Annenkov
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Category: Horse Breeding - Public Forums
Forum Name: Stallions
Forum Description: Stallion appraisals and trends
URL: https://forum.thoroughbredvillage.com.au/forum_posts.asp?TID=34289
Printed Date: 18 Apr 2024 at 2:09pm
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Topic: Annenkov
Posted By: tauto
Subject: Annenkov
Date Posted: 07 Aug 2011 at 10:16pm
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Looks like l will be sending my Van Nistleroy mare to Annenkov at Allandale stud as she's suited to Danehill types. Any thoughts? ------------- TAUTO/WINFREUX |
Replies:
Posted By: v and m
Date Posted: 08 Aug 2011 at 3:51pm
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danehill duplications too close ------------- ZAMINGA |
Posted By: maxamill
Date Posted: 08 Aug 2011 at 5:32pm
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sons of storm cat x danehill line been quite successful, i would of thought ????, throw in mr P and thats seems even better???? , VM i would of thought you are talking northern dancer , well he is one of the most successful inbreeding lines ever crossed , |
Posted By: Run For Fun
Date Posted: 08 Aug 2011 at 6:22pm
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Foal would be in-bred 2m x 3m to Danehill. ------------- It's hard to soar with eagles... Cheers |
Posted By: Run For Fun
Date Posted: 08 Aug 2011 at 7:15pm
That's only if the mare is by Van Nistleroy. If by Van Nistelrooy it's a totally different story as suggested by Max. So maybe a clarification and the name of the mare before offering further comment. ------------- It's hard to soar with eagles... Cheers |
Run For Fun wrote:Posted By: maxamill
Date Posted: 08 Aug 2011 at 9:21pm
| i remember a an artical from a very renowned leading breeder, the one thing better that danehill is more danehill with a little chilli , the chilli is mr prospector or in later day rorys jester unbelievable strike rate |
Posted By: Run For Fun
Date Posted: 08 Aug 2011 at 9:44pm
Well the figures to date don't appear to support the comment (ie the one thing better than danehill is more danehill) by that un-named but renowned leading breeder.  ------------- It's hard to soar with eagles... Cheers |
Posted By: tauto
Date Posted: 08 Aug 2011 at 9:53pm
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i was led to believe same Danehill/Danzig was a great fit for for Van Nistlerooy mares!!! What else are you recommending? What about Armadeus Wolf or Widden Valley Court Of Jewels? ------------- TAUTO/WINFREUX |
Posted By: Run For Fun
Date Posted: 08 Aug 2011 at 10:02pm
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Tauto, more the success of Danehill/Danzig with Storm Cat as distinct from VN - and more so in the NH. And mate it's difficult to be more forthcoming if we don't know the bottom-half breeding of your mare, and where she's situated. ------------- It's hard to soar with eagles... Cheers |
Posted By: tauto
Date Posted: 08 Aug 2011 at 10:10pm
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Swanz is the mare 7yo just retired. ------------- TAUTO/WINFREUX |
Posted By: maxamill
Date Posted: 08 Aug 2011 at 10:58pm
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Moving on from the most popular choices, let’s examine the sires
that have the best records with Danehill mares. In that vein, we
have collated a table showing stallions who have 3 or more SW to
Danehill mares.
Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but the table above shows a few
missed opportunities for those owners of Danehill mares (and
mares by sons of Danehill).
Quest For Fame and Zabeel top this list, but as two of the four
most popular choices for Danehill mares it makes some sense for
them to be here. Both are available to Australian breeders.
Giant’s Causeway is one who arguably should have served more
Danehill mares than he did. By Storm Cat from a Rahy mare, he
offered a reasonable outcross for Danehill (just the 4mx4m cross to
Northern Dancer); and standing at Coolmore Stud it seemed logical
that he would attract Danehill mares. With only 25 named foals
from Danehill mares, it would appear that those owners were focusing
their attentions elsewhere. A shame, as his figures with
Danehill, in hindsight, have been pretty exciting; especially for the
owners of Gr1 winners Just Momente (SAJC Robert Sangster S) and
in the northern hemisphere, Intense Focus (Dewhurst Stakes).
Giant’s Causeway is now solely based in the northern hemisphere
and offers a strong option for Danehill mares based there. |
Posted By: maxamill
Date Posted: 08 Aug 2011 at 11:09pm
| rff the unnamed breeder , being john messara arrowfield stud |
Posted By: maxamill
Date Posted: 08 Aug 2011 at 11:32pm
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tauto here is some info for your danehill stallion to swanz Danehill X Storm Bird cross has produced horses such as: Metal Bender (Rosehill Guineas), The Danzig X Storm Cat |
Posted By: tauto
Date Posted: 09 Aug 2011 at 12:24am
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Thats pretty impressive thanks for that info. Fingers crossed our offfspring measures upto some of those u mentioned!!! ------------- TAUTO/WINFREUX |
Posted By: Run For Fun
Date Posted: 09 Aug 2011 at 10:48am
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I see your mare Swanz hails from an American family containing Mr Prospector and Native Dancer in her pedigree, and that added to a desire to use a Danehill stallion means your choices are almost limitless in Oz. So maybe just comes down to your personal preference. ------------- It's hard to soar with eagles... Cheers |
Posted By: v and m
Date Posted: 09 Aug 2011 at 3:18pm
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I think Swanz would be better suited to a son of Flying Spur but anyway good luck hope you get a good one :D ------------- ZAMINGA |
Posted By: maxamill
Date Posted: 09 Aug 2011 at 6:37pm
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v and m isn,t flying spur danehill !!! and didnt you say danehill dup to close !! any way good luck with that mare tauto i see the on the owners side, you have a few country hicks as well, watch they dont buckle you in there drinking games at melb cup time
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Posted By: Progold
Date Posted: 09 Aug 2011 at 6:55pm
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There are some eleven sons of Flying Spur at stud including Krupt whose damsire is by Storm Cat. One may imagine that all eleven bring something different to the mix. Danehill/Storm Bird and Danzig/Storm Cat? How much relevance do these really have to the mare, Swanz and her family? VGS? We are obviously relying on a computer programme to plan our matings. I find it hard to imagine that there was no difference in using a stallion like Danehill or stallions like Golden Snake, Monashee Mountain or Salt Lake City without any disrespect of those stallions. Surely we realise by now that a statistical analysis cannot predict an outcome. If the first two favourites lose, and statistics prove that one in three favourites win, it does not mean that the third favourite will win. This is especially true if we are using statistics that are often meaningless in terms of sample size, or even measuring something different to what they are claiming. Just because Danzig appears in the 4th generation of a pedigree does not mean that he has the same influence on every horse that carries him in that position. It seems that his influence is apparently even consistent if we bring him forward, or push him back in a pedigree. It is up to you if you think this sort of statement makes sense or not. Midnight Lute by Real Quiet was the best runner in the family in recent times, even though there have been some decent ones. He did not carry Storm Cat, Danzig or Danehill. In fact, at a quick look at the family has me struggling to find any that carries either Danzig or Storm Cat and, considering it was based in the US where these lines are even more prevalent than Australia, that probably has to have some importance. The premise that the mare is suited to Danehill would seem to fly in the face of what has actually worked in the family. Maybe we shouldn't argue with the computer though .......
