Manhattan Rain
Printed From: Thoroughbred Village
Category: Horse Breeding - Public Forums
Forum Name: Stallions
Forum Description: Stallion appraisals and trends
URL: https://forum.thoroughbredvillage.com.au/forum_posts.asp?TID=23329
Printed Date: 24 Apr 2024 at 4:12pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.05 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Manhattan Rain
Posted By: internat
Subject: Manhattan Rain
Date Posted: 18 Apr 2009 at 11:29pm
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trainer and jockey both talking this fellows stud prospects up. hope not another premature retirement.
what do you guys think of his prospects? obviously an early maturing time and 2yo performed. cant deny the dam side being a half to redouttes.
i wouldnt call any of encosta sons a success. some are good value for money but none are commercial or world beaters. but this fellow would be the best performed 2yo encosta so gets every chance. not for mine but i hope we can find an encosta son before its too late.
bit like zabeel, no standout at stud and getting on in age.
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Replies:
Posted By: andynr123
Date Posted: 18 Apr 2009 at 11:32pm
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I reckon take him to the Caulfield Guineas.
If he wins, he will be worth more than any other unknown stud prospect.
I agree that none of Encosta's sons are really that sought after at stud, but the fact he is a half to Shantha's Choice surely makes him that much more valuable. ------------- http://http://www.scmp.com/author/andrew-hawkins" rel="nofollow - The Griffin |
Posted By: BAZZ
Date Posted: 18 Apr 2009 at 11:45pm
half to redoutes and out of shanthas choice i think you mean andy. 
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Posted By: tvlark
Date Posted: 19 Apr 2009 at 2:00am
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annoyed me greatly both gai and nash flogging the horse as a stud prospect on tv. You don't see them do it with fillies...'she's going to make a super broodmare'.
One of Encosta's better chances at stud of course, but after today's PR performance I almost hope he's infertile.
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Posted By: troppo75
Date Posted: 19 Apr 2009 at 2:12am
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Ah larky you are a harsh man!
I think everyone would like to see him do well at stud. Maybe he is gay though.. could always hope for that eh? ------------- Now having passed 1000 posts I feel you are all so much the wiser for my having said... stuff! |
Posted By: Flight
Date Posted: 01 Mar 2010 at 9:35pm
------------- “The probability of a certain set of circumstances coming together in a meaningful (or tragic) way is so low that it simply cannot be considered mere coincidence. ” ― V.C. King |
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Posted By: Greg
Date Posted: 01 Mar 2010 at 11:01pm
| Soft option, continuing racing was seen as diminishing his value. I'd say stopping it now proves it was flattered in the first place. Disappointing for racing. |
Posted By: lotto7
Date Posted: 01 Mar 2010 at 11:33pm
| Will always be a question mark on this fellow. Can't blame connections for putting him to stud now as his value would have diminished even further had he kept racing. Certainly a very good horse but nowhere near as good as the wraps on him and should never have the champion tag attached to him. Wasn't even the best of his generation as a 2yo and way off the mark as an autumn 3yo. Well placed at Arrowfield and if he is going to make it than this is his best bet. |
Posted By: Mayor
Date Posted: 01 Mar 2010 at 11:48pm
Group One winner, placed in three of Australia's premier events (Caulfield Guineas, Golden Slipper, Cox Plate), by champion sire from a champion broodmare, from one of the world's premier thoroughbred families and last but not least, half brother to the once-in-a-lifetime champion stallion,... has a lot going for him!  ------------- Mayor |
Posted By: troppo75
Date Posted: 02 Mar 2010 at 12:19am
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He was a fine racehorse. Not quite top of the tree though. He always had the hype around him to suggest he would win at basically every start! I can't say a bad thing about his looks, his breeding or even the time to retire! It's well done by the owners to set him off to stud now. Any further racing, and or losing would only make him look a less than perfect addition to anyone's stallion roster for 2010. One must giggle though that Blake Shinn's assessment of MR run on Saturday was 'dissapointing'. I wonder whether Gai gave him a bollocking over such comments? It would not enhance his stallion career at all having a jockey say that. So, forum. What will he stand at... by this you can generalize and suggest what you think he is worth.... and what Messara will put on him. I think he is worth 35k. Messara.. he will have to look at 50? ------------- Now having passed 1000 posts I feel you are all so much the wiser for my having said... stuff! |
Posted By: reng
Date Posted: 02 Mar 2010 at 12:44am
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So Flight, I guess you were right when we discussed him over the weekend. I said that the owner didn't need the money at stud and would keep on racing him for fun. But I guess that it's not much fun when he's not winning and/or living up to expectations!
