIAN KHAN bred is Tasmania??   Certainly wouldn't classify him as a slow stayer!!

I can't see the Euro-breds featuring this year:

CC - Mongolian Khan
CP - Criterion
MC - Preferment

Would be great to see a clean sweep for the Australasian-breds in the big 3 races.



yep Mongo is a Tassie lad.

I like your treble 210/1


Posted By: furious
Date Posted: 14 Oct 2015 at 9:16am
Just as an aside.  

Preferment is a son of Zabeel which we all see as staying blood although as a racehorse he was a miler.  Then if you look at the Australian bred dam you find the sires Flying Spur (Golden Slipper), Canny Lad (Golden Slipper), Beau Sovereign (Caulfield Guineas by a staying sorce in Sovereign Edition), Aurealis (minnor sprint SW by Kaoru Star), King of Babylon (sprinter/miler) etc.  You have to go back 11 generations to find Diploma the dam of Moorilla (Sydney Cup) and Lady Medallist (Caulfield Cup).

Criterion is a son of Sebring (Golden Slipper) from Mica's Pride (Research S G3 1200m).  Sebring although never winning past 1400m has shown ability to get middle distance stayers.

Mongolian Khan is by Holy Roman Emperor who once again was a sprinter/miler who stood at Coolmore.  While his dam Centafit is a daughter of Centaine (Australian bred sprinter/miler) he was by Century (sprinter/miler but sire of a very good stayer in  Double Century).  Centaine is out of a Vain (Golden Slipper) mare from a Todman (Golden Slipper) mare but comes from the the female line of a Melbourne Cup winner.

Speed underlined (sometimes very minutely) by stamina.




Posted By: niki
Date Posted: 15 Oct 2015 at 12:59am
Very interesting analysis / discussion
thank you Beer


Posted By: patsy fagan
Date Posted: 15 Oct 2015 at 1:30am
The issue is guys this spring you will be taking on 1% of European G1 stayers on home soil and theres a chance again that all 3 races could go overseas..

Says it all.


Posted By: djebel
Date Posted: 15 Oct 2015 at 1:00pm
How fast should this horse be ?

WINDFOLA (AUS)Chestnut colt 2012 
Lope de Vega
Chestnut 2007
Shamardal
Bay 2002
Giant's Causeway
Chestnut 1997
Storm Cat
Bay or brown 1983
Storm Bird
Terlingua
1978
1976
4-j
8-c
Mariah's Storm
Bay 1991
Rahy
Immense
1985
1979
12-c
11>
Helsinki
Bay 1993
Machiavellian
Bay or brown 1987
Mr Prospector
Coup de Folie
1970
1982
13-c
2-d
Helen Street
Bay 1982
Troy
Waterway
1976
1976
1-b
1-l
Lady Vettori
Bay 1997
Vettori
Bay 1992
Machiavellian
Bay or brown 1987
Mr Prospector
Coup de Folie
1970
1982
13-c
2-d
Air Distingue
Bay 1980
Sir Ivor
Euryanthe
1965
1975
8-g
5-g
Lady Golconda
Chestnut 1992
Kendor
Grey 1986
Kenmare
Belle Mecene
1975
1982
1-m
4-n
Lady Sharp
Chestnut 1981
Sharpman
Golondrina
1976
1970
1-l
11-d
Croatian Storm
Bay or brown 1994
Last Tycoon
Bay or brown 1983
Try My Best
Bay 1975
Northern Dancer
Bay 1961
Nearctic
Natalma
1954
1957
14-c
2-d
Sex Appeal
Chestnut 1970
Buckpasser
Best in Show
1963
1965
1-s
8-f
Mill Princess
Bay 1977
Mill Reef
Bay 1968
Never Bend
Milan Mill
1960
1962
19-b
22-d
Irish Lass
Bay 1962
Sayajirao
Scollata
1944
1952
3-n
8-c
Electrique
Chestnut 1988
Zephyr Zip
Bay 1976
Zephyr Bay
Brown 1970
Biscay
Heavenly Wind
1965
1958
2-o
22-b
Corso
Bay 1971
Battle-Waggon
Milk Biscuit
1962
1966
3-o
24>
Girlie Sharpe
Chestnut 1982
Lunchtime
Chestnut 1970
Silly Season
Great Occasion
1962
1965
1-g
7-f
Only Dreams
Chestnut 1974
Todman
Sweet Reproach
1954
1969
1-u
2-n
 Ancestor duplications:Machiavellian4f,4m x


-------------
reductio ad absurdum


Posted By: Tlazolteotl
Date Posted: 15 Oct 2015 at 1:17pm
We should have another topic titled classically bred staying blueblood (sire and dam) aussie slowcoach running around midweek.


Posted By: niki
Date Posted: 15 Oct 2015 at 1:17pm
Love the dam name, Croatian Storm Big smile

(no idea how fast it should be Embarrassed but it daoes makes me consider if it is possible to breed a 1994 broodmare for a breed to racer ...)

<... based on doseage horse should have slight propensity for speed with stamina ... ? >




Posted By: furious
Date Posted: 16 Oct 2015 at 12:58pm
This is a funny thing.  We all complain about how slow our stayers.  But why?

Australia and New Zealand were built originally on staying blood.  The greats of the early turf were winners of a wide range of distances often from 5f to 24f or more.  I suppose the most recent champion of that type was Kingston Town.

But today we seem to have more restricted types.  Sprinters, Sprinter/milers,  miler to 2400m, 2000m to 3200m.  Maybe the class of each group is too good to have one that goes the full range.  

So where are our stayers when if you look at the world bloodlines without Australian and New Zealand blood the top lines would look completely different.

