'Wastage' Facts
Printed From: Thoroughbred Village
Category: Horse Breeding - Public Forums
Forum Name: Breeding Forum
Forum Description: General discussion about thoroughbred horse breeding, pedigrees and bloodlines
URL: https://forum.thoroughbredvillage.com.au/forum_posts.asp?TID=51793
Printed Date: 17 Apr 2024 at 2:53am
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Topic: 'Wastage' Facts
Posted By: Gay3
Subject: 'Wastage' Facts
Date Posted: 20 Aug 2014 at 11:40am
There seems to be little statistical info on this & it's near impossible to find so perhaps members could add meaningful info they come across  https://www.facebook.com/DeKabatRacingResearch/posts/608027345961185?fref=nf" rel="nofollow - De Kabat Racing Research The latest issue of Hoofbeats magazine has an article called "Wasted Lives". I've sent an email to the editor regarding the article, and it will be published in the next issue. Here is what I wrote: The article by Malanda Hyde in your recent issue called "wasted lives" is full of statistical errors with regards to the racing industry.
"During the 2010 breeding season, 16,117 foals were produced yet by the
time the 2012-13 racing season came around only 7,353 two year olds
were registered leaving 8,764 of 2010 horses failing to even make it to
the racetrack." "With the numbers of foals bred increasing every year" "The number of Thoroughbreds sent to knackeries each year is hard to estimate" Further, a study done by RIDRC in 2001 that used economic, recreational event data and breed society data to estimate the number of horses in Australia. They estimate that there are nearly 180,000 registered Thoroughbreds in Australia, of which 32,000 are racing, 66,000 are breeding or young stock, 24,000 compete in registered non-racing events (eg the Royal Easter Show), and 57,000 are used for recreation. There are also 218,000 unregistered recreational horses in Australia (of which unnamed Thoroughbreds make up a significant proportion). There are plenty of homes for ex-racehorses in Australia, and while not all horses will be suitable for new disciplines, the vast majority find good homes. The issue of 'wastage' is massively over-estimated by many groups who use it to gain emotionally based funding. ------------- Wisdom has been chasing me but I've always outrun it! |
Replies:
Posted By: djebel
Date Posted: 20 Aug 2014 at 2:13pm
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Who is McGreevy/Hayek and who do they represent ? No company does it for the sake of it. ------------- reductio ad absurdum |
Posted By: JoH
Date Posted: 20 Aug 2014 at 2:58pm
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Here's half the answer Djebel http://sydney.edu.au/vetscience/about/staff/profiles/paul.mcgreevy.php ------------- suck it up ... Life isn't run at w.f.a. :) |
Posted By: JoH
Date Posted: 20 Aug 2014 at 3:00pm
apols that link isn't live .. I seem to have lost the power to do that.  ------------- suck it up ... Life isn't run at w.f.a. :) |
Posted By: Dizzy
Date Posted: 20 Aug 2014 at 3:06pm
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try - http://www.dekabat.com/ And no live link as well |
Posted By: WhiteRidge
Date Posted: 20 Aug 2014 at 3:23pm
| About time the real facts were published Gay. Sick of the mobs who claim 18000 TBs go to slaughter each year, yet that many are notbred. The TB would be extinct! |
Posted By: Gay3
Date Posted: 20 Aug 2014 at 3:48pm
Her FB page https://www.facebook.com/DeKabatRacingResearch is worth keeping an eye on as she doesn't post much here these days . Her ID was something like 'rene' but doesn't come up in the member search so I must be off target. Help me out someone....Second Chance? Mayor? Nostra? I know you all know her, ex Kiwi  ------------- Wisdom has been chasing me but I've always outrun it! |
Posted By: Spearmint
Date Posted: 20 Aug 2014 at 4:26pm
------------- "Nothing in the world is so powerful as an idea whose time has come" |
Gay3 wrote:Posted By: Gay3
Date Posted: 20 Aug 2014 at 4:35pm
Correctomundo  , thanks Spearmint, I knew one of the crew'd come to the rescue, any wonder the search wasn't complying  . I think what messed me up was knowing that Don or referred to her as Renee once or twice  . Does some great stats collecting anyway!!
