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Juliet & Chelandry |
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furious
Champion Joined: 19 Feb 2007 Status: Online Points: 25066 |
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Posted: 08 Nov 2009 at 4:41am |
I've always been interested in female families. Seeing some fade through the lack of female foals. Some through the bad luck of being sold to non breeders etc. Unlike a sireline where you can have any numbers of male decendents to keep you line going the mares hang in there sometimes by a tread. So fragile, so many things that can go wrong with so few chances to go on into a further generation. Now I'm sure people on this site know I have an special interest in a few female families with two of them Juliet and Chelandry yet again figuring in the stakes results today.
Chelandry has been a female ancestress of Madame Pedrill, Majestic Music, Right Fong, Midnight Mustang, O'Lonhro, Reverend Lovejoy the sire High Chaparral and todays 2yo winner General Truce.
While Juliet has been responsible for Cats Whisker, Alcopop, Figure of Speech, Streetfighter, So You Think and today Sterling Prince. While Black Piranha has also run well without winning.
It's made for an interest spring. 6 SW and 7 SW already decending from these two mares.
Now Chelandry has branches of her family worldwide while Juliets female line resides only in Australia and New Zealand but there is no doubt both lines are flying at the moment.
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Ticino
Champion Joined: 20 Oct 2008 Location: Germany Status: Offline Points: 4432 |
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Hallo, Furious, In your post some month ago, you mentioned your special interest in the family of „Juliet and Chelandry“. You stated that the Juliet family is restricted to An interesting question, how returned the family back to Thanks to friend in Fair Emigrant was imported in utero in 1900 from Source: GSB Volume XX, p315 Fair Emigrant (September 1900) br f by Grand Flaneur out of Gloria II by Gloria II (1890) was bred in Source: GSB Volume XXI p237 Fair Emigrant produced her first foal in 1905 (b f Aurora II by Collar). The breeder was Mr W Allison. And here is the entry in the A.D.G.B. Vol. 30, p. 392 (= German Thoroughbred Studbook) Savina (13) (St.B.R. IX) Bay, bred at 1974 imported 1975 4.2. br. Filly Skepsis by Navod Hahn Stud 1976 4.2. br. Filly Sexta by Kaiseradler “ 1977 22.4. br. Filly 1978 barren by Priamos “ 1979 barren by Sassafras “ 1980 br. Filly Savanna “ “ “ A.D.G.B. Vol 31 1981 br. Colt Sumeru by Lord Udo “ Died 1982 Savina is the taproot mare of Savio (by Konigsstuhl, 3rd German Derby 1990), Savesco (Esclavo) and Secundus (Daliapour). Here in p. 657), by Madame Thonnard du The complete dam line looks as follows: Fam. 13-a Power Flame (G) by Dashing Blade, Pik König (C) by Königsstuhl, Philipo (C) by Prince IppiÛ Tourbillon, Tolomeo Pikante (Surumu) - Prärie (Espresso) - Pirna (Pantheon) - Piratin (Ticino) - Pinzette (Orgelton) - Pyramide (Aditi) - Preda (Landgraf) - Princess Margaret (Raconteur) - Maddalena (Bona Vista) - Magdalen (Hermit) - Vaga (Stockwell) Mendicant (Touchstone) One of her best offspring was Pontresina (by Biniou, filly), she won the “German Derby” 1915, her direct dam line is sadly extinct. For many years the dam line didn’t produce great winners. During the Eighties and Nineties, her family produced 2 German Derby winners within a few Years, Philipo (by Prince Ippi, Hopefully you will find my information interesting. Best regards from |
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furious
Champion Joined: 19 Feb 2007 Status: Online Points: 25066 |
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Hi Ticino
Interesting post. Yes Juliet blood is out there through her sons but the female line is a bit harder to find. So the fact you found one in Germany is amazing. Most people in Australia ignore the old blood we imported at the beginning of our racing industry as weak and unimportant yet time and again these lines come up with stakes winners. I hope the German branch has similar luck in the future. Thank you for this interesting information.
Furious
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czechhero
Foal Joined: 17 Jul 2013 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 12 |
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Hi there !
