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Mating Advice Please - Baffled

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PhillipC View Drop Down
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    Posted: 10 Sep 2018 at 9:54pm
Hi all.

As a first time breeder I will claim to not know much about bloodlines.

I've picked up a mare who I love the breeding of and would welcome opinions on this potential mating.  I love that she is Danehill free and also doesn't have Mr Prospector in there either.

I think her history has shown that she hasn't done an exceptional job with Danehill line stallions, so I'm thinking of going the other way and trying for a duplication of Eight Carat.


Unnamed

 

 

 

Torch Relay (AUS)
Brown 2006

Lonhro
Brown 1998

Octagonal
Brown 1992

Zabeel
Bay 1986

Sir Tristram
Lady Giselle

1971
1982

6-e
16-c

Eight Carat
Brown 1975

Pieces of Eight
Klairessa

1963
1969

3-o
9-c

Shadea
Bay 1988

Straight Strike
Bay or brown 1977

Mr Prospector
Bend Not

1970
1972

13-c
11>

Concia
Bay 1978

First Consul
My Tricia

1970
1974

5-f
8>

Olympic Flame
Bay 1982

Buena Shore
Chestnut 1973

George Lewis
Bay or brown 1967

Envoy
Bell's Lark

1962
1956

2-f
1-p

Full View
Bay 1962

Nadir
Kerala

1955
1958

17-b
8-h

Sports Queen
Brown 1966

Gambler's Luck
Bay 1957

Court Martial
Game of Chance

1942
1947

1-p
14-c

Nisi Prius
Bay 1945

Marconigram
Statute

1925
1939

1-i
11-d

Baffled (AUS)
Brown 2005

Viscount
Brown 1998

Quest for Fame
Bay or brown 1987

Rainbow Quest
Bay 1981

Blushing Groom
I Will Follow

1974
1975

22-d
14-f

Aryenne
Bay 1977

Green Dancer
Americaine

1972
1968

16-c
4-i

Antwerp
Bay 1988

Sir Tristram
Bay 1971

Sir Ivor
Isolt

1965
1961

8-g
6-e

Diamond Lover
Brown 1982

Sticks and Stones
Eight Carat

1972
1975

2-b
9-c

Beyond Me
Brown 1992

Bakharoff
Bay 1983

The Minstrel
Chestnut 1974

Northern Dancer
Fleur

1961
1964

2-d
8-f

Qui Royalty
Bay or brown 1977

Native Royalty
Qui Blink

1967
1966

4-k
22-d

Lemon Princess
Brown 1977

Acidity
Chestnut 1969

Orgoglio
Court Fantasy

1949
1957

23-a
10-d

Phantom Princess
Brown 1971

Royalgo
Baroda Princess

1962
1959

22-a
14>

 

 

Ancestor duplications:

Sir Tristram

5m x 4f

 

Eight Carat

4m x 5f

 

 

 

 

It will most likely be a breed to race as I doubt this would be accepted in any of the sales, but I can cope with that :-)  

Thanks in advance.  Phillip
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gay3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Sep 2018 at 10:30pm
I rather like these dups.

Click image then Zoom to enlarge


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PhillipC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Sep 2018 at 10:53pm
Thanks Gay.

Do you think that it's better to duplicate stallions or mares?  I'm leaning towards mares, hence Eight Carat.  Are these mares too far back to have much influence?  I know enough to know that they are damn good mares....lol

Does 3 doses of Sir Tristram work?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote StormSiren Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Sep 2018 at 7:29am
I rather like the cross of her with Alpine Eagle... you'd be duplicating Where You Lead, whose is family 14-f so the same halotype as Baffled being family 14. Your basically getting a reverse cross of your mare's sire and Alpine Eagles dam with Sir Tristram/Northern Dancer/Val De Loir/Where You Lead. We know that the Eight Carat will appreciate Zabeel in the pedigree. Sir Tristram is sex-balanced, which will complement Alpine Eagle descending from the family, tailing to Attica his sixth dam..

