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Forum Description: General discussion about thoroughbred horse breeding, pedigrees and bloodlines
URL: https://forum.thoroughbredvillage.com.au/forum_posts.asp?TID=48874 Printed Date: 20 Apr 2024 at 11:01pm Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.05 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Inbreeding to DanehillPosted By: Blacktypepedigree
Subject: Inbreeding to Danehill
Date Posted: 27 Feb 2014 at 4:35pm
http://www.blacktypepedigree.com/horse/Win_Smoothly_AUS-470755" rel="nofollow - WIN SMOOTHLY , is the 18th BTW inbred to Danehill. He won Lisboa Prelude (L) in Macau last week and is 1st BT winner by Court Command (Commands)
Three horse inbred to Danehill won G1 race: http://www.blacktypepedigree.com/horse/Guelph_AUS-5545" rel="nofollow - GUELPH , http://www.blacktypepedigree.com/horse/Astaire_IRE-104453" rel="nofollow - ASTAIRE and http://www.blacktypepedigree.com/horse/Southern_Lord_AUS-433519" rel="nofollow - SOUTHERN LORD
One won G2 race:
http://www.blacktypepedigree.com/horse/Steel_Rose_NZ-469595" rel="nofollow - STEEL ROSE
Six won G3 race:
http://www.blacktypepedigree.com/horse/Ladies_Are_Forever_GB-266525" rel="nofollow - LADIES ARE FOREVER
http://www.blacktypepedigree.com/horse/Leitir_Mor_IRE-106488" rel="nofollow - LEITIR MOR
http://www.blacktypepedigree.com/horse/Kiss_A_Rose_AUS-83163" rel="nofollow - KISS A ROSE
All BTP horses inbred to Danehill you can find through Blacktypepedigree service http://www.blacktypepedigree.com/inbreeding/Danehill_USA-145496/5/2/1/0/0/" rel="nofollow - Inbreeding (need to be registered) and If you will use "Monitor changes on query results" - you will find all new horses or results of older horses inbred to Danehill in your mailbox.
Replies: Posted By: Observer
Date Posted: 28 Feb 2014 at 3:54am
Inevitable that there will be more and more cases of horses with Danehill duplications with the passing of eah year from here on in. His presense is ubiquitous in the Australian breeding herd. Steel Rose is a dubious case of being "inbred" to Danehill, her sire Guillotine is devoid of Danehill, her dam Aga Panther is indeed inbred to Danehill 2x3.
Posted By: Lordy
Date Posted: 28 Feb 2014 at 7:21pm
18 stakes winners from how many runners?
Posted By: maxamill
Date Posted: 28 Feb 2014 at 9:06pm
I would of thought there would be on a lot more than 18 total (within 3 gen) . How many ND x ND 3rd gen get !! Would think danehill will better that in time. In aus anyway
Posted By: Gay3
Date Posted: 13 May 2015 at 5:52pm
Triple Danehill?
Tara Madgwick - Wednesday, 13 May 2015
The
two year-old colts and geldings maiden at Canterbury on Wednesday was
won by
promising Sebring gelding Bring a Secret, who has a little secret in
that he might be the first winner to carry three lines of Danehill in
his
pedigree.
Prepared at Canberra by Nick Olive, Bring a Secret was narrowly beaten in a
$20,000 juvenile event at Wagga last month when resuming from a spell and
quickly made amends here.
Sent out favourite with Glyn Schofield in the saddle, Bring a Secret found the
line strongly to win by more than a length over 1250 metres as favourite.
"We’ve had an opinion of him since day one,” revealed Nick Olive.
"We’ll get him home and see how he progresses, although he is entered for the big
race in Brisbane (Group I JJ Atkins Classic).
"He’s a nice horse with a big future.”
Bring a Secret as a yearling
Bring a Secret was consigned to the Inglis Australian Easter Yearling Sale by Newgate Farm on
behalf of his Canberra based breeders Roz and Callum Beaton of Cuillin Hills Thoroughbreds, but passed
in shy of his $60,000 reserve.
He is the third winner from three foals to race from Secrets Sleeping (NZ), who
was also trained by Nick Olive and won three races including a victory at
Warwick Farm.
A daughter of Danehill’s Group I winning son Viking Ruler, Secrets Sleeping comes
from the family of Group I stars Cosmic Endeavour, Easy Rocking and Fairy King
Prawn and has a close double cross of Danehill as her dam Stella’s Pantry is by
Danewin.
Combining Secrets Sleeping with Sebring, who also has a line of Danehill being
from a daughter of Flying Spur, gives Bring a Secret the triple treat - 4 x 3 x 4 !
One might think that three lines of a bay dominant sire like Danehill would
result in a bay, but not so, as Bring a Secret has two chestnut parents and is a flashy chestnut with some
prominent white markings!
Secrets Sleeping has a yearling colt to follow by Denman and another weanling
filly by Sebring, which is also chestnut.
------------- Wisdom has been chasing me but I've always outrun it!