This is my first ever post on this site, but I may be able to help with a little more information about Savina, from the posts mentioned above. Any bloodstock data from Romania is not easy to get hold of, but I was in Bucharest in July 2012 trying to discover some information about horse racing in Romania and whilst there, discovered the following about Savina. She was born in 1960 and was a full sister to Sovata, who was a good winner on the flat of a number of races in Romania. Unfortunately, flat racing in that country came to an abrupt finish at the end of 1960 when the racecourse at Baneasa was demolished and it is not clear exactly what happened to the horses afterwards and if they were ever able to race anywhere else, other than Pardubice in Czechoslovakia, to which Romania sent horses on an annual basis between 1961 and 1967 for the international steeplechase meeting held in October. All we know is that they were sent to the track at Ploiesti to be trained with the trotters, but if they were able to race again there is unknown at this stage. I do know that Savina first went to Pardubice in 1964 (I think) and I know for sure too that she finished second in the Memorial Kapitan R. Popler Steeplechase over 3200 metres in both 1966 and 1967. Whether or not she was able to race anywhere else other than in Czechoslovakia is not known to me (I am trying to find this out from sources in Romania), but during the Communist era, hore racing there was considered too capitalist, and the racecourse at Baneasa was bulldozed to make way for a printing house called the Casa Scinteii and an exhibition centre called Romexpo. There was a racecourse at Mangalia, but I don't know if that was still in use. Before she went to Germany in 1974, Savina was sent to stud in Romania and these are the details of her foals born there : Foals Stallion Notes 1969 barren Pardubice 1970 Savan Poet 1971 Satan Copil 1972 Satrap Billiard 1973 barren Nandor 1974 Assumed not covered Of the stallions which she visited, Pardubice won the Romanian Derby in 1959, Poet raced at Pardubice in 1967 without success (I am trying to find out if he raced elsewhere), Copil ran just a few times at Pardubice without being placed and I think that Billiard was unraced. I hope that this may be of interest so many years after the original postings - if I discover any more about Savina in her early days, I will update the post. |
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Gay3
Moderator Group Joined: 19 Feb 2007 Location: Miners Rest Status: Offline Points: 51818 |
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Thanks czechhero, that's a very interesting read to go with Ticinos' post. She's still around so am sure she too will appreciate your taking the time to fill in the early breeding career of Savina
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Wisdom has been chasing me but I've always outrun it!
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furious
Champion Joined: 19 Feb 2007 Status: Online Points: 25066 |
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It really can be a small world. Thank you to all the above european reporters. It is amazing that when a mare might only have one filly or none that any of these very old female favorites can still be found in pedigrees at all.
Savina certainly showed how close that line in Europe was to folding completely when a whole industry collapsed.
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furious
Champion Joined: 19 Feb 2007 Status: Online Points: 25066 |
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There was actually two different Japanese branches also but I can't trace them past the 1980's. One got a Japanese 2000 Guineas winner in the 1960's. While the second had two 1000 Guineas winners in the 1970's as well as a Japanese Oaks winner. Actually the second family springs from the same line as Shamrocker (VRC Australian Guineas and Sire's Produce S and Australian Derby) and Hi Jinx (Melbourne Cup) among others.
Fair Emigrant was a daughter of Grand Flaneur from the Trenton mare Gloria. Talk about taking back to England some Australasian breed lines. Grand Flaneur, Yattendon, Sir Hercules (AUS), Goldsbrough, Fireworks and Angler represented some of our best blood both as racehorses and sires. She had a daughter come back to Australian who foaled All Wheat winner of the AJC Oaks but no female line came from either. The English line ended up in Romania, Norway and Denmark with A Romanian Oaks winner in Snoava (IRE) 1946 a Norway 1000 Guineas, Derby and Oaks winner Misty (IRE) 1972 and a Denmark Derby winners Cacao (DEN) 1938. The Romanian branch must be where Savina comes from. In Australia Saigon Tea appears the best going around this season. A relative quiet year. |
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djebel
Premium Joined: 07 Mar 2007 Status: Offline Points: 53960 |
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furious, Have you used this site to check Japanese pedigrees ? http://www.jbis.jp/
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reductio ad absurdum
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furious
Champion Joined: 19 Feb 2007 Status: Online Points: 25066 |
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No I haven't I'll give it a try. Thanks Djebel.
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furious
Champion Joined: 19 Feb 2007 Status: Online Points: 25066 |
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Helpful and frustrating at once Djebel. For a female line which should work with Sunday Silence and lets face it that's the predominant line they have hardly even tried that blood. Very hard to work through but at least I know the family is still alive if not flourishing.
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furious
Champion Joined: 19 Feb 2007 Status: Online Points: 25066 |
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They can't figure out that the early G1 winners from the family showed a liking for Blandford and Tourbillon blood and the sire was a 13-c line sire. Juliet flourished around Musket blood (same family as Sunday Silence) and Blandford is found in Mahmoud and his damline in the grandsire of Gainsborough and Sunday Silence is inbred to Mahmoud with Hyperion as well. Worth a try I'd think.
