Print Page | Close Window

I Am Invincible

Printed From: Thoroughbred Village
Category: Horse Breeding - Public Forums
Forum Name: Stallions
Forum Description: Stallion appraisals and trends
URL: https://forum.thoroughbredvillage.com.au/forum_posts.asp?TID=40251
Printed Date: 29 Mar 2024 at 9:10am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.05 - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: I Am Invincible
Posted By: slowdown
Subject: I Am Invincible
Date Posted: 29 Jul 2012 at 9:35pm
cant find any threads on this bloke. wondered what  his first foals are like and what peoples thoughts are re the $11000 service fee. Cheers Slowdown



Replies:
Posted By: Faster Runner
Date Posted: 30 Jul 2012 at 10:23pm
He could be the sleeping giant.
Speed machine and an outstanding type. The colt I saw at the weanling sale was a great type and sold well.


Posted By: slowdown
Date Posted: 30 Jul 2012 at 10:39pm
Cheers for the reply Faster. 


Posted By: TOLEDO
Date Posted: 31 Jul 2012 at 12:35am
Let you know in a couple of months got one on the way 


Posted By: slowdown
Date Posted: 31 Jul 2012 at 7:50am
Cheers Toledo. that would be great


Posted By: travo
Date Posted: 27 Mar 2013 at 9:48am
Originally posted by TOLEDO TOLEDO wrote:

Let you know in a couple of months got one on the way 

What are the thoughts now his crop are selling well at recent sales?


-------------
It's only a rort if you're not in it.......


Posted By: Ringlock
Date Posted: 14 Sep 2013 at 8:50pm
His first runner is a winner!
Vinnie Eagle won easily at Ruakaka in NZ today. Can't have a better start than that...one runner, one winner.
Have heard trainers here with good reports on I Am Invincible 2-year-olds include Gerald Ryan, Peter Moody and Ron Quinton.


Posted By: Gay3
Date Posted: 14 Sep 2013 at 9:07pm
Beautifully matched mating too Smile

-------------
Wisdom has been chasing me but I've always outrun it!


Posted By: Nostradamus II
Date Posted: 16 Sep 2013 at 11:06am
Beat me to it. Danzig 4x4, Kris 4x4, Northern Dancer 5x5x5, Never Bend 6x6, Natalma 6x6x6x6 but I really love the Sharpen Up 5x4x5. Strong sire line behind I Am Invincible too...Invincible Spirit/Green Desert.

The dam Sweet Maggie has had 2 foals for 2 winners. Granddam strong performer with 5 runners, 4 winners including G1 winner Nashville.


-------------
https://sites.google.com/site/cosmosthoroughbredpedigrees/" rel="nofollow - https://sites.google.com/site/cosmosthoroughbredpedigrees/


Posted By: bradjm
Date Posted: 23 Sep 2013 at 9:46pm
Had a slick trial winner in Syd this morning.


Posted By: Fremz
Date Posted: 25 Sep 2013 at 10:05pm
Saw the trial of the filly trial winner this morning, looks very smart

-------------
for those about to punt, we salute you...


Posted By: Ringlock
Date Posted: 11 Dec 2013 at 2:43pm
I Am Invincible fillies ran 2nd and 3rd in a strong race at Warwick Farm today. I Am Snippety, from a Snippets mare, showed tremendous speed to lead and fought on. Uratta Belle, from a Commands mare, came from back in the field, finishing strongly. Gai's runner was an easy winner but these two showed a fair bit of ability.


Posted By: Gay3
Date Posted: 14 Dec 2013 at 2:44pm
Gee this horse has started well; another winner, this time Listed, Doomben, Bassillique, at his 1st run Smile

-------------
Wisdom has been chasing me but I've always outrun it!


Posted By: bradjm
Date Posted: 14 Dec 2013 at 3:13pm
And one at flemington.

On fire


Posted By: Faster Runner
Date Posted: 14 Dec 2013 at 4:08pm
Now leading the 1st. Season sires by pmoney . They all seem to have ability. If you are lucky enough to have a yearling they will sell well now


Posted By: amateur
Date Posted: 18 Dec 2013 at 11:06am
His dad, Invincible Spirit used to hold the (UK... I think?) record of 38 1st-crop 2yo winners in a season until Iffraaj broke it by a winner or two.  So a good juvenile record for IAI is definitely on the cards!


Posted By: Gay3
Date Posted: 21 Dec 2013 at 1:03pm
And another,  ILLUSTRIOUS LAD in Adelaide at his 1st start, trained by Gelagotis & ridden by apprentice Cartright who did a good job to almost ignore the 3 or 4 pigroots after the start; no wonder he was sparing with the stick, in the straight, smart kid Wink

-------------
Wisdom has been chasing me but I've always outrun it!


Posted By: Flight
Date Posted: 21 Dec 2013 at 2:45pm
Originally posted by Gay3 Gay3 wrote:

And another, 
                      ILLUSTRIOUS LAD in Adelaide at his 1st start, trained by Gelagotis & ridden by apprentice Cartright who did a good job to almost ignore the 3 or 4 pigroots after the start; no wonder he was sparing with the stick, in the straight, smart kid Wink



Excellent ride. Could not believe it was a 3kg kid as he did not panic at any point.

Great start for the stallion. The few I have seen are lovely types.   

-------------
“The probability of a certain set of circumstances coming together in a meaningful (or tragic) way is so low that it simply cannot be considered mere coincidence. ”
― V.C. King


Posted By: Ringlock
Date Posted: 21 Dec 2013 at 10:14pm
Admit to being biased because I have a few, but as one Randwick trainer said to me this week: "Every trainer wants an I Am Invincible." They are going really well. Those that don't win tend to be placed (2nd and 3rd at Warwick Farm behind Echo Gal) and Divided House in Perth today was flattened in the first 200 metres and lucky to stay on her feet.


Posted By: Bagman
Date Posted: 21 Dec 2013 at 10:23pm
The gang at Yarraman are masters.
They know how to get a good stallion that will keep trainers and owners/breeders interested.
They are also very good at the promotion without promoting caper.

-------------
I don't have one


Posted By: Lordy
Date Posted: 24 Dec 2013 at 2:12pm
Originally posted by Ringlock Ringlock wrote:

"Every trainer wants an I Am Invincible."  
16 lots going through the Magic Millions in a couple of weeks.  Will give a good idea of how much interest there is.  Some very nice types looking at the pics.