The truth is there isn't a horse going around in the Melbourne Cup this year without a Melbourne Cup, Sydney Cup, AJC Derby, VRC Derby, CJC Derby, W S Cox Plate, Caulfield Cup, Launceston Cup, Adelaide Cup etc winner (or sire of a winner) in its pedigree.  That is because Carbine, Trenton, Darebin, Achray, Sir Modred, Southern Cross, Pago Pago, Noholme etc have all ventured out into the world and made their mark.

The first three Carbine (Melbourne Cup, Sydney Cup (twice), Champion S (twice) and a Champion), Trenton (3rd & 2nd Melbourne Cup and winner from 5f to 20f in stakes events and sire of a Melbourne Cup winner in Auraria and a Champion in Wakeful) and Darebin (Sydney Cup, VRC Derby) pretty well have the world's pedigrees sewn up.

I haven't a clue which horse this year will have the most Carbine blood but Hokko Brave has no less that 37 lines.  That Carbine's son Spearmint won a Epsom Derby certainly helped his blood to flourish on the world scene but Carbine's daughters also have lines alive today.  Miss Cunning figures in Protectinist's pedigree.  Chute crops up in Snow Sky through Ribot's pedigree.  So does Queen Carbine this time through the sire Nayef's pedigree.

Ivanhowe has another one in Cassinia through Blushing Groom's pedigree but also has the above two also.  

While Hokko Brave brings in Stop Her through Sakura Shori.  Hokko Brave probably takes to cake for Australasian stayers in his pedigree with Carbine, Trenton, Darebin, Southern Cross (Launceston Cup), Martini-Henry (Melbourne Cup), Chester (Melbourne Cup), Yattendon (Sydney Cup), Heroic (AJC Derby, WS Cox Plate), Maltster (2nd Melbourne Cup, AJC Derby, VRC Derby), Goldsbrough (3rd Melbourne Cup), Talking (AJC & VRC Derby), Nordenfeldt (AJC & VRC Derby), Angler (VRC Derby), Wallace (champion son of Carbine in Australia and wonderful source of stamina), Robinson Crusoe (AJC Derby), The Barb (First Australia Champion Melbourne cup), Fireworks) AJC Derby, VRC derby, Launceston Cup) about covers them.

So if the worlds staying lines have those lines of Australasian staying blood there must be some of the same still here on our home paddocks.  




Posted By: djebel
Date Posted: 16 Oct 2015 at 3:45pm
As I have said and T said in the opening post it is not pedigree it is training that is stopping our stayers being outstanding stayers. From the time they are born to the time they are 4 or 5 something is going wrong.

Our middle distant and staying horses should be every bit as good as the European and Japanese horses.

This bloke in the first at Cranbourne tonight, What is he doing over 1000m ?

 ECLAIR SHADOW (NZ)Grey colt 2012 
Guillotine
Grey 2004
Montjeu
Bay 1996
Sadler's Wells
Bay 1981
Northern Dancer
Bay 1961
Nearctic
Natalma
1954
1957
14-c
2-d
Fairy Bridge
Bay 1975
Bold Reason
Special
1968
1969
19-b
5-h
Floripedes
Bay 1985
Top Ville
Bay 1976
High Top
Sega Ville
1969
1968
11-a
8-i
Toute Cy
Bay 1979
Tennyson
Adele Toumignon
1970
1971
1-t
1-u
Refused the Dance
Grey 1996
Defensive Play
Bay 1987
Fappiano
Bay 1977
Mr Prospector
Killaloe
1970
1970
13-c
16-a
Safe Play
Bay 1978
Sham
Bori
1970
1972
9-h
2-i
Florida Jig
Roan 1979
Jig Time
Grey 1965
Native Dancer
Kanace
1950
1945
5-f
14-a
Misfesto
Bay or brown 1971
Manifesto
Miskodeed
1964
1961
8-g
9-h
Dosh
Bay 2003
Danske
Bay 1995
Danehill
Bay 1986
Danzig
Bay 1977
Northern Dancer
Pas de Nom
1961
1968
2-d
7-a
Razyana
Bay 1981
His Majesty
Spring Adieu
1968
1974
4-d
2-d
Our Tristalight
Grey 1989
Sir Tristram
Bay 1971
Sir Ivor
Isolt
1965
1961
8-g
6-e
Tudor Light
Grey 1972
All A'Light
Elabama
1963
1965
1-s
5-d
Heaps
Bay 1990
Fiesta Star
Chestnut 1979
Luskin Star
Chestnut 1974
Kaoru Star
Promising
1965
1968
31>
2-e
Very Merry
Chestnut 1963
Wilkes
Merry Polly
1952
1956
13-c
1-n
Too Much
Bay 1976
Diplomatic Agent
Chestnut 1968
Envoy
Royal Rhyme
1962
1960
2-f
19>
Plenty
Bay 1969
Sucaryl
Money
1964
1959
2-o
22-b
 Ancestor duplications:Northern Dancer4m x 5m