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Posted By: maxamill
Date Posted: 09 Aug 2011 at 7:34pm
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technology , well why not use it , what ever it may be , one can ask many opinions and would expect many different answers , depending on who it is asked of , I believe grandsires/dam have a lot to do with producing ,obvious better the dam and sire , but the next line being grand Pro do you believe storm cat and danehill cross well , regardless of this mare , and yes pro even you will be using computer to compare
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Posted By: Run For Fun
Date Posted: 09 Aug 2011 at 7:45pm
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Well be it right or wrong, Tauto's expressed preference for a Danehill line stallion, and Annenkov in particular, was based on the relative success of the Danzig/Storm Cat cross. And our subsequent offerings generally kept that desire in mind, quite irrespective of the computer analyses offered by one of our members who lioke us all was endeavouring to assist. Mind you I'd hesitate to use Krupt, although he was only mentioned in passing. However it's true, as suggested, that Annenkov and some other Danehill-line stallions largely ignore the bottom half of Swanz's pedigree. The converse of that is that it's not easy to find many Australian-based stallions that appear complementary to Swanz's dam Fikra. Sons of Red Ransom eg Domesday certainly appear best. But it's ultimately down to Tauto, and am sure we all wish he or she every success. ------------- It's hard to soar with eagles... Cheers |
Posted By: Progold
Date Posted: 09 Aug 2011 at 7:46pm
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I have no problem with using computers for analysis. The trouble starts when we believe the information is more than it is. Storm Cat and Danehill will succeed in certain cases, and most likely fail in lots of cases. Not all sons of Storm Cat are the same as other sons of Storm Cat, and this works with Danehill. Compatibility of pedigree is what is important. As I said in this case, the family has never had a SW through either Danzig or Storm Cat lines. Clearly it would make sense to look at this rather than saying that all Danehill line stallions will work with Storm Cat line mares. A concept of Storm Cat/Danehill is relatively meaningless, as we do not even know what we are measuring. Are you sure that it is Danehill/Storm Cat, or is it a question of balancing different lines of Northern Dancer? The result will vary depending upon which descendants are present. We know that Lonhro and Niello produced different results. If we cannot accurately predict full siblings performance, then isn't it a bit of a stretch to categorically state that it is the presence of an ancestor in the 3rd generation that is all important? Maybe we should just blame it on the Mosquito after all.
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Posted By: tauto
Date Posted: 09 Aug 2011 at 8:04pm
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Thanks for everyones input.Seems Danehill is the way to go.And drinking games at Melb Cup time will only add to the fun of the week!!! Bring on the Spring Carnival!!!! ------------- TAUTO/WINFREUX |
Posted By: v and m
Date Posted: 09 Aug 2011 at 8:07pm
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max - I was refering to the Van Nistleroy (by Danehill) mare x Annenkov (by Danehill) cross having too close a duplication of Danehill, since it has now been confirmed that it is actually Van Nistelrooy (by Storm Cat) mare (Swanz) x Annenkov then there is no duplication of Danehill in the match.
Further more the reason why I think a son of Flying Spur would suit is because he comes from the same family as Van Nistelrooy, when flying spur has been crossed with others from his own family it has produced horses like Bliss Street and Krupt
------------- ZAMINGA |
Posted By: Progold
Date Posted: 09 Aug 2011 at 8:08pm
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For a start, is it a huge assumption to say that the Danehill/Storm Cat cross is a resounding success? In this case we are looking at Danehill as a grandsire over Storm Cat as a grand damsire cross. To compare it with anything else is to compare something very different. Even if there were 10 cases of this Danzig/Storm Cat grandsire/granddamsire cross that were stakes winners, does this impact the likelihood of success of any future crosses on this basis? If your mare went to a stallion and produced a SW, can you guarantee me that the next mating between those two would be a stakes winner? Obviously not, but it seems to be implicit in the nicking theory that a past mating will influence a future one. I certainly wish tauto all the best in his/her endeavour which is exactly why some balance should come into the argument. Again, the family has never produced a stakes horse from either a Danzig or a Storm Cat line stallion. Is it possible that the assumption of Danehill/Storm Cat might not be relevant in this case even if it was accepted? Real Quiet, Gilded Time and Dehere have all been prominent in past stakeswinners in the family. These influences may well be available in Australia. I am not even suggesting that Danehill would not play a part in the pedigree, but as part of a wider pedigree. Obviously with the prevalence of Danehill, it is hard to find non-Danehill lines. He is not a weakness, but it isn't necessarily the key to a pedigree which is the original assumption which is basically that any son/grandson of Danehill is like any other.