------------- Wisdom has been chasing me but I've always outrun it! |
Posted By: reng
Date Posted: 20 Aug 2014 at 4:39pm
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That's me :) I'm currently doing a big broad study for the ARB on this issue. I have finished part one - which was a survey of about 3,000 horses that had raced and retired and where they have gone after racing. The results are going to be in the Sept issue of Breeding & Racing. Part two is looking at horses that are named but unraced - there are 3,533 horses from the 2008 and 2009 foal crops that meet this criteria, and I'm hoping to get information on about half of them for a decent sample. Part 3 will be later, looking at foals born that don't get named - why not and where they go. ------------- The problem with Opportunity is that it wears overalls and looks like work. |
Posted By: reng
Date Posted: 20 Aug 2014 at 4:46pm
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Hayek can be found on the RSPCA website - it's a thesis paper that was done in 2004 that surveyed about 1,500 horses that left a racing stable. The main problem is that it counts 'went to different trainer' as having left racing; but otherwise, the main thing to take from it is that 6% of horses she surveyed went directly to a knackery, and the rest found homes either at stud or pleasure horses. McGreevy is an RSPCA 'scientist' who did the awful whips study a while back, and has now published the Hayek data as his own (Hayek as co-author). My part one study pretty much lines up with their data, although a much lower portion of horses directly to a knackery. The number of horses that died in both studies was the same %, but Hayek had a higher 'knackery' figure while mine had a higher 'euthanised by vet'. There are other studies out there, but not as useful as the Hayek one, which isn't overly useful, but better than being blind. The animals rights people often refer to the Bourke study - which I've got a copy of, and which they mis-quote. Ironically, the Bourke study is pro-racing, and discusses some useful issues, but it's got lost in amongst the mis-quoted single sentence. The Doughty study is often also used as an illustration, but it has a tiny sample size, so is largely not relevant. ------------- The problem with Opportunity is that it wears overalls and looks like work. |
Posted By: Gay3
Date Posted: 20 Aug 2014 at 4:54pm
Thanks reng, extremely insightful & can only be good for the image of racing, as well as for participants to know that 'they're' not the only ones doing the best they can for their horses
 ------------- Wisdom has been chasing me but I've always outrun it! |
Posted By: Oritah
Date Posted: 21 Aug 2014 at 12:05am
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Well done Gay3 :) more people need to be doing this.... If the racing industry and supporter dont tackle the problem head on, groups often claiming to Animal Activists with hidden agendas will surely win... Look at what has happened to Jumps racing... Of course this was a option for some racehorses, and I can tell you that anything at least 1/2 sane was a prospect as an eventer after racing. The industry needs to beat its own drum and beat it loudly because they will lie and cheat to achieve their agendas. |
Posted By: 3blindmice
Date Posted: 21 Aug 2014 at 1:21am
| You can get a fair guide from the industry's own annual report figures and from my recollection on the face of it they aren't pretty any way you dress them up. Something like 90,000 horses bred over a 5 year period and less than 20,000 were still registered to race. 70,000 seems to be a damned high attrition rate and it would be a brave man or woman who'd suggest that even half of them are out there grazing the hills. No point in ignoring the facts. |
Posted By: WhiteRidge
Date Posted: 21 Aug 2014 at 2:37am
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Posted By: Baguette
Date Posted: 21 Aug 2014 at 11:14am
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I'm with 3blindmice in this one. The last paragraph of the original post is totally wrong IMO. There aren't plenty of good homes outside the racing industry for the number of thoroughbreds bred every year in this country. There simply isn't enough people out there in the show/eventing/ dressage/pleasure riding world who want an off the track thoroughbred. People in this world want a well conformed horse with correct gaits, good temperament and above all soundness. Ex racehorses that fit this criteria then have to go through an extensive re-training process by someone who knows what they're doing. Lots of ex racehorses go on to lead long lives in good homes but they would be in the minority in my experience. It's a numbers game. Too many horses bred and not enough homes for them. Can't be prettied up in any way. |
Posted By: Gay3
Date Posted: 21 Aug 2014 at 11:47am