-------------
reductio ad absurdum


Posted By: djebel
Date Posted: 16 Oct 2015 at 3:48pm

KILTS (AUS)
Bay filly 2012 
Super Saver
Bay 2007
Maria's Mon
Grey 1993
Wavering Monarch
Bay 1979
Majestic Light
Bay 1973
Majestic Prince
Irradiate
1966
1966
4-d
8-c
Uncommitted
Bay 1974
Buckpasser
Lady Be Good
1963
1956
1-s
8-h
Carlotta Maria
Grey 1984
Caro
Grey 1967
Fortino
Chambord
1959
1955
4-r
3-o
Water Malone
Grey 1974
Naskra
Gray Matter
1967
1966
3-e
1-l
Supercharger
Bay 1995
A P Indy
Bay or brown 1989
Seattle Slew
Bay or brown 1974
Bold Reasoning
My Charmer
1968
1969
1-k
13-c
Weekend Surprise
Bay 1980
Secretariat
Lassie Dear
1970
1974
2-s
3-l
Get Lucky
Bay 1988
Mr Prospector
Bay 1970
Raise a Native
Gold Digger
1961
1962
8-f
13-c
Dance Number
Bay 1979
Northern Dancer
Numbered Account
1961
1969
2-d
1-s
Pleats
Bay 2006
Green Desert
Bay 1983
Danzig
Bay 1977
Northern Dancer
Bay 1961
Nearctic
Natalma
1954
1957
14-c
2-d
Pas de Nom
Bay or brown 1968
Admiral's Voyage
Petitioner
1959
1952
4-n
7-a
Foreign Courier
Bay 1979
Sir Ivor
Bay 1965
Sir Gaylord
Attica
1959
1953
2-s
8-g
Courtly Dee
Bay or brown 1968
Never Bend
Tulle
1960
1950
19-b
A4
Lady Bex
Bay 2001
Sadler's Wells
Bay 1981
Northern Dancer
Bay 1961
Nearctic
Natalma
1954
1957
14-c
2-d
Fairy Bridge
Bay 1975
Bold Reason
Special
1968
1969
19-b
5-h
Bex
Chestnut 1986
Explodent
Bay 1969
Nearctic
Venomous
1954
1953
14-c
14-e
Bay Street
Bay 1977
Grundy
Gliding
1972
1972
8-k
4-k
 Ancestor duplications:Northern Dancer5f x 4m,4m Nearcticx 5m,5m,5m


-------------
reductio ad absurdum


Posted By: djebel
Date Posted: 17 Oct 2015 at 12:48pm
Interesting campaign heading to the Victoria Derby.

KIA ORA KOUTOU (AUS)Bay gelding 2012 
Blackfriars
Bay 1996
Danehill
Bay 1986
Danzig
Bay 1977
Northern Dancer
Bay 1961
Nearctic
Natalma
1954
1957
14-c
2-d
Pas de Nom
Bay or brown 1968
Admiral's Voyage
Petitioner
1959
1952
4-n
7-a
Razyana
Bay 1981
His Majesty
Bay 1968
Ribot
Flower Bowl
1952
1952
4-l
4-d
Spring Adieu
Bay 1974
Buckpasser
Natalma
1963
1957
1-s
2-d
Kensington Gardens
Brown 1986
Grosvenor
Bay 1979
Sir Tristram
Bay 1971
Sir Ivor
Isolt
1965
1961
8-g
6-e
My Tricia
Brown 1974
Hermes
Gay Poss
1963
1966
11-d
8>
Tilly Foster
Bay 1981
Vice Regal
Brown 1973
Bismark
Kind Regards
1967
1966
13-c
3-e
Gentle Thoughts
Bay 1971
Ardistaan
Watch It
1965
1961
9-c
16>
Kia Ora Miss
Bay 2002
Jeune
Chestnut 1989
Kalaglow
Grey 1978
Kalamoun
Grey 1970
Zeddaan
Khairunissa
1965
1960
11-g
9-c
Rossitor
Chestnut 1970
Pall Mall
Sonia
1955
1965
7-d
2-i
Youthful
Bay or brown 1980
Green Dancer
Bay 1972
Nijinsky
Green Valley
1967
1967
8-f
16-c
First Bloom
Bay 1969
Primera
Flower Dance
1954
1963
4-c
19-c
Precious Stone
Bay 1993
At Talaq
Bay 1981
Roberto
Bay 1969
Hail to Reason
Bramalea
1958
1959
4-n
12-c
My Nord
Bay 1973
Vent du Nord
My Alison
1965
1954
4-f
1-c
Kia Ora Gem
Chestnut 1988
Marscay
Chestnut 1979
Biscay
Heart of Market
1965
1967
2-o
4-m
Heir's Gem
Chestnut 1978
Heir Presumptive
Decoy Girl
1971
1973
4-c
22-d
 Ancestor duplications:Natalma5m,5f x


-------------
reductio ad absurdum


Posted By: furious
Date Posted: 17 Oct 2015 at 4:25pm
Wonderful pedigree for a stayer.  Decoy Girl produced Red Anchor.  The speed of Marscay the At Talaq (Melbourne Cup) Jeune (Melbourne Cup) and Black Friars (VRC Derby).  This is the female family of Mill Reef and Pipe of Peace an outstanding sire back in the 1950-60's.


Posted By: furious
Date Posted: 17 Oct 2015 at 7:00pm
AUS first past the post.  Mind you the GB and GER and JPN all ran well.


Posted By: djebel
Date Posted: 17 Oct 2015 at 7:23pm
Originally posted by furious furious wrote:

AUS first past the post.  Mind you the GB and GER and JPN all ran well.

Mongolian Khan would be one of our very best gallopers where as the imports are second and 3rd stringers in their respective countries.


-------------
reductio ad absurdum


Posted By: James Bond Esq
Date Posted: 17 Oct 2015 at 7:35pm
Thank Goodness for Tassie.


Posted By: MichaelM
Date Posted: 17 Oct 2015 at 8:12pm
Originally posted by djebel djebel wrote:

Originally posted by furious furious wrote:

AUS first past the post.  Mind you the GB and GER and JPN all ran well.

Mongolian Khan would be one of our very best gallopers where as the imports are second and 3rd stringers in their respective countries.

You'd consider 2nd in one of Japan's very best races a '2nd stringer or 3rd stringer'?


Posted By: djebel
Date Posted: 17 Oct 2015 at 8:24pm
Originally posted by MichaelM MichaelM wrote:

Originally posted by djebel djebel wrote:

Originally posted by furious furious wrote:

AUS first past the post.  Mind you the GB and GER and JPN all ran well.

Mongolian Khan would be one of our very best gallopers where as the imports are second and 3rd stringers in their respective countries.