ALPINE EAGLE/BAFFLED DP = 1-0-4-3-0 (8) DI = 0.60   CD = -0.13; GSV = 47.41
ALPINE EAGLE (AUS)
br. 2011 
6-4-1-1
A$266,800
HIGH CHAPARRAL (IRE)
b. 1999 
13-10-1-2
$5,331,231
SADLERS WELLS (USA)
b. 1981 [CS]
11-6-4-0
$663,423
NORTHERN DANCER (CAN)
b. 1961 [BC]
18-14-2-2
$580,806
 NEARCTIC (CAN)
br. 1954
NEARCO (ITY) br. 1935 [BC]4-r
LADY ANGELA (GB)ch. 194414-c
NATALMA (USA)*
b. 1957
NATIVE DANCER (USA) gr. 1950 [IC]5-f
ALMAHMOUD (USA)*ch. 19472-d
FAIRY BRIDGE (USA)*
b. 1975 
2-2-0-0
$4,781
BOLD REASON (USA)
b. 1968
HAIL TO REASON (USA) br. 1958 [C]4-n
LALUN (USA)*b. 195219-b
SPECIAL (USA)*
b. 1969
 FORLI (ARG)ch. 1963 [C]3-b
THONG (USA)*b. 19645-h
KASORA (IRE)
b. 1993 
Unraced
DARSHAAN (GB)
br. 1981 
8-5-0-1
$216,726
SHIRLEY HEIGHTS (GB)
b. 1975 [CP]
MILL REEF (USA)b. 1968 [CS]22-d
HARDIEMMA (GB)b. 19691-l
DELSY (FR)
blk/br. 1972
ABDOS (FR)br. 19591-e
KELTY (FR)b. 196513-c
KOZANA (GB)
dkb/br. 1982 
8-4-2-1
$149,430 in Fr
KRIS (GB)
ch. 1976
SHARPEN UP (GB)ch. 1969 [BC]5-i
DOUBLY SURE (GB)b. 19712-o
KOBLENZA (FR)
b. 1966
HUGH LUPUS (FR)b. 195219
KALIMARA (FR)b. 19601-n
ZEPHYRIA (NZ)
b. 2004 
6-0-2-2
A$9,230
ZABEEL (NZ)
b. 1986 
19-7-1-4
A$1,138,400
SIR TRISTRAM (IRE)
b. 1971 
19-2-6-3
$52,001
 SIR IVOR (USA)
b. 1965 [IC]
SIR GAYLORD (USA)br. 1959 [IC]2-s
ATTICA (USA)* ch. 19538-g
ISOLT (USA)
b. 1961
ROUND TABLE (USA) br. 1954 [S]2-f
ALL MY EYE (GB)ch. 19546-e
LADY GISELLE (FR)
b. 1982 
Unraced
NUREYEV (USA)
b. 1977 [C]
NORTHERN DANCER (CAN) b. 1961 [BC]2-d
SPECIAL (USA)* b. 19695-h
VALDERNA (FR)
b. 1972
VAL DE LOIR (FR) b. 19595-h
DERNA (FR)b. 196116-c
WARNING EXPRESS (GB)
b. 1994 
16-2-4-2
GB£1,527 & A$38,857
WARNING (GB)
br. 1985 
14-8-3-0
$937,280
KNOWN FACT (USA)
blk. 1977
IN REALITY (USA)b. 1964 [BC]21-a
TAMERETT (USA)*dkb/br. 19622-f
SLIGHTLY DANGEROUS (USA)*
b. 1979
ROBERTO (USA)b. 1969 [C]12-c
WHERE YOU LEAD (USA)* ch. 197014-f
IVORONICA (IRE)
b. 1977 
3-1-?-?
£3,252
TARGOWICE (USA)
b. 1970
ROUND TABLE (USA) br. 1954 [S]2-f
MATRIARCH (USA)*dkb/br. 196416-g
LADY MICKEY (USA)
ch. 1969
SWAPS (USA)ch. 1952A4
MCCOY (USA)b. 19638-g
BAFFLED
2005 
VISCOUNT (AUS)
br. 1998 
17-6-3-2
A$1,378,820
QUEST FOR FAME (GB)
br. 1987 
19-5-4-4
$1,790,417
RAINBOW QUEST (USA)
b. 1981 [CS]
14-6-6-1
$592,716
BLUSHING GROOM (FR)
ch. 1974 [BC]
RED GOD (USA)ch. 19548-c
RUNAWAY BRIDE (GB)b. 196222-d
I WILL FOLLOW (USA)
b. 1975
HERBAGER (FR)b. 1956 [CS]16-c
WHERE YOU LEAD (USA)* ch. 197014-f
ARYENNE (FR)
br. 1977 
11-5-3-1
1,316,150 FF
GREEN DANCER (USA)
br. 1972
NIJINSKY (CAN)b. 1967 [CS]8-f
GREEN VALLEY (FR)dkb/br. 196716-c
AMERICAINE (FR)
ch. 1968
CAMBREMONT (FR)br. 19621-t
ALORA (FR)ch. 19544-i
ANTWERP (NZ)
b. 1988 
A$240,870
SIR TRISTRAM (IRE)
b. 1971 
19-2-6-3
$52,001
 SIR IVOR (USA)
b. 1965 [IC]
SIR GAYLORD (USA)br. 1959 [IC]2-s
ATTICA (USA)* ch. 19538-g
ISOLT (USA)
b. 1961
ROUND TABLE (USA) br. 1954 [S]2-f
ALL MY EYE (GB)ch. 19546-e
DIAMOND LOVER (AUS)
br. 1982 
-8-?-?
A$102,225
STICKS AND STONES (AUS)
b. 1972
FARINGDON (AUS)br. 19611-u
WINGED BEAUTY (AUS)blk/br. 19622-b
EIGHT CARAT (GB)*
blk. 1975
PIECES OF EIGHT (IRE)br. 19633-o
KLAIRESSA (GB)dkb/br. 19699-c
BEYOND ME (NZ)
br. 1992 
14-1-1-3
A$14,885
BAKHAROFF (USA)
b. 1983 
12-4-3-4
$275,166
THE MINSTREL (CAN)
ch. 1974 
9-7-1-1
$570,605
NORTHERN DANCER (CAN)
b. 1961 [BC]
 NEARCTIC (CAN)br. 195414-c
NATALMA (USA)*b. 19572-d
FLEUR (CAN)
b. 1964
VICTORIA PARK (CAN)b. 195710-c
FLAMING PAGE (CAN)* b. 19598-f
QUI ROYALTY (USA)
dkb/br. 1977 
28-5-5-4
$94,558
NATIVE ROYALTY (USA)
b. 1967
RAISE A NATIVE (USA) ch. 1961 8-f
QUEEN NASRA (USA)*b. 19524-k
QUI BLINK (USA)
dkb/br. 1966
FRANCIS S. (USA)ch. 19571-x
WINKING STAR (USA)br. 195922-d
LEMON PRINCESS (AUS)
br. 1977 
ACIDITY (AUS)
ch. 1969 
ORGOGLIO (GB)
b. 1949
NASRULLAH (GB) b. 1940 9-c
ORIENNE (IRE)ch. 194323-a
COURT FANTASY (GB)
ch. 1957
COURT MARTIAL (GB)ch. 1942 1-p
PHAETUSA (GB)ch. 193710-d
PHANTOM PRINCESS (AUS)
br. 1971 
Placed
ROYALGO (FR)
ch. 1962
AUREOLE (GB)ch. 1950 [C]2-f
LAURA (GB)b. 194922-a
BARODA PRINCESS (AUS)
br. 1959
STAR OF BARODA (GB)b. 19443-e
PRINCESS HELA (AUS)b. 195214
Conduit Mare Profile = 5-4-4-7-8   Speed = 9   Stamina = 15   Index = 0.67   Triads = 13-15-19
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote furious Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Sep 2018 at 10:48am
I'm out today Phillip but will certainly look when I get home.  I like a female cross also and you can't get better than Eight Carat.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Gay3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Sep 2018 at 11:34am
I love it too Storm Siren Thumbs Up