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Firstly, the 70000 quoted by 3bm needs to be approx halved to account for breeding stock. Baguette, your comments apply to the entire horse population, Oz wide & they all end up dead, one way or another, we can only wish for a peaceful, stress free end, whether it be at 2 yrs old or 32. At least efforts are being made, in this particular industry, to increase awareness & lengthen the productive life (to humans) of those deemed suitable for lives outside racing. ------------- Wisdom has been chasing me but I've always outrun it! |
Posted By: Baguette
Date Posted: 21 Aug 2014 at 2:09pm
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Gay3 I totally agree that this is a problem across all breeds of horse and not just horses of course. Too many dogs and cats bred every year as well. I applaud the fact that the racing industry is trying to do something about rehoming ex race horses. My post was aimed at pointing out that there is no " feel good" solution to the problem. There are just not enough good homes outside racing to take the number of thoroughbreds born each year. |
Posted By: 3blindmice
Date Posted: 21 Aug 2014 at 2:23pm
That's a 35,000 mare turnover every 5 years Gay - which the figures suggest would be somewhat optimistic given that only about 24,000 mares are covered each year. Nevertheless, the question remains - where do all these mares end up after their breeding careers? Nothing I've read yet leads me to have any confidence that the "estimates" of kindly afterlives for thoroughbreds are anything but wildly optimistic. I'd like to believe otherwise but until something definitive comes along I'll ignore the hype from both sides of the argument. The new studies will be interesting but surely abattoirs are required to keep data and should be the first port of call. If they don't already keep adequate records then they bloody well should be required to, and governments, animal welfare organisations and the racing industry itself should ensuring that this is the case in the future. Then we'll have no debate, just facts. Sugar coating and averting the eyes just doesn't cut it for me. |
Posted By: 3blindmice
Date Posted: 21 Aug 2014 at 2:31pm
Wrong conclusion. I'm suggesting they are not FACTS at all in most cases, just optimistic - possibly extremely optimistic - guesstimations aimed at sugar-coating the reality. Like many, I'm hoping the optimism is well-placed. |
Posted By: Gay3
Date Posted: 21 Aug 2014 at 3:03pm
Fact of life: All horses of every description end up either in a knackery, dead or alive on arrival, or, in the ground. How many & their quality of life prior, is what matters 
------------- Wisdom has been chasing me but I've always outrun it! |
Posted By: 3blindmice
Date Posted: 21 Aug 2014 at 3:10pm
| Very pragmatic Gay. Some believe that they are more than commodities to be disposed of after we've extracted our pleasure, and they have a point. But in the end you're dead right so let's stop the sugar and spice. |
Posted By: WhiteRidge
Date Posted: 21 Aug 2014 at 6:00pm
Same for the younger mares that need to be PTs, and foals. The studs PTS and put them in the graves. The main ones that send to the knackery are the smaller breeders who try to get what money they can for a horse to try and break even. |
Posted By: Oritah
Date Posted: 21 Aug 2014 at 10:58pm
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No one breaks even via the knackery :( To suggest it is only smaller breeders who do that is unfair. The studs I worked at (mostly Boutique) when the time came were picked up by the knackery after either being PTS or shot on site by them. It is very difficult to understand the path of the TB to the sales, some are sent directly from the stable or stud, some are sold cheaply or given away to wrong homes (inexperienced people, kids, unscrupulous persons who make money getting free or very cheap horses and sending them to the next sale) and end up there via the new owners or a few owners :( As a small breeder, I try my best to keep track of all the horses I have bred, Have lost track of a couple, but I know where most are and the current owners know those horses will always be welcome home here with me for any reason. I am no doubt in a better situation than many, but I will do my utmost to be responsible for the horses I have bred. All of that said, it is much better for these horses to go to the knackers via any means than end up starving to death in a paddock somewhere. |
Posted By: lope
Date Posted: 22 Aug 2014 at 6:28am
Will make interesting reading, Reng. I hope your stats include the source of the named that don't make it to the track. By source, I mean bought at sale, privately bought or owner breeder etc. My theory is that owner breeders will have a far lower percentage of named and unraced. Like to know.