Posted By: mozzie
Date Posted: 22 May 2015 at 11:10am
I've decided to inbreed to Danehill 3 x 3 this season with my mare Lone Ballad. She's booked into Foxwedge. Given that she is also a 3/4 sister to Rock Sturdy (Lone Ballad is by Holy Roman Emperor), I thought I'd give it a go.
------------- We learn everyday but still die stupid
Posted By: runnerdance
Date Posted: 22 May 2015 at 11:24am
I'm thinking the same. Al maher mare to helmet this season
Posted By: brogers
Date Posted: 25 May 2015 at 7:46am
Inbred to Danehill
2,881 Foals of Racing Age
1,245 Starters
546 Winners
28 Stakes winners
That is 1% SW to Starters. No magic beans here!
------------- Abel Tasman...Keen Ice...Divisidero....Verrazano...Catchy...Carrick...Ivictory...
Posted By: goldey
Date Posted: 25 May 2015 at 10:48am
Winners to runners % would not be considered very flash either .
Posted By: runnerdance
Date Posted: 25 May 2015 at 12:13pm
Thanks Brogers - greats stats and crystal clear info. Good job
Posted By: djebel
Date Posted: 25 May 2015 at 12:23pm
brogers wrote:
Inbred to Danehill
2,881 Foals of Racing Age
1,245 Starters
546 Winners
28 Stakes winners
That is 1% SW to Starters. No magic beans here!
Isn't that 1% to foals of racing age rather than starters ?
------------- reductio ad absurdum
Posted By: djebel
Date Posted: 25 May 2015 at 12:31pm
Either way its a small percentage but is it small compared to the rest of the population ?
Also how much of that inbreeding is through poor quality stock ?
------------- reductio ad absurdum
Posted By: Ash
Date Posted: 25 May 2015 at 4:26pm
djebel wrote:
Either way its a small percentage but is it small compared to the rest of the population ?
Also how much of that inbreeding is through poor quality stock ?
That's the question.
Danehill is a victim of his own success. Any son of his that remained intact was sent to stand there for a while - The number of Danehill sons at stud are staggering- and most of them very ordinary.
I fear the cross will always be low due to sheer numbers of poor quality.
Posted By: Ticino
Date Posted: 25 May 2015 at 10:32pm
Hello, the thirdplaced Amona (by Aussie Rules), Diana Trial, 2000 meters Group 2, at Berlin/Hoppegarten, is bred 2x3 Danehill.
It's the first time I've seen a Thouroughbred inbred to Danehill at a German racetrack.
regards, Ticino
Posted By: Oritah
Date Posted: 28 May 2015 at 9:45pm
I have a confession.....
I prefer pedigrees with out Danehill and to a lesser extent ND influence in them.... Very hard to find, as they have been done to death....
------------- Lawyer
Posted By: Off and racing
Date Posted: 29 May 2015 at 6:32am
Be interested to know the stats in foals with 4 lines of northern dancer and there performance on the track
Posted By: Breeder
Date Posted: 29 May 2015 at 8:43am
Danehill, in Australia and NZ, will turnout to be the modern day Hyperion or Nearco in pedigrees, over the next 10-15 years
Posted By: Lordy
Date Posted: 29 May 2015 at 8:55am
Maybe right. Over time it will be virtually impossible to avoid duplications. Inbreeding however can be avoided as Danehill will be appearing further back in the pedigree.
Posted By: djebel
Date Posted: 29 May 2015 at 9:30am
Oritah wrote:
I have a confession.....
I prefer pedigrees with out Danehill and to a lesser extent ND influence in them.... Very hard to find, as they have been done to death....
Are you an Aga Khan devotee ?
He was adamant the Never Bend sireline would outlast/outdo Northern Dancer.
------------- reductio ad absurdum
Posted By: Oritah
Date Posted: 29 May 2015 at 9:10pm
djebel wrote:
Oritah wrote:
I have a confession.....
I prefer pedigrees with out Danehill and to a lesser extent ND influence in them.... Very hard to find, as they have been done to death....
Are you an Aga Khan devotee ?
He was adamant the Never Bend sireline would outlast/outdo Northern Dancer.
No Djebel - to be honest I dont know much abut him but I like their stallions!!! That Grey Dalakhani being my favorite
I just think there are to many ordinary and/or unproven Danehill sons running around which can result in undesirable traits coming thru.
While ND is just in so many pedigrees - its hard to avoid - you can very quickly end up with over 6 duplication's. Which I know many people like - but you must remember those double ups can be of both good and bad traits - genetics are a funny thing....
Having said all that - I am no expert here, my 1st TB foals are in utero...
------------- Lawyer
Posted By: Gay3
Date Posted: 15 Nov 2016 at 6:46am
New Stakes-Winner for Double Danehill
Tara Madgwick - Monday, 14 November 2016
The
much maligned double Danehill cross featured last Saturday with a new
stakes-winner, so we thought it was timely to take a look at the stats with
yearling sales just around the corner. Three year-old filly Prompt Response posted her first stakes win when successful
in the Listed MRC Twilight Glow Stakes to become the 43rdstakes-winner worldwide to carry the double cross.