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Gay3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Sep 2018 at 11:40am
Originally posted by PhillipC PhillipC wrote:

Thanks Gay.

Do you think that it's better to duplicate stallions or mares?  I'm leaning towards mares, hence Eight Carat.  Are these mares too far back to have much influence?  I know enough to know that they are damn good mares....lol

Does 3 doses of Sir Tristram work?


My preference is for top mares 1st but never discount champion stallions such as Sir T who is doing the job when duplicated+.
Incidences of mares & their families can never be 'too far back' in my book, obviously within reason Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote Progold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Sep 2018 at 4:40pm
Breeding can be a funny old game, but there is always so much information there if you are only prepared to search for it.  My first advice is to try and understand the mare and her family.

Baffled was unraced, by Viscount, a very good racehorse but ordinary sire who was by Quest For Fame, a very good stallion and pretty decent sire, but one noted for producing not the best legs in the world.  Baffled has been given plenty of opportunity as a broodmare, being covered 8 times by a range of stallions including some of the topliners in Chosir, Mossman and Snitzel.  She has produced only one winner, Deflection by Choisir who was a $75k yearling, and won two races in Balaklava for Tony McEvoy and David Balfour after starting his career in NSW with Graham Begg.  He ended up in Darwin, but had only 13 starts so probably not the soundest horse ever.  The Snippets is the only other one to ever make the track, and had only one start in 2105 so again soundness seems to be an issue in the family.  The issue is probably not something I would be blaming on Danehill being present in her suitors to date, so we really need to delve further into the family to see where we are probably best heading.  It might take me a while, but let me do a bit of research, and I will get back with some more later on.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote furious Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Sep 2018 at 7:34pm
as with the above from Progold the line has been ok to good with stakes winners like Lemon Princess, Continuum, Horizons being the most recent.  But is there are leg issues then going to a stallion who has two winners and not much to offer isn't the way to go - even if breeding for yourself.  I understand you don't want to spend too much but you should at least go to a stallion who have more than a handful of starts and was a stakes winner and has showed he can sire city or stakes class horses.  

If you want to continue on the Eight Carat line of thought you have to then look at sons of Lonhro or Commands.  A better son of Lonhro to go for would be O'Lonhro who has shown the ability to get good city winners.  As with you thought above you still get the Eight Carat and Sir Tristram cross.

Probably the best from the line were the brothers Prince o'Fairies and St Fairy both sons of St Magnus from a Heroic mare.  St Magnus was inbred to Canterbury Pilgrim (family of Star Kingdom) and her dam Pilgrimage.

So it's not that hard to find the best later ones have that Star Kingdom blood (Canterbury Pilgrim) coming to the fore.  There is also an inbreeding to Flaming Page which has worked.

Some of the cheaper good ones with Flaming Page include AL Maher (no Star Kingdom), Inference (Nijinsky twice for that Flaming Page cross to The Minstrel) also Sir Tristram 5f x 4f cross and Star Kingdom through Canny Lad.

There are stallions out there under $10,000 who have a chance of giving you a winner.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Gay3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Sep 2018 at 8:02pm
I love it when the 'pros' have time & inclination to post, it's so insightful to read the whys & wherefores. Thanks guys Thumbs Up
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PhillipC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Sep 2018 at 8:12pm
Thanks everyone for your insightful input.  Lots to think about and research.

Breeding anything is a lottery, you just never really know what you are going to get.  I figure by asking people who are much more knowledgeable and have studied bloodlines for far longer than myself, I may stand a chance of breeding something that'll like to run and win :-)

The mare and I are in Victoria and I'd preferably like the sire to also be so I can do a walk on with her.