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Posted By: Progold
Date Posted: 09 Aug 2011 at 8:10pm
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Posted By: maxamill
Date Posted: 09 Aug 2011 at 8:10pm
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information is information, it is then in the hands of the interperter , and as you would know i could give information to 10 diferent people and get 10 differing answers , from 1 spectrum to another , I class danehill as a true champion stallion , and i would go as close to him as i posssible could, not flying spur or sons of, i also class storm cat as a champion stallion , and would do the same but given there both dead i would try and go as close as possible , and yes no cross is guarenteed but the facts are danehill and storm cat have success any way i look at it , call it northern dancer or what ever u will and you are right they may fail in a lot of cases , as everything , thats why we have statistics , As with Niello and Lonhro ,and the 5 other full siblings , well they didnt do anything near these 2 so would we say that mating is no good !!!!
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Posted By: tauto
Date Posted: 09 Aug 2011 at 8:13pm
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What other stallions would you propose in Victoria? I was keen on Armadeus Wolf!! And Court Of Jewels but got one already and very happy any other suggestions. A friend suggested Dylan Thomas but l thought a bit $$$$ too much!!! And Widden Valley was stronly recommended!!! Any others? ------------- TAUTO/WINFREUX |
Posted By: Progold
Date Posted: 09 Aug 2011 at 8:16pm
| Victoria? But Annenkov stands in NSW? |
Posted By: Progold
Date Posted: 09 Aug 2011 at 8:17pm
And you don't see a problem with that? Statistics .... well
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Posted By: tauto
Date Posted: 09 Aug 2011 at 8:51pm
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NSW IS OK BUT WOULD PREFER Victoria. ------------- TAUTO/WINFREUX |
Posted By: maxamill
Date Posted: 09 Aug 2011 at 9:00pm
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no i dont , it is how they are interperated a bit like 1st season sires , because as i know alot can happen in the lead up , many many many different scenarios , why lonhro and niello siblngs didnt do any goodbut the original statement was based upon my comment danehill x stormcat was unproven , well i think they are proven and very well proven , thats all, and statistic show this, and yes on the computer and i reckon old taunto got a pretty good deal with annenkov as his pm suggested , and i actually think annenkov s dame line is better than the danehill line , but that is yet to be seen , and additionally i think swanz dame line is pretty good as well , but like all breeding and people associated with it, have likes and dislikes, have opinions and information why to and why not , , in the end it doesnt really matter, as long as you get a nice foal and you can get it to the races , for as little as possible , and i bet he certainly isnt paying 22 per say to have is mare there either , but thats about the guts of it
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Posted By: Run For Fun
Date Posted: 09 Aug 2011 at 9:01pm
IMO whoever suggested Dylan Thomas should be certified. And to a lesser extent whoever suggested Widden Valley. Not knocking the sires, just the matches. Amadeus a possibly. But if you're in Vic, want to use a Danehill-line stallion, and hope also to complement the distaff line suggest you first consider Dangerous or Al Samer amongst others. ------------- It's hard to soar with eagles... Cheers |
Posted By: v and m
Date Posted: 09 Aug 2011 at 9:40pm
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Progold - While I agree that my suggest of "a son Flying Spur" is a vague suggestion I suggested it because I understand that some people can afford to breed their mares to high priced stallions and don't have budgets but most of us do, some of us are also restricted to location and conformation therefore I suggested "a son flying spur" as a pointer in a direction he might like to look at next time within his budget. I could have suggested Magnus but what would the point of that be if he is beyond budget? and/or having never seen the mare, maybe an unsuitable conformation match
In the end tauto would be the one to make his choice based on above restrictions I do not need to point that out to him and since he has already made his choice this year it seems, any further detailed suggestions can wait until next year ------------- ZAMINGA |
Posted By: Progold
Date Posted: 10 Aug 2011 at 11:51am
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danehill x stormcat was unproven , well i think they are proven and very well proven , thats all, and statistic show this, and yes on the computer i actually think annenkov s dame line is better than the danehill line
Your support in the theory was to use a Danehill/Storm Bird and a Danzig/Storm Cat cross. The "evidence" that this is "proof" of a Danehill/Storm Cat nick seems to be statistics being used incorrectly. Neither Danehill/Storm Bird or Danzig/Storm Cat has to be Danehill/Storm Bird. We also are getting very confused as to what generations stallions are being found in. SWANZ, after all is by Van Nistlerooy who is not Storm Cat in any case, nor is he Storm Bird. Well this is a turn up as it flies in the face of what you have suggested with Danehill/Storm Cat if female lines are now important. There are lots of stallions from similar female lines, but as you have said from Lonhro and Niello, if a mating fails more often than it succeeds, it is poor. I presume the computer doesn't tell us if Annenkov was a good or bad mating. As far as Danehill's female family goes, I would think that it isn't too bad, and probably the pedigree of the stallion as a whole has a bit to say as to why he contributed to his progeny in the way that he did. my suggest of "a son Flying Spur" is a vague suggestion Indeed it was, but it also is based on an assumption that what works with Flying Spur will work with his sons. If I had a Storm Cat mare and had sent her to Flying Spur five times without success (or apparently that could include 2 group 1 winners but it still is a fail), would it still be a good strategy to send her to a son of Flying Spur? If we look at Van Nistelrooy rather than Storm Cat, we see that he carries Northern Dancer through a daughter as well as through Storm Cat. I suspect that duplications of Northern Dancer through a daughter are a different matter in Australia in particular than through his sons. In the case of Van Nistelrooy we also see that his damsire is Halo. With SWANZ, we see that her damsire is Gulch who is not often found in Australia in this position, and the next two damsires are Blue Times, a grandson of Relic, and Sea Bird. Would the presence of any of these "nick" with Danehill? Does it matter, or are they simply irrelevant to a mating?