Posted By: Nobody
Date Posted: 01 Jan 2014 at 3:54pm
Pretty impressive Group winner today at Ellerslie. The invincibles are doing a fine job all over. Hope this doesn't naturally translate to a 100% or more increase in the service fees.


Posted By: runnerdance
Date Posted: 01 Jan 2014 at 5:35pm
Would have to think hell spoke to 22k. He did a massive book of 170 this season... think they cop 120-130 next season at twice the fee. Interesting to see book numbers for this season... general theme most books dropped off. Horse like Starcraft was down to 50-60 for memory...interesting to see what he and others stand at next year


Posted By: troppo75
Date Posted: 01 Jan 2014 at 6:43pm
Its a bit too early to get excited with service fees or if he will be doubled. I can recall a couple of sires starting out well of recent times.. Domesday and Dane Shadow. Both of these sires were expected to go on to bigger and better things.

Early winners are nice, but it would be foolish to jack his price right up. By keeping his price realistic the stud can still get the same sort of clients and give something back.

Yeah.. I believe in Santa Wink


-------------
Now having passed 1000 posts I feel you are all so much the wiser for my having said... stuff!


Posted By: Ringlock
Date Posted: 01 Jan 2014 at 7:02pm
it's still early days but IAI has had a terrific start to his career. Let's see how they sell at MM and the Classic Sale. The Mitchells may well decide to put up his fee but they are pretty conservative and realistic ... look at how they kept Magic Albert at a very affordable fee when he was producing a string of good winners. Yarraman Park are one of the best studs to deal with. I expect Hinchinbrook's yearlings to be very much in demand this year, so they could have 2 of the hottest young sires on their books ...


Posted By: runnerdance
Date Posted: 01 Jan 2014 at 7:09pm
i am not suggesting to get on the IAI train but history tells you that studs wont wait pump him up... and his service fee. As per previous post i think numbers covered suggests a big correction coming... i think across the board 20%+++ (advertised fees). I stand corrected and i might be wrong but recall IAI was a terrible bleeder... might be a knock on his stock training on beyond pre xmas 2yos???


Posted By: runnerdance
Date Posted: 01 Jan 2014 at 7:11pm
Dont you think for a second the Mitchells will get the warm and fuzzies... and cut you a break. Great operators but business and business... if money to be had dont you worry they will snatch and grab


Posted By: Faster Runner
Date Posted: 01 Jan 2014 at 9:27pm
He was not a bleeder but had feet trouble, like invincible spirit himself I Am Invincible trained on and improved as he got older. With 2 stakes winners already I doubt you can wait and see , you will be lucky to get a look in. Like I predicted earlier in this thread the giant is now well awake


Posted By: furious
Date Posted: 02 Jan 2014 at 9:54am
And this one proves the Danehill cross can work. And what do we have in abundance in Australia. Danehill mares.


Posted By: Ringlock
Date Posted: 08 Jan 2014 at 7:12pm
Only 3 offered on the first day at MM, but what sensational results. Almost unbelievable.

Lot 116, colt from a Faslyiev mare, $260,000
Lot 126, colt from an unraced Tale of the Cat mare, a first foal, $190,000 (Michael Freedman, Singapore)
Lot 188, filly from a Zeditave mare, $440,000 (Tony Cavanagh, Melbourne bloodstock agent)




Posted By: Fremz
Date Posted: 08 Jan 2014 at 8:32pm
440k off an 11k service fee that is unreal!

-------------
for those about to punt, we salute you...


Posted By: Lordy
Date Posted: 08 Jan 2014 at 10:23pm
It's a typical market over reaction. A few good ones early and they treat him like Fastnet Rock.

Still, good one those who got in on his 2nd season.


Posted By: runnerdance
Date Posted: 09 Jan 2014 at 8:21am
my thoughts exactly as above... hats off to you
 
but history says he will have his little run on now... the 'mugs' rush to him and then they are left holding the baby in 2 years.
 
not trying to be a nagative tom but even with his great start... the stats still way in the favor of him being another woulda shoulda coulda


Posted By: Lordy
Date Posted: 09 Jan 2014 at 9:04am
True. Getting early season 2yos does not transfer into long term success. People are paying more for these than they are for Snitzels. I don't see IIA having the same kind of stats as him long term.

Have a look at Real Saga last year. After taking out the MM 2yo everybody wanted them. Fair to say his production has dropped off a bit since then.

On the flip side if sires don't get those early runners the market drops off them pretty quick.


Posted By: Faster Runner
Date Posted: 09 Jan 2014 at 9:15am
I think on this occasion you are death ridding the wrong stallion.

He may well be the next fastnet etc


Posted By: Lordy
Date Posted: 09 Jan 2014 at 9:37am
I would hope so cuz they are paying as much for them.   


Posted By: runnerdance
Date Posted: 09 Jan 2014 at 9:43am
Originally posted by Faster Runner Faster Runner wrote:

I think on this occasion you are death ridding the wrong stallion.

He may well be the next fastnet etc
 
i reckon a bookie would bet you 50/1 on that statement...
 
i want to go on the record today of saying after all hype and spruik IAI stats wont even be 50% of fastnet stats.
 
stop the clock today with fastnet 610 starts for 53 stakes winners @ 600 odd starters IAI wont have even close to 25 stakeswinners


Posted By: djebel
Date Posted: 09 Jan 2014 at 12:55pm
I Am Very Good


http://www.thoroughbredinternet.com/pedigree.html?id=330008" rel="nofollow - Invincible Spirit  has proved a big success since retiring to stud in 2003. Although a Group One winner, he hadn’t been a truly top-class racehorse, so didn’t start his stud career with particularly high expectations at either the Irish National Stud nor Chatswood Stud in Victoria, whither he shuttled during the first four years of his second career. During his first Australian season he covered only 48 mares, but from this relatively unremarkable bunch came the high-class sprinter  http://www.thoroughbredinternet.com/pedigree.html?id=2384181" rel="nofollow - I Am Invincible . That colt’s racing career exceeded expectations – and now that he is a stallion at Yarraman Park Stud, I Am Invincible is following further in his father’s footsteps by leading some more vaunted rivals a merry dance in Australia’s first-season sires’ list, writes John Berry.

This column has put Invincible Spirit under the microscope in the past, so there is very little to add beyond observing that his Irish stud fee is now seven times higher than it was during his first season. This tells us all that we need to know about how successful he has been, bearing in mind that the majority of stallions are standing for lower fees after a decade at stud than at the outset – if, indeed, they are still at stud at all.