She is by the Redoute's Choice stallion Beneteau from a daughter of Exceed and
Excel, so has exactly the sort of 3 x 3 Danehill male line to male line pedigree
that many people now shy away from.
The stats for this exact pattern of line breeding are 45.9% winners to runners
with 322 winners from 702 runners including 10 stakes-winners headed by Hong Kong
Derby HK Gr 1winner Luger, who is by Choisir from a daughter of Danzero.
Luger also has a Group III winning full sister in Psychologist, while Prompt
Response has a Group III winning full brother in Prompt Return.
Prompt Response is the fourth Australian stakes-winner this season to carry the
double Danehill, the other three stakes-winners being Don't Doubt Mamma (3 x 4)
and Selenia (3 x 4), both by Not a Single Doubt and Ulmann (4 x 2), who is by
Sebring ( whose dam is by Flying Spur) from a daughter of Danehill.
The overall stats for double Danehill in any way shape or form within five
generations is 46.1 % winners to runners with 1048 winners from 2272 runners
including 43 stakes-winners headed by Group I winners Guelph, Astaire and
Southern Lord.
Love it or hate it, there is plenty of double Danehill out there and savvy
breeders that can crack the case on how to make it work will be the big winners
in time.
------------- Wisdom has been chasing me but I've always outrun it!
Posted By: jayzaa
Date Posted: 15 Nov 2016 at 12:29pm
My Keffelstein mare just had a positive to Rock Hero, so the foal will have Danehill in 4th remove on dam side and 3rd remove on sires side
------------- www.keffelstein.com
gotta live the dream
Posted By: .Swynford.
Date Posted: 01 Jan 2017 at 5:15pm
Posted By: goldey
Date Posted: 01 Jan 2017 at 7:03pm
Still very green by the looks Swynford
Posted By: Red Hare
Date Posted: 01 Jan 2017 at 10:59pm
There's a strong concentration of 'Barb'-line sires in the centre of Snitzson's pedigree.
Perhaps this diversity is a contributing factor here - and something that might make the Snitzel/Blackfriars cross work?... and, in turn, put King's Troop on the radar for WA breeders.
Posted By: .Swynford.
Date Posted: 02 Jan 2017 at 4:47pm
Many don't believe in duplicating Danzig in pedigrees either especially in this manner. However with Snitzel I am wondering if mares from the Grey Sovereign male line lower in the pedigree are an important part of the pedigree.
Posted By: .Swynford.
Date Posted: 13 Jan 2017 at 2:29pm
If I was looking at sending a mare to Snitzel, part of the equation would be finding one with Grey Sovereign on the mares male line lower in the pedigree.
Posted By: furious
Date Posted: 28 Jan 2017 at 2:05pm
That was a hard run she had Swynford. Thought for sure she collapse. Maybe the others aren't worth much.
Posted By: Carioca
Date Posted: 28 Jan 2017 at 2:12pm
Lot of strength down the bottom furious, Hermes, Sabaean, Blue Peter. just thinking out loud .
Posted By: furious
Date Posted: 28 Jan 2017 at 2:26pm
Yep but only a little thing and had to be hunted early. Usually that ends them off and she fought on particularly well so wonder about what she beat.
Posted By: Second Chance
Date Posted: 28 Jan 2017 at 2:30pm
It's probably worth mentioning that Patronella has also produced two stakes-winners to Geiger Counter where there's no Danehill or Grey Sovereign.
Posted By: .Swynford.
Date Posted: 28 Jan 2017 at 3:25pm
Patronella is also the dam of Aliyana Tide, a full sister to Teaspoon. Correct me if I am wrong but considering Snitzel leaves a Group winner once in every 23 runners then the mare definitely has something he likes.
Posted By: furious
Date Posted: 28 Jan 2017 at 3:33pm
Could account for Teaspoon running on. Aliyana Tide could go over a distance.
Posted By: Second Chance
Date Posted: 28 Jan 2017 at 3:54pm
.Swynford. wrote:
Patronella is also the dam of Aliyana Tide, a full sister to Teaspoon. Correct me if I am wrong but considering Snitzel leaves a Group winner once in every 23 runners then the mare definitely has something he likes.
Ability to produce you'd think, now that she's produced four stakes-winners from two such diverse stallions.
Interestingly Smytzer's Twist has also produced a stakes-winner by Redoute's Choice, so that makes three with Redoute's in the immediate sire line
Posted By: .Swynford.
Date Posted: 28 Jan 2017 at 4:01pm
I agree furious .
Its just a hunch I have that Snitzel (or more to the point Snippets ) might like mares with Grey Sovereign on their male line. Hinchinbrook may also.
This horse below by a different stallion but another with the pattern and one of the best from his sire Came off just a $500 service fee at the time.
