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Melbourne Cup - exempt races to renew locals?

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StormSiren View Drop Down
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    Posted: 13 Nov 2018 at 5:09pm
Having read the commentary on the Cup this year, around the lack of local runners (and disgust at being overrun by internationals), reviewing weights, and restricting imports - I wonder if we can't approach it in another way to bolster the locals.

There's 24 spots. Currently, from what I can find, there are the 5 Australian races and 2 International races that qualify. This issue I see for locals, is that the qualifiers (outside of the Derby) are going to be contested by most of the internationals as lead up races into the cup anyway.

*Lexus Stakes 
*Victoria Derby
*LKS Mackinnon Stakes
*Cox Plate
*Caulfield Cup
*Irish St. Leger 
*Tenno Sho (Spring) 

Why not extend the exempt races to include another two or three, outside of the carnival (Summer or Autumn) that allow the narrative to run throughout the year. Give trainers the chance to develop their staying horses and not have to try to rush them into the Victoria Derby if they aren't ready, which many won't be at that time. Bolster the ratings of other VRC races if they want to be parochial about it, while embracing the narrative of local cup horse.

For example... VRC St Leger. Get the Derby & Oaks horses serious about the Cup back from Sydney.. will turn it into a Group race on ratings in no time. April race, gives the staying babies another 5 months to develop, and its a horse that isn't targeted by every colt wanting a stud career so should allow for fields of proper future staying types. Make the St Legers relevant again..

25/04/2019LISTEDVICFLEMINGTONVRC ST LEGER2,800m$200,0003-Y-OOSW
Why not look at having a 2600-2800m race restricted to 3 & 4 year olds exempt from the Cup? Given the nature of the stayers and their PM after many seasons of campaigning, most of the babies don't have a chance of making the field in many of the races they need to be in to get to the cup. Run the week after the Australian Cup, Blamey Stakes day. The stayers from the Australia Cup can step up, it allows the 3yos from the Roy Higgins 2 weeks prior another distance run.. only two races that would be affected would be the Mornington Cup and the Tancred.. and honestly, it should be a different sort of horse that would be targeting it anyway.

Alright.. end rant. Seems like a no-brainer for mine... but would be interested in others thoughts...? 
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Tlazolteotl View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tlazolteotl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Nov 2018 at 5:24pm
Lexus Stakes 
*Victoria Derby
*LKS Mackinnon Stakes
*Cox Plate
*Caulfield Cup
*Irish St. Leger 
*Tenno Sho (Spring) 


You can see from that ludicrous list that the VRC is not the slightest bit interested in encouraging Australian stayers. Your idea is admirable but doomed by the self interested stupidity of the decision-makers.
"Even the things that I believe in the most, I doubt.”
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Nov 2018 at 5:42pm
The more Australia trained horses that get into the race the better.

You simply put a line through them and forget about them. 


STRIKE WHILST THE IRON IS HOT

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The richest man is not he who has the most, but he who needs the least.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shawy38 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Nov 2018 at 5:44pm
Mackinnon Stakes is now run after the cup - no longer an exemption race.

Pretty sure the Bart Cummings is an exemption race too
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shawy38 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Nov 2018 at 5:46pm
VRC derby is no longer an exemption race either.

There are only four ballot exempt races for the Cup

- Bart Cummings
- Caulfield Cup
- Cox Plate
- Lexus Stakes
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tlazolteotl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Nov 2018 at 5:52pm
Lexus Stakes 
*Victoria Derby
*LKS Mackinnon Stakes
*Cox Plate
*Caulfield Cup

Lexus- ok, great but extremely last minute and horses don't back up like they did in the good old days.

Victoria Derby- ridiculous- don't encourage the few idiots who would take up the offer

Cox Plate- stupid- has there ever been a Melbourne Cup winner get a start by winning the Cox Plate? I cannot imagine a scenario in which this would ever serve the alleged purpose. The Cox Plate is not a race to unearth Melbourne Cup winners.

Caulfield Cup- bulldust- a Caulfield Cup winner will always get a Melbourne Cup slot without an exemption.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Nov 2018 at 6:10pm

2017Fanatic (NZ) 2012Listed3200m
2016Qewy (IRE) 2010Listed3200m
2015Almoonqith (USA) 2010Listed3200m
2014Renew (IRE) 2010Listed3200m
2013Caravan Rolls On (GB) 2008Listed3200m
2012Ibicenco (GER) 2008Listed3200m


STRIKE WHILST THE IRON IS HOT

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The richest man is not he who has the most, but he who needs the least.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Enabled Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Nov 2018 at 2:57am
It's in the VRC hands really.

The ATC wanted to swap the VRC Sires for an entry into the Golden Slipper for the Metropolitan into the Melbourne Cup.