Invincible Spirit must have been relatively hard to sell to Australian mare owners at the outset, notwithstanding that he was a Group One-winning sprinter. He had been late-maturing, breaking through at Group One level as a five-year-old, and came from a family more notable for producing stayers than sprinters. Furthermore,  http://www.thoroughbredinternet.com/pedigree.html?id=1323707" rel="nofollow - Green Desert  would have been merely a minor, rather than major, attraction as a sire of sires, notwithstanding that his son  http://www.thoroughbredinternet.com/pedigree.html?id=743833" rel="nofollow - Volksraad was doing very well at stud in New Zealand, while another son ( http://www.thoroughbredinternet.com/pedigree.html?id=1112144" rel="nofollow - Desert Sun ) had sired the mighty racemare  http://www.thoroughbredinternet.com/pedigree.html?id=675205" rel="nofollow - Sunline  there (and has subsequently developed another claim to fame in Australia as the sire of  http://www.thoroughbredinternet.com/pedigree.html?id=2399073" rel="nofollow - Helsinge , who has shot to stardom in recent years as the dam of  http://www.thoroughbredinternet.com/pedigree.html?id=2399074" rel="nofollow - Black Caviarhttp://www.thoroughbredinternet.com/pedigree.html?id=2418556" rel="nofollow - All Too Hard  et al.).

In truth, Invincible Spirit’s true merit as a stallion did not begin to become clear until his first European two-year-olds starting running in 2006. Many of them ran very well, so much so that he set a new European record for individual juvenile winners, passing the total of 34 posted by http://www.thoroughbredinternet.com/pedigree.html?id=1208841" rel="nofollow - Fasliyev  three years previously. His stud fee for 2007 duly shot up from 10,000 euros to 35,000 euros. His first-crop three-year-old  http://www.thoroughbredinternet.com/pedigree.html?id=2385570" rel="nofollow - Lawman  then proved that he wasn’t just a sire of precocious juveniles by winning the Prix du Jockey-Club. And Invincible Spirit ceased to shuttle. His climb up the rankings has continued unabated since then thanks to the likes of  http://www.thoroughbredinternet.com/pedigree.html?id=2412378" rel="nofollow - Moonlight Cloud , http://www.thoroughbredinternet.com/pedigree.html?id=2408401" rel="nofollow - Mayson  and  http://www.thoroughbredinternet.com/pedigree.html?id=2387201" rel="nofollow - Fleeting Spirit , and his fee is now 70,000 euros. Lawman, in turn, is now doing more to add to Invincible Spirit’s reputation, having already sired three Group One winners from his first two crops including 2013 Irish 1,000 Guineas winner  http://www.thoroughbredinternet.com/pedigree.html?id=2422530" rel="nofollow - Just The Judge  and 2012 St. James’s Palace Stakes winner  http://www.thoroughbredinternet.com/pedigree.html?id=2416316" rel="nofollow - Most Improved  (who is now embarking on his own stud career at Coolmore).

Ultimately, the best horse sired by Invincible Spirit during his four seasons in Victoria was the rags-to-riches heroine  http://www.thoroughbredinternet.com/pedigree.html?id=2404704" rel="nofollow - Yosei , a brave little filly who belied her relatively uninspiring appearance by landing three Group One races including the 2010 MRC Thousand Guineas at Caulfield. That same crop, his fourth, also included the multiple Group winner  http://www.thoroughbredinternet.com/pedigree.html?id=2408671" rel="nofollow - Spirit Song . I Am Invincible, the star of his first Australian crop, set a good standard, though, being a good two-year-old who eventually trained on to become, albeit briefly, one of the best sprinters in the land.

I Am Invincible started out in Sydney trained by Toby Edmonds, who currently trains in Queensland at the Gold Coast but was based at Warwick Farm at the time. He proved to be one of the best two-year-olds in Sydney in the 2006/’07 season, getting off the mark at his home track over 1000m and recording an excellent minor placing in the Group Three AJC Kindergarten Stakes over 1100m at the same venue when third, beaten two lengths, behind another smart juvenile trained on the track,  http://www.thoroughbredinternet.com/pedigree.html?id=2384177" rel="nofollow - Forensics . The merit of this form was made very clear four weeks later when Forensics won the Golden Slipper.

During his days in Sydney, I Am Invincible won another 1000m race at Warwick Farm, but ultimately he emulated his father in reaching his peak in maturity. In fact, he got there sooner than his father had done: Invincible Spirit enjoyed his best season as a five-year-old, but I Am Invincible showed his best form as a four-year-old, by which time he had moved south to join the Victorian stable of Peter Morgan at Talwood Park near Whittlesea, 20 miles or so north of Melbourne.

Throughout his career, I Am Invincible’s biggest asset remained his brilliant speed. Of his three wins for Morgan, one (the MRC Age Handicap at Caulfield) came over 1000m, while his two stakes victories came over 1100m. His breakthrough at stakes level came as an autumn four-year-old when Morgan sent him over to Adelaide for the Group Three SAJC D. C. Mackay Stakes at Morphettville. He won this impressively, emboldening Morgan to send him back two weeks later for South Australia’s biggest sprint, the Group One SAJC Goodwood Handicap. This race was the Australian swansong of the mighty  http://www.thoroughbredinternet.com/pedigree.html?id=2348159" rel="nofollow - Takeover Target , who went into the race in great form, had been treated kindly by the handicapper and was generally expected to have little difficulty in justifying $1.40 favouritism. The champ went into the race off the back of a magnificent performance in the Group One T. J. Smith Stakes in Sydney, when he had bounced right back to his brilliant best to slam  http://www.thoroughbredinternet.com/pedigree.html?id=2395699" rel="nofollow - Northern Meteorhttp://www.thoroughbredinternet.com/pedigree.html?id=2371994" rel="nofollow - Apache Cathttp://www.thoroughbredinternet.com/pedigree.html?id=2394693" rel="nofollow - Nicconihttp://www.thoroughbredinternet.com/pedigree.html?id=2374604" rel="nofollow - Racing To Win and  http://www.thoroughbredinternet.com/pedigree.html?id=2387479" rel="nofollow - Bel Mer  at weight-for-age. However, receiving only 3 kilos, I Am Invincible gave Takeover Target a real fright in the Goodwood: he was only just caught in the final strides, finishing an excellent second. The merit of I Am Invincible’s run was shown by the fact that the former Magic Millions winner  http://www.thoroughbredinternet.com/pedigree.html?id=2390510" rel="nofollow - Augusta Proud , who had been second to him two weeks previously at level weights, could only finish fourth in the Goodwood despite the fact that she was now receiving 4.5 kilos.

