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Pedigree analysis - methodology? - 2g

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niki View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote niki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Pedigree analysis - methodology? - 2g
    Posted: 11 Sep 2016 at 2:06pm
Feedback please on the following breed to race rational
for mare Bamboo (Commands - Spindlewood):

1st dam is unraced
2nd dam is sister of nz champ 2yo Pompeii Pearl
& 3/4 sister of G1 winner Saint Cecile.
Dane Ripper is also from the same family.

Assumptions I have made about stallions which have worked well with the family and I could add to Bamboo's pedigree are: Sir Tristam, Princequillo

Therefore shortlist of stallions:
RESET - Sir Tristam
MOSSMAN - too much Princequillo?
AMERICAIN - Beau Pere, His Majesty

Is the rational okay or am I assessing pedigree influences / past performers incorrectly?


Thank you :)
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furious View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote furious Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Sep 2016 at 9:40pm
Niki it will be hard to mate her like the mating for Pompeii Pearl as there were so many things in that pedigree that fell into place.  Pompeii Court's sire Tell was inbred to Knight's Daughter dam of Round Table and his 2nd dam Love Game.  That is a 3x2 inbreeding which is very close but as this is another branch of the 2 family it could of played an important role.  The Pompeii Pearl's dam was by Harbor Prince who was out of a Hornbeam mare and Pompeii Court and Hornbeam both decend from Conjure dam of Concertina (Nassau S) and Winkipop (1000 Guineas, Nassau S, Yorkshire Oaks, Sussex S etc) and Third Trick (dam of First Spear - Nassau S, Falmouth S, Park Hill S) this being the 1-p family.  While Princequillo appears 4m x 4m and he is also a branch of the 1 family.

Other G1 stakes winners from the female line also seem to have this mix of 2 family and 1 families.  Prince Lea (Caulfield Guineas) was by Pride of Kildare (inbred to Gainborough (2n) 4m x 2f while by have the sireline of Phalaris 1-i and the dam of Prince Lea is by Gold Star who is out of a Limond (1-i) mare.  You also find Sundridge 2-g in Pride of Kildare.

Masterbelt (CJC 2000 Guineas) was by Masterclass a son of The Minstrel.  Here we find 2-d, 2m, 1-w, 2s (through Sir Gaylord grandsire of Sir Tristram) and 1-s.  While the dam is by Star of Luskin also from the 2-g family and closely related to Strategic.  His sire Luskin Star is 2-e.

The 2 family cross well to the 1 family and also like different branches of their own 2 line.  Check to see which ones have crossed in the past and you should find them.

But sires which may be of interest in pedigrees include Gainsborough/Round Table/Sundridge/Sainfoin/Luskin Star/Star of Luskin/Strategic/Biscay/Sea Bird/Stefan the Great/Foxbridge/Teddy/Ajax/Better Boy/Salieri/Doutelle/Nashwan/Deep Impact/Sir Gaylord and Secretariat are a start for the 2 familes which have already or should work with your female line.  You don't need to know that Northern Dancer is also from the 2 family he's just about in anything.

1 branch sires which have seemed to work with you female line in the past are Alycidon, Todman, Panorama, Zeditave, Siegfried, Speak John, Savabeel, Sword Dancer, My Babu (sire of Better Boy), Pompeii Court, Hornbeam, Harbor Prince, Faringdon, Star Kingdom, Blenheim, Phalaris, Limond, Night Raid, Absurd, Turn-to, Mr Busher, Boucher, Chaucer all show up in pedigrees of stakes winners from this line.  Close use of 2 and 1.

You could also look to the cross of Lonhro son to your Commands mare giving you a 4m x 4f cross to Eight Carat but as the first four generations of Lonhro is free of 2 and 1 you would then have to check out the son's damline.  Some which could be interesting are

 O'Lonhro from the 1-n female line (the same 1-n 1-g cross which gave us Strategic.  In this case the dam of O'lonhro is also by a 1-n line sire in Zoffany while the next dam Sister Pedrillis by Cardinal who is 2-s and who's sire is 2-o.  

or Sweynesse who has Halo 2d, Nashwan 2f, Secretariat 2s but no close lines of the 1 family

Denman has Court Martial 1-p from the same 1 branch as Pompeii Court and Major General 1-s and one branch of 2o through Biscay

You were interested in Mossman but his son Love Conquers All also gives you Salieri from the family of Better Boy and Gainsborough and Brauner 2f and Planet Kingdom 2r to go with Speak John 1-l and Twig Moss 1k

Another bred for yourself but a very interesting cross on paper would be Dutch Harry who is inbred to Promising (2e) (through Luskin Star and Luskin Lace) as well with Covetous 2b, Star Kingdom 1g.  There are two branches of Kaoru Star who is a son of Star Kingdom who is full of 1 blood and from the Gainsborough sireline while his dam has Ajax 2e and Heroic 1n - there is that close cross again.