Cheers

Phillip
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote Progold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Sep 2018 at 8:23pm
An interesting family, and one that has been sought after in the sales ring, so that is a positive.  The family came to Australia via a mare called Princess Olwyn by Tressady in the 1920's.  She made an impression by producing Heroic's Double - when she was a 13yo by the way, so she had a long breeding career - who won the 1940 Stradbroke.  A sister to Heroic's Double called Fairy Princess produced St Fairy by St Magnus who won a host of stakes races including the 1945 Caulfield Cup.  This was the line of Baffled through a daughter of Fairy Princess called Airy Princess by Windbag, who like Heroic was a champion racehorse and stallion.  Whenever I see these sorts of influences in a pedigree, it always sparks a bit of the historian in me.  Next time I will actually have a look at a few possible matings for the mare ...... probably.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PhillipC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Sep 2018 at 10:40pm
Thanks Progold and Furious.  Where do you find all this info?  I'm busily scouring the internet to find out as much about her family as possible and haven't even got close to this info.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote goldey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Sep 2018 at 11:38pm
Hi Phillip, have had a look at your mare, and Fwiw I like a son of Exceed And Excel for her maybe Reward for Effort or left field maybe Head water,seems to work OK for Viscount mares even Instinction has produced a reasonable offspring to a Viscount mare. Good luck with what ever you choose.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote goldey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Sep 2018 at 11:50pm
Commands has worked reasonably well too maybe Holler.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Progold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Sep 2018 at 12:06am
I think that both Furious and myself may have built up a bit of a database over the years.  But there is plenty of information on the net, and lots of places to look.  The Stud Book of course is a wonderful resource, as is Trove if you want to find some historical information on certain horses.  Then of course there are sales catalogues and a lot of Inglis and MM ones are now online.

Anyway, about the mare.  If Darley didn't keep moving their stallions around, it is likely that Denman would have been a worthy contender, but it seems he is back in NSW again.  O'Lonhro can be considered, but I am not so sure about his progeny even though I haven't seen that many.  His results are hardly impressive though so.

A real left field cheaper stallion is Skilled.  By Commands so he brings in the Eight Carat idea, and interestingly a duplication of Quest For Fame.  In spite of the story that the only good QFF's were the ones with bad legs, I really loved him as a stallion, and while obviously a lot of risk involved, it is an interesting mating to say the least.

On the Commands theme, Holler is a Darley son of that stallion who is only in his second season.  Plenty to like about the mating, and could be a chance of making a sale if the stallion has a wrap on his first crop to go to the ring.  Not that big a book, so probably unlikely, and lots of risk unless you can look at plenty of his first foals.

My suggestion though is Ilovethiscity.  The mating features a duplication of Sir Tristram, and I am not all that concerned that is it through two daughters.  The overall balance of the mating appeals to me, and it brings in plenty of influences that have been successful with the family.  Probably additional lines of Sir Tristram in a mare won't hurt Ilovethiscity seeing as he hails from a family that produced horses like Dalmacia and Grosvenor by Sir Tristram.  Who would have guessed that his first stakes winner was out a Zabeel mare?  I am very surprised that the stallion did not have a fee increase this year.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote furious Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Sep 2018 at 10:23am
Hi Progold I looked at Skilled also but the close 3x 3 to Quest for Fame stopped me in the tracks due to those leg issues.

But anyway it would be a better mating by far than the stallion you were looking to.

My data base is mainly stakes winners as I have researched stakes races back to day one in Australia and my whole career has been spent compiling their pedigrees etc.  

Some things stand out.  Luck is definately in the mix but the very best of mares can fail to throw a winner with lesser matings than your little girl has been given.  So you will need alot of luck to overcome something which must be working against her. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote StormSiren Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Sep 2018 at 11:20am
Not Eight Carat, but noting that one of the better recent runners from the family is Continuum, the half-brother by Hurricane Sky, have you considered Manhattan Rain? Shantha's Choice is bred on the same Bletchingly over family 14 mare/Dancing Show cross (Indeed, Canny Lad is the same family albeit a long way back), no Danehill, no Mr Prospector... Sir Ivor and Nijinsky sex-balanced duplications... Furious/Progold/Gay, thoughts?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote StormSiren Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Sep 2018 at 11:22am
The other one that looks interesting in Vic from a nicks perspective, and cheap, was Trust in a Gust... again, not Eight Carat but duplicating some nice female families..
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote furious Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Sep 2018 at 11:41am
I think he's above the price bracket they are looking for but nothing wrong.  THe Flaming Page cross has worked and anything from the Redoute's line or family has that.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote furious Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Sep 2018 at 11:43am
For instance Skilled is $3,300 so a big difference.  Because Manhattan Rain is the better sire or course he's going to be dearer.  Deals can be done so who knows.

Hurricane Sky is also out of that Redoute's family and the Star Kingdom blood in him certain helped also.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PhillipC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Sep 2018 at 11:41pm
Originally posted by furious furious wrote:

Luck is definitely in the mix but the very best of mares can fail to throw a winner with lesser matings than your little girl has been given.  So you will need a lot of luck to overcome something which must be working against her. 

Absolutely, 

I need to get her pregnant
She needs to carry full term
She needs to produce a live foal
She needs to produce a live foal WITH straight legs
the resulting foal needs to get to racing age uninjured
..............
 