------------- The problem with Opportunity is that it wears overalls and looks like work. |
Posted By: sadlers wells
Date Posted: 02 Mar 2010 at 1:44am
| Think he is worth 15-20k would consider at that ,Messara prob 35k |
Posted By: Run For Fun
Date Posted: 02 Mar 2010 at 2:15am
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If the other EdL tyro Northern Meteor served a full book at 33k reckon this fellow should stand for rather more. $38.5 to $44k imho. ------------- It's hard to soar with eagles... Cheers |
Posted By: bradjm
Date Posted: 02 Mar 2010 at 5:24am
| Definately not more than snitzel until he has the runs on the board |
Posted By: ianb
Date Posted: 02 Mar 2010 at 5:57am
| well he is a group winning 2yo and 2nd in a cox plate, a half to a golden slipper winner and champion stallion who started his first season at $33k so I think he will be the same, all their Danzero and Flying Spur mares will go to him, but can he work being an Encosta De Lago son, I have never seen him in the flesh so don't really know what mare type they should send him, but Miss Finland will get a number for sure. |
Posted By: The Kings Enemy
Date Posted: 02 Mar 2010 at 6:53am
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What gets me, is why stand half brothers? Is Redoutes fertility becoming that much of a worry they want the half brother as well?
Its like when Coolmore tried standing Danehill and Eagle Eyed together - didnt work!
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Posted By: reng
Date Posted: 02 Mar 2010 at 5:11pm
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But it gives people who can't afford one the option of the other.
------------- The problem with Opportunity is that it wears overalls and looks like work. |
Posted By: dimevision
Date Posted: 03 Mar 2010 at 3:20am
| exactl and if they think he can be a success why not stand him regardless of whether they have the half brother or not? |
Posted By: straight
Date Posted: 03 Mar 2010 at 4:45am
Facts and figures will always speculation
he has to stand for more  ------------- u dont have to b dead to b stiff |
Run For Fun wrote:Posted By: straight
Date Posted: 03 Mar 2010 at 4:46am
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thats beat speculation ------------- u dont have to b dead to b stiff |
Posted By: Cityboy
Date Posted: 03 Mar 2010 at 5:47am
The Danehill line mares can go to Manhattan Rain whereas they are unlikely to go to Redoute's
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Posted By: Cityboy
Date Posted: 03 Mar 2010 at 5:51am
The half brother (ie: Redoute's) didn't actually win the Golden Slipper. He was scratched shortly before the race as a raging hot favourite.
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Posted By: ianb
Date Posted: 03 Mar 2010 at 7:14am
| dóh how silly of me,ment to say blue diamond.....i am not often wrong |
Posted By: wallinga
Date Posted: 03 Mar 2010 at 7:41pm
| I think he's a twenty thousand stallion, but around the thirty mark is where he'll probably be. |
Posted By: buff
Date Posted: 04 Mar 2010 at 4:48am
| He is a magnificent specimen this fellow and i think he will make it at stud big time, he had good enough race results to suggest he will make it but more importantly he looks like a stallion , the best sort i have seen go to stud since fastnet rock. |
Posted By: Romano
Date Posted: 04 Mar 2010 at 5:07am
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Posted By: orpen
Date Posted: 04 Mar 2010 at 6:00am
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The challenge is for Encosta de Lago to demonstrate his ability to sire sires. His record to date is not flattering: Does that put a greater onus on Shantha's Choice to produce the goods? There is no question that MR is from a terrific female family, but will that suffice? The fact that MR is the 1st EDL G1 winning colt from somewhat over 500 starters is not flattering. I think the shortage of EDL 2yo winners in general, is an indicator that his sire sons, including MR and Northern Meteor, will not satisfy that 'early runner' demand of the market. My view is that MR will need speed mares to be a success. These are the EDL sons at stud.
