Pierro
Printed From: Thoroughbred Village
Category: Horse Breeding - Public Forums
Forum Name: Stallions
Forum Description: Stallion appraisals and trends
URL: https://forum.thoroughbredvillage.com.au/forum_posts.asp?TID=44545
Printed Date: 29 Mar 2024 at 9:59am Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.05 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Pierro
Posted By: khaki
Subject: Pierro
Date Posted: 22 Apr 2013 at 11:49am
88k Darley - looks like someone has accidently released this.
http://www.darley.com.au/magazine/issue1/5/" rel="nofollow - http://www.darley.com.au/magazine/issue1/5/
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Replies:
Posted By: Buckpasser
Date Posted: 22 Apr 2013 at 11:54am
Fairly sure that's an advert for Lohnro.
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Posted By: khaki
Date Posted: 22 Apr 2013 at 11:59am
doh - bloody deceiving that one...
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Posted By: rusty nails
Date Posted: 22 Apr 2013 at 12:29pm
Interesting that Darley would feature someone else's first year Stallion to promote one of theirs.
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Posted By: furious
Date Posted: 22 Apr 2013 at 12:30pm
Yes they are using the progeny to advertise the stallions. Flip through.
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Posted By: rusty nails
Date Posted: 22 Apr 2013 at 12:40pm
I did realise that. My point was that they decided to feature Pierro despite knowing he would in all likelihood be competing against them in the marketplace this season. It is normal practice to never even mention the names of your competition in marketing/advertising.
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Posted By: Lordy
Date Posted: 22 Apr 2013 at 6:12pm
rusty nails wrote:
I did realise that.My point was that they decided to feature Pierro despite knowing he would in all likelihood be competing against them in the marketplace this season. It is normal practice to never even mention the names of your competition in marketing/advertising.
| Not sure why you would think that way. It can only be a good thing for your stallion if he produces another champion even if that horse is heading to another stud. Do you think they would avoid mentioning All To Hard when marketing Casino Prince?
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Posted By: subastral
Date Posted: 22 Apr 2013 at 6:18pm
So Pierro retired because he was scared of ATH in the All-Aged. What a cotton wool champ, trainer and owner mollycoddled horse all through its career, and only raced older horses this prep as it couldn't take on the best horses, 5.5. Star and Super Cool. Pathetic. *Disclaimer, I don't believe 1 word of what I just wrote, just wanted to see what it was like to bag great horses as many on here did with you know who.
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Posted By: rusty nails
Date Posted: 22 Apr 2013 at 6:30pm
Lordy wrote:
rusty nails wrote:
I did realise that.My point was that they decided to feature Pierro despite knowing he would in all likelihood be competing against them in the marketplace this season. It is normal practice to never even mention the names of your competition in marketing/advertising.
| Not sure why you would think that way. It can only be a good thing for your stallion if he produces another champion even if that horse is heading to another stud. Do you think they would avoid mentioning All To Hard when marketing Casino Prince? |
Good point, but a little different IMO. What else can they promote with CP? Lonrho has plenty to brag about,without mentioning Pierro,Casino Prince.... not so much.
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Posted By: Gee Gee
Date Posted: 25 Apr 2013 at 9:15pm
It's very nearly a dundeel.
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Posted By: EverydayImShufflin
Date Posted: 25 Apr 2013 at 10:09pm
I'm hearing $25-30 million. Two farms left in the running, unsurprisingly both Hunter Valley based. One Australian brand and the other an internationally owned farm.
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Posted By: Gee Gee
Date Posted: 26 Apr 2013 at 12:17am
Yep 2 farms! ones is favoured pending a few conditions.
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Posted By: Sequi
Date Posted: 26 Apr 2013 at 11:46pm
Posted By: BAZZ
Date Posted: 27 Apr 2013 at 12:14am
Priced between 80 and 120. Either way far too expensive
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Posted By: Gee Gee
Date Posted: 27 Apr 2013 at 12:59am
Boom!
Will get some great mares!
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Posted By: orpen
Date Posted: 27 Apr 2013 at 10:50am
Pierro's 1/2 brother needs to lift his game. A maiden after 11 starts is not a great look on the stallion page. At least All Too Hard doesn't have to carry the family.
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Posted By: bradjm
Date Posted: 27 Apr 2013 at 11:18am
id go to his old man before him.
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Posted By: furious
Date Posted: 27 Apr 2013 at 12:58pm
Most of the greats have lesser family members. Even great mares produce non winners. Lots of different combinations of genes they can inherit afterall. Just look at Danehill one of our greats.
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Posted By: Ringlock
Date Posted: 30 Apr 2013 at 12:13pm
Posted By: djebel
Date Posted: 30 Apr 2013 at 3:15pm
I want to know from my more learned friends on the forum, Why is it that if Pierro went to stud with the exact same 2 and 3yo record PLUS trained on at 4 to win a Melbourne Cup and god damn it an Ascot Gold Cup why would his value be diminished ?
------------- reductio ad absurdum
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Posted By: Sequi
Date Posted: 30 Apr 2013 at 3:47pm
Posted By: Buckpasser
Date Posted: 30 Apr 2013 at 4:37pm
If he won an Ascot Gold Cup his fee would be 20 k. If he won Melbourne Cup without Ascot then 30 k. Obviously made up figures but they are not stallion races, they would not prove he has any of the qualities a breeder for sale ring or track would chase and would require, by the very nature of getting sufficient miles into any horses legs, him to be beaten or have all brilliance trained out of him. Throw in him being an Australian bred colt and therefore having reached maturity earlier with a heavier body to be maintained and the risk of him going amiss increases.
Looking at him and Reliable Man, who do have similar pedigree structure, neither really have the physical characteristics that the pedigree would show they should. Reliable Man actually looks like a Petingo to me while Pierro, from the first time I saw him as a weanling, looks to be a proper sprinter/ miler, maybe out to 2000m at best. That in itsellf makes you think that Lohnro must be the influence but he doesn't look like a proper one of those either.
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Posted By: Lordy
Date Posted: 30 Apr 2013 at 6:14pm
$77k, wow. There are a number of elite proven stallions in that price category. Only $10k less than Lonhro himself.
I have little doubt people will pay big overs for his first crop of yearlings so price maybe fair enough.
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Posted By: djebel
Date Posted: 30 Apr 2013 at 6:49pm
Buckpasser wrote:
If he won an Ascot Gold Cup his fee would be 20 k. If he won Melbourne Cup without Ascot then 30 k. Obviously made up figures but they are not stallion races, they would not prove he has any of the qualities a breeder for sale ring or track would chase and would require, by the very nature of getting sufficient miles into any horses legs, him to be beaten or have all brilliance trained out of him. Throw in him being an Australian bred colt and therefore having reached maturity earlier with a heavier body to be maintained and the risk of him going amiss increases.
Looking at him and Reliable Man, who do have similar pedigree structure, neither really have the physical characteristics that the pedigree would show they should. Reliable Man actually looks like a Petingo to me while Pierro, from the first time I saw him as a weanling, looks to be a proper sprinter/ miler, maybe out to 2000m at best. That in itsellf makes you think that Lohnro must be the influence but he doesn't look like a proper one of those either. |
His female pedigree is 100% European.
What he achieved as a 2yo goes against the grain of his pedigree. He really should come into his own as a 4yo+
The sireline is more known for its 4yos+
I am not sure where in the pedigree of Pierro he would get a distinctly Aussie type about him ?
------------- reductio ad absurdum
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Posted By: ianb
Date Posted: 30 Apr 2013 at 6:52pm
Lordy, if Paul Willetts said to Rob Heathcote, I have found a Pierro colt that we must have , don't lose on him, would you race one
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Posted By: furious
Date Posted: 30 Apr 2013 at 7:50pm
I wish something like Widden or Arrowfield had got him. Not because they are Australian owned and run just because they have stood similar type stallions and made them work. Maybe Coolmore hasn't had a Golden Slipper winner yet so I could be holding it against them unfairly.