There are so many facets to getting a horse to the track  Smile  All of which I am well aware of and (hopefully) prepared for Smile

Thanks all for your insightful comments, lots of investigation still to be done and I appreciate all your knowledgeable contributions.  Keep them coming Smile

Cheers

Phillip

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PhillipC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Sep 2018 at 1:37am
OK, so more questions if I may :

Wading through possible mating's for this mare.

Using this 5 generation pedigree as an example, what are people's preferences?

Duplicate as many blue hen mares as possible and as close as practical?  Obviously I understand that sometimes it can be too close.

Does it have any or much bearing where the blue hen mare (or sire) sits within a pedigree?

Thanks in advance.

Torch Relay (AUS)
Brown 2006

Lonhro
Brown 1998

Octagonal
Brown 1992

Zabeel
Bay 1986

Sir Tristram
Lady Giselle

1971
1982

6-e
16-c

Eight Carat
Brown 1975

Pieces of Eight
Klairessa

1963
1969

3-o
9-c

Shadea
Bay 1988

Straight Strike
Bay or brown 1977

Mr Prospector
Bend Not

1970
1972

13-c
11>

Concia
Bay 1978

First Consul
My Tricia

1970
1974

5-f
8>

Olympic Flame
Bay 1982

Buena Shore
Chestnut 1973

George Lewis
Bay or brown 1967

Envoy
Bell's Lark

1962
1956

2-f
1-p

Full View
Bay 1962

Nadir
Kerala

1955
1958

17-b
8-h

Sports Queen
Brown 1966

Gambler's Luck
Bay 1957

Court Martial
Game of Chance

1942
1947

1-p
14-c

Nisi Prius
Bay 1945

Marconigram
Statute

1925
1939

1-i
11-d

Baffled (AUS)
Brown 2005

Viscount
Brown 1998

Quest for Fame
Bay or brown 1987

Rainbow Quest
Bay 1981

Blushing Groom
I Will Follow

1974
1975

22-d
14-f

Aryenne
Bay 1977

Green Dancer
Americaine

1972
1968

16-c
4-i

Antwerp
Bay 1988

Sir Tristram
Bay 1971

Sir Ivor
Isolt

1965
1961

8-g
6-e

Diamond Lover
Brown 1982

Sticks and Stones
Eight Carat

1972
1975

2-b
9-c

Beyond Me
Brown 1992

Bakharoff
Bay 1983

The Minstrel
Chestnut 1974

Northern Dancer
Fleur

1961
1964

2-d
8-f

Qui Royalty
Bay or brown 1977

Native Royalty
Qui Blink

1967
1966

4-k
22-d

Lemon Princess
Brown 1977

Acidity
Chestnut 1969

Orgoglio
Court Fantasy

1949
1957

23-a
10-d

Phantom Princess
Brown 1971

Royalgo
Baroda Princess

1962
1959

22-a
14>

 

 

Ancestor duplications:

Sir Tristram

5m x 4f

 

Eight Carat

4m x 5f

 

 

 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote JoH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Sep 2018 at 2:45am
Hi Phillip,
Yes it matters where those good mares sit in a pedigree ...  people like different patterns within a pedigree and whilst I don't deny they are important my preference is to find those good mares as close to (as in feeding into) the tail (bottom) line of the pedigree as possible.  (MtDNA)
To have that duplicated / repeated in the upper part of the pedigree is a bonus.

Again JMO but foundation mares are called 'foundation mares' for a reason and if a mare (or stallion) doesn't have a good bottom line, all the fancy bloodlines above it are IMO a bit like building a fancy castle on shifting sand ... 





suck it up ... Life isn't run at w.f.a. :)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote goldey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Sep 2018 at 11:26am
Very well put, JoH.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kavg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Sep 2018 at 12:03am
I do agree with everything you say JoH and I am no expert but can you or any of the others explain where Winx gets her 'foundation' from? It is not obvious when skimming but do any of you have theories?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carioca Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Sep 2018 at 12:28am
Have a look at Vegas Showgal's 4th dam Gay Abandom, 2 colts I remember Gay Sierra equal top weighed Sydney 2yo 1956, El Khobar , brother and freakish, won Doomb.10k
as a 3yo transition horse then WFA , then off to the USA, 2 nuggets their mate.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Progold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Sep 2018 at 12:53am
If we are talking about foundation mares, Winx traces back to the Massey mare and her daughter Old Ebony bred by the Duke of Rutland in 1714 and what Bruce Lowe was later to dub the number 5 family.  It contains runners like Secretariat, Doncaster, Djebel, Sadler's Wells, Sunstar, Native Dancer and Nureyev to name a few that had a fair influence on both racing and breeding.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Cityboy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Sep 2018 at 10:26am
Hi Philip
I also breed from a Viscount mare. A little disappointing so far with plenty of bad luck despite 2 minor winners from 2 runners so date.

I’ve also been using or considering a couple of the duplications you’ve mentioned above.

I’ve twice duplicated Sir Tristam in the same location as yours, via Zabeel, but results aren’t in yet. The duplications - A Dundeel 3yr old shows promise but hasn’t raced yet and an Ocean Park is currently cooking - so no results to report yet.

I’m also considering the Sir T / Eight carat dups via sons of Lonhro and like it. You might end up getting to that duplication before me.
The 2 runners/winners so far have been by sons of Danehill. Others might correct me but I don’t think the stats of sons of Danehill with Viscount mares are especially good. However Exceed and Excel has done OK as mentioned above (someone once mentioned to me this could be due to a Lomond connection?).