After a brief let-up, I Am Invincible made an early start on the spring racing, putting up a terrific performance late in the winter to win the MRC Sir John Monash Stakes at weight-for-age over 1100m at Caulfield. Disappointingly, he failed to progress as the spring went on. He could only finish eighth of nine when a strong favourite for the the Group Three MRC Bletchingly Stakes on his next start, and the justifiable hopes that his five-year-old season would see him competitive in Australia’s biggest sprints were sadly not realised. One can presume that he suffered some further training troubles as he had been lightly raced throughout his career: he was in training for four seasons but only raced 15 times. He thus retired to stud as a six-year-old in 2010 as something of a frustratingly forgotten horse, a horse who had briefly been a very good two-year-old before lying low for a couple of years, and who had then looked very good for a few months a couple of seasons ago.

Like the majority of horses sired by Invincible Spirit in Australia, I Am Invincible does not boast a particularly fashionable pedigree. However, his family is proudly Australian, and he is related to two very good and very tough sprinting racemares,  http://www.thoroughbredinternet.com/pedigree.html?id=425283" rel="nofollow - Mamzelle Pedrille  (a full-sister to I Am Invincible’s unraced second dam  http://www.thoroughbredinternet.com/pedigree.html?id=2384179" rel="nofollow - Countess Pedrille ) and  http://www.thoroughbredinternet.com/pedigree.html?id=2397680" rel="nofollow - Madame Pedrille . Countess Pedrille was a rarity in being a non-performing daughter of her dam  http://www.thoroughbredinternet.com/pedigree.html?id=643050" rel="nofollow - Sister Pedrille , a dual winner in Sydney: Sister Pedrille bred seven winners from her nine foals, while her best daughter Mamzelle Pedrille also became a good matron, breeding five winners headed by the Group Two winner (and now stallion)  http://www.thoroughbredinternet.com/pedigree.html?id=2401279" rel="nofollow - O'lonhro . It is possibly also worth mentioning that I Am Invincible shares with former Australian champion sire  http://www.thoroughbredinternet.com/pedigree.html?id=575341" rel="nofollow - Redoute's Choice  the cross of being by a son of http://www.thoroughbredinternet.com/pedigree.html?id=1090219" rel="nofollow - Danzig  from a daughter of the Golden Slipper-winning  http://www.thoroughbredinternet.com/pedigree.html?id=663707" rel="nofollow - Star Kingdom -line sire  http://www.thoroughbredinternet.com/pedigree.html?id=121558" rel="nofollow - Canny Lad .

As his credentials did not place him at the height of fashion at the outset, I Am Invincible did not retire to stud at a very high fee, kicking off at Yarraman Park Stud near Scone (NSW) at $10,000 plus GST. Australia’s other new stallions in the spring of 2010 included the top-class  http://www.thoroughbredinternet.com/pedigree.html?id=2401141" rel="nofollow - Denman as well as Redoute’s Choice’s high-class half-brother  http://www.thoroughbredinternet.com/pedigree.html?id=2397549" rel="nofollow - Manhattan Rain , plus the top-class American horses  http://www.thoroughbredinternet.com/pedigree.html?id=1625487" rel="nofollow - Medaglia D'oro  and  http://www.thoroughbredinternet.com/pedigree.html?id=2391409" rel="nofollow - Big Brown . Thus far, however, I Am Invincible is easily leading the first-season sires’ table, his 13 runners (up to the first weekend of January) having yielded three individual winners and stakes performances from  http://www.thoroughbredinternet.com/pedigree.html?id=2432899" rel="nofollow - Bassillique  (trained by I Am Invincible’s original trainer Toby Edmonds, and winner of a Listed race over 1010m at Doomben in December),  http://www.thoroughbredinternet.com/pedigree.html?id=2431266" rel="nofollow - Tetsuko  (runner-up in a Listed race over 1000m at Randwick in October) and  http://www.thoroughbredinternet.com/pedigree.html?id=2432106" rel="nofollow - Silent Whisper  (who was placed in the Group Three VRC Maribyrnong Plate at Flemington over the Carnival). Furthermore, I Am The General was a good winner over 1000m at Flemington on the same day that Bassillique won in Brisbane.

It is particularly remarkable that I Am Invincible should have such a big lead in Australia’s first-season sires’ table, bearing in mind that arguably his best son is trained (and has so far raced only) in New Zealand.  http://www.thoroughbredinternet.com/pedigree.html?id=2433153" rel="nofollow - Vinnie Eagle  cost $65,000 as a yearling in Sydney, but headed across the Tasman to join the stable of his purchaser, Tony Pike. He has now won both his starts, most recently taking the Group Three ARC Eclipse Stakes over 1200m at Ellerslie on New Year’s Day, and is likely to be heading back to the country of his birth sooner rather than later, with the $200,000 Inglis Classic at Rosehill on 18th January being his most immediate aim.

A prompt start with his first batch of two-year-olds does not automatically guarantee a successful stud career for a stallion, but it certainly offers plenty of encouragement. It is not unreasonable, therefore, to believe that I Am Invincible is going to follow further in his distinguished father’s footsteps by continuing to work his way up the stallions’ rankings.

HOOFNOTE - I Am Invincible's tally of winners rose further the day this article went up on the site, I Am Snippety winning by two and three-quarter lengths over 1000m at Wagga.

http://www.thoroughbredinternet.com/newssearch.html?Keywords=2296=Search" rel="nofollow"> 



-------------
reductio ad absurdum


Posted By: TOLEDO
Date Posted: 09 Jan 2014 at 2:57pm
Good to see. My boy is still in the paddock doing well, if not the biggest.



Posted By: Faster Runner
Date Posted: 11 May 2014 at 12:20am
Looking the real deal with 6 stakes horses now
Better mares to come this year
WOW


Posted By: lulu
Date Posted: 12 May 2014 at 2:03am
The true test will be to see if they train on. Yet to be determined.