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Posted By: Buckpasser
Date Posted: 30 Apr 2013 at 7:53pm
Not sure where I indicated where Pierro was or wasn't a 'distinct Aussie type'. I would say, less Danehill and Star Kingdom he is a vey Australian type, he has strength, depth, length, good bone, gaskin, forearm etc with a well angled shoulder. It is well established ( Ker has good, easily to deciiminate data) that shows that Australian environmental conditions have a significant effect on the development and physic of our horses even with the same genetics, at least in the good ones. Think Charltons recent comments, Johnstons anti Scenic Blast diatribe etc to see how English trainers as of yet haven't comprehended that environmental factors that change the development, for better or worse, of the same genetics.
The point I was making on Pierro and Reliable Man is that the geno and pheno don't match up, at least within the commonality in the tabulated pedigree but both still, via other forebears, have gained the required ability to run. The pedigree elements in common are often deemed in Australia to have failed individually, Sadlers, Mill Reef etc. when these two horses do not meet what would be expected physically they perform well under our conditions.
I am sure winning an Ascot Gold Cup must be a wonderful thrill for the relevant owner each year but I am unsure what qualities those horses possess that would work in Australia. We have seen many predictable failures, Dylan Thomas, tiger hill, giants causeway to name a few who were wonderful racehorses but nothing in their type or racing style suggested they would mesh with our brood mares, training, racing styles etc.
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Posted By: songline
Date Posted: 30 Apr 2013 at 8:00pm
Fee a bit high? More than SYT last year!
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Posted By: Slipper
Date Posted: 30 Apr 2013 at 8:26pm
[QUOTE=songline] Fee a bit high? More than SYT last year!
Ridiculous if only for that reason. As good as he was, I don't think there'd be too many people who would say they believe that, when compared to SYT, Pierro was the better of the two.
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Posted By: Fast forward
Date Posted: 30 Apr 2013 at 8:51pm
So do you go to the Champion or for similar money to his sire who has proven he can throw a Champion. Personally I'd go the proven option. I like stallions that CAN throw a top horse.
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Posted By: Lordy
Date Posted: 30 Apr 2013 at 10:52pm
ianb wrote:
Lordy, if Paul Willetts said to Rob Heathcote, I have found a Pierro colt that we must have , don't lose on him, would you race one |
I'd need more to go on than that
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Posted By: Lordy
Date Posted: 30 Apr 2013 at 10:54pm
Fast forward wrote:
So do you go to the Champion or for similar money to his sire who has proven he can throw a Champion. Personally I'd go the proven option. I like stallions that CAN throw a top horse. |
I'd say Lonhro fits the criteria for both. No brainer for me.
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Posted By: kavg
Date Posted: 03 May 2013 at 3:47pm
77K does seem steep for an unproven sire when you can go to Lonhro.
I'm unsure how Pierro will go as all of us are.
He could go two ways-be similar to grand-dad or dad-Octagonal and Lonhro respectively and be a good sire without setting records. Lonhro has had more stakeswinners and has arguably done a better job than Octagonal but Lonhro has only had the one real champion in Pierro at this stage. He still has time to improve this count. Octagonal also only had the one real champion in Lonhro and very doubtful he'll add to that now. So will Pierro continue this trend?
On the other hand he could go the great-granddad way and become a super sire like Zabeel. He sure has the pedigree to be a super sire and even a sire of stayers like Zabeel. Even though Pierro wasn't tested beyond 2040m, Zabeel arguably wasn't really at his best at 2000m and was better at 1600m. Hard to predict how he'll go as pedigree doesn't mean anything as Octagonal should have been better as a sire based on pedigree.
------------- Prejudice is an emotional attachment to ignorance. DiEM25 for the world.
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Posted By: bradjm
Date Posted: 03 May 2013 at 5:27pm
Champion is a big tag to bandy around, most very good stallions are lucky to get one.
A lot of champions actually come from underated stallions.
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Posted By: Lordy
Date Posted: 03 May 2013 at 6:26pm
kavg wrote:
He could go two ways-be similar to grand-dad or dad-Octagonal and Lonhro respectively and be a good sire without setting records. Lonhro has had more stakeswinners and has arguably done a better job than Octagonal but Lonhro has only had the one real champion in Pierro at this stage. He still has time to improve this count. Octagonal also only had the one real champion in Lonhro and very doubtful he'll add to that now. So will Pierro continue this trend?
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Lonhro has 70% winners to runners and nearly 8% stakeswinners. His numbers are up there with the best of them. of course he'd want to be considering Darley listed him at $110k last season. His numbers dropped and they are back to a more realistic figure now.
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Posted By: kavg
Date Posted: 03 May 2013 at 6:46pm
Lordy, I wasn't trying to denigrate Lonhro's achievements at stud. I was comparing everything back to Zabeel. As I said, Lonhro has a few years to go and may end up emulating his grandsire but I was ultimately comparing Occie and Lonhro to Zabeel as sires of stayers ala Zabeel but I didn't make that clear in my post.
Brad-maybe I should have stated, instead of champion, siring a horse the equal or better than themselves. Zabeel did that a number of times, whereas Occie and Lonhro have only done that once so far.
------------- Prejudice is an emotional attachment to ignorance. DiEM25 for the world.
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Posted By: Gay3
Date Posted: 07 Jan 2015 at 8:16pm
Pierro is down for 144 live foals, does anyone have an opinion on them as yet?
------------- Wisdom has been chasing me but I've always outrun it!
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Posted By: runnerdance
Date Posted: 07 Jan 2015 at 9:04pm
I am personally luke warm about him but someone I rate very highly in the industry says they are top shelf. This particular person put me into IAI for 2 noms on the back of his first foals.
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Posted By: runnerdance
Date Posted: 07 Jan 2015 at 9:14pm
Further to that I didn't find Pierro himself a super imposing stallion in the flesh physically. He can't 'fail' by way of numbers and quality of mares he got but I can't see him being a breed shaper. Having said that been wrong b4 and besides the truth is I can't afford to use him even if I wanted to
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Posted By: Ringlock
Date Posted: 24 Oct 2015 at 5:31pm
Understand Pierro has undergone at least one operation this week after almost succumbing to a colic attack
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Posted By: whitt0
Date Posted: 24 Oct 2015 at 5:54pm
yes - out for the season I believe
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Posted By: Beliskner
Date Posted: 24 Oct 2015 at 6:55pm
If he ends up being a bust, this will let a lot of breeders off the hook.
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Posted By: acacia alba
Date Posted: 25 Oct 2015 at 1:12am
could we at least have some compassion for a great race horse in dire straits ?or is it all about the holy dollar ???
------------- animals before people.
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Posted By: Majestic
Date Posted: 29 Oct 2015 at 7:36pm
Posted By: whitt0
Date Posted: 29 Oct 2015 at 7:41pm
Posted By: acacia alba
Date Posted: 29 Oct 2015 at 8:44pm
You mean he has died ??? Thats terrible if true.
------------- animals before people.
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Posted By: djebel
Date Posted: 29 Oct 2015 at 8:48pm
It would be all over twitter by now if it was true.
------------- reductio ad absurdum
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Posted By: ianb
Date Posted: 16 Nov 2015 at 2:57pm
Heard the same. Rumours are rumours. Tragic if true
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Posted By: Biggles
Date Posted: 17 Nov 2015 at 1:05pm
Not true!
------------- Flying High
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Posted By: acacia alba
Date Posted: 17 Nov 2015 at 7:29pm
I heard from a source usually knows, that its not true.
------------- animals before people.
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Posted By: djebel
Date Posted: 29 Dec 2015 at 7:45pm
------------- reductio ad absurdum
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Posted By: MichaelM
Date Posted: 29 Dec 2015 at 9:59pm
Posted By: Roidz
Date Posted: 03 Apr 2016 at 11:07pm
With a few having gone through the sales now what do people think of them?