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Posted By: orpen
Date Posted: 04 Mar 2010 at 6:05am
| Typo : meant G1 winning 2YO colt from over 500 starters... |
Posted By: orpen
Date Posted: 04 Mar 2010 at 6:15am
| Typo : meant G1 winning 2YO colt from over 500 starters... |
Posted By: Daz
Date Posted: 04 Mar 2010 at 9:35am
| is it fair to say that so far most of encosta's sons at stud came from off his earlier crops where the mares might not have been as good as he will /does get now? |
Posted By: Sullenberger
Date Posted: 04 Mar 2010 at 3:21pm
There is no comparison to Danehill and Eagle Eyed, they are half brothers which opens up the way for all the Danehill line mares to go to Manhatten Rain, got the pedigree, performance and conformation, Group One winning 2yo, you better believe it, he will attract a ripper book of mares, and any stud in the Sth Hemisphere would have taken him. Coolmore have seen plenty of Shanthas Choice, so they would have had an opportunity to get him, but with Yasseen keeping 50% or more, thats not their style ?
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Posted By: misty
Date Posted: 04 Mar 2010 at 9:32pm
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I have enquired about Manhattan Rain for one of my mares. I also indicated that I would love to look at Hussonet for her but that he would be outside my price range.
The reply was that the stud fees will not be set until after Easter sales ( as normal) but that there won't be much differental in the price between the 2.
It sounds like both horses fee will be out of my price range comfort zone. Though maybe Hussonet will have a reduction in stud fee considering his Melbourne Premier sale results.
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Posted By: lotto7
Date Posted: 04 Mar 2010 at 10:59pm
| And also considering how his progeny are faring on the track. |
Posted By: Flight
Date Posted: 04 Mar 2010 at 11:25pm
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The worse it yet to come for Hussonet's supporters. His 2008 fee was advertised at $137,500. Last year it dropped to $71,500 and they can't really go much below $50,000 this coming season or they will be dealing their assess off with their faithful clients.
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Posted By: reng
Date Posted: 05 Mar 2010 at 12:50am
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They ought to blame his age. He was always going to be a short term prospect here, given his age when he arrived. Look at other older sires, eventually their fees drop to much lower than their peak.
------------- The problem with Opportunity is that it wears overalls and looks like work. |
Posted By: GK
Date Posted: 05 Mar 2010 at 9:40am
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A few weeks ago Gay absolutely declared him to any sports journalist that would listen - He lost, I wonder how the Waterhouse Familt Trust faired that day? It's a familiar story with some of her "stars". Mind you no matter what anyone says, 2nd in a COX PLATE is unquestionable class |
Posted By: lotto7
Date Posted: 05 Mar 2010 at 6:30pm
And all off the back of one exceptionally good galloper in Weekend Hussler. No doubt they milked him for all they could get and there is no one better in the business. These fellows could get milk out of a dry cow. But again, they are in business to maximise results. |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 05 Mar 2010 at 7:12pm
Not sure they would be rushing to send Miss Finland to Manhattan Rain as she is by Redoutes and he is a 1/2 brother to Redoutes.
This is in fact one of the major limiting factors for Manhattan Rain, in that he really can't really see mares by the two best stallions in the country in Redoutes Choice and Encosta De Lago.
Still, he is fine for any other Danehill line or Zabeel, More Than Ready, Red Ransom, Tale of the Cat, Dehere etc
Standing 1/2 brothers at the same farm is no problem at all. When John Messara stood two Golden Slipper winning sons of Danehill a few people told him it wasn't a great idea and look how that has turned out.
If this horse doesn't make it than Encosta won't be a sire of sires, but I suspect he will become a champion sire in years to come, he just has too much going for him.
