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LEASING BROODMARES

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    Posted: 01 Dec 2010 at 7:02am
I recently won a service to a relatively unknown sire and need some information on leasing a broodmare.
Can anyone tell me how this arrangement normally works and who would have mares available?
 
Thanks
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote v and m Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Dec 2010 at 7:57am
I'm sure if you asked on here if anyone has a mare they would like to lease out to you that someone would offer, as long as its to a good home and well cared for there might even be some that would lend you their mare for free.
 
One of my mares is in foal at the moment but after this one we are not going to put her in foal next year and we are considering lending her for free (peanut contract) to someone that might want her for breeding purposes but only if the place she goes to feeds her good, and takes good care of her and her foal until the foal is weaned. But I think you can get a better mare than mine to breed with though if you ask around, she produces nice foals but her pedigree is ordinary. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote travo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Dec 2010 at 8:04am
Originally posted by v and m v and m wrote:

I'm sure if you asked on here if anyone has a mare they would like to lease out to you that someone would offer, as long as its to a good home and well cared for there might even be some that would lend you their mare for free.
 
One of my mares is in foal at the moment but after this one we are not going to put her in foal next year and we are considering lending her for free (peanut contract) to someone that might want her for breeding purposes but only if the place she goes to feeds her good, and takes good care of her and her foal until the foal is weaned. But I think you can get a better mare than mine to breed with though if you ask around, she produces nice foals but her pedigree is ordinary. 

 

Thanks V & M

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bradjm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Dec 2010 at 9:23am
who is the sire 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bottom Line Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jan 2011 at 2:43pm
When is a win not a win? Sounds dangerously like tearing up money to me.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bradjm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jan 2011 at 6:14am
Haha it does

You've just won a mountain of vet bills and a couple of years worth of food and farrier bills :)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jim Pike Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jan 2011 at 4:02pm
Breeding is a bottomless pit of bills and disappointments, on the other hand done right it can also be a licence to print money, look at the ones who make a squillion out of it and see what they do, then look at the ones who lose a fortune and analyse the difference, it is chalk and cheese, 
As they say in the classics it ain't Rocket Science 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bradjm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jan 2011 at 8:53pm
Yes it's easy top class mare to top class stallion.

It's why it's called the sport of kings
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jim Pike Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jan 2011 at 3:47am
It doesn't have to be $million Mares and $100,000 sire service fees, but it must be done with a view to getting into the Easter Sale or The Magic Millions premier sale in Australia or the Premier sale at Karaka in NZ,  you have to get your mares progeny in front of people with the money to spend to make it worthwhile, even if you are going to race it yourself it is silly to do it any other way,
If you breed from poor broodmares and cheap unknown stallions the costs to get the horse to racing stage is the same whether the horse is worth 2 bob or a $million, it is much cheaper to go to the sales and pick out a good type from the secondary sales where there are only battlers to bid against ie Arab Sheiks are not there, you can pick up a much better type than you are likely to breed and at a much cheaper price than it will cost to breed and the Bonus is you will save yourself 2 years in the process
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gay3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jan 2011 at 10:15am
Couldn't agree more JP but I do understand those who breed to race, doing so for the enjoyment & sense of achievement that sometimes follows Thumbs Up
Experience is something you gain a few minutes after you could have used it!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jim Pike Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jan 2011 at 12:18pm
Everything is not about money with that I totally agree,
It's just I have been in the business and it can make you cynical at times,
Can't think of a more pleasant way to lose money if it fails to make money, 
Just so long as you go into the venture with your eyes wide open and are prepared to fail, there can be some heartbreaks in the industry but conversely just being involved can make you feel like a winner
Good Luck and Best wishes
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mr Prospector Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jan 2011 at 1:49pm
Originally posted by Jim Pike Jim Pike wrote:

It doesn't have to be $million Mares and $100,000 sire service fees, but it must be done with a view to getting into the Easter Sale or The Magic Millions premier sale in Australia or the Premier sale at Karaka in NZ,  you have to get your mares progeny in front of people with the money to spend to make it worthwhile, even if you are going to race it yourself it is silly to do it any other way,
 
I'd have to disagree JP as I believe there is a large middle ground of quality stock that you are ignoring in that assesment . The progeny , be they from a stallions or mares wont maker a major sale but can produce a runner .
You have excluded most the middle ground stallions in that assesment .
 