There's a colt at the breaker I work for; he is a spitting image of his old man - and wow he can move!
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Posted By: djebel
Date Posted: 25 Apr 2017 at 3:26pm
Quinella at Randwick.
Both looking quality COLTS.
------------- reductio ad absurdum
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Posted By: djebel
Date Posted: 25 Apr 2017 at 3:26pm
PIERATA (AUS) | Bay colt 2014 | |
Pierro Bay 2009 | Lonhro Brown 1998 | Octagonal Brown 1992 | Zabeel Bay 1986 | Sir Tristram Lady Giselle | 1971 1982 | 6-e 16-c | Eight Carat Brown 1975 | Pieces of Eight Klairessa | 1963 1969 | 3-o 9-c | Shadea Bay 1988 | Straight Strike Bay or brown 1977 | Mr Prospector Bend Not | 1970 1972 | 13-c 11> | Concia Bay 1978 | First Consul My Tricia | 1970 1974 | 5-f 8> | Miss Right Note Grey 2003 | Daylami Grey 1994 | Doyoun Bay 1985 | Mill Reef Dumka | 1968 1971 | 22-d 21-a | Daltawa Grey 1989 | Miswaki Damana | 1978 1981 | 16-g 9-e | Sky Song Bay 1997 | Sadler's Wells Bay 1981 | Northern Dancer Fairy Bridge | 1961 1975 | 2-d 5-h | Criquette Bay 1990 | Shirley Heights Ghislaine | 1975 1981 | 1-l 1-t | November Flight Bay 2001 | Flying Spur Bay 1992 | Danehill Bay 1986 | Danzig Bay 1977 | Northern Dancer Pas de Nom | 1961 1968 | 2-d 7-a | Razyana Bay 1981 | His Majesty Spring Adieu | 1968 1974 | 4-d 2-d | Rolls Chestnut 1984 | Mr Prospector Bay 1970 | Raise a Native Gold Digger | 1961 1962 | 8-f 13-c | Grand Luxe Chestnut 1974 | Sir Ivor Fanfreluche | 1965 1967 | 8-g 4-g | November Song Bay 1995 | Zabeel Bay 1986 | Sir Tristram Bay 1971 | Sir Ivor Isolt | 1965 1961 | 8-g 6-e | Lady Giselle Bay 1982 | Nureyev Valderna | 1977 1972 | 5-h 16-c | Chorus Star Brown 1982 | Kaoru Star Chestnut 1965 | Star Kingdom Kaoru | 1946 1955 | 1-g 31> | Century Miss Brown 1976 | Century Gay Chorus | 1969 1966 | 20> 29> |
| Ancestor duplications: | Zabeel | 4m x 3f | | Mr Prospector | 5m x 4f | | Northern Dancer | 5m x 5m | | | | Sir Ivor | x 5f,5m |
------------- reductio ad absurdum
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Posted By: djebel
Date Posted: 25 Apr 2017 at 3:28pm
Pierro (AUS) Bay 2009 | Lonhro Brown 1998 | Octagonal Brown 1992 | Zabeel Bay 1986 | Sir Tristram Lady Giselle | 1971 1982 | 6-e 16-c | Eight Carat Brown 1975 | Pieces of Eight Klairessa | 1963 1969 | 3-o 9-c | Shadea Bay 1988 | Straight Strike Bay or brown 1977 | Mr Prospector Bend Not | 1970 1972 | 13-c 11> | Concia Bay 1978 | First Consul My Tricia | 1970 1974 | 5-f 8> | Miss Right Note Grey 2003 | Daylami Grey 1994 | Doyoun Bay 1985 | Mill Reef Dumka | 1968 1971 | 22-d 21-a | Daltawa Grey 1989 | Miswaki Damana | 1978 1981 | 16-g 9-e | Sky Song Bay 1997 | Sadler's Wells Bay 1981 | Northern Dancer Fairy Bridge | 1961 1975 | 2-d 5-h | Criquette Bay 1990 | Shirley Heights Ghislaine | 1975 1981 | 1-l 1-t | Scattered (AUS) Chestnut 2005 | Tale of the Cat Bay or brown 1994 | Storm Cat Bay or brown 1983 | Storm Bird Bay 1978 | Northern Dancer South Ocean | 1961 1967 | 2-d 4-j | Terlingua Chestnut 1976 | Secretariat Crimson Saint | 1970 1969 | 2-s 8-c | Yarn Bay or brown 1987 | Mr Prospector Bay 1970 | Raise a Native Gold Digger | 1961 1962 | 8-f 13-c | Narrate Bay or brown 1980 | Honest Pleasure State | 1973 1974 | 11-f 2-f | Fragmentation Bay 2000 | Snippets Bay 1984 | Lunchtime Chestnut 1970 | Silly Season Great Occasion | 1962 1965 | 1-g 7-f | Easy Date Bay 1977 | Grand Chaudiere Scampering | 1968 1970 | 19-b 20-a | Southern Sprinter Bay 1990 | Southern Appeal Bay 1983 | Valid Appeal Southern Gem | 1972 1973 | 2-c 26> | Ceres Mist Grey 1982 | Plush Racice | 1971 1968 | 22-b 7-d |
| Ancestor duplications: | Mr Prospector | 5m x 4f | | Northern Dancer | 5m x 5m |
------------- reductio ad absurdum
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Posted By: goldey
Date Posted: 25 Apr 2017 at 11:01pm
On a positive note, that winner lifts his winners to runners to 18 %, much better than the 13 % at the start of the day.
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Posted By: Sir Gov
Date Posted: 10 Sep 2017 at 10:34pm
I suspect many are ready to declare this boy a flop.
Now 1 win from 20 starters in his 2nd season.........that is just too bad to be true
Tulip the flag bearer - but overall now sits at 10 winners from 46 starters.
Cannot even be close to a full book I would imagine
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Posted By: Kimberley Mine
Date Posted: 25 Oct 2017 at 1:08pm
And now up to 28% winners from starters this season, with two stakes winners. What a difference one month makes.
I've noticed in the articles written about his winners that more than one trainer says they take a few runs to figure things out, and I've also noticed that the longer they run, the more they win.
Pissaro -- 1600m Pinot -- 1800m, 2000m Plato -- 1600m Pierrocity -- 1600m 3/4 brothers Action and Arcadia Prince -- 1400m Meazza -- 1450m
My feeling--based on the way he looks in pictures and how his foals are running better as they run longer--is that he's throwing to his dam line.
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Posted By: furious
Date Posted: 25 Oct 2017 at 2:13pm
We all looked to So You Think for the stayers. Maybe this boy has what it takes to get the Oaks and Derby winners. Heres hoping that the Sir Tristram line has another generation. Picked Pinot out of the sales to follow - along with others who as yet haven't raced or had limited starts. She was easy. Light and out of a classy middle distance mare yet only sold for $200K. Maybe failed exrays or people on spend big on sprinters. She's still got a way to get $200K but with black type she's done all she really has to for her families pedigree page.
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Posted By: Kimberley Mine
Date Posted: 27 Oct 2017 at 5:05pm
Well, one reason he might be getting foals who want to run long is that quite a few are linebred to either Zabeel or Sir Tristram:
Pinot -- dam by Zabeel Cabierro -- 2nd dam by Zabeel Pierata -- 2nd dam by Zabeel (plus Sir Ivor via Grand Luxe) Pissaro -- dam by Galileo, 2nd dam by Grosvenor Pierrocity -- 2nd dam by Sovereign Red (by Sir T) Satin Slipper -- 3rd dam by Kaapstad (plus Sir Ivor via Grand Luxe) Noviero -- 3rd dam by Sir Tristram China Gale -- 3rd dam by Grosvenor (plus Sir Ivor via Grand Luxe) Pierone -- dam by Filante (NZ) whose dam is by Sir Tristram Princess Pierro (placed as a 2yo) -- 3rd dam by Bates Motel, by Sir Ivor
That's 9 out of his 20 winners so far, and 3 of his 5 stakes horses. If you count Tulip's 3rd dam Grand Luxe by Sir Ivor and Princess Pierro, that's fully half of his winners and 80% of his stakes horses so far are linebred to Sir Ivor, Sir Tristram, or Zabeel AND 60% of his stakes horses have Sir Ivor through the Ciboulette family. It's quite astounding to see how strong that cross is even at this early stage.