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Posted By: reng
Date Posted: 22 Aug 2014 at 5:09pm
Firstly - the knackery question. No, they don't keep records. There are 2 export grade abattoirs in Australia and 30 licenced knackeries. The 2 export places keep records and the Australian Bureau of Statistics which showed
that the number of horses processed in the two export abattoirs had fallen from
47,333 in 1992 to 11,415 in 2007. That's all breeds of horses including donkeys and mules, with an estimated 25% being feral horses. The number of those that are racing stock is unknown. The 30 knackeries don't keep records of 1. number of horses and 2. breeds of horses. A study done in 1991 estimated that they collectively processed 7,500 horses; while another study in 2004 estimated it to be 13,500. Again of all breeds of horses. Note that both these figures are estimates, and the 2004 study also heard that most knackeries had been processing LESS horses over time, not more, in line with the drop in the export abattoir figures. Which just says that the 1991 study was a probably an under-estimate. Secondly - the breeding question. There are approximately 26,000 mares at stud each year. With an avg life span of 10 years, that's a required replacement of 2,600 new horses every year. The current number of maiden mares each season is about 2,800, and the number of mares in total is falling. So there are more horses leaving than can be accounted for by death from old age, illness or injury. However, it's in the order of 1,000 horses, not the crazy numbers bandied about by anti-racing groups. Knackeries need to be better regulated. They need to keep better records (breed of horse; where it came from ie direct from racing, pleasure horse home, stud, etc). They also need better humane guidelines to ensure that horses don't have to watch another horse being killed, and that each horse gets a fast humane death. ------------- The problem with Opportunity is that it wears overalls and looks like work. |
Posted By: reng
Date Posted: 22 Aug 2014 at 5:21pm
I have no idea where you get your figures from. Using Stud Book figures and a rolling average over five years of 15,000 foals born each year: Foals born in 5 years: 75,000 Foals that die before racing age (according to Stud Book): 4,500* *Notifications of death to the Stud Book are voluntary and work out to 6% of foals born, but estimates from breeders are up to 10%. Foals that go to stud: 22.4% of foals born (some raced, some unraced) or 16,800 ------------- The problem with Opportunity is that it wears overalls and looks like work. |
Posted By: furious
Date Posted: 22 Aug 2014 at 5:44pm
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And as Australian and New Zealand have one of the greatest numbers of geldings racing and on sell into Asia and South Africa it's a wonder even 22.4% of foals born go to stud here. I've just come back from a trip through South Australia and western NSW. The number of feral goats out there wondering around and a few horses but have no idea whether some of those were owned or not. It is far worst to dump an animal to look after itself in my book any day. Keep up the good work Reng. |
Posted By: Heavy10
Date Posted: 25 Aug 2016 at 10:04am
Yet you still bet and support horse racing...hmmm |
Posted By: acacia alba
Date Posted: 25 Aug 2016 at 12:40pm
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If wastage in the industry isnt properly addressed, whats to stop racing going the way of the dogs. Messara is correct when he says this industry must be seen to be proactive on animal welfare and wastage. He can see the writing on the wall, from a large breeders view. ------------- animals before people. |
Posted By: furious
Date Posted: 25 Aug 2016 at 12:57pm
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Then why make breeders up in arms by similar high minded stand over tactics. Talk, research and understand your participants. Get the story on how they operate and get the true story out there. I've just had a horrid week with overheads for me going through the roof so don't need to be told - as I close on 60 - that the industry I've given my life too, which I love with all my heart, is in fact totally against modern thinking. Why. Does modern man want to live in a room and play video games about horses and dogs, but never know the real live animal. Living with animals is hard work but worth the effort. No one, who doesn't live that life, has the right to tell others that "oh well that is life", goodbye to another industry. I've said it before when they decided to shut down floor mills in Australia it killed my father with grief and stress. So much worry for a gentle man and I'm sure that's what brought on his cancer. Racing Australia may of had all the best will in the world but likewise they went about it the wrong way. What is wrong with people these days. Are the big men so protected that they can't see the stress that the small man is suffering from. We all have to work hard to keep this industry safe at all times. It's so easy for a fall to kill either a horse of jockey etc. We have to work hard to keep the creeps - who don't care and only look at the bottom line of winning a dollar by drugs - found and out of the industry. We have to realise that not every mare goes in foal and not every foal is born alive. We have to understand that studs often have deaths from accident - not some sinister underlying story. We had the sad story from second coming about losing a filly to snake bite. A filly who to them was worth her weight in gold and hope for the future. Stop this undercutting and bickering and start fighting for these horses we all should love and admire. Many people here wouldn't know what to do without them and every person in Australia, whether they know it or not, would be poorer.
