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New Girl - Elpis

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StormSiren View Drop Down
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    Posted: 11 Mar 2019 at 12:50pm
So I picked up a new girl earlier in the year, a 3yo filly. Her second dam won the French Oaks and a few other group races - a good racemare by any measure, and the family has been throwing a lot of black type.

Curious as to people thoughts... my gut at the moment is saying Starspangledbanner, Supido, and possibly Sports Edition. Have her outright and plan to race so keeping the stud fee low for now if at all possible.

ELPIS M, 2015 {5-g} DP = 3-1-11-8-1 (24) DI = 0.66   CD = -0.13 - GSV = 54.90
ZARIZ (AUS)
br. 1997 (27)
20-7-1-4
A$450,720
MUKADDAMAH (USA)
b. 1988 (45)
15-4-3-0
$271,363
STORM BIRD (CAN)
b. 1978 (71.05)
6-5-0-0
$168,891
699 f, 530 r, 377 w, 62 SW
AEI 2.26
NORTHERN DANCER (CAN)
b. 1961 [BC] (89.58)
 NEARCTIC (CAN)br. 1954 14-c
NATALMA (USA)b. 1957 *2-d
SOUTH OCEAN (CAN)*
b. 1967
NEW PROVIDENCE (CAN)b. 19569-d
SHINING SUN (CAN)b. 1962 4-j
TASH (USA)
dkb/br. 1977
6-2-1-0
$16,620
NEVER BEND (USA)
br. 1960 [BI] (83.01)
NASRULLAH (GB)b. 1940 9-c
LALUN (USA)b. 1952 *19-b
NATASHKA (USA)*
dkb/br. 1963
DEDICATE (USA)b. 1952 23-b
NATASHA (USA)b. 1952 *13-c
DIVINE DASH (AUS)
b. 1986
?-2-?-?
TOLOMEO (IRE)
b. 1980 (27)
17-2-6-2
£524,614
LYPHEOR (GB)
dkb/br. 1975 (54.45)
LYPHARD (USA)b. 1969 [C]17-b
KLAIZIA (FR)dkb/br. 1965 4-r
ALMAGEST (GB)
ch. 1975
DIKE (USA)ch. 1966 9-f
CELESTIAL SUN (GB)ch. 196513-a
ROGUE'S DELIGHT (NZ)
ch. 1978
BRIGAND (USA)
b. 1971 (27)
NOHOLME (AUS)ch. 1956 [BC]1-u
LADY SYBIL (NZ)br. 1957 22-b
MONA'S JOY (NZ)
ch. 1964
GOLD SOVEREIGN (GB)br. 1957 14-b
SINALOA (NZ)b. 1953 8-f
EVARISTA (IRE)
ch. 1993
Unraced
IN THE WINGS (GB)
b. 1986 [CS] (66.1)
11-7-1-0
£968,660
SADLERS WELLS (USA)
b. 1981 [CS] (77.56)
11-6-4-0
$663,423
2222 f, 1651 r, 1108 w, 294 SW
AEI 3.21
NORTHERN DANCER (CAN)
b. 1961 [BC] (89.58)
 NEARCTIC (CAN)br. 1954 14-c
NATALMA (USA)b. 1957 *2-d
FAIRY BRIDGE (USA)*
b. 1975
BOLD REASON (USA)b. 196819-b
SPECIAL (USA)b. 1969 *5-h
HIGH HAWK (IRE)
b. 1980
12-6-3-1
£114,619
SHIRLEY HEIGHTS (GB)
b. 1975 [CP] (75.38)
MILL REEF (USA)b. 1968 [CS]22-d
HARDIEMMA (GB)b. 1969 1-l
SUNBITTERN (GB)
gr. 1970
SEA HAWK (FR)gr. 1963 3-f
PANTOUFLE (GB)b. 1964 9-e
ESCALINE (FR)
ch. 1980
11-4-2-1
$190,598
ARCTIC TERN (USA)
ch. 1973 (26.06)
21-4-5-2
$244,097
610 f, 42 SW
AEI 1.51
SEA-BIRD (FR)
ch. 1962 [S] (73)
DAN CUPID (USA)ch. 1956 4-m
SICALADE (FR)b. 1956 2-n
BUBBLING BEAUTY (USA)
ch. 1961
HASTY ROAD (USA)b. 1951 3-n
ALMAHMOUD (USA)ch. 1947 *2-d
ESDEE (USA)
b. 1971
7-0-1-0
$2,424
HAIL TO REASON (USA)
br. 1958 [C] (82.03)
TURN-TO (IRE)b. 1951 [BI]1-w
NOTHIRDCHANCE (USA)b. 1948 4-n
STORMY LOVE (USA)
ch. 1964
PROMISED LAND (USA)gr. 1954 [C]14-b
MICHAELS ANGEL (USA)ch. 1951 5-g
Conduit Mare Profile = 5-8-4-10-6   Speed = 13   Stamina = 16   Index = 0.85   Triads = 17-22-20
Lost in the magical world of racing. Storm Siren & Speed Hero.
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acacia alba View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote acacia alba Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Mar 2019 at 1:50pm
If wishing to keep the fee low,  have you considered Stallion Tender Schemes  ?   There are usually a lot around, and some good horses on offer.  I feel  sure I have seen race clubs down your way advertise them.
Just a thought.
animals before people.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote StormSiren Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Mar 2019 at 2:31pm
Will certainly keep it in mind Acacia - but the mating will come before the fee for mine... so it would have to be a stallion I was already interested in from the pedigree/physical match up side of things...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Second Chance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Mar 2019 at 4:08pm
Well the family certainly does require re-invigoration SS.