Pissaro and Levendi also both trace back to the Sound Reason (CAN) mare Sellou.
Again, my gut feeling is that he's throwing to his damline and his damline REALLY REALLY REALLY likes Sir Ivor!
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Posted By: Majestic
Date Posted: 27 Oct 2017 at 8:52pm
Sellou was s 3/4 sister to a horse my father raced called I Will. I have tried to buy s couple of descendants of this family line over the years unsuccessfully. Always had faith in the line, including Roman Emperor.
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Posted By: furious
Date Posted: 04 Nov 2017 at 12:12pm
Well at least we can say now that Pierro can certainly get a good galloper. Just a bit different to most Golden Slipper winners. His seem to want a mile plus but then his pedigree suggested that.
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Posted By: furious
Date Posted: 04 Nov 2017 at 12:19pm
Nice to see that Redoute's Choice cross also as with Snitzel and Not a Single Doubt two of our best sire's by him we now have a sire firing who crosses well.
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Posted By: Kimberley Mine
Date Posted: 04 Nov 2017 at 1:33pm
He's getting runners, which he SHOULD be doing with the mares he saw....and in saying that, the only other stallion in his crop who is getting the same level of consistent class is Reliable Man. They're going up against horses by Redoute's Choice, Fastnet Rock, Snitzel, Exceed and Excel, and Street Cry, and holding their own.
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Posted By: Kimberley Mine
Date Posted: 12 Nov 2017 at 4:23am
Finished out the Flemington carnival with three stakes winners and one more running 4th in two stakes, with all of them progressing as they stretched out in distance.
Pinot's race was the most impressive...but I'm curious to see how Pissaro will turn out after a spell and another 3-4 months of maturing.
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Posted By: djebel
Date Posted: 18 Nov 2017 at 12:36pm
PIERROCITY (AUS) | Bay filly 2014 | |
Pierro Bay 2009 | Lonhro Brown 1998 | Octagonal Brown 1992 | Zabeel Bay 1986 | Sir Tristram Lady Giselle | 1971 1982 | 6-e 16-c | Eight Carat Brown 1975 | Pieces of Eight Klairessa | 1963 1969 | 3-o 9-c | Shadea Bay 1988 | Straight Strike Bay or brown 1977 | Mr Prospector Bend Not | 1970 1972 | 13-c 11> | Concia Bay 1978 | First Consul My Tricia | 1970 1974 | 5-f 8> | Miss Right Note Grey 2003 | Daylami Grey 1994 | Doyoun Bay 1985 | Mill Reef Dumka | 1968 1971 | 22-d 21-a | Daltawa Grey 1989 | Miswaki Damana | 1978 1981 | 16-g 9-e | Sky Song Bay 1997 | Sadler's Wells Bay 1981 | Northern Dancer Fairy Bridge | 1961 1975 | 2-d 5-h | Criquette Bay 1990 | Shirley Heights Ghislaine | 1975 1981 | 1-l 1-t | Dane Ripper Bay 1993 | Danehill Bay 1986 | Danzig Bay 1977 | Northern Dancer Bay 1961 | Nearctic Natalma | 1954 1957 | 14-c 2-d | Pas de Nom Bay or brown 1968 | Admiral's Voyage Petitioner | 1959 1952 | 4-n 7-a | Razyana Bay 1981 | His Majesty Bay 1968 | Ribot Flower Bowl | 1952 1952 | 4-l 4-d | Spring Adieu Bay 1974 | Buckpasser Natalma | 1963 1957 | 1-s 2-d | Red Express Chestnut 1984 | Sovereign Red Chestnut 1977 | Sir Tristram Bay 1971 | Sir Ivor Isolt | 1965 1961 | 8-g 6-e | Taiona Brown 1972 | Sovereign Edition Vickyjoy | 1962 1965 | 13-a 7-d | Let Her Rip Bay or brown 1974 | Shifnal Chestnut 1960 | Star Kingdom Oceana | 1946 1947 | 1-g 1-u | Princess Ripa Brown 1968 | Test Case Belle Spi | 1958 1950 | 9-c 2-g |
| Ancestor duplications: | Sir Tristram | 5m x 4m | | Northern Dancer | 5m x 4m | | Natalma | x 5m,5f |
------------- reductio ad absurdum
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Posted By: Dizzy
Date Posted: 18 Nov 2017 at 12:51pm
Race 8 at Riccarton. Last run was a winner at 1600.
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Posted By: Nobody
Date Posted: 28 Dec 2017 at 9:39am
Sir Gov wrote:
I suspect many are ready to declare this boy a flop.
Now 1 win from 20 starters in his 2nd season.........that is just too bad to be true
Tulip the flag bearer - but overall now sits at 10 winners from 46 starters.
Cannot even be close to a full book I would imagine |
Rank | Stallion Ccode Yof - To Stud | Breeding | Rnrs | Wnrs | Wins | SW(SWins) | Earnings | Best Performer |
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1 | Pierro (AUS) 2009 - 2013 | Lonhro - Miss Right Note | 67 | 25 | 33 | 4(5) | $2,469,469 | Pinot - 733,275 | 2 | All Too Hard (AUS) 2009 - 2013 | Casino Prince - Helsinge | 75 | 24 | 32 | 2(2) | $1,379,485 | Villermont - 172,910 | 3 | Your Song (AUS) 2009 - 2013 | Fastnet Rock - Zembu | 55 | 21 | 26 | 0(0) | $770,195 | Mister Songman - 71,575 | 4 | Reliable Man (GB) 2008 - 2013 | Dalakhani - On Fair Stage | 16 | 6 | 8 | 1(1) | $624,785 | Sully - 354,250 | 5 | Ocean Park (NZ) 2008 - 2013 | Thorn Park - Sayyida | 26 | 9 | 16 | 1(1) | $598,930 | Ocean Jewel - 158,000 | 6 | Azamour (IRE) 2001 - 2006 | Night Shift - Asmara | 1 | 1 | 2 | 1(2) | $451,600 | Aloisia - 451,600 | 7 | Gingerbread Man (AUS) 2007 - 2013 | Shamardal - Quaffle | 12 | 5 | 5 | 0(0) | $338,350 | Achernar Star - 284,500 | 8 | Animal Kingdom (USA) 2008 - 2013 | Leroidesanimaux - Dalicia | 25 | 7 | 9 | 0(0) | $306,820 | Peaceful State - 59,100 | 9 | Golden Archer (AUS) 2008 - 2013 | Rock of Gibraltar - Viennetta | 31 | 7 | 10 | 0(0) | $270,265 | Lady Lark - 45,400 | 10 | Frost Giant (USA) 2003 - 2009 | Giant's Causeway - Takesmybreathaway | 27 | 8 | 8 | 0(0) | $239,820 | Carolina Reaper - 79,100 |
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Posted By: Sir Gov
Date Posted: 28 Dec 2017 at 11:23am
Yep - egg on my face big time.
Not only with winners but also some top line horses like Pinot.
Congrats to those that stuck - he is absolutely firing
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Posted By: Kimberley Mine
Date Posted: 28 Dec 2017 at 5:26pm
They're showing up in city races mid-week and showing up and winning all over on Saturdays, from metro to country.
I am surprised at just how hard he's throwing to his damline, and also kind of surprised at how his rival All Too Hard (who got better as he got older) has had only 1 winner since the 20th of November.
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Posted By: Second Chance
Date Posted: 28 Dec 2017 at 5:53pm
I'm confused KM.