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Posted By: bradjm
Date Posted: 25 Aug 2016 at 1:17pm
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says the guy whose stallions serve over 200 mares in a season
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Posted By: bradjm
Date Posted: 25 Aug 2016 at 1:17pm
| referring to messara their :) |
Posted By: furious
Date Posted: 25 Aug 2016 at 1:26pm
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Coolmore usually have Arrowfield in spade for numbers of foals by their sires bradjm. |
Posted By: Tlazolteotl
Date Posted: 25 Aug 2016 at 1:36pm
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Is that right? Only 20% of thoroughbreds race as 2yos? Do most of that 80% never race? You don't see many racehorses that didn't race at 2.
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Posted By: acacia alba
Date Posted: 25 Aug 2016 at 1:44pm
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I am not taking sides here. I am just curious about the opposition to Messara,s ideas. He is a very cluey and innovative man, and a huge breeder, and he sees benefits in it. I didnt get to hear any opposition spokes person,s side to it, but would be interested to. ------------- animals before people. |
Posted By: Gay3
Date Posted: 25 Aug 2016 at 1:46pm
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Take a glance at all the short distance maiden fields at this time of the year, they're chokkas with 1st starters ------------- Wisdom has been chasing me but I've always outrun it! |
Posted By: Tlazolteotl
Date Posted: 25 Aug 2016 at 1:59pm
So why all the whinging about 2yo racing, when only 20% of them do it and they are the ones suited to it?
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Posted By: furious
Date Posted: 25 Aug 2016 at 2:02pm
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The funny thing Gay3 is in England you can have three two year old races at one meeting (full of first time starters) any time after July - I download those races and grind my teeth when there are so many two year races as I know most wont be in the computors database and have to be loaded and linked. So they start them as two year olds. We aren't doing ourselves any service not doing so but I suppose an awful lot of them have trialled at two year olds which is better than nothing. Funny thing if I protected a baby and didn't let it run around I'd be doing it a disservice. Bones need to be strengthened for the work they are going to do.
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Posted By: Gay3
Date Posted: 25 Aug 2016 at 3:21pm
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They are furious, thru' gallops, jumpouts & trials, just not races. These days it's counter productive to start any horse unless it's a fair chance of gaining prizemoney because with 2 or 3 unplaced runs, they have buckleys of beating ballots thereafter. ------------- Wisdom has been chasing me but I've always outrun it! |
Posted By: furious
Date Posted: 25 Aug 2016 at 3:58pm
| Thanks gay |
Posted By: maccamax
Date Posted: 25 Aug 2016 at 10:57pm
| EAT all wastage animals ... Problems solved. |
Posted By: oneonesit
Date Posted: 25 Aug 2016 at 11:27pm
How much longer am I in the dog box Macca ?  ------------- Refer ALP Election Promises |
Posted By: maccamax
Date Posted: 26 Aug 2016 at 2:00am
Yr out = mates to the end . Lend me a quid ? 1-1 " That is the end "
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Posted By: bradjm
Date Posted: 26 Aug 2016 at 4:44pm
Snitzel and Smart missile have both serve over 800 mares each in the last four seasons |
Posted By: djebel
Date Posted: 26 Aug 2016 at 5:10pm
Thoroughbred racing is the rich mans game. The dish lickers are the poor mans game. Thoroughbred horse racing will not be shut down. ------------- reductio ad absurdum |
Posted By: troppo75
Date Posted: 26 Aug 2016 at 5:27pm
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you know what the problems with stats is? if it shows up 1 horse died.. people will have something to hang outrage on... they get their 1 die on a racetrack via tv a week / two weeks.. that is enough, they can show that for the world.. give the bleeding hearts actual numbers in the range of 200 - 1000 and then you're dealing with a big mess.. A real messara ------------- Now having passed 1000 posts I feel you are all so much the wiser for my having said... stuff! |
Posted By: maccamax
Date Posted: 26 Aug 2016 at 10:35pm
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We will reach the stage where the law of the jungle will be the only judicial judgement accepted. I have already promised myself that the first " Fool " who knocks on my door to tell me I'm not allowed to smoke inside my unit , in their community title complex .... Will be slaughtered for food for my dogs.