You'd consider 2nd in one of Japan's very best races a '2nd stringer or 3rd stringer'?

Yes I would.

Like Europe, Japans best races are between 2000m and 2400m.

Unlike Europe their best horses do stretch their speed to 3200m and sometimes further but generally their best horses are in the 2000-2400 range and Fame Game at those trips would be in the 2nd and 3rd stringer group.




-------------
reductio ad absurdum


Posted By: djebel
Date Posted: 18 Oct 2015 at 2:24am
FASCINATING ROCK (IRE)Bay colt 2011 
Fastnet Rock
Bay 2001
Danehill
Bay 1986
Danzig
Bay 1977
Northern Dancer
Bay 1961
Nearctic
Natalma
1954
1957
14-c
2-d
Pas de Nom
Bay or brown 1968
Admiral's Voyage
Petitioner
1959
1952
4-n
7-a
Razyana
Bay 1981
His Majesty
Bay 1968
Ribot
Flower Bowl
1952
1952
4-l
4-d
Spring Adieu
Bay 1974
Buckpasser
Natalma
1963
1957
1-s
2-d
Piccadilly Circus
Bay 1995
Royal Academy
Bay 1987
Nijinsky
Bay 1967
Northern Dancer
Flaming Page
1961
1959
2-d
8-f
Crimson Saint
Chestnut 1969
Crimson Satan
Bolero Rose
1959
1958
26>
8-c
Gatana
Bay 1989
Marauding
Bay 1984
Sir Tristram
Biscalowe
1971
1979
6-e
4-i
Twigalae
Bay 1979
Twig Moss
Hondalae
1973
1968
1-k
2-f
Miss Polaris
Bay 2001
Polar Falcon
Brown 1987
Nureyev
Bay 1977
Northern Dancer
Bay 1961
Nearctic
Natalma
1954
1957
14-c
2-d
Special
Bay 1969
Forli
Thong
1963
1964
3-b
5-h
Marie d'Argonne
Chestnut 1981
Jefferson
Chestnut 1967
Charlottesville
Monticella
1957
1955
14-a
1-t
Mohair
Chestnut 1974
Blue Tom
Imberline
1964
1957
1-h
8-c
Sarabah
Bay 1988
Ela-Mana-Mou
Bay 1976
Pitcairn
Bay 1971
Petingo
Border Bounty
1965
1965
22>
7-a
Rose Bertin
Chestnut 1970
High Hat
Wide Awake
1957
1964
2-o
3-g
Be Discreet
Bay 1981
Junius
Bay 1976
Raja Baba
Solid Thought
1968
1957
3-l
3-n
Querida
Bay or brown 1975
Habitat
Principia
1966
1970
4-r
16-a
 Ancestor duplications:Northern Dancer4m,5m x 4m Natalma5m,5f x 5m


-------------
reductio ad absurdum


Posted By: whitt0
Date Posted: 18 Oct 2015 at 7:30am
I am predicting that the overseas horses win nothing this year.

It will be an all Aus/NZ clean sweep for the big 3


Posted By: bradjm
Date Posted: 18 Oct 2015 at 8:04am
Backed mk thought he was the closest to a good thing in the cc I've seen n years.

However from a mc point of view fame game is going to eat them , good late sectionals and he really poweredto the line in the tenno sho


Posted By: djebel
Date Posted: 18 Oct 2015 at 2:40pm
What do you suppose John Sadler is trying to achieve with Mansale ?

MANSALE (AUS)Grey colt 2011 
High Chaparral
Bay 1999
Sadler's Wells
Bay 1981
Northern Dancer
Bay 1961
Nearctic
Brown 1954
Nearco
Lady Angela
1935
1944
4-r
14-c
Natalma
Bay 1957
Native Dancer
Almahmoud
1950
1947
5-f
2-d
Fairy Bridge
Bay 1975
Bold Reason
Bay 1968
Hail to Reason
Lalun
1958
1952
4-n
19-b
Special
Bay 1969
Forli
Thong
1963
1964
3-b
5-h
Kasora
Brown 1993
Darshaan
Brown 1981
Shirley Heights
Bay 1975
Mill Reef
Hardiemma
1968
1969
22-d
1-l
Delsy
Brown 1972
Abdos
Kelty
1959
1965
1-e
13-c
Kozana
Brown 1982
Kris
Chestnut 1976
Sharpen Up
Doubly Sure
1969
1971
5-i
2-o
Koblenza
Brown 1966
Hugh Lupus
Kalimara
1952
1960
19>
1-n
Dynamic Flyer
Grey 1999
Marauding
Bay 1984
Sir Tristram
Bay 1971
Sir Ivor
Bay 1965
Sir Gaylord
Attica
1959
1953
2-s
8-g
Isolt
Bay 1961
Round Table
All My Eye
1954
1954
2-f
6-e
Biscalowe
Chestnut 1979
Biscay
Chestnut 1965
Star Kingdom
Magic Symbol
1946
1956
1-g
2-o
Nunkalowe
Brown 1972
Boysie Boy
San la Salle
1965
1953
2-o
4-i
Bianco Flyer
Grey 1984
Godswalk
Grey 1974
Dancer's Image
Grey 1965
Native Dancer
Noors Image
1950
1953
5-f
4-r
Kate's Intent
Bay 1964
Intentionally
Julie Kate
1956
1957
5-j
2-h
Bianco Lady
Bay 1977
Rangong
Bay 1965
Right Royal
Crepina
1958
1956
3-f
16-d
Marree
Bay 1965
Test Case
Lady Yet
1958
1949
9-c
3-a
 Ancestor duplications:Native Dancer5f x 5m


-------------
reductio ad absurdum


Posted By: Tlazolteotl
Date Posted: 18 Oct 2015 at 4:10pm
Bianco Lady was a strong stayer who won the Perth Cup.