VRC told them to piss off.

Pretty stupid that the Mackinnon is now run after the race too.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Enabled Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Nov 2018 at 3:06am
Saintly did the Cox/Cup as did Makybe Diva and So You Think went close and would have won if the hockey did not let down early. 2 have done it the last 3 decades, fair.
Originally posted by Tlazolteotl Tlazolteotl wrote:


Lexus Stakes 
*Victoria Derby
*LKS Mackinnon Stakes
*Cox Plate
*Caulfield Cup

Lexus- ok, great but extremely last minute and horses don't back up like they did in the good old days.

Victoria Derby- ridiculous- don't encourage the few idiots who would take up the offer

Cox Plate- stupid- has there ever been a Melbourne Cup winner get a start by winning the Cox Plate? I cannot imagine a scenario in which this would ever serve the alleged purpose. The Cox Plate is not a race to unearth Melbourne Cup winners.

Caulfield Cup- bulldust- a Caulfield Cup winner will always get a Melbourne Cup slot without an exemption.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Enabled Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Nov 2018 at 3:20am
The VRC certainly adds to the glamour of the cup and will put in a home runner. A must. Stylish Century and nothing leica dane created massive media intrigue.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Enabled Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Nov 2018 at 3:21am
VRC derby
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tlazolteotl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Nov 2018 at 7:56am
Originally posted by Enabled Enabled wrote:

Saintly did the Cox/Cup as did Makybe Diva and So You Think went close and would have won if the hockey did not let down early. 2 have done it the last 3 decades, fair.
Originally posted by Tlazolteotl Tlazolteotl wrote:


Lexus Stakes 
*Victoria Derby
*LKS Mackinnon Stakes
*Cox Plate
*Caulfield Cup

Lexus- ok, great but extremely last minute and horses don't back up like they did in the good old days.

Victoria Derby- ridiculous- don't encourage the few idiots who would take up the offer

Cox Plate- stupid- has there ever been a Melbourne Cup winner get a start by winning the Cox Plate? I cannot imagine a scenario in which this would ever serve the alleged purpose. The Cox Plate is not a race to unearth Melbourne Cup winners.

Caulfield Cup- bulldust- a Caulfield Cup winner will always get a Melbourne Cup slot without an exemption.


Saintly and Makybe Diva were already assured of a cup run- DUR-the Cox Plate will NEVER serve its supposed purpose as a MC exempt race.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote Tontonan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Nov 2018 at 8:25am
I liked Storm Siren's St Leger idea.  

At least it does something to encourage locally trained and bred horses toward the Cup as well as renewing an old classic.  

The ANZAC day meeting has always had more potential than it has realized. In addition to a rejuvenation of the St Leger it needs a feature juvenile mile and a proper handicap Cup race to round it out.  

The VRC needs to dedicate the day to the ANZAC ethos, play on the Two-Up, get a few marching bands, free admission to anyone in uniform, make a day of it.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jamal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Nov 2018 at 9:22am
I saw this on Twitter this morning:


BREAKING: The @FlemingtonVRC have announced that the winner of next year's Andrew Ramsden in May will gain direct entry into the $7.3 million Lexus Melbourne Cup.

Prize money to be raised to $400,000 and the race will be run under WFA conditions
It's always good when a WA horse does well in the Eastern States or abroad.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jamal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Nov 2018 at 9:23am
Originally posted by Jamal Jamal wrote:

I saw this on Twitter this morning:


BREAKING: The @FlemingtonVRC have announced that the winner of next year's Andrew Ramsden in May will gain direct entry into the $7.3 million Lexus Melbourne Cup.

Prize money to be raised to $400,000 and the race will be run under WFA conditions


And the race will be run at 2800m
It's always good when a WA horse does well in the Eastern States or abroad.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jamal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Nov 2018 at 9:24am
This from Greg Carpenter on Twitter


Andrew Ramsden @FlemingtonVRC now for 3-4-5yos over 2800m - Increased prizemoney to $400k - to be run under WFA conditions on May 25 and winner exempt into the 2019 Lexus Melbourne Cup https://t.co/WCd5HgaDx1
It's always good when a WA horse does well in the Eastern States or abroad.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shrunk in the Wash Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Nov 2018 at 9:32am
I also agree with the st Leger idea

Also isn’t the weight given to these Imports part of the reason they get in before locals?

How in gods name did Sound Check or Emotionless get handed a start by giving it 55kg and even though he ran a great race what allowed Rostropovich to get in?

Why do out of form donkeys like Nakeeta & Red Cardinal get a crack?