 
Can you elaborate what you mean by the underlined statement . If you are breeding to race why do you want any one to look at it ?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jim Pike Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jan 2011 at 3:35pm
Mr Prospector with a name like that you should no the financial realities of Breeding, I never at any stage said the minor sales can't produce a winner, hell they produce Group One winners!!
What I said is you can go tothe minor sales and pick the eyes out of it and not have to spend much money, even for the top lot, from the breeders point of View if you are extremely lucky and get a fantastic type to take to the sales you still won't get a lot of money for it because there is no money at the sale, if you want to breed to succeed you have to try to get your yearling in front of rich buyers, pure mathematics, Gai/Bart/Lee/David etc do not go to all the sales and neither do their clients money,
I am not ignoring the large middle ground, I am just stating a fact, one of the only facts in breeding, if you want to make good money and for the risk involved you have to get bloody good interest on your money, you have to have deep pockets bidding against each other for your champion, they are at the Sales I stated earlier, they are no where else, that's a fact
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jim Pike Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jan 2011 at 3:49pm
what I meant by that is that it will cost you (including the service fee(even allowing for a low $5,000 service) around $15/20,000 to get it to the yearling stage whether you sell it or not is irrelevant
from a mare with a weak pedigree by a similar sire the chances are it won't be a Good Type unless it is an exception to the type that the family throws to, 
on top of that it will take you 2 years of vet bills, weaning, farriers, floats, not to mention hoping it doesn't run into a fence and injure itself in that 2 years, 
if you take that same $20,000 you can go to the sales away from the top sales and pick out a good type and buy it probably for even less, you know exactly what you are getting, you have avoided all the worries and possible heartache of the pregnancy, then the first 12/18 months of the foals life when they are accident prone
As I said that is the Harsh realities, there is the other side that takes in the passion and enjoyment that you can  get out of it if you do get lucky and breed a good horse, the feeling of accomplishment is immeasurable and can't be under estimated it is all in the eye of the beholder, I have done it both ways and I can tell you you get a lot more fun out of making money than I ever did out of losing money but that's just me

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mr Prospector Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jan 2011 at 5:11pm
Thanks JP , I understand your point better now and concur to some degree . My approach as a small breeder is to breed to upgrade and if you do that as well as you can then hopefully the rest ($$$) will follow . Even if you decide to sell or race .
To get into a top sale you need to have used a stallion that has a service fee of min $30-40K range or greater I would have thought ,  and I can see no value in any of the top end stallions .
 
 I would need to be convinced  it is a fantastic mating to shell out those sort of dollars .  If you are going to sell the progeny out such a mating at the top sales , I think as a small breeder you on a hiding to nothing for lots of the reasons you have already outlined , plus the competition is going to get harder in next few years .
I think your margins at the sales (ie sales price / service fee ) are better in the mid range area of the stallion market (15-30K) and more importantly your risks are lower as a small breeder  . If you get the mating wrong then the losses are not so horrendous . At the top end the losses are horrendous if the resultant yearling is unsaleable .
 
Its a tough game and there is no absolute formulae at the end of the day . If it works for you then good luck to you .
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mr Prospector Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jan 2011 at 6:02pm
Just to further illustrate my point re good horses coming from any Stallion as well as the top stallions I just had a look at the latest Bluebloods (dec 2010) issue and had a look at the stakes winners listed ( Group only) .
Yosei - by Invincible spirit - Thousand Guineas G1 .
Descarado - by High Chapparal (fee approx $16K) -Caufield cup G1
So You Think - by High Chapp - Cox Plate , Mckinnon Stakes
Lion Tamer - by Storming Home - Vic Derby G1
Star Witness - by Starcraft (fee $33K) - Ascot Vale Stakes G1
Sacred Choice - by Choisir (approx $33K) Empire Rose Stakes
Americain - Dynaformer - Melb Cup
Brazilian Pulse - by Captain Rio - VRC Oaks G1, Wakeful stakes G2
Wall Street - by Montjeu - Cantala Stakes G1
Black Caviar - Bel Esprit - VRC Stakes G1 , AJ Moir Stakes G2
Set For Fame - Reset - Caufield Sprint G2
Culminate - Elnadim - Tristarc Stakes G2
Precedence - Zabeel - Moonee Valley Gold Cup G2
Rekindled Interest - Redoutes Choice - Moonee valley Vase G2
Sound Journey - Good Journey - Crystal Mile G2
Whitefriars - Arena - Linlithgow Stakes G2
Well Rounded - Reset - Matriarch Stakes G2
Famous Roman - Danetime - Lee Steere Stakes G2
Pressday - Domesday - Sandown Guineas G2
Zipping - Danehill - Sandown Classic G2
Playing God - Black Friars - Wa Guineas G2
I won't list all G3 Winners but their sires are in order
Rahy , Istidaad,Tobougg , Foreplay , Dynaformer ,Ladoni, Oratorio (WA) , Al Samer , Royal Academy , Zabeel , High Yield, Secret Savings , Blevic , Freeze , Sir Laurence , blackfriars , Elstroem and Pentire .
 