All of the suggestions above from other posters seem very good to me.

Finally, from your list of the things you need to achieve with your mare that you’ve listed above, I’d suggest that “straight legs” is by far the least important especially if you are keeping to run yourself. Therefore, personally I wouldn’t be worried about the 3x3 QFF duplication if you like the mating.
Best of luck.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Gay3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Sep 2018 at 10:03pm
This guy's for sale tomorrow night on Bloodstockauction Wink

DARK LORD (NZ)


Sire:
Zabeel
1986
Sir TristramSir IvorSir Gaylord
Attica
2-s
8-g
IsoltRound Table
All My Eye
2-f
6-e
Lady GiselleNureyevNorthern Dancer
Special
2-d
5-h
ValdernaVal de Loir
Derna
5-h
16-c
Dam:
Abbaye
1989
AhonooraLorenzaccioKlairon
Phoenissa
1-w
5-h
Helen NicholsMartial
Quaker Girl
2-e
1-m
Cotehele HouseMy SwaneePetition
Grey Rhythm
16-g
8-j
Eight CaratPieces of Eight
Klairessa
3-o
9-c
By ZABEEL (NZ) (B. 1986 - Stud NH:1999, SH:1991) Stakes-winner; won 7 racesand $1,138,400 inc. VRC Australian Guineas [G1], MVRC Alister Clark S.[G2]; sire of 166 SWs (47 G1) inc. Octagonal, Might and Power, Vengeanceof Rain, Sky Heights, Preferment, Efficient, Maldivian, Greys Inn, Mouawad, St Reims,Zonda, Dignity Dancer, Greene Street, Zavite, Lizzie l'Amour, Fiumicino, Champagne,Railings, Jezabeel, Savabeel, Bazelle, Zacheline, Reset, Lights of Heaven, etc.

1st DAM

ABBAYE, by Ahonoora (GB). 1 win at 1200 m. Half-sister to DANEWIN, COMMANDS. Dam of 12 foals, 10 raced, 8 winners-

TAIMANA (f. by Woodman (USA)). 6 wins at 1100, 1200 m. inc. Avondale JC Concorde H. [G2], VRC Schweppes 1100 , MRC How Now S. , Avondale JC Famis H. 3d MRC Tristarc S. [G3]. Dam of 4 winners-

Shelford (c. by Redoute's Choice). 3 wins at 1200 m. and $268,703 inc. Tattersalls Club (nsw) Royal Randwick Handicap, AuRC More Fm 1200. 2d AuRC Darley Plate [G3], ATC Canonbury S. . 3d ATC Todman S. [G2], Counties RC Counties Bowl H. . 4th Gosford RC Takeover Target S. .

KALBO. 7 wins 900 to 1400 m. and $83,225 inc. BRC Austcover No Metro Wins Handicap. 3d BRC Coca-Cola Amatil Benchmark 85 Handicap.

FANTASTIC FORCE. 4 wins 900 to 1400 m. inc. BRC QHA Class 3 H. 2d Tattersalls Rc (qld) Total Sports Travel 3YO H. 3d BRC Urban Loft Penthouse Class 6 H., Sita Environmental Class 4 H.

TARREGA. Won Sha Tin Saturn Handicap (1200 m.). 2d Sha Tin Being Famous H, Kwu Tung H, Lotus Bridge Handicap, Shui Long Wo Handicap.

Onlyarose (f. by One Cool Cat (USA)). 4 wins at 1000, 1200 m. 2d AuRC Newmarket H. , Laser Plumbing Te Puke 1200, Jr Webb & Son 1100. 3d WRC Lightning H. .

BEETHOVEN (c. by Zabeel (NZ)). 6 wins 1400 to 2000 m. and $1,067,687. Sha Tin The Hsbc Premier Plate, Audemars Piguet Royal Oak H., Lantau Peak H., The Sports Club Golden Jubilee Challenge Cup, H.K. University Alumni Assoc'n Challenge Cup, Shenzhen H.

BERIO (g. by Zabeel (NZ)). 5 wins at 1400, 1600 m. and $848,119 inc. Sha Tin Broadwood H., Amber Handicap. 2d Sha Tin The Hong Kong Racehorse Owners Association Trophy, New York H. 3d Sha Tin The Panasonic Cup H.

SHADOW CREEK (c. by Zabeel (NZ)). 2 wins at 1600 m. 3d VRC The Curragh H. Sire.

DIAGONAL (c. by Star Way (GB)). 2 wins at 1800 m. at 2 in South Africa.

JERVAUX (f. by Slavic (USA)). 1 win at 1300 m. 2d MVRC Village Blooms H. Dam of 5 winners inc.-

BERLIOZ (c. by Zabeel (NZ)). 8 wins 1700 to 3500 m. and $463,365 inc. VRC St Leger S. , David Rosenquist and Rosemary Shimmin H., SAJC Leslie Short Grand National Steeplechase, Morphettville Steeple M, MRC Emirates Airline Plate. 2d West Australian Derby [G1]. 3d WATC Melvista S. .

LETSGETITON. 6 wins 1400 to 2100 m. inc. WRC Irish Fling Cup. 4th Wanganui Cup .

MELBOURNE ROSE. 1 win at 1715 m. Producer.