Posted By: furious
Date Posted: 12 May 2014 at 5:48pm
He is breed Danzig/Bletchingly from the 1-n family (of so many good stallions including Heroic, Zeditave, High Chaparral etc) and has proven he can cross well with Danzig or Bletchingly line mares or mares carrying both and that covers a good deal of our broodmare bands.

He has had more to race than all the other first season sires which suggests they are early comers. He had very good numbers on the ground with 133 foals in his first crop which must of been a good one. His numbers have been steadily rising ever since with 174 in 2013. A stallion like Nicconi started with more, 156, and then in two years was down to 119 but up to 156 for 2013.

Medaglia d'Oro started with 97 went up to 108 then down to 86 and up to 118 so maybe the confidence isn't as strong.

So far as training on it probably is safe to say some will and some wont. It doesn't only depend on the stallion but on the whole his family has improved with age.


Posted By: troppo75
Date Posted: 12 May 2014 at 6:32pm
Early ripe, early rotten

Why aren't other studs bringing out some group performed Invincible Spirit sires? Is it just me who thinks there's a bandwagon to jump on here?? Party


-------------
Now having passed 1000 posts I feel you are all so much the wiser for my having said... stuff!


Posted By: Second Chance
Date Posted: 12 May 2014 at 6:46pm
Why would his stock fail to train on?
He won two stakes events (Gp 3 and Listed) as a rising 5yo and was Gp 1 placed at that age also. The fact he can get early winners is just a welcome bonus imo.
                                                    


Posted By: troppo75
Date Posted: 13 May 2014 at 10:00pm
History has shown time and time again sires who get early runners dont often have the stock train on. Anyone can quote exceptions... Rory's Jester had great 2yos.. but very few good 'older' horses. Redoutes is the same.

Anyone can pull out one or 2 horses that were reasonable at 4 or 5. The reality is though the sires who get early developing horses don't tend to have stock that will go on with it. 

As stated in an earlier comment, if the mare throws her genes into it then the foal may mature late and excel at 3 or 4. The market loves these 2yo runners though but dont expect big things from I Am Invincible as one to throw horses that run early and keep going on with it.




-------------
Now having passed 1000 posts I feel you are all so much the wiser for my having said... stuff!


Posted By: furious
Date Posted: 13 May 2014 at 10:27pm
Redoute's best horse this season is not a two year old.  Most of his in recent years have been three or older - Lankan Rupee, Master of Design, Bonaria, A Time for Julia, Burgundy, Dystopia, Red Lord, Sister Madly etc all won stakes at four years or above.

He had about three top two year crops the rest have all been three and above for the majority of his crops.  Rory's Jester could get older winners also but the vast majority were fast maturing types.  Smaller than most of the Redoute's etc.

I am Invincible has a long way to go before he is anywhere near Rory's Jester let alone Redoute's but he has had more stakes winners in his first two year runners than Redoute's did.


Posted By: Second Chance
Date Posted: 14 May 2014 at 12:51pm
Originally posted by troppo75 troppo75 wrote:

History has shown time and time again sires who get early runners dont often have the stock train on. The reality is though the sires who get early developing horses don't tend to have stock that will go on with it. 
 
There doesn't appear to be many flash in the pans amongst this lot:
 

Year

Leading 1st Year Sire

Position on

Career

 

 

General sires List

Stakeswinners

 

 

2013/14

 

 

 

 

 

2001

Lion Hunter

prem deceased

17

2002

General Nediym

prem deceased

45

2003

Redoute's Choice from

1st

105

 

Commands and

7th

56

 

Mossman

5th

27

2004

More Than Ready

19th

64

2005

Show A Heart

30th

17

2006

Choisir

12th

41

2007

Exceed And Excel

3rd

53

2008

Charge Forward from

71st

11

 

Fastnet Rock

4th

54

2009

Stratum

14th

21

2010

Written Tycoon

36th

5



Posted By: Gay3
Date Posted: 14 May 2014 at 1:22pm
Could arguably add Sebring to that list too Smile

-------------
Wisdom has been chasing me but I've always outrun it!


Posted By: Speediskey
Date Posted: 14 May 2014 at 1:43pm
Originally posted by Gay3 Gay3 wrote:

Could arguably add Sebring to that list too Smile

Not really though, it's a list of first season sire winners, he didn't win, the fact he is now miles ahead of Northern Meteor kind of goes the other way to proving it if anything.


Posted By: Progold
Date Posted: 14 May 2014 at 2:32pm
Is everyone prepared to say that the first season's sires title is a forgone conclusion at this point in time?  Northern Meteor was behind Real Saga at this point last year. 


Posted By: Second Chance
Date Posted: 14 May 2014 at 2:53pm
Originally posted by Speediskey Speediskey wrote:

Originally posted by Gay3 Gay3 wrote:

Could arguably add Sebring to that list too Smile
 
Not really though, it's a list of first season sire winners, he didn't win, the fact he is now miles ahead of Northern Meteor kind of goes the other way to proving it if anything.
 
Northern Meteor's 3yo's have done very well in 2013/14 with six individual 3yo stakewinners and $4.35m in prizemoney, though clearly not as well as Sebring.  NM is already in the Leading 20 sires in the General Sires List with just the two crops of racing age with Sebring ahead of him at 9th.
 
Progold suspect it would be extremely surprising were I Am Invincible not the Leading First Season sire, particularly with Medaglia d'Oro's best 2yo now in the paddock. 
 
Who can say with any real authority whether his stock will train on or not, but would be fairly confident that MdO's will.


Posted By: Progold
Date Posted: 14 May 2014 at 3:09pm
There is easily $500k just for the winners of the major Brisbane 2yo races still over Winter.  There are 7 stallions withing that amount of I Am Invincible on the Sires List.  At this time last year, Northern Meteor from memory trailed Real Saga by around $500k and won the title by probably $200k.  Both had over $1 million in prizemoney leading into the Winter, so maybe we need to consider that all First Season Sires winners are not equal.


Posted By: Second Chance
Date Posted: 14 May 2014 at 3:55pm
They're all equal in the record books, but some are rather more equal than others.  Wink


Posted By: Speediskey
Date Posted: 14 May 2014 at 4:16pm
Yeah this one is over, Medaglia d'Oro couldve won with Meursault, without him he won't.


Posted By: shutthegate01
Date Posted: 16 May 2014 at 10:31pm
And he keeps rolling out the winners they look very nice types
Today at Scone with first (Voodoo Lad) and third (Bulletproof Monk) home in the $100,000 Inglis Scone 2YO Challenge.