You point out that so many of his superior performers are line-bred to Sir Ivor, Sir T or Zabeel, which is of course his sire line. And then you suggest he's throwing hard to his damline, which to me would appear to represent something of a contradiction.
Would appreciate clarification of my possible misunderstanding.
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Posted By: Einstein
Date Posted: 28 Dec 2017 at 9:39pm
Kimberley Mine wrote:
They're showing up in city races mid-week and showing up and winning all over on Saturdays, from metro to country.
I am surprised at just how hard he's throwing to his damline, and also kind of surprised at how his rival All Too Hard (who got better as he got older) has had only 1 winner since the 20th of November. |
A lot more of ATHs will come out early next year, aiming for the autumn. What gets me, is how is anyone supposed to make money off supporting these stallions for commercial sales? I think there is like 40+ ATHs in the magic millions alone, haven't checked Pierro, but would say he would be similar.
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Posted By: goldey
Date Posted: 28 Dec 2017 at 10:04pm
Kimberley Mine wrote:
They're showing up in city races mid-week and showing up and winning all over on Saturdays, from metro to country.
I am surprised at just how hard he's throwing to his damline, and also kind of surprised at how his rival All Too Hard (who got better as he got older) has had only 1 winner since the 20th of November. |
Totally understand where you are coming from KM.
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Posted By: Kimberley Mine
Date Posted: 28 Dec 2017 at 11:22pm
Second Chance wrote:
I'm confused KM.
You point out that so many of his superior performers are line-bred to Sir Ivor, Sir T or Zabeel, which is of course his sire line. And then you suggest he's throwing hard to his damline, which to me would appear to represent something of a contradiction.
Would appreciate clarification of my possible misunderstanding.
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It appears to me that his damside really, really, really likes Sir Ivor.
His 2nd dam produced Gr-1 winner Laverock by Octagonal, the best performer in the family in three generations until Pierro. Go back another generation and the best performer of his 3rd dam is the only one with Sir Ivor (with a bonus line of Tom Fool, something else this family seems to like). Wherever Sir Ivor is introduced/reintroduced to this family, the family gets quality runners.
Gonski, who was out of a Marauding mare, sired his best Australian runner out of a mare from this family. Reset has a Gr2 winner out of a half-sister to Pierro's 2nd dam.
So Pierro throwing to his damline (better at longer distances, better as they get older) and getting his best runners when linebred to his sireline are not mutually exclusive.
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Posted By: Kimberley Mine
Date Posted: 29 Dec 2017 at 9:33am
Einstein wrote:
A lot more of ATHs will come out early next year, aiming for the autumn. |
Even so. Just like it was surprising how quiet Pierro was at the beginning of the season.
It's also surprising that when they're getting beaten, most of them are getting beaten badly. 7 of 7, 10 of 10, 7 of 9, 9 of 11, 7 of 8, etc. Demonetization, Villermont, and All Too Huiying are doing their best to fly the flag, but...like I said, surprising.
Compare to Pierro, who for every 9 of 11 (fiddlesticks stop running that NZ filly in stakes, she's over her head) he has a 1 or 2 of 10 since mid-November, or Ocean Park, who is positively en fuego.
What gets me, is how is anyone supposed to make money off supporting these stallions for commercial sales? I think there is like 40+ ATHs in the magic millions alone, haven't checked Pierro, but would say he would be similar. |
Pierro has 17 for Magic Millions and 9 or 10 each in Inglis Classic and Premier. That may be an outlier -- he had colic surgery 2 years back and covered a limited book.
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Posted By: furious
Date Posted: 21 Apr 2018 at 11:13pm
Not a bad season for Pierro with an Oaks, and two Derby winners from his first crop. Coolmore must be wondering why they couldn't get stayers with all their overseas breed imports when all of a sudden Pierro and So You Think are both firing over a distance. And you get the Zabeel cross or the Redoute's Choice cross, or the Encosta de Lago cross - so that opens up all the other best lines for mares to go to them.
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Posted By: djebel
Date Posted: 21 Apr 2018 at 11:32pm
2 Derby winners ?
------------- reductio ad absurdum
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Posted By: Carioca
Date Posted: 22 Apr 2018 at 12:05am
WA Derby winner to day by Pierro djebel, furious don't make many blues, not like me, would that make it two with Levendi winning.
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Posted By: furious
Date Posted: 22 Apr 2018 at 12:10am
WA Derby out of a Redoute's Choice Djebel. That's two Derby winners with that cross.
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Posted By: djebel
Date Posted: 22 Apr 2018 at 9:11pm
All the stamina must come from Pierro ?
ACTION (AUS) | Bay gelding 2014 | |
Pierro Bay 2009 | Lonhro Brown 1998 | Octagonal Brown 1992 | Zabeel Bay 1986 | Sir Tristram Lady Giselle | 1971 1982 | 6-e 16-c | Eight Carat Brown 1975 | Pieces of Eight Klairessa | 1963 1969 | 3-o 9-c | Shadea Bay 1988 | Straight Strike Bay or brown 1977 | Mr Prospector Bend Not | 1970 1972 | 13-c 11> | Concia Bay 1978 | First Consul My Tricia | 1970 1974 | 5-f 8> | Miss Right Note Grey 2003 | Daylami Grey 1994 | Doyoun Bay 1985 | Mill Reef Dumka | 1968 1971 | 22-d 21-a | Daltawa Grey 1989 | Miswaki Damana | 1978 1981 | 16-g 9-e | Sky Song Bay 1997 | Sadler's Wells Bay 1981 | Northern Dancer Fairy Bridge | 1961 1975 | 2-d 5-h | Criquette Bay 1990 | Shirley Heights Ghislaine | 1975 1981 | 1-l 1-t | Broadway Belle Bay 2005 | Redoute's Choice Bay 1996 | Danehill Bay 1986 | Danzig Bay 1977 | Northern Dancer Pas de Nom | 1961 1968 | 2-d 7-a | Razyana Bay 1981 | His Majesty Spring Adieu | 1968 1974 | 4-d 2-d | Shantha's Choice Bay 1992 | Canny Lad Brown 1987 | Bletchingly Jesmond Lass | 1970 1975 | 7-a 14> | Dancing Show Bay 1983 | Nijinsky Show Lady | 1967 1976 | 8-f 8-f | Antique Brown 1999 | Metal Storm Bay 1988 | Kenmare Grey 1975 | Kalamoun Belle of Ireland | 1970 1964 | 9-c 1-m | Porphyrine Bay 1980 | Habitat Katie May | 1966 1973 | 4-r 4-n | Bonny Guest Chestnut 1987 | What a Guest Chestnut 1979 | Be My Guest Princess Tiara | 1974 1974 | 8-c 1-p | Bonny Dancer Chestnut 1980 | Bletchingly Dancelot | 1970 1972 | 7-a 22-c |
| Ancestor duplications: | Northern Dancer | 5m x 5m | | Bletchingly | x 5m,5f |
------------- reductio ad absurdum
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Posted By: furious
Date Posted: 22 Apr 2018 at 9:29pm
Well a full sister to Broadway Belle is the dam of Arcadia Dream also winner of the WA Derby in 2016. Action certainly looks like he is a fast stayer. Interesting that they don't like some of the types Pierro throws including this boy. These could be his stayers?
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Posted By: Kimberley Mine
Date Posted: 23 Apr 2018 at 4:28am
furious wrote:
Well a full sister to Broadway Belle is the dam of Arcadia Dream also winner of the WA Derby in 2016. Action certainly looks like he is a fast stayer. Interesting that they don't like some of the types Pierro throws including this boy. These could be his stayers? |
I said in October that Pierro was throwing to his female line and that looks to be more and more the case. With the stallion's crest and maturity, he looks like Zabeel from the neck forward and Daylami from the shoulder back.
And this lad is one of Pierro's stakes winners, who looks like someone dipped Daylami in brown paint and gave him a freeze-brand (roman nose, thick throat latch, and all).