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Posted By: tauto
Date Posted: 10 Aug 2011 at 10:14pm
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i was keen on reward for Effort!!! ------------- TAUTO/WINFREUX |
Posted By: maxamill
Date Posted: 11 Aug 2011 at 10:23pm
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understand that pro , but the gts of it is, do you think storm cat x danehill is a proven cross yes or no ! i think hell yes, as it was suggested that there was no proof of this , well i think there is , do you ? danehill is a icon of breeding not only in aust but worldwide , i would be simply crazy to question his ability as a stallion let alone query his dams the point was annekov while out of danehill, has a very respectful dam side as well and swanz where not considered greatly commercial, but hers dam isnt that bad either , and considering she sneaked over the 100 k mark in stakes i certainly would suggest she would be a mare to start your first breeding venture with ,
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Posted By: v and m
Date Posted: 12 Aug 2011 at 12:32am
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facts is better than no facts
Facts about Flying Spur:
1. From Storm Cat mares has produced 2 for 2 winners
2. From Gulch mares 2 for 2 winners
3. When Halo bloodline was crossed with Flying Spur it produced group 1 winner Sebring, with Halo and Danehill even more
also consider that mares by or with Storm Cat and Halo were not around as much when Flying Spur first went to stud as they are now so for all we know some or even all of Flying Spur's sons can be a good match for those bloodlines, nobody knows that absolutely for sure.
With all pedigree analysing its not something that can be 100% correct, it is a guess and a gamble but most of us try to work with what info we have available to us and when looking at our options we are often faced with stallions that have no record of winners or foals on the ground but are more within our budget than something that is proven. Faced with that people might then have a look at the sire of that stallion to see what bloodlines have worked for him and then compare that with bloodlines found in their mare's. If some or all of those bloodlines have nicked well with that stallion then research might be extended to look at the dam's family but with stallions with opportunity generally producing more offspring than 5 generations of mares, that can be hard to research. It gets even harder when your mare is say mainly Australian bloodlines and your options, being from overseas, have little track record with them.
Whatever you call that kind of analysing it is alot better than a stab in the dark even though most of us would agree that genetics can be just that - a stab in the dark with us hoping to find the light switch. ------------- ZAMINGA |
Posted By: Progold
Date Posted: 12 Aug 2011 at 12:17pm
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But are incorrect facts better than no facts? In all cases above, the "facts" are not actually facts at all. Danzig/Storm Cat, Danehill/Storm Bird and Flying Spur/Storm Cat/Gulch/Halo are not sons of Danehill over sons of Storm Cat. And they can never account for the individual family. Don't forget that there have been lots of cases where apparent "nicks" early in a career have been proven to perform badly overall at the end of careers. Like saying that I have thrown three heads in a row so this coin will continue to show nothing but heads. After ten throws, you may well have three heads and seven tails so the original "fact" is nothing but a fallacy. As to whether Danehill over Storm Cat lines will work, of course it will in certain instances. It will also fail in plenty of cases as well. Remember that both Danehill and Tale Of The Cat stood at Coolmore, so we will undoubtedly see this combination appear through their local breeding. In another thread about nicks, "proof" of their success was tempered by the fact that most of the successful nicks involving Danehill were all in the ownership of Coolmore. Perhaps what was actually being measured was the success of Coolmore's breeding programme (and the old chestnut of best to the best or most expensive to most expensive) rather than what was claimed to be measuring. Does it matter to anyone that the female family of Swanz has not produced a SW from ND line stallions from what I can see? Surely we are missing the female family of the mare totally in this discussion. Yet we repeatedly hear how important it is to duplicate females in pedigrees. It seems like the rules get changed repeatedly to suit whatever outcome people are looking for. And this, my friends, is detrimental to the breed, which is a major concern to me. The mare deserves the best chance of success, and frankly, these strategies to me don't look to be giving her much chance at all. When we can write off our failures as a genetic stab in the dark, it absolves the people from making suggestions from any responsibility. If I said to you to back a horse today at Geelong called Paradian because he is by a Danehill line stallion out of a Woodman line mare - just like Miss Finland - with every cent you own and he gets beaten, do I then just say, sorry I was just guessing. Obviously it is your fault or someone else's for listening to me. By the way, I have no idea how Paradian will go, I know nothing more than a couple of names in a pedigree.
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Posted By: Progold
Date Posted: 12 Aug 2011 at 12:32pm
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When Halo bloodline was crossed with Flying Spur it produced group 1 winner Sebring, Sebring is by More Than Ready, a son of Southern Halo who in turn was a son of Halo, out of a Flying Spur mare. More Than Ready x Flying Spur mares have also produced another SW in Hot'n'Ready. Interestingly Flying Spur has produced at least 2 runners from 2 mares who have Halo closer in their pedigree but has not produced a SW. Does this prove that Flying Spur/Halo is no good and that Halo/Flying Spur is a "nick?" Heaven forbid if we are actually measuring MTR/Flying Spur in the cases of the SW anyway. If Flying Spur/Halo is a failure, then to suggest a son of Flying Spur over any mare carrying Halo is reinforcing a cross. It is a problem with using statistics as "proof."