Now I'm pretty sure from your list that you are looking away from Danehill blood but you should know that Fastnet Rock is from the 2f female line  and one son Hvasstan also has True Hero (2f) by The Minstrel who has appeared in stakes pedigrees for this female line before.  The next dam is by Haulpak from the 2-b female line by Dignitas 1-n.  Next dam is by Pago Pago 1-o.  So packed with lines you know have worked.

Hopefully thats something to work on with.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Nostradamus II Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Sep 2016 at 5:12am
With regard to Mossman, you will get two lines of Klairon to go with the one in Bamboo and Success Express carries Challenger II 4x4 in his dam. He is from the same 2g female line as Bamboo, ultimately leading to Amphore, full sister to Sundridge. Further lines of full siblings Sainfoin and Sierra might be worthwhile.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote niki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Sep 2016 at 6:27pm
Wow thank you Furious,  Sincerely appreciate.  Yes now a lot to consider and work on!

Dutch Harry - an interesting gem! but as Bamboo is South East Vic, it’s a little bit too far :)

With your input and looking for stallions with suggested matches I have added Warriors Reward.
WR is from the 2n family and (if I have understood the lesson from the 2014 stayer topic correctly)
WR's 3rd dam Quilloquick is reinforced by sirelines of Bamboo  through Pompeii Court, Harbour Prince & Beau Vite.
as well as other 1 and 2 combinations but I cant list more because my brain will go into melt down
LOL

(btw it's really amazing that you can see all the connections and patterns when looking at a pedigree.  and know their complex families and relations.  I read in previous posts that yourself and other TBV pedigree gurus are walking encyclopedias of TB knowledge - it's really true! Star )
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote niki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Sep 2016 at 6:30pm
Originally posted by Nostradamus II Nostradamus II wrote:

With regard to Mossman, you will get two lines of Klairon to go with the one in Bamboo and Success Express carries Challenger II 4x4 in his dam. He is from the same 2g female line as Bamboo, ultimately leading to Amphore, full sister to Sundridge. Further lines of full siblings Sainfoin and Sierra might be worthwhile.

Thank you NII, I do like Mossman.  I've added Amphore to Bamboo's pedigree notes.
Smile

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Nostradamus II Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Sep 2016 at 8:27pm
oops meant to type Amphora. 

The other thing with Mossman is that his 5th dam Alassio is a 3/4 sister to Tessa Gillian, 5th dam of Commands. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote niki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Sep 2016 at 11:02pm
Originally posted by Nostradamus II Nostradamus II wrote:

oops meant to type Amphora. 

The other thing with Mossman is that his 5th dam Alassio is a 3/4 sister to Tessa Gillian, 5th dam of Commands. 

another plus Star
although I can't find many that are the result of Mossman / Commands Embarrassed
Not sure if there is a reason or not, I could only find Local Affair (2012).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote furious Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Sep 2016 at 8:06am
I should of added Strategic is the same family as your mare so look for combinations which he has also.  But that is mostly 2 and 1 so same thing really.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote furious Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Sep 2016 at 9:04am
Actually Niki look at every stakes performers pedigree.  5 generations will do to start as you can usually access them for free.  Look at the lines that cross regularly.  They come up time and time again.  Sometimes through little known mares or stallions.  Look at Palentino and I don't mean just his small amount of inbreeding.  Its the rest of the pedigree which is cross/cross to branches of the same female families.  He is from the 19b female line and you get Bold Reason from this female line in Galileo.  You have a 16 Salvo up to Hopespringseternal also in Galileo.  Sovereign Red is from the 7d family and you have the 7a family of Danzig in Danehill. Sovereign Edition 13a to Mr Prospector 13c.  Something for the genetic background of these horses to connect to.  Lots more of course but balanced top to bottom.  

Many studies have pointed out that the female families have been corrupted so you then have to search for more of the same to make sure that what you see is right.  But with so many like to like the chances are at least some of them are correct.