The whole system seems wrong and slanted to encourage the imports. If they run 3rd in one of their 4 horse group races they qualify
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tlazolteotl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Nov 2018 at 9:42am
Originally posted by Jamal Jamal wrote:

I saw this on Twitter this morning:


BREAKING: The @FlemingtonVRC have announced that the winner of next year's Andrew Ramsden in May will gain direct entry into the $7.3 million Lexus Melbourne Cup.

Prize money to be raised to $400,000 and the race will be run under WFA conditions


Well that's an odd coincidence.Big smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Red Hare Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Nov 2018 at 9:50am
Can just see the first of these newly-exempt Ramsden winners being allocated 54-55kg.

Exempt from ballot, as well as any hope of winning.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Prince of Penzance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Nov 2018 at 10:03am
What a joke.
Ruined another race.
Well at least that will rule the Cup down to 23 chances now.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Prince of Penzance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Nov 2018 at 10:04am
I think that’s why a lot of Australian connections are buying into these overseas horses.
Most of them are qualified, despite being donkeys.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Nov 2018 at 11:01am
2800 or 3200 it is still a staying trip.

The race is not ruined.

When is the St Leger scheduled ?


STRIKE WHILST THE IRON IS HOT

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The richest man is not he who has the most, but he who needs the least.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote StormSiren Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Nov 2018 at 11:14am
St Leger is the 25th April, the Ramsden is the 18th May.

May be a bit of a stretch for the 3yos as you'd assume most that are looking good at the trip would be in Sydney for the Oaks/Derby - St Leger would make sense but the Ramsden is asking them to be up for a while...

Still, it's something Thumbs Up
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Red Hare Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Nov 2018 at 11:24am
Originally posted by Prince of Penzance Prince of Penzance wrote:

I think that’s why a lot of Australian connections are buying into these overseas horses.
Most of them are qualified, despite being donkeys.
Fair point that.

The first ballot clause has brought a few good locals undone. They either overextend at the start of the prep, or leave their run late & miss out.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jamal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Nov 2018 at 1:32pm
See link below for more information:


https://www.punters.com.au/news/ramsden-to-carry-cup-ballot-exemption_174570/



Basically:

1. Distance changed from 3200m to 2800m

2. Prize money boost to $400,000

3. Changed from handicap to WFA conditions

4. Race reatricted to 3,4 and 5 year-olds.

5. Winner is guarenteed a start in Melb Cup
It's always good when a WA horse does well in the Eastern States or abroad.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JudgeHolden Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Nov 2018 at 11:20am
I don’t mind the idea of ballot free races- I think a race like the Lexus works because it at least ensures a horse is going into the Cup in good form- but this smacks of tokenism. An exempt race months before in a different prep doubt will do too much to enhance the race.

As for more locals- I’d love to see it but I’m struggling to find too many in recent years who’ve been ballotted out who deserved a spot. Until we address the actual cause and produce better stayers, this is bandaid stuff.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lordy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Nov 2018 at 9:26am
Originally posted by Shrunk in the Wash Shrunk in the Wash wrote:

I also agree with the st Leger idea

Also isn’t the weight given to these Imports part of the reason they get in before locals?

How in gods name did Sound Check or Emotionless get handed a start by giving it 55kg and even though he ran a great race what allowed Rostropovich to get in?

Why do out of form donkeys like Nakeeta & Red Cardinal get a crack?

The whole system seems wrong and slanted to encourage the imports. If they run 3rd in one of their 4 horse group races they qualify

After Vintage Crop won we had Bart Cummings whinging to everybody that the European horses were getting in light. Since then the handicapper has rated Euro form much higher. It now sees Listed class winners sit much higher in ballot order.

Give them less weight and there won't be as many in the field. Flip side it also makes it easier for them to win if they are in. Catch 22.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Prince of Penzance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Nov 2018 at 9:30am
Internationals should only be qualified by winning
Placing in a field of 4 getting you qualified is an absolute joke
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote pnclick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Nov 2018 at 11:58am
Are there number restrictions for Internationals in races like the Japan Cup etc?

Why doesn't RVL place a restricted limit on International runners? Obviously, you'd need a timeframe for what constitutes an "International runner". Objective of which is to attract the elite internationals, and may make more of the lesser ones aim at the Dalgety and other Ballot exempt races to push for a spot.

Personally, don't think it would diminish the value of the race, you'd still get the A grade internationals, as it would probably be slightly easier to win, and you'd have local runners in the race, which would encourage local breeding or racing of stayers.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Nov 2018 at 12:04pm
Originally posted by Prince of Penzance Prince of Penzance wrote:

Internationals should only be qualified by winning
Placing in a field of 4 getting you qualified is an absolute joke

Which horses have done that ?


STRIKE WHILST THE IRON IS HOT

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The richest man is not he who has the most, but he who needs the least.

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