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Posted By: Off and racing
Date Posted: 16 Jun 2014 at 3:20pm
| What's everyones thoughts 4 seasons on? |
Posted By: Second Chance
Date Posted: 16 Jun 2014 at 3:29pm
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Just three winners from 24 starters (though one Gp 3 winner in Adelaide) in his debut season off a stud fee of $49.5k which has since lowered to $41.250k, $33k, $27.5k and now $16.5k. |
Posted By: whitt0
Date Posted: 16 Jun 2014 at 6:48pm
| His breeding as we know is outstanding....however in the sale ring he is a flop. |
Posted By: Off and racing
Date Posted: 16 Jun 2014 at 6:53pm
| What about the yearlings sold last year and this year over 200K and his average at the major sales is pretty respectable isnt it, which indicates he can throw a good type or am I seeing things the wrong way? |
Posted By: whitt0
Date Posted: 16 Jun 2014 at 6:59pm
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14 were up for sale at Magic Millions National sale earlier this month. Average price $14,042 with highest $52k. 1 Manhattan Rain (AUS) 14 12 1 1 168500.00 52500.00 14042 I liked a few but steered clear as those that have started did nothing for me. Due to his breeding, I can see him as a strong broodmare sire. I think a MR filly would be the best go. |
Posted By: Off and racing
Date Posted: 16 Jun 2014 at 7:17pm
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Yer the couple I have seen have looked like good types. Redoutes is going to be a superstar broodmar sire based on what he has done so far so it makes sense the MR will also produce decent broodmare prospects. Next years major sales will be interesting to see how MR goes... |
Posted By: whitt0
Date Posted: 16 Jun 2014 at 7:28pm
| Teeley still kept a lot of stock but I noticed that he sold a lot of the MR. I took that as a sign. Could be misguided by me....but there are better value and WELL performed options. Still will be on the lookout for a very cheap MR filly for breeding. |
Posted By: djebel
Date Posted: 16 Jun 2014 at 7:31pm
They didn't sell everything lock stock and barrel ? There were quite a few interestingly mated mares from Teeley at the MMS. ------------- reductio ad absurdum |
Posted By: Off and racing
Date Posted: 16 Jun 2014 at 7:36pm
| Be interested to know how many mares went to MR in his first season that didn't belong to Teeley or Arrowfield, I did go thru his first crops on ASB but too lazy to go back thru and do the numbers. Off my memory Teely had a lot of mares that went to MR so this may be some of the reason behind the number of MR stock compared to other sires at the reduction sale (I would not know how many mares Teeley owns). The other thing may be that Arrowfield and Teeley wanted to pump up his first book with mare numbers so they sent him quiet a few to make him look a more attractive proposition at his high first season fee, could have been embarising to go to stud with hype he did and only get a book of 50 to 70 |
Posted By: whitt0
Date Posted: 16 Jun 2014 at 7:39pm
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Not sure how many they still kept. Just watching Bred to Win and I wish we had better access to Alamosa. Nice strong types. |
Posted By: whitt0
Date Posted: 16 Jun 2014 at 7:55pm
| 88 out of 105 mares were non Teeley from his 2011 crop. However - approx half of the 88 were Arrowfield mares |
Posted By: Off and racing
Date Posted: 16 Jun 2014 at 8:00pm
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So it sounds like it was a contingency plant then if the stallion served a book of less then 50 outside mares in his first year. Bet someone regretted setting the fee too high. I could imagine they took a bit on board when it came to pricing Smart Missile. At the same time though guess atleast he served a reasonble quality of book. |
Posted By: Lordy
Date Posted: 05 Jan 2015 at 11:44am
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Where do opinions sit about him now? His 3yos look to be going OK. His stats are much better now albeit still disappointing given the quality of the mares he served. I looked at a couple at MM on the weekend and vendors didn't seems that confident despite them being nice types. |
Posted By: whitt0
Date Posted: 05 Jan 2015 at 2:13pm
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I like them but most of that sale is geared to early 2 year olds which MR does generally not throw that type. I can understand the vendors concern on maximising value. Certainly very nice 3 year olds and I can see one of his progeny winning an Oaks or Derby soon. |
Posted By: Lordy
Date Posted: 05 Jan 2015 at 2:44pm