Posted By: djebel
Date Posted: 26 Nov 2014 at 4:27pm
THIS SEASON STATS
Winners:Runners:Wnrs/Rnrs:Stks Wnrs (Wins):Total Earnings:
366158.35 (7)$1,025,605+



-------------
reductio ad absurdum


Posted By: whitt0
Date Posted: 26 Nov 2014 at 4:50pm
He is proving to be outstanding. 

High winners/runners & high avg earn/runners

An attractive fee compared to some of the other higher priced options. 


Posted By: Gee Gee
Date Posted: 26 Nov 2014 at 5:06pm

8% SW strike rate to runners. Crikey!!

Need to find myself a Lohnro mare


Posted By: djebel
Date Posted: 27 Nov 2014 at 1:04pm
20 Winners from 40 Runners
Tara Madgwick - Thursday, 27 November 2014

I Am Invincible sired his 20th individual winner this season when two year-old colt Invincible Man saluted on debut at Ascot on Wednesday before bad weather forced postponement of the entire meeting.

I Am Invincible
I Am Invincible
The Neville Parnham trained Invincible Man did best in a thrilling finish to score a short half head win in the 1000 metre dash.

A $40,000 Inglis Classic purchase for his trainer from the Booralie Stud draft at the Inglis Classic Yearling Sale, Invincible Man is the fifth winner for Wasabi Miss and comes from the family of Group III winner Squamosa and stakes-winners Phered and Class Success.

Invincible Man is interestingly bred along similar lines to I Am Invincible’s Group I winner Brazen Beau in that both colts have a grand-dam by champion sire Bletchingly so have a double cross of the influential speed influence.

I Am Invincible has sired his 20 winners this season from just 40 runners giving him a remarkable 50% winners to runners making him a friend to not only breeders and owners, but also smart punters!

Leading Australian Second Season Sires by Earnings Top Five  

Stallions

Rnrs

Wnrs

SW(SWins)

Earnings

Best Performer

I Am Invincible

40

20

1(2)

$1,042,005

Brazen Beau - 414,200

Turffontein

16

3

2(3)

$873,910

Fontein Ruby - 663,000

Manhattan Rain

38

11

1(1)

$794,780

Moonovermanhattan - 192,400

Mastercraftsman (IRE)

14

4

1(1)

$578,980

Thunder Lady - 371,775

Medaglia d'Oro (USA)

30

12

2(2)

$523,350

Nostradamus - 132,050


I Am Invincible is also riding high on the Australian Three Year Old Sires List by winners, placed second only to Australia’s most expensive sire Fastnet Rock.

Leading Australian Three Year Old Sires by Winners 

Stallion

Rnrs

Wnrs

SW(SWins)

Earnings

Best Performer

Fastnet Rock

58

20

6(8)

$2,311,226

First Seal - 481,475

I Am Invincible

35

18

1(2)

$931,880

Brazen Beau - 414,200

Stratum

33

18

2(3)

$918,371

Stratum Star - 250,200

Sebring

41

17

1(1)

$787,465

Bring Me the Maid - 143,200

Snitzel

41

17

0(0)

$708,135

Golconda - 108,500

Given that I Am Invincible’s current crop of three year-olds were conceived from a fee of $11,000, his effort to be matching strides with the likes of the above illustrious sires is nothing short of amazing.

I Am Invincible has been fully booked this spring at Yarraman Park at the increased fee of $27,500 and has big consignments of yearlings to be offered at the 2015 Magic Millions and Inglis Classic Yearling Sales.

News from Yarraman Park



-------------
reductio ad absurdum


Posted By: Ringlock
Date Posted: 10 Dec 2014 at 5:54pm
I know there were a few doubters around who reckoned I Am Invincible would be a flash in the pan but he's proving himself again this season, as a sire of both 2yos and 3yos. And now the Godolphin/Darley outfit pay him the ultimate compliment of buying his first Group 1 winner to stand at stud next year.

http://breednet.com.au/news/106876/Darley-Purchase-Brazen-Beau




Posted By: whitt0
Date Posted: 10 Dec 2014 at 7:45pm
He will be a breed shaper. I also think Zebdee will be a good acquisition for Cornerstone


Posted By: bradjm
Date Posted: 10 Dec 2014 at 9:42pm
We have two standout stallions courtesy of canny lad, great to see his blood live on.


Posted By: whitt0
Date Posted: 10 Dec 2014 at 9:46pm
For sure - how are your lot travelling Brad?


Posted By: furious
Date Posted: 11 Dec 2014 at 8:46am
And Canny's pedigree has so much in it of the great Australasian sires and raceshorses of the past. I know of no use to pedigrees today but nice to know their blood is still alive also when we went through such a long era of ignoring local blood.

 You have our first Champion The Barb (Australian Derby), Melbourne Cup, Sydney Cup (twice), Great Metropolitan S etc), Goldsbrough (great early sire and grandson of Juliet my favourite imported mare), Carbine (you all know him), Wallace (great racehore -Sydney Cup, Victoria Derby, Caulfield Guineas, Champion S etc and great sire with the equivalent of 31 G1 winners off crops of between 15 and 30 foals), Martian (this time a great New Zealand sire being Champion sire there six times) and then the modern Champions Biscay and Bletchingly.  

Of course he also gives us access to imported greats both mares and stallions also who you can't find in overseas pedigrees - usually.  

Marchioness imported back in the 1850's won the Epsom Oaks.  At stud she produced two outstanding racehorses and at least three sons sired stakes winners of the like of Robinson Crusoe (by Angler) who defied the sea after he had won the AJC Derby, Champagne S and Sire's Produce S to win a further six or seven stakes and then become an outstanding sire himself.  Trident was probably his best winning the AJC & VRC Derby's, Australian Cup, AJC Sires' Produce S, Champion S, both St Legers etc.

Then there is The Welkin (sire of Furious-AJC Champagne S, Sire' Produce S, Rawson S, VRC Oaks & Derby etc, Thrice -VRC Sires' Produce S, Caulfield Guineas, AJC Champagne S, AJC Sires' Produce S, Ascot Vale S etc and his greatest son Gloaming a champion in both New Zealand and Australia.

Beau Pere can actually be found in overseas pedigrees because after he stood in both New Zealand (twice Champion sire) and Australia (three times Champion Sire) he was exported to the USA.  He was a son of a Champion filly in Cinna (ancestress of Vice Regal and Show a Heart)

And of course the more modern Star Kingdom (great sire) and Lunchtime.  