Posted By: ianb
Date Posted: 29 Jan 2017 at 6:08pm
Yeah I try .....it's a hard expensive game, but we turn up each and every year trying to breed more winners.
We retired Come to Thee last year and gave her to a neighbour to be a grass eater, she has a Mahisara filly that is a fairly immature horse, which is a lot different from most of his stock. I borrowed a Danzero mare and have a filly out of her, I was given a NASD filly that didn't cycle last year and have decided to keep her for another year, her half by I am Invincible made $220,000 at Magics and I have another Court Command mare Darth Traya that will breed this season. We brought a well bred Haradasun filly that also decided to be barren, so will front up again and finance the vets world travels (hahaha) Plus old DiamondsnPearls, she has the best yearling I have ever bred selling at QTIS sale and a colt foal at foot that is spectacular.
Posted By: slowdown
Date Posted: 14 Feb 2017 at 4:03am
Six x Six Enhanced Pedigree Grid for
PATEENA ARENA (AUS) 2014 Bay filly by Needs Further - Gehenna, by Ladoni
NEEDS FURTHER (AUS) B. 2007 GW 3 wins f:22 r:6 w:2 SW:1
Encosta de Lago B. 1993 GW 3 wins f:1900 r:1610 w:1135 SW:112
Fairy King B. 1982 NP f:799 r:590 w:400 SW:73
1
Northern Dancer
Nearctic
Nearco
4
Lady Angela
14
Natalma
Native Dancer
5
Almahmoud
2
3
Fairy Bridge
Bold Reason
Hail To Reason
4
Lalun
19
Special
Forli
3
Thong
5
Shoal Creek Ch. 1988 Wnr 2 wins f:5 r:4 w:2 SW:1
Star Way
Star Appeal
Appiani
4
Sterna
5
New Way
Klairon
1
New Move
6
Rolls
Mr. Prospector
Raise A Native
8
Gold Digger
13
Grand Luxe
Sir Ivor
8
Fanfreluche
4
Crowned Glory B. 1997 GW 2 wins f:8 r:7 w:7 SW:2
Danehill B. 1986 GW 4 wins f:2414 r:2082 w:1630 SW:347
Danzig
1
Northern Dancer
Nearctic
14
Natalma
2
Pas de Nom
Admiral's Voyage
4
Petitioner
7
Razyana
5
His Majesty
Ribot
4
Flower Bowl
4
1
Spring Adieu
Buckpasser
1
Natalma
2
Significant Moment B. 1990 Pld f:10 r:9 w:6 SW:1
Bletchingly
Biscay
Star Kingdom
1
Magic Symbol
2
Coogee
Relic
8
Last Judgement
7
Lady Giselle
3
Nureyev
1
Northern Dancer
2
Special
5
Valderna
Val de Loir
5
Derna
16
GEHENNA (AUS) B. 2000 SW 5 wins f:8 r:8 w:6 SW:1
Ladoni B. 1992 GW 6 wins f:425 r:354 w:197 SW:7
Danehill B. 1986 GW 4 wins f:2414 r:2082 w:1630 SW:347
------------- Rebel - racing. Lionel - in work. Glory - spelling. Ray - spelling. A Wee Nip - in work.
Posted By: slowdown
Date Posted: 14 Feb 2017 at 4:04am
Stakes winner - Danehill 3f x 3m
------------- Rebel - racing. Lionel - in work. Glory - spelling. Ray - spelling. A Wee Nip - in work.
Posted By: goldey
Date Posted: 23 Feb 2017 at 8:26am
Article on Danehill inbreeding on breednet today if someone can share,Danehill dups has 2% stakes winners to runners based on their info today .
Posted By: djebel
Date Posted: 23 Feb 2017 at 8:43am
What was Star Kingdoms final tally for inbreeding to himself ?
As with Star Kingdom there is a lot of dross that distorts these types of figures.
Stakes Double for Double Danehill
Tara Madgwick - Thursday, 23 February 2017
Love it or hate it, we are seeing more and more of horses carrying a double cross of Danehill and two of them have won stakes races in the past week.
Ducimus - Grant Courtney
$700,000 Inglis Premier sale-topper Ducimus (2c Snitzel x Beauty World, by Danehill Dancer) opened his stakes account with a good win in the Listed VRC Talindert Stakes last Saturday and carries a close up 3 x 3 double cross.
Star Tasmanian juvenile Pateena Arena (2f Needs Further x Gehenna, by Ladoni) won her second stakes race when taking the Listed Gold Sovereign Stakes at Launbceston on Wednesday and is also 3 x 3 to Danehill. ( http://www.breednet.com.au/news/131461/Needs-Further-Filly-Wins-Gold-Sovereign" rel="nofollow - Read about her win here )
The current statistics for the double cross within five generations according to Arion are 46.4% winners to runners – 1165 winners from 2513 runners.
51 stakes-winners are bred this way headed by Group I winners Guelph, Southern Lord and the Northern Hemisphere bred Astaire.