DARK LORD (c. by Zabeel (NZ)). 1 win at 1600 m.

Ziggurat (c. by Zabeel (NZ)). Placed. 2d AJC Thirsty Merc Live 3/3 H. 3d AJC Zephyr Zing Maiden Plate.

Dust in the Wind (c. by Sir Tristram (IRE)). Unraced. Sire.


2nd DAM

COTEHELE HOUSE (GB), by My Swanee. Unraced. Half-sister to OCTAGONAL (STC Mercedes Classic - H.E. Tancred S. [G1]), MARQUISE (WRC Captain Cook S. [G1]), DIAMOND LOVER (AuRC Railway H. [G1]), MOUAWAD (VRC Australian Guineas [G1]), KAAPSTAD (VRC Sires' Produce S. [G1]). Dam of 14 foals, 11 raced, 9 winners inc.-

DANEWIN (c. by Danehill (USA)). 13 wins - 3 at 2 - 1200 to 2020 m. and $2,031,636 inc. AJC Spring Champion S. [G1], VRC L.K.S. Mackinnon S. [G1], STC Rosehill Guineas [G1], BATC Doomben Cup [G1], MRC Caulfield S. [G1], AJC Hobartville S. [G2], Royal Sovereign S. [G3], STC Frederick Clissold H. [G3], Gold Coast TC A.D. Hollindale Cup [G3]. 2d AJC Australian Derby [G1], VRC Victoria Derby [G1], AJC Epsom H. [G1], George Main S. [G1], Queen Elizabeth S. [G1], STC Gloaming S. [G2]. 3d STC Canterbury Guineas [G1]. Sire.

COMMANDS (c. by Danehill (USA)). 4 wins - 3 at 2 - at 1100, 1417 m. and $417,231. STC Missile S. [G3], VRC Concept Sports S. , STC Golden Slipper Festival H., Star City Roulette H. 2d AJC Galaxy S. [G1]. 3d MRC Caulfield Guineas [G1], AJC Expressway S. [G2], Tattersalls Club (nsw) Roman Consul S. [G3], MRC J.D. Macdonald S. . Sire.

JETSO. 18 wins 1400 to 1800 m. and $594,296 inc. AJC Total Sports Flying Welter H., Museum Of Contemporary Art P., McPhee Transport H., Richard Jones H. 4th Tattersalls Club (nsw) Tattersall's Quality Plate .

THEME SONG. 2 wins at 1200, 1600 m. AJC Toi Port H., STC Oatley H. 3d STC Shading H. Dam of 5 winners inc.-

EMERALD DREAM (f. by Danehill (USA)). 7 wins 1200 to 2000 m. and $178,225 inc. Waikato RC International S. [G1], Bay of Plenty RC Thames Valley S. [G3], AuRC Great Northern Challenge S. , Ellerslie Function Centre H., Lindauer Progressive H. 2d AuRC New Zealand S. [G1], Waikato RC Gasmate S. [G3], Hawke's Bay Guineas [G3]. Dam of 4 winners inc.-

ZABENE (c. by Zabeel (NZ)). 9 wins 1800 to 2500 m. and $169,478 inc. Otago RC Dunedin Cup , CJC Metropolitan H. , Brian Arnold's 60Th Birthday Rating 70, Christchurch Casino New Zealand Cup Trial, Christchurch Casino Dunedin Gold Cup Trial. 2d CJC New Zealand Cup [G3], Metropolitan H. [G3]. 3d CJC New Zealand Cup [G3], Otago RC Dunedin Gold Cup .

KNIGHT'S COMMAND (c. by Pins). 8 wins 1200 to 2000 m. and $385,228 inc. Singapore Admiralty Classic S. [Sin-3], Woodlands Classic Stakes [Sin-3], AuRC Newstalk ZB 1200. 2d Singapore Fortune Bowl [Sin-3]. 3d Singapore Jumbo Jet Trophy [Sin-3], New Year Cup [Sin-3].

ZED. 1 win at 1600 m. Sire.

Flawless. Started 8 times. Dam of 3 winners inc.-

SANDTOP (g. by Henrythenavigator (USA)). 8 wins 1500 to 2000 m. and $594,441 inc. Taipa Autumn Trophy [Mac-2], Spring Trophy [Mac-2]. 2d Taipa Macau Derby [Mac-1], Macau Guineas [Mac-1], Winter Trophy [Mac-2], 4 YO Prelude [Mac-3]. 4th Taipa Winter Trophy [Mac-2].

SPECIAL BOND (c. by Fairy King (USA)). 2 wins at 1200, 1600 m. WATC All Stars S. , Colts and Geldings Three Metro Wins H. 2d WATC Lindsay Rosenthal S. , N.J. Way S. , Venice H. Sire.

Mancini (g. by Zephyr Zip (NZ)). 5 wins 1200 to 1600 m. inc. AJC Denis Rowe H., STC Truscott's Toyota H., Gladesville Bowling Club H. 2d AJC Q.B.E. Insurance Limited H. 3d Tamworth JC Prime Television Quality H. .

BIG JESSE. 1 win at 1400 m. Sire.