The evidence for me is clear that you don't need to use the top stallions to get a good runner ( I know you agree with me on that point ) but the best horses do not nessecarily  come out of ,  only the top sales ,  but from any where .
 
Finally after having gone off topic and to reply to Travo's question , I would have to agree that a free service to an unknown stallion sounds like an extremely high risk mating .
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote magic_idol Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jan 2011 at 6:17pm
Wether you take it up or not is up to you.
Just remember by the time the foal is @ race stage wether it's able to run or not you will be up to at least 30k - 40k per foal & the stats are only 6% go on to win in their first year of racing that means 96% don't.
Is a great article to read.
In saying all that
I Love it & yes it does send me to both the Dog House & Poor House..but hell ya can't take it with YaConfused
Happy Fit Horses Win Races :-)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jim Pike Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jan 2011 at 6:34pm
I was talking purely from a Financial point of view

If I was going to get into breeding I would invest as much as possible in buying a top quality young Broodmare, say between $80,000 and $100,000 then I would offer to foal share on the basis that it must go to a stallion that I am happy with to at least a $40,000 service fee, the lessee to pay all costs up to and including sale costs, at which time we would split the proceeds of the sale 50/50 with any luck a reasonable type will bring a minimum of $200,000, if you get a really good type you could get a $Million, a yearling from a good black type family by a commercial sire the risk is minimal, 
I have arranged similar things in the past between 2 clients, that way the mare owner has an investment that he can get his money back on at almost anytime with very little risk
The lessee can get in at the top end of the business without having to outlay big money from the start, it can be a win/win if done right 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jim Pike Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jan 2011 at 6:38pm
that way is a lot better than them both buying cheap mares and going to cheap sires because that is all you can afford
Better to put all your finances into one class project than have to spread yourself too thin so you can cover all the bases 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bradjm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jan 2011 at 8:34pm
You'll be going hard to get 200k out of an 80k mare to a 40k stallion
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jim Pike Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jan 2011 at 10:56am
I said if it was reasonable (meaning good, without being outstanding)type, 
type counts over everything, pedigree only tells you how much you have to pay for it, ie if it was by Zabeel out of Eight Carat you would pay $1mil (or more) for a reasonable type, $3mill or more for an outstanding type, bad types won't bring a lot regardless of their pedigree, in saying that well bred fillies do have quite good broodmare value, without a nice pedigree all you have is a liability
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jim Pike Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jan 2011 at 11:04am
The lessor only has to get around $100,000 to clear his costs, if he gets $200,000 he doubles his investment, and so on. the mare owner has no costs and even $50/60,000 per yearling divided by 2 will pay for the mare in 3 years
I also said a minimum service fee of $40,000, the better mare and the better stallion you can afford the better chance of a bigger profit
Breeding can be risky business, this way at least gives you the opportunity to make money, breeding from cheap stock is even worse odds than buying lotto tickets
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bradjm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jan 2011 at 11:07am
Still at around 40k most of our stallions are terrible value.

What's in that bracket

Choisir
Tale of the cat
And a whole bunch of unproven sires.

80k may get you a stakes placed mare with an ok family or an unraced half sister to a group winning mare or an older well group winning mare that hasn't really delivered in the barn.