------------- reductio ad absurdum
Posted By: bradjm
Date Posted: 23 Feb 2017 at 10:22am
46% winners to runners and 2.5% stakes winners to runners is hardly a ringing endorsement
Posted By: djebel
Date Posted: 23 Feb 2017 at 10:28am
bradjm wrote:
46% winners to runners and 2.5% stakes winners to runners is hardly a ringing endorsement
You would need to cut through the dross and look how often this kind of breeding is through quality stock.
As I asked, I wonder what Star Kingdoms percentages were for similar inbreeding ?
------------- reductio ad absurdum
Posted By: Flight
Date Posted: 23 Feb 2017 at 11:14am
I think you will find that the 2 x 2 duplications or closer were not a success yet the results appear to be a bit more consistent when spun out to generation three.
------------- “The probability of a certain set of circumstances coming together in a meaningful (or tragic) way is so low that it simply cannot be considered mere coincidence. ” ― V.C. King
Posted By: furious
Date Posted: 23 Feb 2017 at 11:21am
As Flight says with most things wait and be patient. After three or four generations give it a go. But the figures all have bad pedigrees and good pedigrees involved. If the female line didn't respond well to Danehill blood in the first place a second cross probably wont help either.
Posted By: Sworn Revenge
Date Posted: 23 Feb 2017 at 1:35pm
Flight wrote:
I think you will find that the 2 x 2 duplications or closer were not a success yet the results appear to be a bit more consistent when spun out to generation three.
Hope so Flight. I'm involved in a Reset mare ( Referendum ) that is in foal to Needs Further and we have Danehill 3 X 3 but sex balanced on the female side.
The stallion is doing a great job in my opinion at these early days.
------------- It's only called gambling when you lose
Posted By: Sworn Revenge
Date Posted: 23 Feb 2017 at 1:36pm
Hopefully Slowdown the half to Lady Lynette by NF sells well at Adelaide on the back of Pateena Arena
------------- It's only called gambling when you lose
Posted By: .Swynford.
Date Posted: 23 Feb 2017 at 2:22pm
I think to make a conclusion on only one duplication in a pedigree or come up with stats on it is actually useless information.
I love the mating of Referendum with Needs Further. I would start with the mares male line first and as we can see it is the same as the bottom line of the stallion. In my opinion this is perfect and the most powerful line breeding pattern there is. (Top line of the mare with the bottom line of the stallion.) Further up that male line is Sir Ivor and he appears as a brood-mare sire in Encosta De Lago. Again to my mind right on the button.
Danehill by himself doesn't interest me but as one can see there is so much more happening than just him
Posted By: slowdown
Date Posted: 23 Feb 2017 at 5:29pm
Sworn Revenge wrote:
Hopefully Slowdown the half to Lady Lynette by NF sells well at Adelaide on the back of Pateena Arena
yes hope so Sworn. there is a lot more to come from Cheryl(Pateena Arena). straight to the paddock then do it all again next year in the 3 year old races. licked the bin out last night. didn't leave an oat. tough as nails.
------------- Rebel - racing. Lionel - in work. Glory - spelling. Ray - spelling. A Wee Nip - in work.
Posted By: bradjm
Date Posted: 23 Feb 2017 at 5:35pm
djebel wrote:
bradjm wrote:
46% winners to runners and 2.5% stakes winners to runners is hardly a ringing endorsement
You would need to cut through the dross and look how often this kind of breeding is through quality stock.
As I asked, I wonder what Star Kingdoms percentages were for similar inbreeding ?
No you wouldn't otherwise you could pick any inbreeding and say oh it's good if you take out the crap ones.
Posted By: .Swynford.
Date Posted: 24 Feb 2017 at 6:18pm
Not a stakes winner yet but similar pedigree to those posted earlier in this thread, double Danehill. Important in my opinion is the second pattern and one that I think is emerging with Snippets and that is mares lower in the pedigree from the Grey Sovereign male line.
Posted By: goldey
Date Posted: 24 Feb 2017 at 7:01pm
Would the last example be a build up of Lady Susan via Rockefella and Danzig possibly ?
Posted By: goldey
Date Posted: 24 Feb 2017 at 7:05pm
Be interesting when it meets Bletchingly imo .
Posted By: goldey
Date Posted: 24 Feb 2017 at 7:09pm
There is a fair share of Bletchingly floating around the Standing stallions at Arrowfield Where Shalaa is to stand next season maybe a coincidence ?