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Posted By: Run For Fun
Date Posted: 12 Aug 2011 at 12:47pm
This earlier post appears to have been largely ignored in the scheme of things:
------------- It's hard to soar with eagles... Cheers |
Posted By: Progold
Date Posted: 12 Aug 2011 at 1:43pm
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Runfer, that is true in many ways, but it also depends in a way as to how you assess pedigrees. You are looking for duplications within pedigrees by and large as a way of reinforcing characteristics. While this is one strategy, perhaps there are others, especially if we consider that close inbreeding would not have seemed successful in the family. As you are no doubt aware, one of the things I have learned from dosages is that certain characteristics can be introduced to a pedigree through different stallions. These do not necessarily have to be introduced via inbreeding. Genetics, as we know, can throw interesting results. If I was to say that certain stallions appear to have an affinity with the family, how would you look at this? Alydar, Real Quiet and Gilded Time are some stallions who have produced SW from the family. Is there something similar that these stallions bring to a mating with this family? I believe that the thoroughbred pedigree has the answers all there for us. It is a matter of looking, and I don't necessarily believe that it is often easy. If we rely on a computer program to tell us an answer as in the case of nicks, we have to be sure that we have asked the right questions.
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Posted By: maxamill
Date Posted: 12 Aug 2011 at 8:46pm
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i agree with that pro and for that runfer , but the computer can make this task a hell of a lot easier, to what it once did , many many many hrs of work of which can take minutes now , there is no magic wands , as heavens forbid we would all have one , i would even buy 2 of them , and as with all breeding let alone racing, there comes risk s and big ones , and as mentioned earlier even the great lonhro and niello ,s mum couldn,t produce anymore champs with 5 additional matings to occy so nothing is a given in this game, i have even paid in the past , breeding analysis from numerous sources for the same mares and they have come back different , so obviously there must be alot of room for interpretation but the original statement of danehill x storm cat , i believe is a good match , or more so, has the potential to be , and yes not all are good , , and yes the match in question are actually not danehill and storm cat, they are sons of , but you have to start somewhere , and with 2 good dams fikra and agathe being swanz and annenkovs dams and 2 good stallion s or for what its worth, 2nd generatioon isnt a bad start, for i am betting not a lot of buck s either most of fikra breeding was to northern dancer type while not stkes winners , there seems to be some handy horses , and i would ask why have they dupilcated with all to n d ,
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Posted By: tauto
Date Posted: 12 Aug 2011 at 8:50pm
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So Fikra is the key and look at Red Ransom Domesday sons!!! Can you suggest any? The posts are fantastic reading. ------------- TAUTO/WINFREUX |
Posted By: Run For Fun
Date Posted: 12 Aug 2011 at 9:15pm
Not really Tauto. Just suggesting that Shanz's bottom half is as important as her the top, and that Red Ransom arguably meshes with her mother Fikra. And so his sons might possibly represent reasonable matches for Swanz. If it was simple we breeders would all be rolling in coin rather than horse cr*p. ------------- It's hard to soar with eagles... Cheers |
Posted By: tauto
Date Posted: 12 Aug 2011 at 9:31pm
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True yes you are right there would be breeders everywhere!!! It's the challenge though and using all that info on both sides and looking at whats worked.It can do your head in but certainly makes the time tick by thats for sure. Its been sensational feedback l'm glad l was introduced to this site.I hardly watch tv these days!!! ------------- TAUTO/WINFREUX |
Posted By: maxamill
Date Posted: 12 Aug 2011 at 10:33pm
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Posted By: maxamill
Date Posted: 12 Aug 2011 at 10:40pm
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Posted By: tauto
Date Posted: 13 Aug 2011 at 1:27am
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Thats a very strong breeding line both sides with SW and plenty of foals by all mares with runners and winners. All looks good to me thanks everyone for your input and lets hope for a healthy bay filly 1st up!!! ------------- TAUTO/WINFREUX |
Posted By: v and m
Date Posted: 13 Aug 2011 at 5:02pm
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"one of the things I have learned from dosages is that certain characteristics can be introduced to a pedigree through different stallions."
got proof to go with that statement progold?
"But are incorrect facts better than no facts?"
last time I checked facts are something that actually exists, known to have happened and are facts until someone comes along and proves them wrong which you have not done so yet. can you be absolutely sure that any of FS's sons or any of the other suggestions that others have made wouldn't produce a good foal with Swanz?
"If I said to you to back a horse today at Geelong called Paradian because he is by a Danehill line stallion out of a Woodman line mare - just like Miss Finland - with every cent you own and he gets beaten, do I then just say, sorry I was just guessing"
every breeder gambles on their theories or someone elses and that can be things like dosage, ratings, nicks, conformation expert etc none of which can be proven to be absolutely correct in their theories. And like alot of people on this site I try to help by making suggestions of possible options while at the same time understanding some of the contraints like budget and location they have because I'm in the same boat as them as a breed to race owner. ------------- ZAMINGA |
Posted By: Progold
Date Posted: 13 Aug 2011 at 9:59pm
Did you back Paridian on the basis of it being bred on the same (?) cross as Miss Finland? If you didn't then why aren't you prepared to back the same judgement that is being offered as a mating that will cost between $20-30k to get to the yearling stage? If someone was to invest $20-30k on your suggestion, are you happy that you have invested 10 minutes on the recommendation? Breed to race owners need all the help they can get, so are you sure that you have invested the time and effort to consider all of the aspects of a mating that need to be considered? I always find it interesting that people can come up with recommendations for matings so readily. It usually takes me at least 10 hours to get close to understanding what I am even looking for, before I even start the search for an appropriate mate. No doubt I am slow. Then again, maybe I am not sure that Danehill/Storm Bird is the same in every case so no doubt I am making life difficult for myself. A statistic for people who obviously think that they are important. Over the last decade, there are roughly 50% of all Group 1 winners in Australia who have no duplications in their pedigrees within five generations. Danehill/Storm Bird or Danzig/Storm Cat fit mostly outside of these results. What statistic is more important in breeding? |