Posted By: Tlazolteotl
Date Posted: 18 Oct 2015 at 4:12pm
Originally posted by Tlazolteotl Tlazolteotl wrote:

Bianco Lady was a strong stayer who won the Perth Cup.

Are you implying there is not enough stamina in that pedigree?


Posted By: furious
Date Posted: 18 Oct 2015 at 6:17pm
No I think he means the horse has only run over 1200 to 1400m.  If trained in England it would maybe come out first over 2000m.


Posted By: Ammy42
Date Posted: 18 Oct 2015 at 6:20pm
Are you arguing with yourself, Tlaz?


Posted By: Jamal
Date Posted: 18 Oct 2015 at 6:32pm
Just out of curiostiy - before Mongholian Khan, who was the last Australian bred horse to win the Caulfield Cup?


-------------
Australian racing is only good up to 1400m in terms of world standards when it comes to depth/quality in numbers


Posted By: Campaspe
Date Posted: 18 Oct 2015 at 6:43pm
Originally posted by Jamal Jamal wrote:

Just out of curiostiy - before Mongholian Khan, who was the last Australian bred horse to win the Caulfield Cup?
 
Fawkner, two years ago.


Posted By: furious
Date Posted: 18 Oct 2015 at 7:15pm
Two years prior we had Southern Speed.  Two years before Viewed.  Then back to 2005 for Railings, 2004 Elvstroem, 2003 Mummify, 2202 Northerly.  Only two New Zealand breds in the same period.


Posted By: Beliskner
Date Posted: 18 Oct 2015 at 7:18pm
Is it just me, or is their a fair few high chap over zabeel mares running around?


Posted By: furious
Date Posted: 18 Oct 2015 at 8:43pm
Maybe too much stamina to stamina.  Must work sometimes but maybe also lots of very slow runners.



Posted By: Geraldo
Date Posted: 19 Oct 2015 at 1:09am
Godswalk was Champion Sprinter up here.



-------------
TBV - where it is the Silly Season all year round.


Posted By: djebel
Date Posted: 19 Oct 2015 at 1:17am
Originally posted by furious furious wrote:

Maybe too much stamina to stamina.  Must work sometimes but maybe also lots of very slow runners.


They are not stamina to stamina are they ?

They are top class to top class.




-------------
reductio ad absurdum


Posted By: furious
Date Posted: 19 Oct 2015 at 8:48am
Not talking about that pedigree.  Zabeel and High Chaparral are both staying sires.  Zabeels can be leggy and light.  High Chaparral fillies have been overlooked due to a light tendency.  So maybe not a good match on types thrown.  On paper good, maybe not so in practice.  No doubt you could get a good one but it might take a number of tries.


Posted By: Beliskner
Date Posted: 19 Oct 2015 at 11:47am
Wasn't there a perception [maybe backed up by stats] that their was a huge difference in performance and potential between High Chaps males and females?

I think it was high chap females were no good compared to the males?


Posted By: furious
Date Posted: 19 Oct 2015 at 12:34pm
Some good ones have emerged.  Fenway for one is a filly bred High Chaparral/Zabeel mare.  So the cross does work.  Helps to see Danehill sire of the 2nd dam and the female line of Denise's Joy is strong with fillies.  So each horse pedigree has to be taken differently.

Also looking into the stats 43 foals 25 starters 17 winners 5 stakes winner is pretty good.

Sadler's Wells out of Danehill mares is 162 starters 120 winners and 32 stakes winners.

So on that High Chaparral/Zabeel works.  But I'd still want to know the female line first.


Posted By: bradjm
Date Posted: 19 Oct 2015 at 3:31pm
It certainly worked with dundeel and to a lesser extent alpine eagle

Zabeels worked being light and leggy maybe its best goingwith a similar type in a stallion


Posted By: furious
Date Posted: 19 Oct 2015 at 4:04pm
I like the Nureyev to Sadler's Wells anyway.  And with Dundeel I like the Fiesta Star 1-n/13c cross to the 1-n of High Chaparral.  Alpine Eagle doesn't have those other back ups.  Still a quality horse if it would only behave.



Posted By: djebel
Date Posted: 22 Oct 2015 at 3:28pm

MICONDESA (AUS)
Bay filly 2012 
High Chaparral
Bay 1999
Sadler's Wells
Bay 1981
Northern Dancer
Bay 1961
Nearctic
Brown 1954
Nearco
Lady Angela
1935
1944
4-r
14-c
Natalma
Bay 1957
Native Dancer
Almahmoud
1950
1947
5-f
2-d
Fairy Bridge
Bay 1975
Bold Reason
Bay 1968
Hail to Reason
Lalun
1958
1952
4-n
19-b
Special
Bay 1969
Forli
Thong
1963
1964
3-b
5-h
Kasora
Brown 1993
Darshaan
Brown 1981
Shirley Heights
Bay 1975
Mill Reef
Hardiemma
1968
1969
22-d
1-l
Delsy
Brown 1972
Abdos
Kelty
1959
1965
1-e
13-c
Kozana
Brown 1982
Kris
Chestnut 1976
Sharpen Up
Doubly Sure
1969
1971
5-i
2-o
Koblenza
Brown 1966
Hugh Lupus
Kalimara
1952
1960
19>
1-n
Isle of Gibraltar
Bay 2000
Danehill
Bay 1986
Danzig
Bay 1977
Northern Dancer
Bay 1961
Nearctic
Natalma
1954
1957
14-c
2-d
Pas de Nom
Bay or brown 1968
Admiral's Voyage
Petitioner
1959
1952
4-n
7-a
Razyana
Bay 1981
His Majesty
Bay 1968
Ribot
Flower Bowl
1952
1952
4-l
4-d
Spring Adieu
Bay 1974
Buckpasser
Natalma
1963
1957
1-s
2-d
Push a Venture
Bay 1994
Shirley Heights
Bay 1975
Mill Reef
Bay 1968
Never Bend
Milan Mill
1960
1962
19-b
22-d
Hardiemma
Bay 1969
Hardicanute
Grand Cross
1962
1952
3-j
1-l
Push a Button
Bay 1980
Bold Lad
Bay 1964
Bold Ruler
Barn Pride
1954
1957
8-d
2-e
River Lady
Bay 1963
Prince John
Nile Lily
1953
1954
14-f
10-a
 Ancestor duplications:Northern Dancer3m x 4m Natalma4m x 5m,5f Shirley Heights4m x 3f