Posted By: furious
Date Posted: 25 Feb 2017 at 6:48am
It's never a shame when Danzig and Bletchingly cross that 7a cross is found in Arrowfields best stallion so maybe they are going for similar blood. Not a close but still from the 7 family Lunchtime and Zamazaan seem to work well also. Just some with these crosses highlight the Australian turf in the last twenty odd years -
Canny Lad - Bletchingly x Lunchtime mare, Redoute's Choice - Danehill x Canny Lad mare, Elvstroem - Circles of Gold (second dam by Zamazaan) to Danehill, Choisir - Danehill Dancer x Lunchtime mare, Desert War - Desert King x Canny Lad mare, Shogun Lodge - Grand Lodge x Best Western mare, I am Invincible - Invincible Spirit x Canny Lad mare, Dodge - Canny Lad x Zamazaan mare, He's No Pie Eater - Canny Lad x Ascot Knight mare, Fashions Afield - Redoute's Choice x 2nd dam by Bletchingly
Snitzel - Redoute's Choice x Snippets mare, Stratum Star - Stratum x son of Snippet), Virage de Fortune - Anabaa x 2nd dam by Bletchingly and on and on
Posted By: Flight
Date Posted: 25 Feb 2017 at 7:16am
.Swynford. wrote:
I think to make a conclusion on only one duplication in a pedigree or come up with stats on it is actually useless information.
In most instances I would tend to agree with that statement however, in the case of Danehill, most of the resulting progeny were relatively well bred and given every opportunity.
The way I saw it, Danehill's best performers were from non-Northern Dancer line mares. My interpretation was that no more Natalma was needed. To then cross Danehill with Danehill made no sense to me.
------------- “The probability of a certain set of circumstances coming together in a meaningful (or tragic) way is so low that it simply cannot be considered mere coincidence. ” ― V.C. King
Posted By: furious
Date Posted: 25 Feb 2017 at 7:30am
Might make no sense Flight but they are struggling with all the best female lines have Danehill somewhere in the pedigree. We need an explosion of another sireline to help them all out.
Posted By: Isaac soloman
Date Posted: 25 Feb 2017 at 8:53am
A Shamardal line stallion?
Posted By: furious
Date Posted: 25 Feb 2017 at 9:22am
Who know's Isaac. Shamardal still has many lines of his blood in Australia with his damline producing Street Cry. Not sure about the Storm Cat line here. They show glimpses of greatness but not in great numbers so that is a minus. Also it is just another line of Northern Dancer and I think we need another line to step up - but which one!
Posted By: .Swynford.
Date Posted: 25 Feb 2017 at 9:25am
Flight wrote:
.Swynford. wrote:
I think to make a conclusion on only one duplication in a pedigree or come up with stats on it is actually useless information.
In most instances I would tend to agree with that statement however, in the case of Danehill, most of the resulting progeny were relatively well bred and given every opportunity.
The way I saw it, Danehill's best performers were from non-Northern Dancer line mares. My interpretation was that no more Natalma was needed. To then cross Danehill with Danehill made no sense to me.
Flight I think if you look at Danehill's Group One winners approx 1/3 were out of Northern Dancer male line mares
Posted By: furious
Date Posted: 25 Feb 2017 at 9:29am
While Redoute's and Fastnet have been great sires - they are not in the same class as their sire. So as he was foaled in 1986 we are almost due the next great. Hopefully sometime in the next 10 years. There was forty years between Star Kingdom and Danehill. They didn't cross in the sireline till back at Whalebone (GB) 1807.
So I'm expecting something not from the Northern Dancer line to surprise us.
Posted By: djebel
Date Posted: 25 Feb 2017 at 9:42am
It will almost certainly be a sire from the Northern Dancer tribe, Or a much lesser chance from the Native Dancer tribe.
Almost a zero chance from any other tribe.
#SYT
------------- reductio ad absurdum
Posted By: djebel
Date Posted: 25 Feb 2017 at 10:14am
SUMMER MONSOON (AUS)
Bay colt 2014
Stratum Bay 2002
Redoute's Choice Bay 1996
Danehill Bay 1986
Danzig Bay 1977
Northern Dancer Pas de Nom
1961 1968
2-d 7-a
Razyana Bay 1981
His Majesty Spring Adieu
1968 1974
4-d 2-d
Shantha's Choice Bay 1992
Canny Lad Brown 1987
Bletchingly Jesmond Lass
