Is this the end?

Hi all,

See link below and listen to all of it, especially the first 3-4 minutes.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZ2SXwRI9Uk


My question to you all is this:

Are the days of old school or old fashioned stayers winning the Melbourne Cup over?

Listen to Les Carlyon, he seems to think so.

Could a horse like a Brew, Jezabeel, Rogan Josh, Empire Rose, Kingston Rule, Tawirrifc, Subzero, Media Puzzle or any old fashioned stayer win the Melbourne Cup?

Most of the horses listed above didn't win at WFA (only Empire Rose, Rogan Josh and Tawffific did), some were placed at WFA I think from memory. I think maybe Les thinks that if a stayer doesn't win at WFA then they classified as the old fashioned/old school Melbourne Cup type of horse or they are a part of the "Old Melbourne Cup".

In terms of Jezabeel and Rogan Josh, I wouldn't completely say they are old school/old fashioned Melbourne Cup stayers..........or are they? Or did they have a bit of class about them?

How would they have performed in the 2013 Melbourne Cup? Would they have struggled to win.......probably although we are not entirely sure........any evidence to prove it? Would they have placed in the Melbourne Cup of 2013? Maybe but again who knows, it's all subjective. Surely you'd think they'd beat a few horses home, I mean they wouldn't have finished last?

Would pace have played a part in how they performed? Sit and sprint?? Might not have suited them or would it? Strong pace........again might or might not have suited them?

I guess what I'm saying is that are the days of old fashioned stayers winning the Cup over? Does an old fashioned stayer need to win at WFA to suddenly be in "contention" of winning the new age Melbourne Cup? I mean Jezabeel never won at WFA however she was placed, and I wouldn't call her an old school/old fashioned stayer? Maybe half and half but not completely and old fashioned stayer.

Anyway it's interesting listening to Les Carlyon's thoughts so have a listen and I'd like to see your thoughts. Remember, nice robust debate everyone :-)

Hope you're all backing a winner or two.



Cheers,

Fiddlesticks wrote: LOL.... now I'm craving Indian food..

Stop thinking about food and answer the question mate Then go back and enjoy your curry.


Cheers,
Jamal.

The "old fashioned stayer" simply does not get into the Melbourne Cup in this day and age.

I suppose there are three definitions of old-fashioned stayer.

Geraldo wrote: Its your question, are the days of a bad stayer winning the Melbourne Cup over?

Interesting seeing your thoughts guys. I mean I don't classify a Jezabeel or a Rogan Josh or a Shocking as old fashioned stayer although having said that how does one come up with such an assessment? Is it based on their winning weight that they carried in their Cup wins?

Maybe it's hard to define what is an old school/old fashioned stayer etc etc? I mean Shocking and Rogan Josh won at WFA and Jezabeel was placed at WFA. Does a stayer need to win and/or place at WFA to then not be regarded as a old fashioned stayer as Les Carlyon states?

How was the cricket season Jamal..?

any dodgy umpiring decisions mate..??

Excellent work as always Jamal..keep up the good work..

the interesting part in that video was the bagging of the US racing..what did you think of that part..?

Geraldo wrote: Geraldo wrote: Its your question, are the days of a bad stayer winning the Melbourne Cup over? I'm really suffering with this lack of a text editor.  Should read Is your question, are the days of a bad stayer winning the Melbourne Cup over?

Yes are the days of a bad stayer winning the Melbourne Cup over?

The thing is what is a "bad stayer" how does one assess a bad stayer? A light weight hack or a handicapper or what?

But what is Les Carlyon getting at? Is he referring to grinding type of stayers?

Rogan Josh won the MacKinnon and then dropped down to 49k. If that were to happen in any year, that horse would pretty much start favourite.

I guess all this talk about the "Old Melbourne Cup" and old fashioned/old school Cup winners brings Green Moon into the picture (in my opinion).

How does one assess Green Moon? I mean this horse is a handicapper........but an old school handicapper/old fashioned stayer etc?? Maybe or maybe not? I mean Green Moon can't seem to win at WFA and is probably weighted out of the handicap races. Maybe Green Moon is an old fashioned/old school stayer?

Fiddlesticks wrote: The race is run different today, a european stayer can come here first up for 2 years and win it, that's a massively different profile to anything we have ever produced locally, the dynamics are so much different now..sadly the worst part is the KIWI's are missing more often than not these days, and not just in the cups but the big WFA racing here too...when was the last time we saw a Bonecrusher..? It's a dundeel is not exactly a Bonecrusher..

Good points.

Do you think the pace of a race determines whether a grinder (old school/old fashioned) as Les Carlyon put it can win the Cup or not. Or does come down to if the horse is good enough to win or place or top 5 chance etc etc?

There is always going to be the odd lightweight winning the race, but I'd be more inclined to think they would come from leftfield due to a change in track conditions or something on the day, like a heavy 10 or something...the race has changed no doubt, but that does not make it any easier to pick the winner..

I thought a horse like caravan Rolls on was one who fit the "under the radar" profile, but after listening to Chapple Hyam I went cold on the idea as he said it was too soon and 2014 would be more his go..

but that's the sort of horse you need down in the weights, lightly raced and in it's second or third prep and on the up in that prep..