-------------
reductio ad absurdum


Posted By: furious
Date Posted: 22 Oct 2015 at 3:48pm
I think it's not pedigree Djebel its the ability to relax.  Mongolian Khan has that.  Preferment has that and they don't have as stout a pedigree as the above one.  Red Cadeaux is the same.  He has so much speed in his pedigree but he goes to sleep in races.  I think Ed Dunlop knows how to train horses to do that.  I seem to remember Mal Johnston saying he could turn Kingston Town on and off in his races.  he could sprint three times and go to sleep inbetween.  He probably wasn't a true stayer but that ability got him home over 3200m.


Posted By: djebel
Date Posted: 22 Oct 2015 at 6:07pm
Race 3 - 2:15PM add energy group-PRINCE OF WALES STAKES (1200 METRES)
Of $150,000.1st $96,000, 2nd $30,000, 3rd $13,500, 4th $6,000, 5th $3,000, 6th $1,500
Standard Weight for Age, Three-Years-Old and Upwards, Apprentices cannot claim.
WestSpeed Bonus

Field Limit: 30

NoLast 10HorseTrainerJockeyBarrierWeightPenaltyHcp Rating
111523122x3 http://www.racingaustralia.horse/InteractiveForm/HorseFullForm.aspx?horsecode=NjIwODc0Mjg3MA%3d%3d&src=horseform&raceentry=NjI2MTMwNzk3NjA%3d" rel="nofollow - DAWN APPROACH http://www.racingaustralia.horse/InteractiveForm/TrainerLastRuns.aspx?trainercode=NDM2NTQ3OTAzMA%3d%3d&trainername=Vaughn+Sigley" rel="nofollow - Vaughn Sigley http://www.racingaustralia.horse/InteractiveForm/JockeyLastRuns.aspx?jockeycode=MjI4MzgzNzQ5MA%3d%3d" rel="nofollow - Takahide Ikenushi 358.5kg
253231406x0 http://www.racingaustralia.horse/InteractiveForm/HorseFullForm.aspx?horsecode=NTc0NTc5ODE5MA%3d%3d&src=horseform&raceentry=NjI2MTMxNjQxMzA%3d" rel="nofollow - ZESTER http://www.racingaustralia.horse/InteractiveForm/TrainerLastRuns.aspx?trainercode=MTY2MzI1NzIw&trainername=Daniel+Morton" rel="nofollow - Daniel Morton http://www.racingaustralia.horse/InteractiveForm/JockeyLastRuns.aspx?jockeycode=NTU2MTcyODgxMA%3d%3d" rel="nofollow - - Ms Jerry Noske -  (a) 458.5kg
32211280328 http://www.racingaustralia.horse/InteractiveForm/HorseFullForm.aspx?horsecode=NTkzNTA2NjA2MA%3d%3d&src=horseform&raceentry=NjI2MTMwNjAyOTA%3d" rel="nofollow - AKHEDASSET http://www.racingaustralia.horse/InteractiveForm/TrainerLastRuns.aspx?trainercode=NTI3NDA2NjA1MA%3d%3d&trainername=Dion+Luciani" rel="nofollow - Dion Luciani http://www.racingaustralia.horse/InteractiveForm/JockeyLastRuns.aspx?jockeycode=MjMzNDIxMjg3MA%3d%3d" rel="nofollow - Glenn Smith 558.5kg
4x23111111x http://www.racingaustralia.horse/InteractiveForm/HorseFullForm.aspx?horsecode=NjI0NTgzOTcxMA%3d%3d&src=horseform&raceentry=NjI2MTMxODM2MDA%3d" rel="nofollow - DELICACY http://www.racingaustralia.horse/InteractiveForm/TrainerLastRuns.aspx?trainercode=OTg0NzkyNjA%3d&trainername=Grant+Williams" rel="nofollow - Grant Williams http://www.racingaustralia.horse/InteractiveForm/JockeyLastRuns.aspx?jockeycode=MzQ0NTkzMDQwMA%3d%3d" rel="nofollow - William Pike 156.5kg
54x4112x40x http://www.racingaustralia.horse/InteractiveForm/HorseFullForm.aspx?horsecode=NjAxMTM5NDk1MA%3d%3d&src=horseform&raceentry=NjI2MTMyMTYwNTA%3d" rel="nofollow - MAGNIFISIO http://www.racingaustralia.horse/InteractiveForm/TrainerLastRuns.aspx?trainercode=NDM2NTQ3OTAzMA%3d%3d&trainername=Vaughn+Sigley" rel="nofollow - Vaughn Sigley http://www.racingaustralia.horse/InteractiveForm/JockeyLastRuns.aspx?jockeycode=MTM2MDgyMzIw" rel="nofollow - Jason Brown 256.5kg



-------------
reductio ad absurdum


Posted By: bradjm
Date Posted: 24 Oct 2015 at 10:42pm
That's two of the big three one to go

When we have a good one in the ranks they hold their own against the rest of the world


Posted By: furious
Date Posted: 24 Oct 2015 at 10:49pm
I just love that Bernborough figures in Winx's pedigree.  Doesn't her finish remind you of him.