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Ticino
Champion Joined: 20 Oct 2008 Location: Germany Status: Offline Points: 4432 |
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Hello,
very and inter5sesting Information about Savina and her Family in Romania (breeding and racing). I know all to weell, who hard it is to get informations about various damlines, especially in the case of the 'language barrier'. Who speaks and understand Romanian in Germany? Yes, Furious savina was imported Romania, see entry of the Germany Stud book. It's very likely , that her "importtion" saves the damline from extinction. Behind the "iron curtain" thoroughbreds were raised, but very often from unknown branches in England and Europe, who have been imported to these countries before the Second World War. When ever I look at East European peds I spot names of German Sires or dams and their bloodlines long vanished from Germanbreeding. Btw, I well known Sire Minoru was exported to Russia and yes I saw his Name in a few Russianbred Race Horses. I will see during the Weekend, whether I could find the article in our Breeders Magazin "Vollblut" about Savina and their offspring. Regards, Ticino P.S.: Some days before I pointed out, the damline of Toorak Toff (Aus) and the Sire Pawiment (Poland) are the same and additionally from Fam. 13! |
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czechhero
Foal Joined: 17 Jul 2013 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 12 |
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Here is a little bit more information about Savina discovered today, which comes from a website the German stud Gestut Gut Buchenhof, which stands the stallion Shrek, whose third dam is Savina.
According to the attached link, Savina won 3 races in Romania, during her racing career. I can only conclude that this would almost certainly have been at the racecourse at Mangalia, as the Baneasa racecourse in Bucharest was demolished at the end of 1960 and I think that Mangalia was probably the only other course in the country for gallop racing. I do know from an article on a Romanian site that Herghelia Cislau, who owned Savina, raced their horses with great success at Mangalia, though actual results seem impossible to find online. Here is the link to the site : http://www.gut-buchenhof.de/html/shrek_xx.html I hope this is of interest. |
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furious
Champion Joined: 19 Feb 2007 Status: Online Points: 25066 |
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Thanks czechhero. Always interested in our European connections.
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furious
Champion Joined: 19 Feb 2007 Status: Online Points: 25066 |
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Had another first time stakes winner from the Juliet clan yesterday with Danesiri winning the Guy Walter S G3.
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furious
Champion Joined: 19 Feb 2007 Status: Online Points: 25066 |
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Juliet makes it another G1 staying event with Rock Diva (Lucky Unicorn) winning the Auckland Cup. And with her G1 winning 1/2 sister Shamrocker in Japan there is a new line of Juliet in Japan.
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Ticino
Champion Joined: 20 Oct 2008 Location: Germany Status: Offline Points: 4432 |
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Hello,
atleast 2 different damlines of the same branch as the AUS taprootmare Juliet are still breeding on in Europe. Usually "Mendicant" is the starting point (won 1000 Guineas, Oaks) via her female descent "Magdalen" (by Hermit), see the imported Sires Three Legs (Horlicks) and Sovereign Edition, to my surprise I saw a Gelding named Legana, who carries 2 strains of Gleam (Magdalen) + his damline traces to Juliet. As I reported sometime ago, Germany got it's own branch of Fam. 13 via the imported Princess Margaret, see Power Flame, Pik König. Out of interest I compared the peds of Juliet with Mendicant and they are 3/4 relatives. Magdalen had a HS, her Name was Stray Shot and she carries the damline to Frizette, who has is a great foundationmare of her own. regards, Ticino |
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furious
Champion Joined: 19 Feb 2007 Status: Online Points: 25066 |
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Yes and they cross wonderfully when those 13 family sires/mares come to Australia. They also love the 1-n of Chelandry ie So you Think. So I can admire both families together.
We got her because as a race horse she didn't do much. But she became a true gem for the Australian turf and despite some bad periods her family remains one of the best produces of stakes winners in Australia and New Zealand. Particularly of stayers.
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furious
Champion Joined: 19 Feb 2007 Status: Online Points: 25066 |
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A very strange one at the weekend. An Australian bred gelding by Alert from the Juliet female line won a LR at Gulfstream. This one appears to be a sprinter. It's last start in Australia was 2nd last in the Albury Guineas behind Ryker. Doesn't say much for the class of sprinter he beat in the USA.
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furious
Champion Joined: 19 Feb 2007 Status: Online Points: 25066 |
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Sometimes I should do my work before picking for these big races.