It would be interesting to get all of Pierro's better runners together in a line and have a look. I suspect that the ones who are running well at 1200-1600m all have one physical type (either Lonhro or their dams) and the ones running well at 2000m+ all look like Daylami.
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Posted By: djebel
Date Posted: 21 May 2018 at 3:42pm
TERRA SANCTA (NZ) | Bay filly 2014 | |
Pierro Bay 2009 | Lonhro Brown 1998 | Octagonal Brown 1992 | Zabeel Bay 1986 | Sir Tristram Lady Giselle | 1971 1982 | 6-e 16-c | Eight Carat Brown 1975 | Pieces of Eight Klairessa | 1963 1969 | 3-o 9-c | Shadea Bay 1988 | Straight Strike Bay or brown 1977 | Mr Prospector Bend Not | 1970 1972 | 13-c 11> | Concia Bay 1978 | First Consul My Tricia | 1970 1974 | 5-f 8> | Miss Right Note Grey 2003 | Daylami Grey 1994 | Doyoun Bay 1985 | Mill Reef Dumka | 1968 1971 | 22-d 21-a | Daltawa Grey 1989 | Miswaki Damana | 1978 1981 | 16-g 9-e | Sky Song Bay 1997 | Sadler's Wells Bay 1981 | Northern Dancer Fairy Bridge | 1961 1975 | 2-d 5-h | Criquette Bay 1990 | Shirley Heights Ghislaine | 1975 1981 | 1-l 1-t | Galshaan Brown 2007 | Galileo Bay 1998 | Sadler's Wells Bay 1981 | Northern Dancer Bay 1961 | Nearctic Natalma | 1954 1957 | 14-c 2-d | Fairy Bridge Bay 1975 | Bold Reason Special | 1968 1969 | 19-b 5-h | Urban Sea Chestnut 1989 | Miswaki Chestnut 1978 | Mr Prospector Hopespringseternal | 1970 1971 | 13-c 16-g | Allegretta Chestnut 1978 | Lombard Anatevka | 1967 1969 | 1-d 9-h | Darlya Bay 1991 | Darshaan Brown 1981 | Shirley Heights Bay 1975 | Mill Reef Hardiemma | 1968 1969 | 22-d 1-l | Delsy Brown 1972 | Abdos Kelty | 1959 1965 | 1-e 13-c | Azallya Bay 1984 | Habitat Bay 1966 | Sir Gaylord Little Hut | 1959 1952 | 2-s 4-r | Azurella Bay 1971 | High Hat Azorelle | 1957 1962 | 2-o 1-t |
| Ancestor duplications: | Mr Prospector | 5m x 5m | | Mill Reef | 5m x 5m | | Miswaki | 5f x 4f | | | | Sadler's Wells | 4f x 3m | | Shirley Heights | 5f x 4m |
------------- reductio ad absurdum
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Posted By: Nobody
Date Posted: 29 Sep 2019 at 10:18pm
Nobody wrote:
Sir Gov wrote:
I suspect many are ready to declare this boy a flop.
Now 1 win from 20 starters in his 2nd season.........that is just too bad to be true
Tulip the flag bearer - but overall now sits at 10 winners from 46 starters.
Cannot even be close to a full book I would imagine |
Rank | Stallion Ccode Yof - To Stud | Breeding | Rnrs | Wnrs | Wins | SW(SWins) | Earnings | Best Performer |
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1 | Pierro (AUS) 2009 - 2013 | Lonhro - Miss Right Note | 67 | 25 | 33 | 4(5) | $2,469,469 | Pinot - 733,275 | 2 | All Too Hard (AUS) 2009 - 2013 | Casino Prince - Helsinge | 75 | 24 | 32 | 2(2) | $1,379,485 | Villermont - 172,910 | 3 | Your Song (AUS) 2009 - 2013 | Fastnet Rock - Zembu | 55 | 21 | 26 | 0(0) | $770,195 | Mister Songman - 71,575 | 4 | Reliable Man (GB) 2008 - 2013 | Dalakhani - On Fair Stage | 16 | 6 | 8 | 1(1) | $624,785 | Sully - 354,250 | 5 | Ocean Park (NZ) 2008 - 2013 | Thorn Park - Sayyida | 26 | 9 | 16 | 1(1) | $598,930 | Ocean Jewel - 158,000 | 6 | Azamour (IRE) 2001 - 2006 | Night Shift - Asmara | 1 | 1 | 2 | 1(2) | $451,600 | Aloisia - 451,600 | 7 | Gingerbread Man (AUS) 2007 - 2013 | Shamardal - Quaffle | 12 | 5 | 5 | 0(0) | $338,350 | Achernar Star - 284,500 | 8 | Animal Kingdom (USA) 2008 - 2013 | Leroidesanimaux - Dalicia | 25 | 7 | 9 | 0(0) | $306,820 | Peaceful State - 59,100 | 9 | Golden Archer (AUS) 2008 - 2013 | Rock of Gibraltar - Viennetta | 31 | 7 | 10 | 0(0) | $270,265 | Lady Lark - 45,400 | 10 | Frost Giant (USA) 2003 - 2009 | Giant's Causeway - Takesmybreathaway | 27 | 8 | 8 | 0(0) | $239,820 | Carolina Reaper - 79,100 |
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Pierro's stats keep on getting better - and with two leading chances in the Everest and another very strong Derby contender, the sky is the limit for him.
Commenced stud duties in Australia in 2013 Leading Aust. First Season Sire in 2016-17. Analysis by Crop Crop | Foals | Rnrs | Wnrs | Wins | SW (GW) | SWs(GWs) | A$ |
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14/15 | 142 | 112 | 88 | 233 | 10 (7) | 22 (15) | 18,415,343 | 15/16 | 153 | 121 | 75 | 121 | 6 (3) | 11 (6) | 6,607,358 | 16/17 | 83 | 30 | 9 | 14 | 2 (2) | 3 (2) | 915,858 | Totals | 378 | 263 | 172 | 368 | 18 (12) | 36 (23) | 25,938,559 |
Analysis by Age Age | Rnrs | Wnrs | Plcd | Wins | SW (GW) | SWs(GWs) | Ave Earnings A$ |
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2 | 104 | 20 | 24 | 25 | 5 (2) | 5 (2) | 19,738 | 3 | 246 | 130 | 41 | 201 | 11 (8) | 20 (13) | 54,531 | 4 | 142 | 85 | 19 | 142 | 7 (5) | 11 (8) | 73,740 |
Analysis by Sex Sex | Rnrs | Wnrs | Plcd | Wins | SW (GW) | SWs(GWs) | Ave Earnings A$ |
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Colts | 153 | 108 | 25 | 249 | 13 (9) | 26 (15) | 124,410 | Fillies | 110 | 64 | 21 | 119 | 5 (3) | 10 (8) | 62,762 |
Analysis by Race Distance Band | Rnrs | Wnrs | Plcd | Wins | SW (GW) | SWs(GWs) | Ave Earnings A$ |
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< 1001m | 65 | 11 | 9 | 12 | 1 | 1 | 8,753 | 1001 - 1200m | 195 | 50 | 40 | 73 | 2 (2) | 5 (5) | 22,932 | 1201 - 1400m | 225 | 87 | 39 | 124 | 6 (4) | 8 (5) | 32,476 | 1401 - 1600m | 174 | 72 | 21 | 94 | 7 (3) | 9 (4) | 30,102 | 1601 - 1800m | 94 | 21 | 9 | 24 | 2 (2) | 3 (2) | 17,514 | 1801 - 2000m | 71 | 10 | 10 | 12 | 3 (2) | 3 (2) | 37,116 | 2001 - 2200m | 54 | 19 | 5 | 21 | 2 | 2 | 19,976 | 2201 - 2400m | 21 | 6 | 1 | 6 | 4 (4) | 4 (4) | 104,241 | > 2400m | 8 | 2 | 0 | 2 | 1 (1) | 1 (1) | 100,430 |
New Zealand
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Posted By: Tlazolteotl
Date Posted: 29 Sep 2019 at 10:27pm
Pierro at stud is doing what his pedigree suggests, unlike Pierro the racehorse, who had a weird pedigree for a Golden Slipper winner.