Posted By: bradjm
Date Posted: 24 Oct 2015 at 11:10pm
Well she certainly has a blistering finish

Reminds me of zenyatta

What a loss street cry is


Posted By: goldey
Date Posted: 24 Oct 2015 at 11:34pm
Didn't someone say the 1ld oaks should be downgraded ?


Posted By: Speediskey
Date Posted: 24 Oct 2015 at 11:38pm
People complained about all the Queensland races.

QLD Oaks winner has since won an Epsom and a Cox Plate
JJ Atkins Winner has won the Caulfield Guineas
Doomben 10k winner has won the Memsie
Straddy/Tiara winner ran 2nd to Chaut first up in the Manikato.

Not bad for a carnival everyone on here was savaging. 

Even Pornichet who won the Doomben cup at least ran 4th in the Cox Plate.


Posted By: goldey
Date Posted: 24 Oct 2015 at 11:48pm
Yep, nothing wrong with sunshine .


Posted By: Brudder_A
Date Posted: 24 Oct 2015 at 11:55pm
Originally posted by Speediskey Speediskey wrote:

People complained about all the Queensland races.

QLD Oaks winner has since won an Epsom and a Cox Plate
JJ Atkins Winner has won the Caulfield Guineas
Doomben 10k winner has won the Memsie
Straddy/Tiara winner ran 2nd to Chaut first up in the Manikato.

Not bad for a carnival everyone on here was savaging. 

Even Pornichet who won the Doomben cup at least ran 4th in the Cox Plate.


Yeah... Not a bad carnival considering Eagle Farm is a null in the equation...

How about resurrecting Albion Park?


Posted By: djebel
Date Posted: 25 Oct 2015 at 1:23pm
Originally posted by goldey goldey wrote:

Didn't someone say the 1ld oaks should be downgraded ?

It should be opened up to mares.




-------------
reductio ad absurdum


Posted By: djebel
Date Posted: 29 Oct 2015 at 11:05am
ZAFIKI (NZ) 2012 Bay filly

by Makfi - Zingo, by Zabeel

 


MAKFI (GB)
B. 2007
GW 4 wins
f:220 r:160 w:87 SW:5
Dubawi
B. 2002
GW 5 wins
f:887 r:770 w:569 SW:99
Dubai Millennium
B. 1996
GW 9 wins
f:54 r:35 w:25 SW:5
Seeking the Gold5
Colorado Dancer4
Zomaradah
B. 1995
GW 6 wins
f:9 r:6 w:6 SW:3
Deploy14
Jawaher9
Dhelaal
B. 2002
NR
f:6 r:6 w:3 SW:1
Green Desert
B. 1983
GW 5 wins
f:1125 r:962 w:644 SW:89
Danzig7
Foreign CourierAm.
Irish Valley
Ch. 1982
NP
f:14 r:10 w:8 SW:2
Irish River1
Green Valley16
ZINGO (NZ)
B. 2000
SW 5 wins
f:1
Zabeel
B. 1986
GW 7 wins
f:1792 r:1491 w:1069 SW:156
Sir Tristram
B. 1971
Wnr 2 wins
f:1217 r:1000 w:689 SW:130
Sir Ivor8
Isolt6
Lady Giselle
B. 1982
NR
f:14 r:12 w:8 SW:2
1Nureyev5
Valderna16
Wild Applause
B. 1989
Wnr 1 win
f:14 r:11 w:10 SW:1
Sadler's Wells
B. 1981
GW 6 wins
f:2140 r:1678 w:1082 SW:291
Northern Dancer2
1Fairy Bridge5
Noble Mark
Ch. 1971
GW 5 wins
f:13 r:13 w:11 SW:1
On Your Mark1
Noble Joan13



-------------
reductio ad absurdum


Posted By: djebel
Date Posted: 29 Oct 2015 at 11:09am
Originally posted by djebel djebel wrote:

As I have said and T said in the opening post it is not pedigree it is training that is stopping our stayers being outstanding stayers. From the time they are born to the time they are 4 or 5 something is going wrong.

Our middle distant and staying horses should be every bit as good as the European and Japanese horses.

This bloke in the first at Cranbourne tonight, What is he doing over 1000m ?

 ECLAIR SHADOW (NZ)Grey colt 2012 
Guillotine
Grey 2004
Montjeu
Bay 1996
Sadler's Wells
Bay 1981
Northern Dancer
Bay 1961
Nearctic
Natalma
1954
1957
14-c
2-d
Fairy Bridge
Bay 1975
Bold Reason
Special
1968
1969
19-b
5-h
Floripedes
Bay 1985
Top Ville
Bay 1976
High Top
Sega Ville
1969
1968
11-a
8-i
Toute Cy
Bay 1979
Tennyson
Adele Toumignon
1970
1971
1-t
1-u
Refused the Dance
Grey 1996
Defensive Play
Bay 1987
Fappiano
Bay 1977
Mr Prospector
Killaloe
1970
1970
13-c
16-a
Safe Play
Bay 1978
Sham
Bori
1970
1972
9-h
2-i
Florida Jig
Roan 1979
Jig Time
Grey 1965
Native Dancer
Kanace
1950
1945
5-f
14-a
Misfesto
Bay or brown 1971
Manifesto
Miskodeed
1964
1961
8-g
9-h
Dosh
Bay 2003
Danske
Bay 1995
Danehill
Bay 1986
Danzig
Bay 1977
Northern Dancer
Pas de Nom
1961
1968
2-d
7-a
Razyana
Bay 1981
His Majesty
Spring Adieu
1968
1974
4-d
2-d
Our Tristalight
Grey 1989
Sir Tristram
Bay 1971
Sir Ivor
Isolt
1965
1961
8-g
6-e
Tudor Light
Grey 1972
All A'Light
Elabama
1963
1965
1-s
5-d
Heaps
Bay 1990
Fiesta Star
Chestnut 1979
Luskin Star
Chestnut 1974
Kaoru Star
Promising
1965
1968
31>
2-e
Very Merry
Chestnut 1963
Wilkes
Merry Polly
1952
1956
13-c
1-n
Too Much
Bay 1976
Diplomatic Agent
Chestnut 1968
Envoy
Royal Rhyme
1962
1960
2-f
19>
Plenty
Bay 1969
Sucaryl
Money
1964
1959
2-o
22-b
 Ancestor duplications:Northern Dancer4m x 5m