| The Australian yearling market tends to dump them pretty quickly. Right now I'd be reluctant to make a call on MR one way or another. I'd say the negativity probably comes from trainers who've had a few that couldn't beat their own shadow. It's also based on expectations. His stats would be much better regarded if he was a $9k stallion from Vic or Qld. |
Posted By: whitt0
Date Posted: 05 Jan 2015 at 3:21pm
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Agree re:cost - however he is one of the stallions I am considering for one of my mares. I wont be selling the progeny for that one at MM. |
Posted By: Flight
Date Posted: 05 Jan 2015 at 4:00pm
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Don't forget he would have served some very good mares in his first season just to get the ball rolling. ------------- “The probability of a certain set of circumstances coming together in a meaningful (or tragic) way is so low that it simply cannot be considered mere coincidence. ” ― V.C. King |
Posted By: RickoSharkus
Date Posted: 05 Jun 2015 at 3:03pm
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Just completed a terrific Sales Season with an average of over $46k at the MM Winter Sale (which was good for that sale). This was on top of 5 selling at Easter for $316k ave and top price of $700k. On the track had 29 winners from 56 runners with 3 Stakes Winners this Season with his 3yo crop. All 3 Stakes winners beyond 1600m which might tell the story of where he sits (only the 2 x 2yo winners from 12 runners this Season). Would imagine his results stack up really well considering he's at $16.5k fee now. ------------- You only appreciate a fast one when you've owned lots of slow ones !! |
Posted By: furious
Date Posted: 29 Jan 2017 at 6:42am
| Just sired his first G1 winner in South Africa. The Keniworth J & B Met over 2000m. (or run this year as the sun met celebrated with mumm. |
Posted By: furious
Date Posted: 29 Jan 2017 at 10:37am
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Must of been one of the richest races run in South Africa as the exchange works out as $491,747 (5,000,000 Rand). Also on the day had the 2nd, 4th and 6th in the Cape Derby (G1). The second horse out of Sybarite a daughter of Procrastinate from the family of the Melbourne Cup winner Rainbird.
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Posted By: bradjm
Date Posted: 29 Jan 2017 at 4:34pm
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And the site of this year's slipper winner His stats are quite good ATM |
Posted By: bradjm
Date Posted: 29 Jan 2017 at 4:35pm
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Sire Not site Bugger |
Posted By: VPI
Date Posted: 12 Feb 2017 at 11:54pm
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Could prove to be a fair pick up for Blue Gum. ------------- @value_punter |
Posted By: Black Prince 2
Date Posted: 19 Feb 2017 at 5:33pm
| Definitely picked up the bit. Such a fickle industryl |
Posted By: lulu
Date Posted: 29 Apr 2018 at 12:12pm
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Apologies if there is already a thread going on this stallion. With 2 new stakes winners in the last 2 weeks, and with a record of 5.6% sw to runners. A golden slipper winner to boot. This stallion off very low numbers thus far, IMHO stands serious consideration this season. With a discount I will send him a decent mare and am happy to do so. He is proven and has one of the best pedigrees in the stud book. Not a midget either like so many these days.  ------------- You're either Einstein or Frankenstein in this game. |
Posted By: Gay3
Date Posted: 29 Apr 2018 at 12:21pm
 ------------- Wisdom has been chasing me but I've always outrun it! |
Posted By: lulu
Date Posted: 29 Apr 2018 at 12:55pm
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Thanks Gay! ------------- You're either Einstein or Frankenstein in this game. |
Posted By: StormSiren
Date Posted: 29 Apr 2018 at 5:26pm
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I've heard he can throw funny types - can anyone comment on this at all? He has a beautiful pedigree... ------------- Lost in the magical world of racing. Storm Siren, Sirens Star, Elpis & Wait For It. |
Posted By: Second Chance
Date Posted: 29 Apr 2018 at 5:51pm
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Was burnt toast and sacked from the Hunter just before She Will Reign came along, serving just 32 mares in 2016. A watch and see for mine.
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Posted By: linghi11
Date Posted: 12 Jun 2020 at 10:17pm
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Has anyone bred to him or seen his progeny down south? ------------- to the victor |
Posted By: Glencoe
Date Posted: 13 Jun 2020 at 5:53pm
| Had some extremely impressive types at 2020 Melb sale |