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Mitochondrial DNA and Mating Outcomes

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    Posted: 04 Sep 2018 at 4:35am
An interesting conversation with Alan Porter stoked this latest blog post....

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote StormSiren Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Sep 2018 at 8:45am
I'm glad to see others with the same thought... in researching my mares family, I noticed that the superior performers, for the most part, consistently responded to the same stallion influences. Of course, the notes I've done are based on the Bruce Lowe numbers so by no there will be some inaccuracies..

I did find it interesting though, it was often crossing the same female lines, two mitochondrial lines - at times decades or more apart, where superior performers would emerge consistently.. which I find a little strange given that the mitochondrial dna is only inherited from the dam. Perhaps there is more to it ..

Incredibly interesting.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Glencoe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Sep 2018 at 8:13pm
does the 13/23 link assist in explaining the Exceed & Excel/ Elusive Quality broodmare cross
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote linghi11 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Sep 2018 at 9:46pm
Are there notable numerical crosses? Is it 1 & 9 or some such? What are the most wanted numbers?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote brogers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Sep 2018 at 1:05am
Originally posted by Glencoe Glencoe wrote:

does the 13/23 link assist in explaining the Exceed & Excel/ Elusive Quality broodmare cross

Possible....

Exceed and Excel is from the 23 branch with the error in it, emanating from Lizzie G. That branch is the I2a haplotype, where the rest of the 23 family by stud book records is M1a. Somewhere along the Lizzie G branch there was a mare that wasnt who she was supposed to be.

Elusive Quality is from the 13c Lowe family which is I2a1, a sub-group of I2a. 

What we could be looking at is that the nuclear DNA for both Exceed and Excel and Elusive Quality is similar, in that in order to be good racehorses from the same mtDNA haplotype, their nuclear DNA is structured in such a way that they compliment each other. Now, because we are taking about 'daughters' of Elusive Quality, not every daughter that is sent to Exceed and Excel will have inherited that complimentary DNA pattern. Thats the theory. 

It looks a simple argument to make, but it is not clear that it is that easy. If the nick works between Exceed and Excel and Elusive Quality because they are from the same mtDNA haplotype, why doesnt the same apply for Galileo (G2a) and Danehill (L4a)?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote StormSiren Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Sep 2018 at 6:48am
In researching my girl's family (1-B / N2a) I've found it interesting how often stallions tracing to Cinna (3-E / L2b1a ) either tail female or the tail female of their sire pop up as elite racehorses. For her line, it brought up several G1 winners (Beaupartir; dam of Rising Fast; Gatum Gatum)

Looking at other families that are also N2a (1 other than 1u; 11-g from Bebop FR 57; some 16; 18 from Flora McIvor 1834; 36) and looking at a Show A Heart gives some of his best horses: Heart Of Dreams (G1), Super Ninetyseven (Singapore - L/G1), Rightfully Yours (G3). Sunday Silence, another Cinna descendant, has Stay Gold, Neo Universe, Bubble Gum Fellow

Also noticed a lot on the 1 x 16 cross.. 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote furious Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Sep 2018 at 10:44am
And i rabbit on about Juliet 13a and Chelandry 1n/ with a bit of 5h, 22, 3 and maybe 16.  It gets even deeper but some female lines breed very true when they get the blood they want. She Will Reign goes to Japan to be served by Deep Impact who has that 3e family of Sunday Silence  and quite a few lines of 1 but no Chelandry or any other 13 family lines.  So the cross is narrowed.  The right genes may only mix if they are lucky.

I've found that the 6 and 9 families mix well with most lines.  16 seems to have a bit of that also.  With the outstanding crosses with Bletchingly and Danzig (7a) family and Bletchingly 7a and Lunchtime 7f it seems the lines of 7 like each other.

But for years now the first thing I look at is the female line to see what lines have worked with that line of mares.  Because of Mnemosyne who was a 13a line cross to Encosta and the Fairy King 5h and 3b or Forli and 1w of Klairon and the 13c line of Mr Prospector -  I looked when She Will Reign came in and was going so cheap.  Manhattan Rain had all that Encosta line crosses but missed out on his female side.  But Nijinsky also figured in Mnemosyne's pedigree on the dam side so I gave that a plus.  