Announce. Unraced. Dam of 5 winners inc.-

LISTEN HERE (f. by Elusive Quality (USA)). 3 wins 1000 to 1400 m. SAJC Cinderella S. , MRC Ladies' Day Plate, Azzurro H. 2d VRC Festival of Racing 1000. 3d VRC Flemington Birdcage 1100. Dam of 3 winners inc.-

SHOOTING TO WIN (c. by Northern Meteor). 4 wins - 2 at 2 - 1200 to 1600 m. and $996,225 inc. MRC Caulfield Guineas [G1], ATC Stan Fox S. [G2], Tab Early Quaddie Handicap. 2d Tattersalls Club (nsw) Ming Dynasty Quality H. [G3]. 3d ATC Golden Rose S. [G1], Randwick Guineas [G1]. 4th ATC Hobartville S. [G2].

DEEP FIELD (c. by Northern Meteor). 5 wins at 1100, 1200 m. and $390,300 inc. VRC Linlithgow S. [G2], City Tattersalls Club Lightning H. , ATC Tab Quaddie Handicap, Hyland Race Colours Handicap. 2d ATC Maurice McCarten S. [G3]. 3d VRC Lightning S. [G1].

Spectro Power (c. by Spectrum (IRE)). 7 wins 1200 to 1800 m. and $509,503. 2d Singapore Raffles Cup [Sin-1], Kranji Mile [Sin-2], Committee's Prize [Sin-3].

OTRAVEZ. 1 win at 1512 m. Dam of 7 winners inc.-

Red Fez (f. by Red Ransom (USA)). 3 wins at 1200, 1400 m. and $158,275 inc. VRC Maidstone Handicap, MRC D'Urban Hcp. 3d VRC A.V. Kewney S. [G2], MRC Angus Armanasco S. [G2], SAJC H.C. Nitschke S. .

Masterofceremonies. Unraced. Sire.

WYCOMBE. 1 win at 1200 m. 2d STC Blythe Spirits H. Dam of 9 winners inc.-

VILLA IGEA. 2 wins at 1015, 1200 m. inc. 1 at inc. STC Hartshill H. Dam of 8 winners inc.-

FAIR TRADE (g. by Danewin). 5 wins at 1400, 1410 m. and $678,368 inc. VRC C.S. Hayes S. [G3], Elms H., Sha Tin Chinese New Year Cup, Cotton Tree H. 4th Sha Tin Chairman's Trophy [HK-2], The Sprint Cup [HK-2], Jockey Club Mile [G2].

HEARTS AND ARROWS. 2 wins at 1300, 1600 m. Dam of 2 winners inc.-

Jonker (c. by Spirit of Boom). 2 wins at 900, 1100 m. at 2 and $169,960. 3d ATC The Run to the Rose [G2]. 4th ATC San Domenico S. [G3].

CATECOMBE. 1 win at 1000 m. 3d STC Marrickville H. Dam of 7 winners inc.-

IMPALER (g. by Dracula). 11 wins - 2 at 2 - 900 to 1600 m. and $835,450 inc. AJC Hobartville S. [G2], Challenge S. [G2], STC Canterbury Classic , Ipswich TC Eye Liner S. , AJC Special Conditions H., STC 3 YO H., Wyndham Estate Cup, Scone RC Emirates Park Scone Cup. 2d BTC Doomben 10000 [G1], Doomben S. . 3d AJC Royal Sovereign S. [G2], QTC Sir Byrne Hart S. [G2], Toowoomba TC Weetwood H. , City Tatt's Lightning S. .

Stratcombe (g. by Stratum). 7 wins 955 to 1213 m. and $308,564 inc. MVRC Essendon Mazda 55 Second Challenge Heat 14, City Jeep Grand Srt8 Handicap, MRC Visvanathan Memorial Plate, Manfred Philipps Handicap, Jb Medical Lasers 0 - 68 Handicap. 2d VRC Straight Six H. . 3d VRC Century S. .

Chalet Girl. Unraced. Dam of 7 winners inc.-

Monards (c. by Danehill (USA)). 4 wins 1400 to 1800 m. and $1,302,009. AJC 3 YO Conditions H., Sha Tin Kwong Wah H., The Police Cup, The Japan Racing Association Trophy. 3d Sha Tin Sha Tin Futurity Trophy [HK-3].

Starnui. Started once. Dam of 6 winners inc.-

STARMON (f. by Monolith). 4 wins 1600 to 2100 m. and $161,395 inc. Cranbourne Cup , MRC Orient H. 3d SAJC Centaurea Trophy , Waikato RC Fairdale Stud Fully Fledged 1400. Dam of 2 winners inc.-

GOGO GRACE (f. by New Approach (IRE)). 5 wins 1100 to 1600 m. and $249,854 inc. TRC Bow Mistress Trophy [G3], SAJC Adelaide Galvanising Handicap, Holdfast Insurance Handicap, Adelaide Hills Wine Region Handicap (heat of Star Of Christm. 4th SAJC Cinderella S. .

Bramshaw. Unraced. Sire.


Race Record: 6 Starts. 1-1-1 $7,600.
Won Bairnsdale Rc Riviera Links Resort Maiden Plate (1600 m.).2d Terang & District Rc Scott's Retravision Maiden Plate.3d Wimmera Rc Westvic Agspray Maiden Plate.


 Bay or brown horseFoaled 2001 



Edited by Gay3 - 17 Sep 2018 at 10:04pm
Experience is something you gain a few minutes after you could have used it!
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