Posted By: Run For Fun
Date Posted: 13 Aug 2011 at 10:31pm
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However if you want and more importantly need to breed winners, as distinct from Gp1 winners, Rosscoe's recent results (and with no due modesty mine over the last 40 years) suggest line-breeding with common ancestors within 3-6 generations can be hugely successful. Particularly when for reasons of finance you need to use modest stallions over mares, which further franks the dividends. ------------- It's hard to soar with eagles... Cheers |
Posted By: maxamill
Date Posted: 14 Aug 2011 at 1:24am
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how ever if we look at a generation back, lets say northern dancer , would you also say that is unproven ,or doomed for failure , my quick check and i mean quick leads to a quite a few of proven stallions are actually double to him , have a look at say high chap only for 1 instance , would you have put a line though him at the sales !! every line to ND most punters would back a horse on form , not breeding as with matiings , here is an interesting read The vast majority of High Chaparral’s stakes horses are inbred 3x4 to NORTHERN DANCER, and some have a third line to this great stallion in the fifth generation. He has sired the Gr.3 winner Above Average from a DANEHILL mare, and the Gr.1 Fillies’ Mile second Lady Darshaan is out of a daughter of GREEN DESERT. CAPE CROSS, a son of GREEN DESERT, is the broodmare sire of Gr.2 winner The Miniver Rose. yet he himself is awash with ND but has proved himself with danehill go figure
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Posted By: maxamill
Date Posted: 14 Aug 2011 at 1:29am
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pro quote "I am very confident that Annenkov/Swanz will result in an ordinary racing prospect." Based on what !!!! opinion, fact, your likes or dislikes type or breeding please please tell
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Posted By: maxamill
Date Posted: 14 Aug 2011 at 1:45am
| Frighteningly, 30 % of the thoroughbred stallions registered in Australia this season are Danehill line stallions.what would the reason for this be !! i reckon because he was and is a champion stallion and a champion broodmare sire , etc etc and not just in aust , the same effect happened in US with MR P and northern dancer has done the same , |
Posted By: bradjm
Date Posted: 14 Aug 2011 at 2:06am
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Can a case be made for purrealist / swanz |
Posted By: maxamill
Date Posted: 14 Aug 2011 at 2:19am
| have a look at say high chap only for 1 instance , would you have put a line though him at the sales !! every line to NDyeh this is crap i pushed the wrong button but ya get my drift |
Posted By: Progold
Date Posted: 14 Aug 2011 at 11:19am
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Who said that Northern Dancer duplications were the reason that I am unimpressed by the mating? However, now that you highlight it, it raises a very interesting question though with daughters of ND and inbreeding in Australia. High Chaparral? Not sure how to answer that apart from it being a good mating overall with only one line of Northern Dancer.
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Posted By: Progold
Date Posted: 14 Aug 2011 at 11:26am
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Frighteningly, 30 % of the thoroughbred stallions registered in Australia this season are Danehill line stallions.what would the reason for this be !! i reckon because he was and is a champion stallion and a champion broodmare sire , etc etc and not just in aust , the same effect happened in US with MR P and northern dancer has done the same , What I find particularly of concern is comments that identify all sons and grandsons of Danehill as being the same. Remember the Danehill/Storm Bird and Danzig/Storm Cat thing. If we can't differentiate that, then how can we differentiate sons and grandsons of Danehill. Effectively, 30% of the studbook, according to the computer programmes, are the same sire.
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Posted By: Progold
Date Posted: 14 Aug 2011 at 12:10pm
| For those interested in nicks of Danehill line/Storm Cat line, yesterdays winner, Foxwedge, as Pedigree Consultants point out is a result of this. He is by Fastnet Rock out of a mare by Forest Wildcat. Two important questions no doubt are how true to type are FR and FW of their ancestors, and perhaps the bigger one, is the close relationship of Storm Cat and FR's damsire, Royal Academy of more influence to the pedigree than the presence of these two stallions alone? |
Posted By: maxamill
Date Posted: 14 Aug 2011 at 12:56pm
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runfer i agree with your ealier statement , and pro, some of yours, once upon a time , it was said that this mating was to close to danehill , etc etc , , well the only thing that they had in common was ND so i would or could only assume that it was he that was to close , as i have tried to point out that some consultants believe that a danehill storm cat danzid storm cat etc etc etc is a proven mix and evn though poor tauto mare is not SC but a Son of, and annenkov the same , he unproven as a sire and she unporven as a b mare , but both somewhat proven in there racing career , not champions buy any stretch , but certainly proven beyond doubt of many others in the breeding barn , if i were at the sales and i seen a 1st foal out of a mare that one 100 k i certainly would be having a look , with or without a new unproven sire , and if it happen to win the coments, i have no doubt, that it is bla bla bla out of bla bla bla storm cat danehill cross, and pro i do like most of your comments but how do you subst That you believe that this will not produce a racing propect , or do you have one of these bloody wands i was trying to buy
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Posted By: Progold
Date Posted: 14 Aug 2011 at 1:46pm
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Remember that through this topic, I have spoken about lines and even characteristics that have worked the female family. Simply put, I do not believe that these exist sufficiently in the mating. One issue that has not been raised, but should certainly be considered is why a strategy of breeding to race should include a first season sire and a maiden mare. Some risk can be managed relatively easily.