------------- An honest politician is one who when he is bought will stay bought.
Simon Cameron
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Posted By: Red Hare
Date Posted: 01 Oct 2019 at 2:52am
I remember Bart claiming that Saintly could’ve been trained to win any race he wanted.
Might just be that Pierro was just as versatile.
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Posted By: Kimberley Mine
Date Posted: 04 Oct 2020 at 9:16am
Kimberley Mine wrote:
Well, one reason he might be getting foals who want to run long is that quite a few are linebred to either Zabeel or Sir Tristram:
...
That's 9 out of his 20 winners so far, and 3 of his 5 stakes horses. If you count Tulip's 3rd dam Grand Luxe by Sir Ivor and Princess Pierro, that's fully half of his winners and 80% of his stakes horses so far are linebred to Sir Ivor, Sir Tristram, or Zabeel AND 60% of his stakes horses have Sir Ivor through the Ciboulette family. It's quite astounding to see how strong that cross is even at this early stage.
Again, my gut feeling is that he's throwing to his damline and his damline REALLY REALLY REALLY likes Sir Ivor! |
Three years on and with Persan having an extraordinary spring so far, I thought I'd review this list. It's the weekend and I'm bored, so here we go.
Pierro's 24 stakes winners (including HK and SAF SW's) are:
Horse Broodmare Sire Extra Sir Ivor? Action Redoute's Choice Yes -- Show Lady Arcadia Prince Redoute's Choice Yes -- Show Lady Arcadia Queen Redoute's Choice Yes -- Show Lady Bellvue Hill Exceed and Excel Yes -- Marauding Commander More Than Ready No Dragon Leap Redoute's Choice Yes -- Show Lady, Sir T, Ivory Dawn Furore Redoute's Choice Yes -- Show Lady Gamay Canny Lad No I Like It Easy General Nedyim Yes -- Rolls * Kentucky Breeze Redoute's Choice Yes -- Show Lady Levendi Redoute's Choice Yes -- Show Lady Octabello Secret Savings No Persan Mossman Yes -- Marauding Pierata Flying Spur Yes -- Rolls, Zabeel * Pinot Zabeel Yes -- Zabeel Reelem In Ruby Giant's Causeway No Regal Power Redoute's Choice Yes -- Show Lady Rock Fastnet Rock Yes -- Marauding Roy Had Enough Elusive Quality Yes -- Ivory Wand Sacramento Redoute's Choice Yes -- Show Lady * Satin Slipper Flying Spur Yes -- Rolls, Kaapstad, Green Desert * Shadow Hero Casino Prince Yes -- Rolls ( x 2) * Tulip Rock of Gibraltar Yes -- Grande Luxe * Untamed Fastnet Rock Yes -- Marauding
Stakes-placed horses: Aecee Tong De Elusive Quality Yes -- Ivory Wand Femme Fireball Fastnet Rock Yes -- Marauding Folk Dress Snow Ridge No Gayatri Redoute's Choice Yes -- Show Lady, Zabeel Holbien Danehill Dancer No Quintessa Street Sense No * Poseidon's Pool Exceed and Excel No Princess Pierro Exceed and Excel Yes -- Bates Motel Rainbow Girl Fastnet Rock Yes -- Marauding Rendition Lion Hunter No Rome Exceed and Excel No Sikorsky Rock of Gibraltar Yes -- Grande Luxe * Spencer Smart Strike No * True Magic Redoute's Choice Yes -- Show Lady Wheelhouse Fastnet Rock Yes -- Marauding
Obviously, the cross with Redoute's Choice is something spectacular.
Out of 39 total stakes winners/placed, 29 (74%) have an extra cross to Sir Ivor in some way. All five of his Gr-1 winning horses have an extra cross to Sir Ivor, from multiple different sources.
Most (11) are through Redoute's Choice's 3rd dam Show Lady. Pierro has 39 named foals of racing age out of Redoute's Choice mares, and 10 of them have black type for a stunning 25% stakes horses from FOALS on that cross. That's also 10% Gr-1 winners from FOALS on that cross (counting Furore). I mean, wow. I expect this number to drop in his future crops because with bigger foal crops and more RC mares, he will be seeing a lot more middling-to-meh RC mares. It might drop from 24% stakes horses to something more reasonable, like 12-15%.
Moving on, 7 have a cross to Marauding, mostly via Fastnet Rock but one is the mare Ambiguous, 3rd dam of Bellvue Hill. That's interesting because out of the four black-type horses with Exceed and Excel as broodmare sire, Bellvue Hill is the only stakes winner.
Pierro has a total of 6 foals of racing age out of three individual Elusive Quality mares, for one Gr-3 winner in South Africa and one Gr-3 placed winner of over $200,000. Five of the six are winners and two of the three winners who aren't black-type are both metro class runners. That's a strike rate approaching Redoute's Choice, albeit with a much smaller sample size.
There are a couple of other patterns that show up here. The mares Ciboulette and Victoriana show up pretty frequently in Pierro's stakes horses. Most of the foals with Ciboulette (which means scallion, by the way, a fun play on words with her sire Chop Chop) descend from Grande Luxe, by Sir Ivor -- but not all. Some descend from L'Enjoleur. Any mares with Night Shift would be worth a try here.
The other one that shows up, and I can't figure out why, is the Poker (USA) mare My Charmer, dam of Seattle Slew, Lomond, and Seattle Dancer and the mare Clandestina. Lomond appears primarily through Exceed and Excel, but also through Citidancer (IRE).
Based on all of this, I'd also say that putting Pierro mares to Frosted might be an interesting pedigree play. Frosted is linebred to Seattle Slew, so double My Charmer, and has Victoriana via Deputy Minister. In fact, Pierro's son Commander is out of a mare whose dam Fleeting Touch is a 3/4 sibling to Frosted's dam Fast Cookie. Additionally, if any mares by Midshipman (USA) make it to Australia, especially if they have Deputy Minister or Vice Regent anywhere in their pedigrees, Pierro (or Pierata, or Bellvue Hill) are worth a punt. Bernardini mares might also be worth trying with Pierro for this reason, as well.
We now return to our normal, non-pedigree-geek weekend activities...
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Posted By: kavg
Date Posted: 04 Oct 2020 at 5:16pm
Fascinating read Kim.
Definitely looks like there is something there.
Thanks for the insights.
------------- Prejudice is an emotional attachment to ignorance. DiEM25 for the world.
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Posted By: kavg
Date Posted: 04 Oct 2020 at 5:33pm
And the way Frosted runners started yesterday, the Frosted/Pierro cross could be dynamite. 4 different strains of Mr Prospector hailing from the 13c Crepe Myrtle family as does Seattle Slew!
There is no Redoutes or Sir Ivor BUT Frosted does have Secretariat and Sir Gaylord as well as menow via Tapit which is all Sir Ivor families.
------------- Prejudice is an emotional attachment to ignorance. DiEM25 for the world.
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Posted By: Kimberley Mine
Date Posted: 05 Oct 2020 at 4:36pm
Thanks all.
Frosted in fact got his first stakes winner Saturday -- out of a Lonhro mare. One of Lonhro's few North American stakes winners, Velvet Mood, is out of a Bernardini mare, as is his Australian Gr-2 winning mare Banish.
Moving back a generation for Pierro, his broodmare sire Daylami's best horse is Grey Swallow out of a mare by The Minstrel who has the foundation Canadian sire Chop Chop up close. Daylami's second-best northern hemisphere runner, Indian Days, descends from an old Canadian Windfields Farm line: a Menetrier daughter of the Chop Chop mare Chorus Beauty*, making that mare a genetic sibling to Victoriana, the dam of Vice Regent. Chop Chop is a full brother to US Triple Crown winner Omaha.