So while the imported bluebloods have some great ancestors whom we have all read about and maybe seen on film Canny Lad's family is helping keep some great blood alive also.


Posted By: furious
Date Posted: 11 Dec 2014 at 9:12am
Woops forgot to add Musket and Trenton to the above list.


Posted By: Dizzy
Date Posted: 11 Dec 2014 at 1:42pm
Just looking through the 2015 MM catalogue, he certainly throws lovely types. (I AM Invincible)


Posted By: chase misty
Date Posted: 17 Dec 2014 at 4:24pm
Heard a rumour that he will be standing for $50,000 next season?



Posted By: whitt0
Date Posted: 17 Dec 2014 at 4:27pm
Not surprised. I reckon they could get $66k :(.

He is a star!


Posted By: goldey
Date Posted: 03 Feb 2015 at 6:38pm
$55000 fee now official !


Posted By: furious
Date Posted: 03 Feb 2015 at 7:09pm
Gee I think maybe $40,000.  I love the horse but why do our sire fees go up on Yearling Sale results.  He's serving well over 100 mares at the moment.  $55000 will knock out the little breeders unless they have bought into the horse.  Lets hope some of them have so they can keep going to him.


Posted By: Off and racing
Date Posted: 03 Feb 2015 at 10:30pm
He's got off to a good start for an unexpected dark horse, now they have taken a lot if the value out of his fee and he is on par with some of the big boys. Listed at $11000 more you can get your mare a date with Sepoy or More than Ready I know where I would be going 10 times out of 10.


Posted By: whitt0
Date Posted: 03 Feb 2015 at 10:36pm
Very good point OandR.

For me, I would still go to IAmInv before both of those.......I know shoot me!

More than Ready stats have gone off the boil (still top sire though) whilst Sepoy is untested out of the ring... but he will be good.

I sound like a Yarrman Park employee - but the results achieved by Iam Inv in the first 2 years are rarely seen. HE is a standout. Unless he has a shocker in subsequent years, his results will make a big impact to the industry.


Posted By: Lordy
Date Posted: 03 Feb 2015 at 11:02pm
That's a massive jump in fee. I mentioned in another thread about Starcraft kicking butt with his first crop but went off the boil later on. Those that went to him at his inflated service fee took a bath when those finally hit the sales.

You would like to see IamI get a few real good ones with his 2nd crop before jumping in at that price.


Posted By: bradjm
Date Posted: 03 Feb 2015 at 11:02pm
Sepoy unproven mtr on the wane

Iai performing of pretty average mares

I know where I'd be going 10 times out of 10


Posted By: bradjm
Date Posted: 03 Feb 2015 at 11:04pm
Originally posted by Lordy Lordy wrote:

That's a massive jump in fee. I mentioned in another thread about Starcraft kicking butt with his first crop but went off the boil later on. Those that went to him at his inflated service fee took a bath when those finally hit the sales.

You would like to see IamI get a few real good ones with his 2nd crop before jumping in at that price.



Yes but starcraft got a good book of mares

You could have got into Iai for 5k a couple of years back, the quality of mare would have jumped considerably last season


Posted By: Lordy
Date Posted: 03 Feb 2015 at 11:24pm
Originally posted by bradjm bradjm wrote:

Originally posted by Lordy Lordy wrote:

That's a massive jump in fee. I mentioned in another thread about Starcraft kicking butt with his first crop but went off the boil later on. Those that went to him at his inflated service fee took a bath when those finally hit the sales.

You would like to see IamI get a few real good ones with his 2nd crop before jumping in at that price.



Yes but starcraft got a good book of mares

You could have got into Iai for 5k a couple of years back, the quality of mare would have jumped considerably last season

You would still want to see him continue to kick goals beyond his first crop when they jump from $5k to $55k


Posted By: sweetvictory
Date Posted: 04 Feb 2015 at 12:19pm
Too greedy Too quick IMO Obviously the demand is there but i don't think he's earned such a price tag as yet, maybe a few more group winners.

-------------
3..2..1..Big rocket go now!


Posted By: Lordy
Date Posted: 04 Feb 2015 at 1:29pm
Originally posted by sweetvictory sweetvictory wrote:

Too greedy Too quick IMO Obviously the demand is there but i don't think he's earned such a price tag as yet, maybe a few more group winners.

$55K places him among some of the top stallions such as EDL, MTR, Snitzel, Sebring etc. He'll need to get a few stakeswinners with his 2nd crop to justify that.

Then again you could also argue he's achieved a lot more At stud than the likes of Pierro and All Too Hard who cost more.   


Posted By: troppo75
Date Posted: 04 Feb 2015 at 6:07pm
I agree with O&R.. I would place him before MTR and Sepoy.

Been looking at the types he's throwing even at the lesser upcoming Inglis Summer sale, they are beauties. They keep running as 2yos and it's what the market wants.

I'm quite surprised more studs haven't jumped onto the Invincible Spirit factor. At least my local boys at Cornerstone have woken up to it. Inv Spirit clicks out here. 


-------------
Now having passed 1000 posts I feel you are all so much the wiser for my having said... stuff!


Posted By: Banjo
Date Posted: 04 Feb 2015 at 7:31pm
His results with the average quality of mares he has served is outstanding and Yarraman Park deserve a fee increase but at  $55k it places him up against the better sires so it will be interesting what demand he attracts in that market at that price .

He is stamping his progeny with mares he has been serving so it might not make as much difference as you think to his results with better quality mares.


Posted By: whitt0
Date Posted: 04 Feb 2015 at 10:18pm
Will be interesting what price Zebdee comes up!


Posted By: Gay3
Date Posted: 05 Feb 2015 at 8:30am
I heard Sam Hayes about 6/8wks ago on Breeding with Shane Anderson & for some reason I have about 11k stuck in my mind as the figure they'd be working around.

-------------
Wisdom has been chasing me but I've always outrun it!


Posted By: Stoney
Date Posted: 05 Feb 2015 at 8:02pm
At $11k and trading down off of that I think Zebedee should get good patronage, maybe they will have a rethink in light of where IAI has been set?


Posted By: whitt0
Date Posted: 05 Feb 2015 at 8:41pm
Originally posted by Stoney Stoney wrote:

At $11k and trading down off of that I think Zebedee should get good patronage, maybe they will have a rethink in light of where IAI has been set?