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Posted By: tauto
Date Posted: 16 Aug 2011 at 11:23pm
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anyone using Annenkov this season great rates ------------- TAUTO/WINFREUX |
Posted By: tauto
Date Posted: 27 Aug 2011 at 9:26pm
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Grey Swallow an impressive type got fresh blood not like a lot of stallions with Danehill on both sides.Be interested in your thoughts at$4400 looks very appealing if you had a suitable mare!!! ------------- TAUTO/WINFREUX |
Posted By: maxamill
Date Posted: 27 Aug 2011 at 10:13pm
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One issue that has not been raised, but should certainly be considered is why a strategy of breeding to race should include a first season sire and a maiden mare. Some risk can be managed relatively easily. so what are you saying now , that never use the above mentioned , why !!! if breeding true to type, as it is quite clear , you dont agree with any of the readily available information that is available , nicks ,tesio g1 , bla bla bla ,information , so i could only think that you breed for type,or more to it your type !!! the only question that needs to be answered is this one , pro quote "I am very confident that Annenkov/Swanz will result in an ordinary racing prospect." Based on what !!!! opinion, fact, your likes or dislikes type or breeding this is the only one that needs to be answered, because here we may be on the crust of makings of a legend , a true horse maker , maybe we could call it proway or noway and given that 9 out of 10 horses do not make it any way, well , i think i will fall short calling u a nostra type figure but really really want this answer |
Posted By: Run For Fun
Date Posted: 27 Aug 2011 at 10:36pm
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Must say I have to agree with Progold here: even if to some extent for different reasons. It's hard to match Swanz's dam Fikra - essentially because she's from an American family whose members aren't much represented downunder. However it's far easier to match up her sire Van Nistelrooy with stallions from the Danehill sire line, which means there's plenty to choose from. And which therefore begs the question as to why Annenkov in particular was plucked out of the pack. ------------- It's hard to soar with eagles... Cheers |
Posted By: maxamill
Date Posted: 28 Aug 2011 at 12:56am
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runfer dont get me wrong , i believe Pro does put up a considerable food for thought type arguement , in most cases !! and yes, can be very logical , and ask for proof , in the stormcat danhill saga , but yet makes outlandish statements that no proof is availabe, so isnt that the hole issue that was on about in the 1st place , no proof , that nicking and all the other stuff is useless and 50 50 chance e and bla bla bla additionally because fikra family is out of the USA does it make it no good ,does unproveN make anythng no good , but i actually believe it is proven , give that one of her offsprng has won nearly $1 mill au, in HK and the 2nd gen has the 2007 usa sprint champ and that a horse won the breeders cup not once but twice , considering there are very few horses to do this in the history , and we are talking in the 2nd dame not 5 and 6th here, and that swanz won 100 k herself which in victoria prov and city is hard to do , given that fikra is a mr p mare and we certainly have information on them , especially with danehill given that i believe that stromcat x danehill or danzig storm bird are a proven thing , as was the original statement, and for what its worth nd x nd 4x4 or 5x 5 ,and actaully closer if i could get it , given that annenkov dam has produced 3 international multi grp 1 winners and 3 stakes winners and was grp 1 placed and stakes winner many times herself , considering that her dam has one on the most impressive resumes a brood mare can have in the world , and not but least annenkov himself out of the immortal danehill ,where raced in 3 continents and in top company is in itself an achievment because he proved beyound doubt his ability , but also longevity as he was running as a 7 yr old, grp 2 winner and 2nd in grp 1 against some of the best milers aust has to offer. And having a sound danhill stallion that as above mentioned to a very tough stormcat mr p line mare to me makes sense, and i doubt tauto picked it out of a pack, it would be closer to home than that but for the life of me i can not see how someone as astute as Pro, and im not taking he piss here either can make such a bullgelati statement that the offspring wil never Make a race horse thats about it , |
Posted By: tauto
Date Posted: 14 Sep 2011 at 6:36pm
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l will keep u posted on mating and outcome!!!! ------------- TAUTO/WINFREUX |
Posted By: Sequi
Date Posted: 15 Sep 2011 at 1:10pm
| Good luck! |
Posted By: tauto
Date Posted: 16 Sep 2011 at 8:53pm
sWANZ SHOULD BE UP THE DUFF BY NOW!!! ------------- TAUTO/WINFREUX |
Posted By: maxamill
Date Posted: 17 Sep 2011 at 12:36am
hey taunto i heard you suckholed another marquet , invite to the spring carnival, fck i hope it rains 
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Posted By: tauto
Date Posted: 17 Sep 2011 at 9:39am
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Great news hope u join me!!! ------------- TAUTO/WINFREUX |
Posted By: maxamill
Date Posted: 17 Sep 2011 at 7:18pm
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i would have to do to much _____
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Posted By: tauto
Date Posted: 18 Sep 2011 at 11:10am
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i'm sure l can pull a few strings and get u into marquee.l'm very keen to discuss your broodmares and yearlings u have on the ground and SAHARA!!! R u keen on Grand Final breakfast and lead up lunches if your available we could touchbase before hand.I went to a fantastic lunch last year at Flemmington in the lead up to Grand Final day.I can recommend that as well. My Keep The Faith Mare is back in work with Matty Williams and is coming along quite well latest news is she will have trial late October and Italian Machine will be back late november. U mentioned u have a Court Of Jewels filly with Bennett about to run all the best and kep me posted. How was NZ? ------------- TAUTO/WINFREUX |
Posted By: tauto
Date Posted: 18 Sep 2011 at 11:13am
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If u can come l'll intro u to some Chinese horse investors ------------- TAUTO/WINFREUX |
Posted By: maxamill
Date Posted: 18 Sep 2011 at 7:05pm
