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New irrelevance of Sires' lists

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Majestic View Drop Down
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    Posted: 17 Oct 2017 at 8:47pm
Over the years we have noticed that, if a sire had the winner of a certain race, it had a good chance of winning a category, eg. The sire of the Slipper is almost assured of 2yo Premier sire. Now we see Snitzel has an almost certain unbeatable lead in the General Sires list. Although he may have indeed won it anyway with numbers and class, should we be applauding the Champion Sire in October of the season? Messara sure got his wish when he and his cohorts suggested this over-prizemonied over-hyped addition to the Spring carnival.
JMPO, why not run a "Championship" Spring day, over all various distances? I don't want to get to Syd vs Melb, but Derby day in Melb is just that, races for sprinters, milers, stayers and fixed sex races.
MPO is there shouldn't be conflict between Syd and Melb, there should be collusion and program for progression from Syd to Melb in Spring.
Cut the c**p, Spring/Summer is Syd to Melb to Perth, why not get together to make one flow to the other?
The Everest was a good race, but two points. Firstly, why have a "consolation" over the same distance. We now have questions re winner of the consolation running faster than the main race. Good managers don't let this happen. What if a consolation for Melb Cup, over same distance and same day, resulted in consolation winner outruns the Cup winner. I have suggested a consolation Race for Cup, but over 2900/3000m. The second point is that truthfully this first edition was only a very, very good sprint race that could have occurred at Randwick, Flemington or Perth carnival.
Over to you all fr comment.
Could be in Racing section, but my initial point, this race have scewiffed any semblance of common sense for the General Sires' Premiership, and the brood mare lists as well.
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furious View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote furious Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Oct 2017 at 9:39am
Actually Majestic I had doubts myself about what the sires list would look like after the everest. Of all the horses to win Redzel was probably the best.  Why?

His sire was Champion Sire last season without this race and without the Champion racemare Winx adding millions to his tally.  Snitzel had started this season in a whirlwind style like nothing I've seen before for early figures and numbers of individual stakes winners.  So in reality the Champion sire is still where he should be.  He was moving so fast that even the Melbourne Cup or Cox Plate may not have moved him from the top of the pile.

Now in another season this may not happen that is true but he lead every table last season and on way he has started it seems Snitzel will proceed that way this year also.

That said Not a Single Doubt should also be applauded on his fine weekend.  Very few Stallions sire four new stakes winners over the few afternoon hours of one day.
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furious View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote furious Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Oct 2017 at 9:45am
Might point out he didn't sire the winner of the Slipper yet was champion 2yo sire last season.  He does it his way.  Lots of runners lots of winners and lots of black type winners.  Other sires serve the same amount of mares and in past seasons certainly better quality mares also so this boy for some reason has found what he likes and is doing extremely well for all involved.

He's been the sales ring champ for seasons with everyone scratching there heads over some of the prices achieved but in reality the buyers were right to go after them.  They just didn't always get the right ones but it seems no one knows everything.
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Speediskey View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Speediskey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Oct 2017 at 10:21am
Yeah agree, will ruin it a bit normally but snitzel is that far ahead without it it isn't a big deal.
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goldey View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote goldey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Oct 2017 at 11:29am
He has the ability to get stakes winners and winners from a diverse and wide pedigree range , His success in the sales ring cannot be under estimated as his progeny get to the right educational hands . His own studs faith and publicity arm also was a huge tick for him in the past . ! Can't see an heir apparent for a few years , maybe NASD or Sebring .
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Speediskey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Oct 2017 at 10:00pm
Snitzel will reign at the top of the sires charts for another 5 years yet. One of the most dominant stallions we've ever seen here and his quality crops are just coming through now, which is sometimes a question mark by it seems he handled the different mares very well.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Glencoe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Oct 2017 at 10:22pm
And yet if you purely judged him by the quality of his foals' legs you would question what you see. Just goes to show conformation is not necessarily the ultimate determinant. Racehorses must have a TICKER & it seems Snitz transmits this. If this is so his mares are gold.
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bradjm View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote bradjm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Oct 2017 at 9:03am
It will be funny when a lowly rated stallion wins stallion of the year courtesy of the Everest prize money.
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furious View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote furious Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Oct 2017 at 9:41am
No more different to a staying sire with very few city winners but one major stayer who perhaps picks up the Cox plate (or Caulfield Cup)-Melbourne Cup in the spring and then the Australian Cup and BMW/Queen Elizabeth in the autumn.  Just the spring Cups double puts in more than the winner of the Everest gets!
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furious View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote furious Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Oct 2017 at 9:41am
It's all relative.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bradjm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Oct 2017 at 9:56am
Maybe so but the spring cups double is a massive achievement

The Everest is one sprint race
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Speediskey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Oct 2017 at 7:55pm
You can do the springs cup double by being a lightweight getting into staying races and winning just because of the fact better horses are at a disadvantage, hell most the horses in there are plodders.

Winning the Everest you're at WFA against the cream of the crop, it's much more deserved.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cityboy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Oct 2017 at 6:57pm
There is/will be one Winner of The Everest every year. How often does the Cups double happen? Was Ethereal the last one to achieve the Cups double feat?

The Everest definitely tips the advantage to sprinter producing sires in terms of winning the Champion Sire title.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Poulsen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Nov 2017 at 4:45am
Exactly right. 

But the conditions of the race are somewhat designed to keep the riff raf out of the race.

Watch the scramble for change when some $5k stallion from Queensland sires the winner.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote furious Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Nov 2017 at 10:03am
Possible the doubles and even all the staying races have been spread out since the beginning of multiple stayers coming from overseas.  It's about 5 to 12 any year now.  As they don't usually go for the Cup's double or return in the spring the change can be seen. 

That said a sire with a champion middle distance horses ie Winx has a very good push up the ranks each season also especially if his runners are usually very classy to go along with that champ.  So as I said above Snitzel has come from left field without an out and out champion as of yet.  But over the last few seasons his black type horses are really up there in the figures.  He already well past double the individual stakes winners for a season this year.

Even on last weekend we had another two winners.  One a newby who didn't look too  bad.  
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