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Posted By: Isaac soloman
Date Posted: 27 Aug 2016 at 12:35pm
Posted By: maccamax
Date Posted: 28 Aug 2016 at 12:17pm
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Most living things are eaten somewhere in the world . Even humans . Can you imagine a Sunday roast with Fiddles on the menu . HOW would they clean him .
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Posted By: Carioca
Date Posted: 28 Aug 2016 at 1:19pm
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Have to turn the spit handle pretty quick Macca,.other wise he would eat all of the potatoes !
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Posted By: Ticino
Date Posted: 28 Aug 2016 at 9:52pm
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Hello, so it's a little wonder "Snitzel" didn't end up on human plates, (Tongue in Cheek). (Offtopic) Btw, his Name is misspelled something I offen see in typical "German words", correct it would be "Schnitzel", best known in Austria /German as "Wiener Schnitzel". You definitelity will find the recipe in a book about German Cooking. regards, Ticino
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Posted By: Gay3
Date Posted: 28 Aug 2016 at 10:23pm
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Aussies are notorious for laziness Ticino & spelling how words sound that'll ruffle a few feathers I'm sure tho' I'm sure Fiddles will back me!!
------------- Wisdom has been chasing me but I've always outrun it! |
Posted By: Ticino
Date Posted: 28 Aug 2016 at 10:44pm
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Hello, Gay, meanwhile I know Aussie hardly open their mouth to keep out flies and midgets. Admittingly "German" is regarded even in Europe, one of the hardest to learn languages. In comparison is English easier especially, when I think of grammer. For example English you have a simple "The" (mother, father, child)and in German "der, die, das" (der Vater (male), die Mutter (female), das Kind (neuter)). Even as a German by birth, I was mis(treated) with German Grammer for many years. A great Story had been written by Mark Twain, the American Writer , about the "Terrible German Language", it's worth reading. regards, Ticino
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Posted By: furious
Date Posted: 31 Aug 2016 at 1:38pm
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Brajam in response to the numbers of mares served to stallions Coolmore win hands down against Arrowfield. Arrowfield Redoute's Choice three times champion sire 1701 foals over 15 years and 3 years above 200 mares Snitzel 1048 foals from 9 years and 4 seasons above 200 Not a Single Doubt 967 foals over 10 years and never over 200 the others in numbers are just also rans with numbers between 70 and 130 a season take Fastnet Rock from Coolmore he has 1603 foals over 10 years and 8 seasons above 200 mares served Encosta de Lago no longer serves but has 2046 foals from 18 years but his early years didn't see over 135 mares but had 6 seasons above 200 mares at Coolmore So You Think 404 foals over 3 years one over 200 Pierro 326 foals in two years one over 200 and one 199 Choisir 1486 foals over 12 years two years served over 200 mares So Redoute's has served 5 years more at stud of just over 100 more foals to Fastnet Rock
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Posted By: furious
Date Posted: 31 Aug 2016 at 1:44pm
| Missed Smart Missile who has 479 foals over three years so that compares to Pierro's 326 over two years. |
Posted By: furious
Date Posted: 31 Aug 2016 at 1:45pm
| And first season of Rubick at Coolmore saw him serve 214 mares to Smart Missiles first season of 196 mares. So still just below. |
Posted By: 3blindmice
Date Posted: 10 Jul 2018 at 10:44pm
Revisiting after the 4C wimpout and found this. Sorry I didn't get back to you but the answer was already provided. As I said, racing's annual reports.
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Posted By: djebel
Date Posted: 12 Jul 2018 at 1:59pm
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6% sounds like quite a lot to me. If it is 10%, well that is even worse. ------------- reductio ad absurdum |