Many years ago we imported an English Oaks winner to our shores. Marchioness went on to be the dam of two good stakes winners in Angler (VRC Derby) and Fishhook (Sydney Cup) and both these horses went to stud and sired stakes winners both from Juliet and her daughters. The best being Robinson Crusoe (AJC Derby, Champagne S, Sires Produce S, St Leger etc). Now we see Grand Marshal win the Sydney Cup. He decends from a 3/4 sister in blood to Juliet and guess what he's out of an Oaks winner. As an aside the Tails S in Queensland was won by a decendent of that original Oaks winner Marchioness and the third horse also decends from her. While the second horse decends from another great early mare in Lady Chester dam of four times Champion Sire Chester who was also a great raceshorse winning the VRC Derby, Melbourne Cup, AJC Sires Produce S, Champagne S and Ascot Vale S etc. Then the recently run Galilee Series Final was won by a decendent of the dam of Oncidium one of the greatest sires of Stakes horses out of New Zealand back in the 60's, 70's.
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furious
Champion Joined: 19 Feb 2007 Status: Online Points: 25066 |
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And another stakes double to the Juliet line today with Impending and Religify. That is at least three G1's for the female line this year and numerous other stakes races. I know I rattle on about her alot but it is a line which appears time and time again in the winners lists I have to handle so it makes you sit up and watch for them.
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Second Chance
Champion Joined: 02 Dec 2007 Status: Offline Points: 45319 |
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Hi Furious.
Impending's win was a mixed blessing for us today, because it was great to see him win but sad to realise we now won't in all likelihood be able to afford him when he goes to stud. Imo he would be a superb match with our mare Treasury Notes and was hoping he'd be retired to Darley (Vic) without Gp 1's to his credit and thus affordable at about $16,500. But not now I'd reckon, and can see him standing in the Hunter for at least double that figure. ps would be appreciative if you or anyone else has opinions on this potential match, or one with Palentino over the above mare.
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furious
Champion Joined: 19 Feb 2007 Status: Online Points: 25066 |
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I've nicked up to do afternoon downloads before going back to party. I'll look afterwards when I finish todays work.
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Rosscoe
Champion Joined: 02 Apr 2007 Location: Brisbane Status: Offline Points: 6124 |
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I reckon there are 2 really promising matches SC however I'm past posting old hat info!
Check out the 2014 thread of yours in the broodmare forum Dec 2014 ... re .... "Treasury Notes"!! Some very useful & helpful info! At the end of the day, luck (number 1), plays the biggest role!.... in & outside the sales ring ....! Superb matches on paper more often than NOT do not come to fruition! At the end of the day "Luck" rules! |
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Current Stable - Soul Star & Adivinar + Lady Vega
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furious
Champion Joined: 19 Feb 2007 Status: Online Points: 25066 |
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Like Rosscoe I can't see anything wrong with either match. Possible prefer the Impending due to the m x f to Eight Carat (Octagonal-Cotehele House) and m x f to Special through Nureyev and Fairy Bridge.
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Second Chance
Champion Joined: 02 Dec 2007 Status: Offline Points: 45319 |
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[QUOTE=Rosscoe]I reckon there are 2 really promising matches SC however I'm past posting old hat info!
[QUOTE] Well remember the discussion Rosscoe and your suggestions of Reset and Helmet. They certainly appear perfectly fine matches, and appreciated your opinion. Just that Reset is sub-fertile (needs about 4 covers per mare to maintain his fertility stats) whilst Helmet's a dead set head case. Which presents problems as the mare takes a lot of effort to get in foal and can be a bit of a basket herself. So as you often say there's more to breeding than just a paper match. |
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furious
Champion Joined: 19 Feb 2007 Status: Online Points: 25066 |
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Just doing the stakes results from South Africa and Fish River is a Juliet line horse. Looks like it was a cross between Zabeel and Tagula which may of worked here not a mating which I'd look for but then no one is right all the time. Nice to see her name crop up over there anyway. And being a filly she might get a line going over there.
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furious
Champion Joined: 19 Feb 2007 Status: Online Points: 25066 |
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Well the last few years haven't been any different with She Will Reign, Catchy and Impending all winning at G1 level. But with them off to stud it could of been a quiet time. Doesn't seem to be the case with both Brutal and Danawi both first time stakes winners decending from Juliet. Hopefully both colts can go on and win a G1 also.
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furious
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And another three year old stakes winner from the Juliet line. Fiera Vista by Exceed and Excel from the Encosta de Lago mare Empress Jade. Dam has four to race for all winners and two stakes winners.
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furious
Champion Joined: 19 Feb 2007 Status: Online Points: 25066 |
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And the if you look to the older horses there is Magic Consol also decending from Juliet.
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