Maybe - but unproven in Aus & its the land of the Aus sprinter not UK sprinter.




Posted By: goldey
Date Posted: 05 Feb 2015 at 9:02pm
A lot to like about Zebedee's female line also , not too shabby imo.


Posted By: slowdown
Date Posted: 05 Feb 2015 at 9:17pm
wonder how much first season...?


Posted By: ENJOY
Date Posted: 06 Feb 2015 at 8:13am
Captain Gerrard again. 


Posted By: chase misty
Date Posted: 06 Feb 2015 at 8:23am
Originally posted by Stoney Stoney wrote:

At $11k and trading down off of that I think Zebedee should get good patronage, maybe they will have a rethink in light of where IAI has been set?

I have heard that the fee isn't set yet but thinking $14 - $15,000 may trade down on multiple bookings. Another unrelated stud has booked 12 mares in. I have booked a mare in. Invincible Spirit is obviously working in Australia and this horse is a proven stallion. It is all a risk but much cheaper than IamI plus the first season factor should work for him in the sale ring.


Posted By: bradjm
Date Posted: 06 Feb 2015 at 9:33am
Originally posted by chase misty chase misty wrote:


Originally posted by Stoney Stoney wrote:

At $11k and trading down off of that I think Zebedee should get good patronage, maybe they will have a rethink in light of where IAI has been set?


I have heard that the fee isn't set yet but thinking $14 - $15,000 may trade down on multiple bookings. Another unrelated stud has booked 12 mares in. I have booked a mare in. Invincible Spirit is obviously working in Australia and this horse is a proven stallion. It is all a risk but much cheaper than IamI plus the first season factor should work for him in the sale ring.



Of course the difference is iai is out of a nice colonial canny lad mare


Posted By: goldey
Date Posted: 06 Feb 2015 at 11:57am
The double of Rockefella in IS going to sit well with bletchingly and danzig , 4 out of the 5 IAI stakeswinners give testiment t to that .


Posted By: goldey
Date Posted: 13 Feb 2015 at 7:17am
17600k for Zebedee, any thoughts ion thvat one .


Posted By: whitt0
Date Posted: 13 Feb 2015 at 7:21am
^ was considering a couple but will pass now.


Posted By: Fremz
Date Posted: 13 Feb 2015 at 7:51am
Zebedee looks a pretty plain type for mine - I know it's always harder to distinguish with greys but he doesn't look anything outstanding physically.

His record speaks for itself both on the track and his first racing crop as well, plus he should match up well with Danehill lines

I'm sure SA breeders wanting a 2yo will flock to him, there aren't that many 2yo stallions over that way

-------------
for those about to punt, we salute you...


Posted By: Lordy
Date Posted: 13 Feb 2015 at 8:21am
$17k seems fair enough given his start in Europe. Plenty that cost far more who are unproven commodities.


Posted By: troppo75
Date Posted: 14 Feb 2015 at 5:31pm
Priced around 12k I think Zebedee could have attracted a book of 90 - 100 mares which would be a considerable effort for a sire in SA.

He will still attract mares from interstate but he's going to have lost some admirers in the breed to race category. Grey sires will always be a hard sell though, the asian market doesn't really want grey foals.


-------------
Now having passed 1000 posts I feel you are all so much the wiser for my having said... stuff!


Posted By: Off and racing
Date Posted: 14 Feb 2015 at 7:07pm
Brad I agree with you 100% I think canny lad has something to do with why he is going so well. I think Zeb will not be as successful and is overpriced


Posted By: whitt0
Date Posted: 14 Feb 2015 at 7:26pm
^ that is a +1 from me as well.

They missed a good opportunity to price Zebdee to gain max traction.

Timeform of 128 good but not as high or as well performed as Dawn Approach.

UK sprinters in Aus....?


Posted By: furious
Date Posted: 14 Feb 2015 at 9:04pm
Do alright Whitto.  Remember Star Kingdom was a sprinter from England/Ireland.  A little neddy by the name of Lunchtime was pretty fast as well.  Thanks to him we have Snippets and Pins etc.  And don't forget that Danehill was also an English raced sprinter.  


Posted By: whitt0
Date Posted: 15 Feb 2015 at 6:22am
Fair point furious.

Just finished updating the 2nd season stats for this year:

IamInv well on top!

Stallion W/R SR% SW/R % Earn/R
I Am Invincible (AUS) 2004 - 2010 48.6% 1.4% $23,320.86
Wilander (AUS) 2005 - 2010 45.5% 0.0% $21,459.55
Universal Ruler (AUS) 2004 - 2010 44.8% 0.0% $16,720.00
Medaglia d'Oro (USA) 1999 - 2005 44.2% 7.0% $23,100.47
Manhattan Rain (AUS) 2006 - 2010 44.0% 2.0% $22,429.30
Mastercraftsman (IRE) 2006 - 2010 35.0% 5.0% $32,870.00
Von Costa de Hero (AUS) 2005 - 2010 34.4% 0.0% $12,514.38
All American (AUS) 2005 - 2010 32.6% 0.0% $10,574.78
Red Element (AUS) 2004 - 2010 32.1% 0.0% $10,380.36
Onemorenomore (AUS) 2006 - 2010 31.3% 2.1% $10,941.98
Wicked Style (USA) 2005 - 2010 28.6% 2.9% $14,289.29
Bushranger (IRE) 2006 - 2010 27.8% 0.0% $6,690.83
Time Thief (AUS) 2005 - 2010 27.3% 0.0% $8,534.45
Duporth (AUS) 2005 - 2010 27.1% 0.0% $11,297.81
Turffontein (AUS) 2004 - 2010 25.9% 7.4% $40,915.74
Nicconi (AUS) 2005 - 2010 24.6% 0.0% $8,126.81
Big Brown (USA) 2005 - 2009 23.7% 0.0% $7,182.37
Discorsi (AUS) 2003 - 2010 21.7% 0.0% $15,384.78
Wanted (AUS) 2006 - 2010 21.4% 0.0% $13,858.46
Denman (AUS) 2006 - 2010 14.9% 2.1% $12,883.30


Posted By: slowdown
Date Posted: 15 Feb 2015 at 7:19am
is that av earnings per race or per runner Whitto ? im guessing per runner.



Print Page | Close Window

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.05 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Copyright ©2001-2022 Web Wiz Ltd. - https://www.webwiz.net