1970 1975
7-a 14>
Dancing Show Bay 1983
Nijinsky Show Lady
1967 1976
8-f 8-f
Bourgeois Chestnut 1991
Luskin Star Chestnut 1974
Kaoru Star Chestnut 1965
Star Kingdom Kaoru
1946 1955
1-g 31>
Promising Chestnut 1968
Idomeneo Modern Touch
1960 1963
2-i 2-e
Brave New World Chestnut 1980
Vain Chestnut 1966
Wilkes Elated
1952 1957
13-c A10
Undaunted Bay or brown 1972
Le Cordonnier Broadlea
1963 1956
2-n 4-n
Princess Narine Bay 2006
Red Ransom Bay 1987
Roberto Bay 1969
Hail to Reason Brown 1958
Turn-To Nothirdchance
1951 1948
1-w 4-n
Bramalea Bay or brown 1959
Nashua Rarelea
1952 1949
3-m 12-c
Arabia Bay 1977
Damascus Bay 1964
Sword Dancer Kerala
1956 1958
1-o 8-h
Christmas Wind Bay 1967
Nearctic Bally Free
1954 1960
14-c 6-b
Monsoon Wedding Bay 2001
Danehill Bay 1986
Danzig Bay 1977
Northern Dancer Pas de Nom
1961 1968
2-d 7-a
Razyana Bay 1981
His Majesty Spring Adieu
1968 1974
4-d 2-d
Shantha's Choice Bay 1992
Canny Lad Brown 1987
Bletchingly Jesmond Lass
1970 1975
7-a 14>
Dancing Show Bay 1983
Nijinsky Show Lady
1967 1976
8-f 8-f
Ancestor duplications:
Danehill
3m x 3f
Shantha's Choice
3m x 3f
------------- reductio ad absurdum
Posted By: djebel
Date Posted: 25 Feb 2017 at 10:20am
Not quite inbreeding to Danehill but still -
SUMMER PASSAGE (AUS)
Bay colt 2014
Snitzel Bay 2002
Redoute's Choice Bay 1996
Danehill Bay 1986
Danzig Bay 1977
Northern Dancer Pas de Nom
1961 1968
2-d 7-a
Razyana Bay 1981
His Majesty Spring Adieu
1968 1974
4-d 2-d
Shantha's Choice Bay 1992
Canny Lad Brown 1987
Bletchingly Jesmond Lass
1970 1975
7-a 14>
Dancing Show Bay 1983
Nijinsky Show Lady
1967 1976
8-f 8-f
Snippets' Lass Bay 1993
Snippets Bay 1984
Lunchtime Chestnut 1970
Silly Season Great Occasion
1962 1965
1-g 7-f
Easy Date Bay 1977
Grand Chaudiere Scampering
1968 1970
19-b 20-a
Snow Finch Bay 1984
Storm Bird Bay 1978
Northern Dancer South Ocean
1961 1967
2-d 4-j
A Realgirl Bay 1976
In Reality Secret Verdict
1964 1966
21-a 2-c
Subsequent Bay 2008
Encosta de Lago Bay 1993
Fairy King Bay 1982
Northern Dancer Bay 1961
Nearctic Natalma
1954 1957
14-c 2-d
Fairy Bridge Bay 1975
Bold Reason Special
1968 1969
19-b 5-h
Shoal Creek Chestnut 1988
Star Way Chestnut 1977
Star Appeal New Way
1970 1970
5-d 6-e
Rolls Chestnut 1984
Mr Prospector Grand Luxe
1970 1974
13-c 4-g
Sequin Bay 1997
Lure Bay 1989
Danzig Bay 1977
Northern Dancer Pas de Nom
1961 1968
2-d 7-a
Endear Bay 1982
Alydar Chappaquiddick
1975 1968
9-c 3-o
Subterfuge Brown 1993
Machiavellian Bay or brown 1987
Mr Prospector Coup de Folie
1970 1982
13-c 2-d
Sandy Island Bay 1981
Mill Reef Sayonara
1968 1965
22-d 16-c
Ancestor duplications:
Northern Dancer
5m,5m x 4m,5m
Danzig
4m x 4m
Mr Prospector
x 5f,5m
------------- reductio ad absurdum
Posted By: furious
Date Posted: 25 Feb 2017 at 10:27am
As I'm talking about the next breed shaper probably won't be ND tribe djebel. They shape the world now.
Posted By: Ticino
Date Posted: 25 Feb 2017 at 7:28pm
Hello,
Summer Passage, carries Danehill and Machiavelian (Sire of his third dam), both Sires are related,
Coup de Folie is 3x3 Almahmoud, who is the dam of Natalma, too. Btw, from the same damline as "Northwest Passage".
The dam sire Encosta de Lago, his damsire Star Way traces via Star Appeal, surprise, surprise to Dark Ronald, via Son-in-Law. The only other male Strain of Dark Ronald extended I know so far outside Germany. Btw, Magpie was a Dark Ronald son exported to Australia.
Maybe you give a try to the Bahram male stirp of Blandford in Fiorente (by Monsun). In Europe he and his sons are still very sought after as outcross of all the ND male lines.
Best regards, Ticino
Posted By: furious
Date Posted: 26 Feb 2017 at 6:00am
You never know Ticino Fiorente had 198 foals from his first crops.
Posted By: .Swynford.
Date Posted: 01 Mar 2017 at 4:29am
When a second pattern is present like this I think the double of Danehill is a huge PLUS
Posted By: furious
Date Posted: 26 Mar 2017 at 12:51pm
Still got the More than Ready/Flying Spur thing going only in reverse.
Posted By: djebel
Date Posted: 26 Mar 2017 at 12:53pm
Skating, What a great matriarch.
------------- reductio ad absurdum
Posted By: Red Hare
Date Posted: 15 Apr 2017 at 11:50pm
Champagne Stakes winner, The Mission is another one for the 'second pattern' file... but which one is the second?