This season from the 13a line of Juliet I'm following Brutal (not in comp mores the pity but you never know if the NZ buys will go to Asia/NZ or Australia)  Once again the Juliet 13a line to cross with the 13b line of O'Reilly who also has 3e and 1s and 1p (family of Court Martial sire of Wilkes 13c so we know those families cross).  There was also the line of Mill Reef which being in High Chaparral has been handy in the mix before (So You Think).  This boy is a total outcross yet has so many catches.  His dam is by a stallion with two lines of 1-l and Blushing Groom 22d to Mill Reefs 22d so there were other catches as well.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote furious Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Sep 2018 at 11:07am
It works overseas also.  Look at the overnight G1 winner Game Winner.  A son of Candy Ride (13c) from a 1s female.  This one is chock full of 13 with an inbreeding to Mr Prospector and also with Siberien Express and Seattle Slew to go with the sireline.  Then you get some 5, 3, 22 and more lines of 1s and other 1 lines.  The way the female line is built to the 5th line has a 13c sire as the sire of the dam of the damsire.  Sire's grandsire for the 2nd dam.  3rd dam is by a son of a 13c line sire etc.  Then they go to a sire from the 13c damline from a sireline decending from Mr Prospector 13c.

So look at So You THink.  He's been working with Redoute's Choice mares and yet there is none of the blood I mention in Redoute's Choice.  So why?  Well Nijinsky could be a good link as being in the mix before. With D'Argento the next dam is by Kenmare 1-m/22a etc.  Next dam is Without Fear who's sire is Baldric 13c while he is from a 5 family. 

Not much in Inference but his dam has two lines of Nijinsky while he is from a 16 female line.

Sopressa has a bit more with both Wilkes 13c and a 5 line sire in Farnworth and the 1 blood of Star Kingdom in his damsire Weasel Clause.  While the third dam is 1-w. 

La Diosa also has that 1w cross with Klairon and he has a 1n line of Clarion  While there is also a line of 5d in Star Way and Noble Bijou is a 1d&1s cross.

I had high hopes for Gold Rush as she was a double 13 female line/sireline 13b/13a.  She had Nureyev from the 5h and Zeditave from the 1n family.  She won a G2 and disappeared so maybe things just went wrong.

I also had high hopes for Higher Ground with his Encosta dam and Zabeel (Nureyev) grandam and yes he won a stakes race but sadly died.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote StormSiren Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Sep 2018 at 11:19am
The 13x1 cross is at play with Star Witness as well... he being 13-B, he has produced the following from line 1 mares: Star Turn, Well Sprung, Our Crown Mistress...

One of the key reasons I sent our girl to him. That, and given the profile of her and Global Glamours dam the nuclear dna seems to click too...


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Glencoe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Sep 2018 at 6:22pm
Thankyou Byron for that 23 family clarification & also to Furious for his comments re the 13 family.
 
Quite independently & without any real interest in either stallion I Have noticed that both Artie Schiller & Warrior's Reward get the best horses o/s from mare carrying the 13 family in their broodmare sires
 
Is this also the case for Meg D with his O/S matings & if so what implications does this carry for Astern , Vancouver , NosataD, & maybe Flying Artie here in Oz
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote furious Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Sep 2018 at 7:44pm
Flying Artie must be one of the easiest stallions to breed to.  You have the Sadler's Wells/Danehill.  His sire is 13c while his sire is 1-l and his sire is 5h.  Then the dam has Rubiton, Century, Better Boy, Todman, Rego, Noholme etc and is from the 7d family.  So that brings in the many branches of 7 which love each other including Bletchingly for Danzig, Lunchtime, Zamazaan.  While Better Boy has My Babu 1-w as his sire and Djebel with his 5j female line and 13c Sireline of Tourbillion with the mix in of 1g in Swynford.  Once again that 1/5/13 mix.  Better Boy is 2n which like each other also and Gainsborough is another 2n while his dam Better so is by Mieuxce a 7d out of a mare by Opott 13a.