There's probably at least three way you could go about it, not counting combinations of same, and not in any particular order: a. pedigree match, b. physical match, or c. proven stallion at reasonable cost.

In terms of (c) the stallions that continue to produce winners and stand at a reasonable fee could include
Bel Esprit (negotiable around $8,800), Domesday ($9,900), Denman (negotiable $5,500) and Al Maher (negotiable $6,600).  Of those four Domesday and Al Maher would also appear to come up well in terms of (a).

But over to others.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote furious Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Mar 2019 at 5:39pm
Just an observation.  THe Oaks winning grandam is by Arctic Tern from the family of Danehill.  Then other branches of this family have G1 winners by both Danehill and his son Exceed and Excel.  So perhaps a speed branch of the Danehill line would be appreciated.  Lots and lots of them around.

As SC stated the family needs to get moving again.  Could be too stout for Australia?  But plenty of milers there so maybe the dam just didn't get the right genes.  Her best two are by Fuji Kiseki who is the Halo line.  Halo is the same 2d family as Danehill.  and Excellent Dane by Danzero.

You have set yourself a challenge.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote StormSiren Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Mar 2019 at 6:01pm
I do like a challenge Wink

One of the reasons I was prepared to take the punt on her was that family appreciation of the Almahmoud line... and she has better conformation than some of her siblings, so that can only help. I could race her but given the previous owners hadn't done much with her I don't really want to be breaking her in at three.

The Halo/Danehill/Almahmoud appreciation was the thinking with Supido. Starspangledbanner - Danehill line again and matches up well from a physical perspective, plus Choisir & Zariz from same family, and some other nice nicks in there. Sports Edition - Almahmoud line again, by Northern Meteor so more family 5 blood which seems to appreciate replication.

Believe there is a stakes-placed relation by Kuroshio so he may be an option with the Exceed & Excel side of things.. nice to see you thought of that too Furious. SC - Al Maher wasn't one I had thought of but may be a nice option, thanks for that one!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Mumtaz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Mar 2019 at 7:24pm
If this helps, Al Maher is moving to Stockwell Thoroughbreds in Victoria.  

The Breednet article says he will be standing at $8 800 (inc GST).

Aquis is shedding quite a few proven stallions this year.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Progold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Mar 2019 at 10:14pm
You have given yourself an interesting challenge.  With this highly rated international family, there is always the big question as to whether it will succeed under local conditions, and the results to date have not been all that promising unfortunately.  It is unfortunate this filly will not race, as I think it is a fairly solid mating that is reminiscent of the better overseas runners.  Another interesting point in the family is that the grandam won the French Oaks in 1983, so it is quite a while ago.  Both the dam and granddam were not young mares when they produced this line, so we can always postulate on the currency of some influences.  It also makes us wonder as to which of these older influences are ideal to bring to the fore in the modern breed.  I must admit that I also wonder if it may not be better to introduce a young stallion into the family at this point, rather than an older proven one which would be the temptation with an unproven mare. This also leads us back to a question of breeding to type, or introducing new characteristics.  The family has been bred along more traditional stamina lines, so do we want to reinforce these or to bring in some strong local speed lines for example.  This is where it is always helpful to know what the filly is like in type.  So having bored you with some thoughts on some things to consider, here are a few options that I would be considering.  I would also imagine that NSW is the preference, as the cost of sending a mare to Victoria would negate the thoughts of a budget really.  The cheap ones I found were all in Victoria, but if you are paying an extra few thousand in travel, it is a better idea to spend that money on a service fee.