He can't be the first foal bred on the Choisir/Redoute's Choice cross (surely?). So, if the reflective patterns in Great Selection and Canny Lad aren't the key, is it as simple as Danehill on top with MTR in the bottom half? Thus making the Great Selection/Canny Lad nick the 'second pattern' and the Danehill duplication an added bonus?
Fair dinkum, the should've called him Nan's Veggie Soup. Everything in the pot, no idea which flavour is which.
Posted By: Red Hare
Date Posted: 16 Apr 2017 at 12:09am
Red Hare wrote:
He can't be the first foal bred on the Choisir/Redoute's Choice cross (surely?)
The free wiki-style info at Pedigreequery shows a grand total of three runners, The Mission included, from (at a guess) 10 years worth of opportunity. There must be more.
Posted By: furious
Date Posted: 16 Apr 2017 at 8:25am
Well Choisir and Redoute's Choice are very close in genetic make up. They have more than just the Danehill cross. He is the first winner from 8 foals and 6 starters from 6 different mares - according to equineline.
It could be that there are no other close crosses other than the Danehill 3 x 3. Some of the others may have had other lines of Biscay or Lunchtime or even more Danehill blood.
This is close to close Danehill/Lunchtime/Biscay (the big three) in both but Lunchtime and Biscay are off in the 6th line in the mare My Amelia. If you had say a second dam by Snippets or Canny Lad (and alot of Canny Lad mares went to Redoute's Choice) you would have a far busier pedigree and that could create troubles.
Posted By: slowdown
Date Posted: 20 Apr 2017 at 12:52pm
Unlikely Pin Up Boy
Tara Madgwick - Thursday, 20 April 2017
When Guelph won the Group I ATC Champagne Stakes in 2013, horses bred with a double cross of legendary sire Danehill had found their pin-up girl, but it's taken four more years for a pin-up boy to emerge.
The Mission
That horse is Paul Perry's headstrong colt The Mission, who led and dominated from the front to win the Group I ATC Champagne Stakes at Randwick last Saturday.
By Choisir from a daughter of Redoute's Choice, The Mission is the fourth Group I winner to carry the double cross and is only the second in Australia after Guelph.
Current statistics for the double Danehill courtesy of Arion show 46.7% winners to runners (1221 winners from 2614 starters) with 57 stakes-winners.
Among those stakes-winners are current season two year-olds Gunnison, Single Bullet, Debellatio, Ducimus, Pateena Arena, Seannie and of course The Mission.
The Mission is an interesting pin-up boy for a number of reasons starting with his pedigree.
Choisir
The double Danehill configuration comes in many different patterns, but 3 x 3 in the male line pattern like The Mission has until now thought to be one of the least successful.
In his favour may well be Choisir.
When you run a report for the double Danehill cross, but look at only those involving Choisir the statistics improve markedly.
We find 51.3 % winners to runners with eight stakes-winners making for 4% stakes-winners to runners which is double what we find when just looking at the straight double Danehill.
Another factor making The Mission a somewhat unexpected star is his purchase price and yearling picture, neither would suggest star in the making!
The Mission as a yearling - a work in progress
Consigned to the Magic Millions by Edinglassie Stud, The Mission was only good enough for Book Two and was picked up by Paul Perry for just $32,500 making him the cheapest colt by Choisir sold at the Gold Coast in 2016.
As you can see in his yearling picture, The Mission was a work in progress and it's a credit to Paul Perry that he saw the diamond in the rough.
Young thoroughbreds go through growth spurts at various stages of their development and it's fair to day The Mission was not seen at his best last January.
Given his pedigree (the iffy double Danehill) and his type (work in progress), it's no wonder that this Group I winner was picked up cheaply and has now won over $400,000.
------------- Rebel - racing. Lionel - in work. Glory - spelling. Ray - spelling. A Wee Nip - in work.
Posted By: Red Hare
Date Posted: 20 Apr 2017 at 3:02pm
Two of those Choisir SWs mentioned above are Luger & Psychologist, out of the Danzero mare Miss Conception.
Posted By: Swynford
Date Posted: 18 Jul 2017 at 6:18am
The report on inbreeding to Danehill (foaled in 1986) reads like this.
Sex
Named
Foals
Rnrs
Runs
Wnrs
Wnrs/
Rnrs
Wins
GW
G1W
SW
Colts
1287
882
10370
427
48.4%
1066
4
2
14
Fillies
1238
795
7754
324
40.8%
730
12
1
23
Total
2525
1677
18124
751
44.8%
1796
16
3
37
Danehill as a stallion SW to runners = 16.7%
Danehill inbreeding -SW to named foals= 1.4%
Danehill inbreeding -SW to runners = 2.2%
Savabeel (leading NZ sire) SW to runners= 9.4%
Street Cry (leading Aus sire) SW to runners= 8.0%
My theory on nicks is that a certain type of stallion ( horse size
and shape, speed, balance, lung capacity, ability) compliment a certain
type of mare (horse size and shape, speed, balance, lung capacity,
ability).