This leads to an interesting examination of why Shantha's Choice (it's not Danehill, it's her) and Pierro have done so well together. Shantha's Choice is by Canny Lad, who brings in a line to Alcibiades via Menow/Tom Fool male line. Her dam Dancing Show is by Nijinsky, whose 2nd dam is by Menow and 3rd dam is by...Omaha! Dancing Show's dam Show Lady is by Sir Ivor, who brings in yet another line to Alcibiades. Pierro has winners out of every descendant of this mare he has been bred to and in most cases they win at least 3 times.
Bluebird, Hurricane Sky, Sound Reason, and Brave Warrior are interesting crosses for the same reasons. And I'm rather surprised that neither Bel Esprit nor Royal Academy mares seem to have been tried much with him -- no runners out of mares from either stallion.
* Unknown if she was a beauty or not, as Chop Chop was notorious for siring horses that only looked beautiful in the winners' circle.
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Posted By: furious
Date Posted: 06 Oct 2020 at 11:15am
They might be hard to find but you have Imperial Prince blood out there also. He was a good representative of Sir Ivor in Australia with his best being Research out of the Entreaty female line (Entreaty was dam of Phar Lap).
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Posted By: furious
Date Posted: 06 Oct 2020 at 11:40am
Have any So You Think mares gone to Pierro? Tights Nijinsky/Prinquillo blood should cross well also. And you get a female x male cross to Sadler's Wells. He crosses well with Redoute's also so you could get the mare with that cross for Redoute's in the pedigree.
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Posted By: furious
Date Posted: 06 Oct 2020 at 11:41am
And he's from the Juliet line which has crossed well with Lonhro (Impending). Just saying.
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Posted By: Kimberley Mine
Date Posted: 06 Oct 2020 at 3:56pm
furious wrote:
Have any So You Think mares gone to Pierro? Tights Nijinsky/Prinquillo blood should cross well also. And you get a female x male cross to Sadler's Wells. He crosses well with Redoute's also so you could get the mare with that cross for Redoute's in the pedigree. |
Good call, High Chap has done well with Zabeel too so it's an interesting idea.
Per Breednet, only 3 to run out of High Chap mares and none out of SYT mares. That's not really surprising given that So You Think's first foal crop is only a year older than Pierro's. For High Chap, he first shuttled to NZ and then took a break from shuttling. His biggest Australian-bred foal crops are from 2012 onwards, so I suspect that Pierro hasn't got many runners out of High Chap mares simply because the mares closest at hand aren't old enough to have foals to race yet.
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Posted By: Mr Prospector
Date Posted: 06 Oct 2020 at 5:06pm
Kimberley Mine wrote:
Thanks all.
Frosted in fact got his first stakes winner Saturday -- out of a Lonhro mare. One of Lonhro's few North American stakes winners, Velvet Mood, is out of a Bernardini mare, as is his Australian Gr-2 winning mare Banish.
Moving back a generation for Pierro, his broodmare sire Daylami's best horse is Grey Swallow out of a mare by The Minstrel who has the foundation Canadian sire Chop Chop up close. Daylami's second-best northern hemisphere runner, Indian Days, descends from an old Canadian Windfields Farm line: a Menetrier daughter of the Chop Chop mare Chorus Beauty*, making that mare a genetic sibling to Victoriana, the dam of Vice Regent. Chop Chop is a full brother to US Triple Crown winner Omaha.
This leads to an interesting examination of why Shantha's Choice (it's not Danehill, it's her) and Pierro have done so well together. Shantha's Choice is by Canny Lad, who brings in a line to Alcibiades via Menow/Tom Fool male line. Her dam Dancing Show is by Nijinsky, whose 2nd dam is by Menow and 3rd dam is by...Omaha! Dancing Show's dam Show Lady is by Sir Ivor, who brings in yet another line to Alcibiades. Pierro has winners out of every descendant of this mare he has been bred to and in most cases they win at least 3 times.
Bluebird, Hurricane Sky, Sound Reason, and Brave Warrior are interesting crosses for the same reasons. And I'm rather surprised that neither Bel Esprit nor Royal Academy mares seem to have been tried much with him -- no runners out of mares from either stallion.
* Unknown if she was a beauty or not, as Chop Chop was notorious for siring horses that only looked beautiful in the winners' circle.
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I've noticed that before also KM . Have a look at the pedigree of Russian Revolution as another example
Dancing Show -Nijinsky = Northern Dancer x Omaha Storm Bird - Northern Dancer x Chop Chop Nureyev - Northern Dancer x Flares Franreluche - Northern dancer X Chop Chop
I'm not sure wether you could call it a coincidence or a pattern . The Chop Chop family is the same as Success Express 17b and SE mares may well fit in also .
------------- There are three types of lies - Lies ,Damn Lies and Statistics
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Posted By: Kimberley Mine
Date Posted: 06 Oct 2020 at 11:59pm
Mr Prospector wrote:
I've noticed that before also KM . Have a look at the pedigree of Russian Revolution as another example
Dancing Show -Nijinsky = Northern Dancer x Omaha Storm Bird - Northern Dancer x Chop Chop Nureyev - Northern Dancer x Flares Franreluche - Northern dancer X Chop Chop
I'm not sure wether you could call it a coincidence or a pattern . The Chop Chop family is the same as Success Express 17b and SE mares may well fit in also . |
The cross of Sir Tristram and especially Zabeel with the Ciboulette family has been tried often enough to be called a pattern, and it's a very successful one at that. Beaded, by Lonhro, immediately comes to mind; she probably would have had a stack more Gr-1 wins were it not for Black Caviar.
As for the La Flambee family, two recent representatives bred on the Zabeel/Success Express cross are the ill-fated Pinker Pinker and of course Savabeel. I'm rather surprised that despite Savabeel's success on the track and at stud that none of Savannah Success' daughters or granddaughters appear to have visited a Zabeel-line stallion.
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Posted By: Kimberley Mine
Date Posted: 03 Nov 2020 at 11:23pm
Furious, did you see this?
https://www.racenet.com.au/news/melbourne-cup-winner-s-legacy-130-years-on-20201103" rel="nofollow - https://www.racenet.com.au/news/melbourne-cup-winner-s-legacy-130-years-on-20201103
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Posted By: furious
Date Posted: 04 Nov 2020 at 12:22pm
No I didn't read it KM already knew the story. I bet you were pleased as punch with Persan. Such a brave run and he was still coming on the line which most of the field weren't. Almost gave me a top four but I still think it was one of the best runs because let's face it on his pedigree most Australians wouldn't of given him a chance in hades.
Pierro, Lonhro, Octagonal, Zabeel*, Canny Lad, Bletchingly, Biscay, Marauding, Red Anchor*, Kaoru Star are all in the front of the pedigree. Then further back Ajax, Heroic*, Carbine*, Trenton*, Darebin*, Southern Cross, Sir Modred, Goldsbrough*, Fireworks etc etc. Probably more if I did a detailed search.
And Carbine well I didn't even bother to go through the pedigree. He and Trenton are there so many times. Trenton probably more that usual. Carbine does dominate pedigrees but this one have many lines of Hyperion which of course boost Trenton's numbers up.
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Posted By: Kimberley Mine
Date Posted: 05 Nov 2020 at 4:03am
furious wrote:
No I didn't read it KM already knew the story. I bet you were pleased as punch with Persan. Such a brave run and he was still coming on the line which most of the field weren't. Almost gave me a top four but I still think it was one of the best runs because let's face it on his pedigree most Australians wouldn't of given him a chance in hades.
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I'm as impressed as can be at how Persan took such a horrifying fall as a juvenile, shook it off, and raced a week later. Then he developed into a racehorse anyone on this board would be delighted to own.
I'm also impressed as can be with Verry Elleegant. The trip is everything in a 3200m race with an 8000 horse field, and she didn't get the trip. I still think she's the best horse to run in that field by a good ways and hopefully we see her in the Auckland Cup later in the season.
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