Firstly, some proven stallions, and in particular a couple of older ones.

Testa Rossa - we don't need to talk much about him.  The mating is fairly heavily inbred working a lot on the Fairy Bridge angle.  Whether the stallion has another top liner left in him is a query, but a champion stallion and racehorse, and still a looker.  If he is a stallion that appeals, there won't be many more chances.

Casino Prince - A solid stallion who is well priced for his performance.  He still has a bit to offer, and it is a solid enough mating that gives a good chance of a decent performer that might be quite versatile.  He brings in true speed through Flying Spur, as well as the French blood of Kenmare.  It would be surprising if the resultant foal did not win a race or two around the place, although at what level is a query.

A newer stallion who probably hasn't set the world on fire is Eurozone, but this represents a good mating in many ways.  We are reinforcing what look to be a lot of the strengths of the filly's pedigree and bring in ancestors like Fairy Bridge, Halo, Hail To Reason, Almahmoud and even Noholme.  Eurozone is a query, but he does introduce speed, and his type reflects this.  Before pursuing the mating, I would be looking very closely at the physical characteristics of the stallion and mare.

The unproven stallion that I like with the mare is Mikki Isle.  He is from the Halo sire line, and Deep Impact is such an important stallion that there is little doubt that he will make an impact throughout the world at some point.  Whether this is the stallion to do it here is a question, but I think it is hard to see many weaknesses in the mating.  It is a solid mating, of course dependent upon what we think of the quality of the stallion.  A good sprinter/miler so probably what we are looking for as far as type is concerned.

Happy to expand on my thoughts on any of these.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote StormSiren Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Mar 2019 at 5:03am
In terms of type... need to get some strength into her, and some bone. She's around 15.3hh. If she were a little stronger would look at taking her to the races.. but given she's a little light on don't really want to risk her...

(Not sure if this picture will link.. will try another way if not....)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote StormSiren Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Mar 2019 at 5:11am
hmmm... photo upload tool not liking secure websites by the look of it...

Guess either way, her angles are good, correct legs, well proportioned. Definitely need to get some substance into her though, she's a fine thing. Reminds me of some of those Sadler's Wells types...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote StormSiren Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Mar 2019 at 5:21am
Guess a relation worth mentioning that did reasonably well over here was Estancia Rios - she won three in Sydney and placed many more times, so a solid performer. Metro rating peaked at 78. Her dam is a 3/4 to the dam of my girl.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote goldey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Mar 2019 at 8:06am
Cable Bay would be my selection.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kavg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Mar 2019 at 4:46pm
Originally posted by StormSiren StormSiren wrote:

Guess a relation worth mentioning that did reasonably well over here was Estancia Rios - she won three in Sydney and placed many more times, so a solid performer. Metro rating peaked at 78. Her dam is a 3/4 to the dam of my girl.

Surely you'd have to go to a son of hussonet.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote StormSiren Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Mar 2019 at 5:02am
Originally posted by Progold Progold wrote:

I would also imagine that NSW is the preference, as the cost of sending a mare to Victoria would negate the thoughts of a budget really.  The cheap ones I found were all in Victoria, but if you are paying an extra few thousand in travel, it is a better idea to spend that money on a service fee.


Hi Progold,

Currently have the filly with me in Canberra so happy to look at either Vic or NSW in the first instance, there isn't too much difference being somewhat between the major studs where we are.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Progold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Mar 2019 at 8:56pm
Victoria seems to offer a couple of stallions with very moderate service fees that I think represent solid matings with the mare.

The first is King Of Prussia, a stallion that I am sure that Second Chance can tell you all about.  He is getting on, but can get a decent runner. A sound pedigree at a budget price.  On a similar vein, Anacheeva is also by Anabaa and doing a reasonable job off another low service fee.  A bit younger than KOP but his pedigree is probably a touch more international than that stallion with less speed/precociousness on face value.  Again, at the price a decent chance of breeding a winner.

The more I look at the mare, the more that the similarity in the pedigree of Escaline and Sunday Silence, and at one point, I think sending her to a stallion with a fairly prominent Sunday Silence influence may be a good idea.  With more Japanese runners coming out, there are likely to be a few more options over time.  Reinforcing strengths in a pedigree is usually a good idea.

Please don't sell Casino Prince short.  He does a great job and is realistically priced.  Not one for producing a lot of 2yo's but then again I suspect this probably isn't the family to breed early 2yo's from.  I think the mating is a great chance of providing a good racing prospect and I would be very surprised if the resultant progeny didn't win a few races.  It might not be the current mindset in breeding, but breeding winners is always a good thing.
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