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she got a spook by 2 rouge rotties,on friday flicked the rider ,and went gallping down the road , with 2 mad dogs after her , she got away but slipped going through the gate , ok, but had to have a bit of bute , it may be the 1st for the new dangerous dogs rules , if she had of hurt herself seriously , i would of shot them , she is expected to have her final trial next week and then into the 3 yr old fillies , old mates lands here next sat lets hope ya chinese horse man not called whoflungdun ,
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Posted By: tauto
Date Posted: 21 Sep 2011 at 7:43pm
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Got great news your in on Emirates day ------------- TAUTO/WINFREUX |
Posted By: Gay3
Date Posted: 21 Sep 2011 at 8:24pm
What are 'rouge' rotties? Not being facetious but can't fit a suitable word if it's a typo 
------------- Wisdom has been chasing me but I've always outrun it! |
Posted By: maxamill
Date Posted: 22 Sep 2011 at 9:40pm
rogue rottweilers, hands faster than brain 
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Posted By: tauto
Date Posted: 14 Oct 2011 at 5:40pm
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Any news to report on Scent Above filly with Bennett and Swanz update send private.HBF upto 800 in evens last 400 in 26sec did on her ear!!!! ------------- TAUTO/WINFREUX |
Posted By: tauto
Date Posted: 21 Oct 2011 at 9:18pm
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Derby Oaks Emirates is the go try and get there early!!! ------------- TAUTO/WINFREUX |
Posted By: maxamill
Date Posted: 05 Dec 2011 at 3:44pm
| hey tauto fair betting i can sell you another horse now !!! although it might be a bit more expensive ,good win, really good win, i hear the breeder rapt as well |
Posted By: tauto
Date Posted: 05 Dec 2011 at 8:27pm
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l am very happy with Honey Bee Faithful whata win!!! ------------- TAUTO/WINFREUX |
Posted By: tauto
Date Posted: 10 Jan 2012 at 11:20pm
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Whats the latest? ------------- TAUTO/WINFREUX |
Posted By: tauto
Date Posted: 16 Jan 2012 at 10:28pm
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Hows Honey Bee Faithfuls little sister going out of Rakti? ------------- TAUTO/WINFREUX |
Posted By: tauto
Date Posted: 15 Feb 2012 at 8:20pm
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Anyone got a yearling out of Annenkov if so luv some pics or a mare in foal? ------------- TAUTO/WINFREUX |
Posted By: tauto
Date Posted: 19 Mar 2012 at 5:57pm
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Swanz is doing well so far in foal to Annenkov,has anyone else got a mare in foal to him? ------------- TAUTO/WINFREUX |
Posted By: tauto
Date Posted: 10 May 2012 at 8:46pm
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Has anyone got a foal out of Annenkov and if so love a photo? ------------- TAUTO/WINFREUX |
Posted By: tauto
Date Posted: 30 Jul 2012 at 7:35pm
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Has anyone got any updates on Annenkov,how many mares he served etc? ------------- TAUTO/WINFREUX |
Posted By: maxamill
Date Posted: 30 Jul 2012 at 9:42pm
| i believe 36 mares this year ,which isnt bad considering how the season was , dont reckon they will retire on it though, a good bunch of mares this year though , a strong victorian contingent, believe there are a few nice foals this year as well , |
Posted By: tauto
Date Posted: 22 Aug 2012 at 7:53pm
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has he got any live foals on the ground yet? ------------- TAUTO/WINFREUX |
Posted By: sky high
Date Posted: 26 Aug 2012 at 11:27pm
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Noticed in another post papyrus said annekov only got a few mares one of which won a Chilean oaks did he get many quality mares like this ? maxamill said he got 36 mares i looked on the ASB site he served 29 in 2010 and 23 mares in 2011 .Mainly Oct /Nov /Dec foals because its so cold there mares usually slower coming in season . ------------- Now thats better than a poke in the eye with a burnt stick |
Posted By: maxamill
Date Posted: 28 Aug 2012 at 12:49am
| sorry sky, i looked up old email and thats what was to be booked , i know it got swanz , ,and maybe Taunto!!! and some nice oti mares, a few from down warnambool way and a few from gippsland way, so a lot from vic obviously vic own stallion, yeh i reckon it would be cold there alright , but in saying that we didnt get early covering with our other mares last year in vic , and i reckon this year might be the same , funny season, |
Posted By: tauto
Date Posted: 29 Sep 2012 at 12:54am
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Maxi lm rapt to hear Swanz had a big healthy colt although 3 weeks early but all ok so far.Swanz a bit bruised and battered. ------------- TAUTO/WINFREUX |
Posted By: maxamill
Date Posted: 29 Sep 2012 at 2:03am
| all good ,she pretty tough , now we can see if it will make a race horse , cant we ,,although a long way to go, i believe someone put there reputation on it that it will never make one , i aso think the rorys mare is about to pop as well , looking forward to see that as well ,if like the other, be pretty happy , |
Posted By: tauto
Date Posted: 16 Oct 2012 at 7:50pm
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THE RORYS MARE HAD A COLT AS WELL AND BOTH COLTS DOING WELL. ------------- TAUTO/WINFREUX |
Posted By: sky high
Date Posted: 27 Oct 2012 at 10:22am
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Was thinking of sending a mare . How do the 2010 drop look . Are they all slow maturing staying types .Is he going to get a reasonable book this season? ------------- Now thats better than a poke in the eye with a burnt stick |
Posted By: tauto
Date Posted: 30 Oct 2012 at 9:42pm
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ive seen 2 and both strong looking colts. ------------- TAUTO/WINFREUX |
Posted By: maxamill
Date Posted: 30 Oct 2012 at 11:28pm
| they seem to be throwing powerful looking horses, as being danehill,big ones and little ones !!! but rather strong looking sound types, given he was brought out here as a potential stayer, and he near pinched the railway in wa and the kngston town , ,against some of the best milers in the business gilded venom and niconero, dead set miler , and sound , but i reckon you may be able to get a good deal as speaking to allandale they are like alll studs looking for business , depends whereyou are sky, but i found them very good to deal with , |
Posted By: tauto
Date Posted: 01 Nov 2012 at 9:21pm
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yep both colts show plenty of Danehill which is really good and good bone ld be expecting sprinter milers similar to what Host has thrown.Allandale have done avery good job at a very affordable price.And in this climate reckon a few shrewd breeders will snap up same offer!!! ------------- TAUTO/WINFREUX |
Posted By: maxamill
Date Posted: 14 Jan 2013 at 9:16am
annenkov colt 
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