The hardest task his identifying which stallion will be the flavor of the month in 2.5 years time.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bradjm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jan 2011 at 11:11am
I hear what you are saying Jim but realistically go through recent sales and see how many stallions average better than their service fee.

The cream of the market will always hold up, the rest you are on a wing and a prayer when the market is off.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Progold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jan 2011 at 12:07pm
type counts over everything
 
I do not agree.  A poor type by Redoute's Choice will make more than a great type by a lesser stallion.  Lots of people have stories of sales companies coming to inspect yearlings and identifying the best types in the paddock, only to be shocked by the pedigree.
 
Market breeding has little to do with type, and all to do with hype.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mr Prospector Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jan 2011 at 3:38pm
I have to agree with JP on the type issue Progold .
 Most trainers buy on type at the sales and ignore pedigree . If its by a stallion like canny lad or similar, and a real good type  ,the buyer will have to pay well above the average for that paticular stallion .
If your taking a yearling to the sales , you want to take a nice type , they are so much easier to sell than a pedigree .
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Progold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jan 2011 at 3:52pm

I can guarantee that trainers will ignore progeny of certain stallions irrespective of how good a type they are.  All that matters in the market is whether the yearling can be resold, and the only chance of that is by "fashionable" names.  Buyers will buy a bad Redoute's (and insert whatever other names you like) rather than a lovely type by an unfashionable stallion.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Run For Fun Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jan 2011 at 3:52pm
Believe the reality for the majority trainers is somewhere in the middle - and aren't sitting on the fence in saying that.
 
Unless they've had success from the female family their determinants are generally:
 
(a) sire [because few can inspect 1000's of lots]; and
 
(b) type [in respect of those pre-determined stallions].
 
Though if one does otherwise catch their eye they'll perhaps bid into the mid-price range.
 
However the time when type definitely comes first is at the "secondary" sales where for obvious reasons trainers with limited cash and who can't regularly turn over stock need to secure strong, athletic types.
 
Just imo.
  
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bradjm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jan 2011 at 4:13pm
Originally posted by Progold Progold wrote:

I can guarantee that trainers will ignore progeny of certain stallions irrespective of how good a type they are.  All that matters in the market is whether the yearling can be resold, and the only chance of that is by "fashionable" names.  Buyers will buy a bad Redoute's (and insert whatever other names you like) rather than a lovely type by an unfashionable stallion.



Totally agree, just as some trainers take a liking to a particular stallion they will also take a set against one and won't touch them.

Also to get a good price you need more than the trainers money, then there are the syndicators who couldn't give a gelati if it's a great type, if it's not fashionably bred they can't sell it.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jim Pike Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jan 2011 at 4:45pm
Trainers who buy by pedigree even if not a good type because it can be sold to an owner are corrupt and it is obvious a deal has been done between the trainer and vendor pre-sale, I have seen trainers pay upward of $1million for yearling's that have had absolutely no chance of ever winning a race!! They must see what I can see, the poor bloody owner has been screwed and he will never even know it!! I could name some very high profile Trainers and Stud Owners that have been involved in this sort of corruption but slander laws prevent me from doing it ans it couldn't be proven anyway in hindsight,  there is no other answer, they must be corrupt!!
No trainer with an owner with that amount of money to spend just wants to fill his stable with Duds for the sake of training fees
Not all good types are good horses but all good horses are good types, any honest trainer goes to the sales looking for a Type first, pedigree second, true he has to on sell the horse but if for any reason he can't on sell it he doesn't want to be stuck owning a high priced lemon, that would be stupid wouldn't it????
I repeat that ALL honest trainers(which is the majority) will not want a bad type regardless of pedigree, obviously if they have an owner give them a $1mill they can't go back with a stunning type and $950,000 change the stupid owner will think he has been screwed, the trainer may look for a good type close to the amount he has to spend even if the $50,000 horse was considered the better, the horse he would rather have but he would not buy a horse that wasn't a good type

True that a lot of good types are knocked back for the major sales, if you actually read my previous posts you will see that I have covered that, to get into the major sales you need a good pedigree that was the whole point of my original post, the better the pedigree the better the chance you will get a good type, if you had a mare like Eight Carat and sent her to Redoutes Choice the progeny would bring good money regardless of type, a good type would bring a squillion, the middle range (which is what we are primarily talking about)need to be good types to bring really good money
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