Been doing stakes pedigrees since I was a teenager and am now closing on 60 so I suppose something had to stick!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote goldey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Sep 2016 at 11:30am
Two Ald sites , jet spur and favelon would be quite acceptable matings Magic Albert comes to mind also , LCA is a great match up especially if she needs length .
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gay3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Sep 2016 at 11:38am
Originally posted by goldey goldey wrote:

Two Ald sites , jet spur and favelon would be quite acceptable matings Magic Albert comes to mind also , LCA is a great match up especially if she needs length .


niki said: "Dutch Harry - an interesting gem! but as Bamboo is South East Vic, it’s a little bit too far :)"
Experience is something you gain a few minutes after you could have used it!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote goldey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Sep 2016 at 6:59pm
Our mare just travelled from Cairns to Wagga !
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote goldey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Sep 2016 at 7:00pm
Sorry Albury!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote niki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Sep 2016 at 10:54am
Originally posted by furious furious wrote:

Actually Niki look at every stakes performers pedigree.  5 generations will do to start as you can usually access them for free.  Look at the lines that cross regularly.  They come up time and time again.  Sometimes through little known mares or stallions.  Look at Palentino and I don't mean just his small amount of inbreeding.  Its the rest of the pedigree which is cross/cross to branches of the same female families.  He is from the 19b female line and you get Bold Reason from this female line in Galileo.  You have a 16 Salvo up to Hopespringseternal also in Galileo.  Sovereign Red is from the 7d family and you have the 7a family of Danzig in Danehill. Sovereign Edition 13a to Mr Prospector 13c.  Something for the genetic background of these horses to connect to.  Lots more of course but balanced top to bottom.  

Many studies have pointed out that the female families have been corrupted so you then have to search for more of the same to make sure that what you see is right.  But with so many like to like the chances are at least some of them are correct.

Been doing stakes pedigrees since I was a teenager and am now closing on 60 so I suppose something had to stick!


Thanks furious, yes I've found the stallions.com.au pedigree layout useful in looking at pedigree relationships Thumbs Up  or trying to Star

Re female families not being accurate, yes ASB does not record Warrior Reward's female family 2n, yet ASB does record Night Of Thunder's, and they are both from the same family; Quilloquick is WR's 3rd dam, and NOT's 6th dam.  So perhaps something nqr earlier on.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote furious Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Sep 2016 at 3:14pm
Then take Warrior being part of the family with a grain of salt.  The stud book is more like to know than we are.   Could be just left off for some other reason though.  You could check with them I suppose.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Nostradamus II Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Sep 2016 at 4:10pm
Originally posted by niki niki wrote:

Originally posted by Nostradamus II Nostradamus II wrote:

oops meant to type Amphora. 

The other thing with Mossman is that his 5th dam Alassio is a 3/4 sister to Tessa Gillian, 5th dam of Commands. 

another plus Star
although I can't find many that are the result of Mossman / Commands Embarrassed
Not sure if there is a reason or not, I could only find Local Affair (2012).

Mossman over a Commands mare is little tried. Three mares produced 4 foals for 1 runner/winner according to RISA
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote brogers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Nov 2016 at 1:09pm
For what it is worth, the Lowe 2-g family is actually the L4 mitochondrial haplotype. 

Almost all of the #2 family share this haplotype so genetically speaking as far as mitochondrial DNA is concerned, there isnt any difference in any member of the #2 family. There is an error in the #2 family going through the 2e branch through Charm (1888 by St Simon) where a member from this female branch we sequenced actually came up as from the A Haplotype (a rarer haplotype in the breed) but other than that the family looks really well conserved. 

Based on mtDNA mutations, the modern L haplogroup founder mare existed somewhere between 6 to 13 thousand years ago. The L haplogroup divides into 4 distinct sub-groups, L1, L2, L3 and L4 whose founder mares also pre-date the start of the General Stud Book. The L haplogroup is by far the most frequent haplogroup in the Thoroughbred, and indeed the domestic horse. 

Interestingly also sharing the L4 haplotype is the Colonial family #18 (Miss Millar), although you dont see that Lowe number much in pedigrees except for Love Conquers All. 

If you look at the four grandparents of your mare Bamboo

Danehill is the L4 haplotype
Cotehele House is the L1 haplotype
Quest for Fame is the I2 haplotye
Palm Tree is the L4 haplotype




Abel Tasman...Keen Ice...Divisidero....Verrazano...Catchy...Carrick...Ivictory...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Colonial18 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jun 2019 at 6:16pm

https://www.pedigreequery.com/imprint+wrote

Hi
New to the forum
But was curious to see the mention of the C18 Family was interested in the Discussion of the L4 DNA information, 
The Grand Dam of Imprint was Pure Lust a black type performer who won in New Zealand, was placed in Stakes races in Australia and was a representative of New Zealand in the Hong Kong Cup, 
What are peoples thoughts on this Pedigree, The resultant filly is very distinctively Northern Dancer by looks
Thanks Damian
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