This bloke is stepping up to 1300m today. What really interested me was that he was nominated during the week for the Carbine Club on Saturday. They must hold him in high regard. Currently $41 


-------------
reductio ad absurdum


Posted By: Dr E
Date Posted: 29 Oct 2015 at 2:23pm
Nice work with Zafiki, djebelClap

Good luck with Eclair Shadow, but surely Petracca busts the cherry today? ... last prep was 2nd to My Popette, 3rd to My Poppette, Lizard Island and 2nd in a SA Sires in between ... 

Taken the quinella, and wishing you more good fortune!

PS: Noticed another interesting runner in the same race - Lawrences Folly - 5yo gelding by Desert King on debut ... can't say he's been rushed!!! Trialled Ok, same day as Zafiki - $51 taken, and there's your trifecta!Wink 


-------------
In reference to every post in the Trump thread ... "There may have been a tiny bit of license taken there" ... Ok, Thanks for the "heads up" PT!


Posted By: djebel
Date Posted: 29 Oct 2015 at 2:36pm
I have taken Eclair Shadow and Lopartega eachway.

Both placing would be lovely.




-------------
reductio ad absurdum


Posted By: Dr E
Date Posted: 29 Oct 2015 at 3:21pm
Thumbs Up ... Loptargo used the rails well, and Eclair Shadow was a neat run, looking for a mile next time.

Gee, you would be pulling your hair out if you were in Petracca! ... regardless of the wide run, it should be beating these!!!

Lawrences Folly will be fitter next time for the hard wide run, and I've seen worse debuts.


-------------
In reference to every post in the Trump thread ... "There may have been a tiny bit of license taken there" ... Ok, Thanks for the "heads up" PT!


Posted By: saintly96
Date Posted: 03 Nov 2015 at 8:06pm
Originally posted by patsy fagan patsy fagan wrote:

The issue is guys this spring you will be taking on 1% of European G1 stayers on home soil and theres a chance again that all 3 races could go overseas..

Says it all.



Or none........


Posted By: djebel
Date Posted: 21 Nov 2015 at 1:07pm
This filly is obviously fast. Her speed needs to be harnessed not abused.

I am convinced this is the difference between European and Japanese trainers and Aussie trainers.

 FAST APPROACHING (AUS)Chestnut filly 2011 
New Approach
Chestnut 2005
Galileo
Bay 1998
Sadler's Wells
Bay 1981
Northern Dancer
Bay 1961
Nearctic
Natalma
1954
1957
14-c
2-d
Fairy Bridge
Bay 1975
Bold Reason
Special
1968
1969
19-b
5-h
Urban Sea
Chestnut 1989
Miswaki
Chestnut 1978
Mr Prospector
Hopespringseternal
1970
1971
13-c
16-g
Allegretta
Chestnut 1978
Lombard
Anatevka
1967
1969
1-d
9-h
Park Express
Bay or brown 1983
Ahonoora
Chestnut 1975
Lorenzaccio
Chestnut 1965
Klairon
Phoenissa
1952
1951
1-w
5-h
Helen Nichols
Chestnut 1966
Martial
Quaker Girl
1957
1961
2-e
1-m
Matcher
Brown 1966
Match
Brown 1958
Tantieme
Relance
1947
1952
20-a
16-g
Lachine
Bay 1960
Grey Sovereign
Loved One
1948
1947
6-f
19-b
Just a Kiseki
Chestnut 1999
Fuji Kiseki
Bay 1992
Sunday Silence
Brown 1986
Halo
Bay or brown 1969
Hail to Reason
Cosmah
1958
1953
4-n
2-d
Wishing Well
Bay 1975
Understanding
Mountain Flower
1963
1964
1-g
3-e
Millracer
Bay 1983
Le Fabuleux
Chestnut 1961
Wild Risk
Anguar
1940
1950
3-f
13-c
Marston's Mill
Brown 1975
In Reality
Millicent
1964
1969
21-a
22-d
Lady Danette
Bay 1991
Danehill
Bay 1986
Danzig
Bay 1977
Northern Dancer
Pas de Nom
1961
1968
2-d
7-a
Razyana
Bay 1981
His Majesty
Spring Adieu
1968
1974
4-d
2-d
Gourette
Bay 1985
R B Chesne
Bay 1976
Brigadier Gerard
Vive la Reine
1968
1969
14-c
1-d
Igraine
Bay 1968
Round Table
Reveille
1954
1961
2-f
1-n
 Ancestor duplications:Northern Dancer4m x 5m


-------------
reductio ad absurdum


Posted By: Dr E
Date Posted: 21 Nov 2015 at 10:57pm
Yep, anywhere else, and this would probably have never started in a race below 1600m. Classic staying lines, even Mum won a couple at 2400m and a stakes race at 2200m. Still lightly raced, so hopefully she gets a chance. 

-------------
In reference to every post in the Trump thread ... "There may have been a tiny bit of license taken there" ... Ok, Thanks for the "heads up" PT!


Posted By: furious
Date Posted: 22 Nov 2015 at 8:00am
Reveille was an Australian daughter of Star kingdom who was a miler from this line of Chelandry.  This line will often throw up superior milers, sprinters or stayers so maybe the filly, despite her blood likes it a bit shorter.



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