So there is plenty of reasons Flying Ruby liked the extra Better Boy blood and then that blood liked Artie Schiller.  And then you can pretty much have any mare go to him just look at a few foals already on the ground.

Bleue Pepite has a filly.  As a daughter of Fastnet Rock you get that Sadler's Well's line sire over a dam by a Danehill line sire.  She has a line of Bletchingly and Mr Prospector and the 5h line of Nureyev.

California Star is close to my heart being a Juliet line mare by Starspangledbanner with his Shecky Greene (13c) Noholme (1u), Vain, Wilkes (13c), Sharpen Up 5i and Danehill/Danzig as well as 7f Lunchtime.  Then her dam brings another line of Danehill/Danzig, 1g of Star Kingdom and another 13a line through Sovereign Edition.  I'll be looking for this one at the sales!

Golden Child is a daughter of I am Invincble 1-n with three lines of 7a and another of 7f and one of 5i.  Her dam has Nureyev 5h, MR Prospector 13c, Espresso 7a, Danzig 7a, Bustino 1w, Maroof 1k, THree Legs 13a, Shannon 22b, Avaray 1t so plenty of chances for the right genes there also.

Another is Members Joy a daughter of Mr Prospector (13c) sire son Hussonet.  With seven lines of different 1,3, and 5 line sires.  The dam side of the pedigree has another line of Mr Prospector and another 13c through Roan Rocket while Rory's Jester is 1m and THree Legs 13a.  Another with many crosses.

A mare I don't know in Globe Trot a daughter of A P Indy (3-l) a son of Seattle Slew 13c by a 1k sire in Bold Reasoning.  The next dam is by Lord at War (19c but his dam is by Con Brio 1m and his sire is 1w)  Next dam is by Forty Niner 1n by Mr Prospector 13c and just to finish it off Globe Trot is from the 13c female line.

So as I said lots to work with both here and obviously overseas as this mare is American.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Glencoe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Sep 2018 at 12:34pm
Agree with you on Flying Artie. I had identified him & Cable Bay as the most likely to succeed from the 2017 crop from the balance in their pedigrees & hence their suitability for many mares
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote brogers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Sep 2018 at 5:48am
Originally posted by Glencoe Glencoe wrote:

Thankyou Byron for that 23 family clarification & also to Furious for his comments re the 13 family.
 
Quite independently & without any real interest in either stallion I Have noticed that both Artie Schiller & Warrior's Reward get the best horses o/s from mare carrying the 13 family in their broodmare sires
 
Is this also the case for Meg D with his O/S matings & if so what implications does this carry for Astern , Vancouver , NosataD, & maybe Flying Artie here in Oz


Its in BETA at the moment, but take a look at this and let me know what you think....

https://mtdna.azurewebsites.net/


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote brogers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Sep 2018 at 6:36am
Originally posted by furious furious wrote:

And i rabbit on about Juliet 13a and Chelandry 1n/ with a bit of 5h, 22, 3 and maybe 16.  It gets even deeper but some female lines breed very true when they get the blood they want. She Will Reign goes to Japan to be served by Deep Impact who has that 3e family of Sunday Silence  and quite a few lines of 1 but no Chelandry or any other 13 family lines.  So the cross is narrowed.  The right genes may only mix if they are lucky.

I've found that the 6 and 9 families mix well with most lines.  16 seems to have a bit of that also.  With the outstanding crosses with Bletchingly and Danzig (7a) family and Bletchingly 7a and Lunchtime 7f it seems the lines of 7 like each other.

But for years now the first thing I look at is the female line to see what lines have worked with that line of mares.  Because of Mnemosyne who was a 13a line cross to Encosta and the Fairy King 5h and 3b or Forli and 1w of Klairon and the 13c line of Mr Prospector -  I looked when She Will Reign came in and was going so cheap.  Manhattan Rain had all that Encosta line crosses but missed out on his female side.  But Nijinsky also figured in Mnemosyne's pedigree on the dam side so I gave that a plus.  

This season from the 13a line of Juliet I'm following Brutal (not in comp mores the pity but you never know if the NZ buys will go to Asia/NZ or Australia)  Once again the Juliet 13a line to cross with the 13b line of O'Reilly who also has 3e and 1s and 1p (family of Court Martial sire of Wilkes 13c so we know those families cross).  There was also the line of Mill Reef which being in High Chaparral has been handy in the mix before (So You Think).  This boy is a total outcross yet has so many catches.  His dam is by a stallion with two lines of 1-l and Blushing Groom 22d to Mill Reefs 22d so there were other catches as well.




Worth showing you how many of the families you mention are in fact the one family, the "I" haplotype.


Firstly, we have researched the Juliet branch fairly extensively. We are very sure it is the "I" haplotype"

Secondly the "I" haplotype has a number of Lowe families that are one and the same mare that pre-dates the stud book. The I2a founder mare was probably born 2000+ years ago but has a lot of different Lowe families in it.

Interestingly a little further removed is the I2 mare that is also the ancestress of a mare (subgroup undetermined) that the "Snitzel" family comes from. This is one of the more recent errors in the Stud Book with the mare Scotch Verdict (1960) not being out of the mare Glen Arvis as her stud book record suggests.

Further back there are a raft of "I" haplogroup Bruce Lowe families that we are working on determining the sub haplotype for but it may be of interest that both the 16 family branches of Furze Chat and Denise's Joy are most certainly from the same "I" haplotype so there are stud book errors in those families.


The technology is there for the Stud Books to clean this up and give breeders a better representation of what the families truly are, rather than anyone working on the basis that they are correct. We'd get better and more accurate mating outcomes if they were.

While they were at it, they could clean up the Y chromosome errors also and represent those correctly somehow.

The article in Current biology entitled 'Y Chromosome Uncovers the Recent Oriental Origin of Modern Stallions' by Barbara Wallner et al, stated - "We initially reconstructed the paternal genealogy of descendants of three English Thoroughbrd founders, Darley Arabian (1700), Byerley Turk (1680), and Godolphin Arabian (1724). Our samples included 110 descendants of Darley Arabian, 22 of Byerley Turk, and seven of Godolphin Arabian". "Out of the five pedigree errors observed in the descendants of Darley Arabian, one occurred in the lineage of King Fergus (1775)".

The 10 horses tested from the line of King Fergus were descendants of the stallions Persimmon and St Frusquin. Five horses were from one line of Persimmon, one horse was from another line of Persimmon and four horses were from the line of St Frusquin. All 10 horses were shown to have the same yDNA expected for descendants of Byerley's Turk, rather than that expected for descendants of Darley's Arabian by stud book records. As Persimmon and St Frusquin were sons of St Simon, it seems that somewhere along that St. Simon line going back, a stallion isnt whom he is supposed to be.

Of course, all this just proves that anyone looking deep into pedigrees and believing they have a "key" to how it all works is living in la-la-land as the names on the pages and the relationships that they are supposed to have are invariably wrong...


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote furious Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Sep 2018 at 10:41am
Hi byron.  Would help but I'm going on what's working now so can only work with the numbers given at the present time to find the immediate members.  Be it 12 or 13.  If all that group are in 12 it's a pretty amazing line anyway so far as our pedigrees are concern.  I look at the numbers see which ones have worked and look for others in their families.  You also know that the branches of the numbers are all the one line.  THe a b c are the closest being from dam and 1/2 sisters which is why I like that mix whether they are 13 or 12 doesn't matter.  Still the same branch as you have Kite there.

You must be so frustrated trying to sort everything out but as I said numbers help find the lines.  If the numbers given are wrong doesn't really matter if you find a cross working be it 1 12 or 1 13 etc.  They are tools to find the familes only.  No other way to do it really as the thoroughbred is world wide and you would go made trying to trace without them.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote furious Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Sep 2018 at 10:46am
Also just to let you know I don't go back to the stallions above.  Only to the follow through the mares I like and they may be a different family but I've seen what works with that family in pedigrees today.  Time and TIme again and work with that.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote StormSiren Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Nov 2018 at 3:19pm
Byron, do you give the halotype on your sales reports? Or could this be requested once that was done?
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