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Inbreeding to dominant racemares

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Majestic View Drop Down
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    Posted: 06 Aug 2017 at 11:41am
I have the opportunity, in the new season, to breed my mare to a specific sire and duplicate Denise's Joy 4Sx4M, breeding being War x Cannon's Crown. What are the views of forumites re this specifically and othe breeding patterns involving inbreeding to dominant racemares.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sir Gov Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Aug 2017 at 12:40pm
Originally posted by Majestic Majestic wrote:

I have the opportunity, in the new season, to breed my mare to a specific sire and duplicate Denise's Joy 4Sx4M, breeding being War x Cannon's Crown. What are the views of forumites re this specifically and othe breeding patterns involving inbreeding to dominant racemares.


On type - I have been very impressed with the War progeny. I know you are after a view on the cross - however he is producing some great types.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote furious Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Aug 2017 at 1:39pm
Looks brilliant on paper and you know the More than Ready cross worked for the line also.  It is actually 4m x 4m both times through the daughters of Denise's Joy but you do have a 5f x 4m to Nureyev and you mare has a 4f x 4m to Special. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Majestic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Aug 2017 at 8:22pm
Thanks Sir Gov, the progeny has to be attractive. I know some ugly animals have been successful, but still, I stand corrected, most good horses are attractive, well built, muscular individuals.
I still have posed the question re inbreeding to good racemares, eg Emancipation, Surround, etc. how about Golden Chariot, Urban City, Ouigi Board, Special, etc. can anyone bring up any inbreeding instances.
I realise inbreeding to Stallions is a given with the limited bloodline pools, but surely there are some examples of the "taproot" mare being more influential in a pedigree. Furious, your knowledge and feedback would be appreciated.
We in Oz have lost so many influential female lines due to chasing a male stallion line, as has NZ, in the chase for stallion commercial lines, most of which have fallen by the wayside over the last 30 years, like the Belle family, the Jewel family, the Racamba family, the family old man Hayes ( the father of Van Dyke) developed, the Leica family developed by Bob Gard ( a family friend BTW),
I am sure the stallion stations have hoodwinked us with their blurb re young Stallions, to the detriment of their older, successful, commercial Stallions.
Over to you all to continue discussion.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote furious Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Aug 2017 at 10:04pm

Well look at High Chaparral (Sadler's Wells).  He had 64 foals out of Zabeel mares (out of Nureyev mare) for 37 starters 26 winners 5 Black Type winners.  This is the Special cross f x m.  The best is Dundeel who gives you Special 4f x 5m.  Remember him?  Alpine Eagle was another.  The Sadler's Wells/Encosta de lago (Fairy Bridge cross) is in Whispered Secret.  Or you have the High Chaparral gelding Fabrizio out of a Desert King mare so you find Special 4f x 5m and Thong 5f x 6f, 6f.

Don't think there has been any inbreeding to Emancipation as most of the line either geldings or fillies.  Stratum Star may be given a chance to see if it works.  This is another thing which works.  Emancipation's line going back to a stallion who has the strong blood (that of Bletchingly) which produced the Champion.  I'm watching one by Redoute's in South Africa out of Raid.  Loved him as a yearling but so far only a winner.

Surround is another without that top sire son.  Unless a colt like Stratum Star comes up the chances of inbreeding will be next to impossible.  Too often their sons and grandsons have been gelded or fillies went unnamed or foaled only colts who were gelded.

The Jewel family had Baguette and he had his grandson Rory's Jester.  And with the success of Not a Single Doubt.  One carrying this cross is Grande Rosso with his second dam being by Rory's Jester and his 5th dam Briolette a daughter of Dark Jewel.

The Best in Show family (Redoute's Choice) have had Trapeze Artist this season 6f x 6f.  Another 6f x 6f cross to Best in Show is in Final Salute.

Too Good to Refuse has an inbreeding to Jesmond Lass 4f x 4m through Canny Lass and Canny Lad.  Another with this Canny Lad x Canny Lass cross is Eckstein.

The Belle family you talk about is the old Manto line from which Written Tycoon comes from.  This season we saw Peacock from this line as a stakes winner.  Peacock is inbred to Eight Carat 3m x 4f

Another great mare you didn't mention was Dual Choice.  She is the 5th dam of last seasons G1 winner Scales of Justice who is inbred to Dancing Show 4f x 3m.

Truly Vain was inbred to Rarcamba 3f x 3f - so very close indeed.  He was a very good sire in New Zealand.

Brazen Beau's dam is inbred 4f x 4f to Windy Answer a great race and broodmare.

Fighting Sun is inbred to Rough Shod a minor winner but a great broodmare and grandam of Nureyev and Fairy Bridge (dam of Sadler's Wells, Fairy King etc)

Young stallion Furnaces dam is inbred 3c x 3f to Summoned through Zeditave and his 1/2 sister Pampas Fire.  Some of the mares you have above are only just getting to the inbreeding stage.  But if they don't have a good sire son it is always going to be hard to inbred to them.  This is also the family of Pariah, Melito and yet another $2million plus yearling.  But the best haven't yet been inbred to Summoned.

Another new sire Shalaa is inbred to Doubly Sure through her two top sons Kris and Diesis.  He won the Middle Park Stakes a two year old race which has give us many top stallions.

Years ago there was a champion Australian bred sire (seven years in a row) who was inbred 4f x 3f to Illuminata through her daughters Gas and Chelandry.  That old Chelandry line is still going strong in Australia.  One this season Montoya's Secret has both her sire High Chaparral and dam Divine Secret decending from Chelandry.  You find this same cross in Invincible Star though her sire I am Invincible and dam Romany Flyer.  The stakes winner yesterday Invincible Gem has that Chelandry cross through her sire I am Invincible and the sire of her dam Marwina.

Years ago the Sunbride family produced Dayana the season saw Divine Prophet from this family.  Maybe some inbreeding can occur to that family with this young sire.

Another inbred to a good mare is Derryn with Easy Date 4m x 4f through Snippets and True Blonde.

Also interesting is Beirut by Lonhro who has his second dam by Dalmacia.  This gives a 6f x 6f inbreeding to Sweet Time.  Sweet Time was the dam of Gay Poss (AJC Oaks, Caulfield S).

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Aug 2017 at 12:32am
Inbreeding - linebreeding to Urban Sea and her family will feature for the next few years.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nostradamus II Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Aug 2017 at 8:59am
The following winners and stakes winners are from my NZ & Australia database. Inbreeding 4x4 or closer including 3/4 siblings. A number have a full sibling denoted (full).

Salford Art: Violetta 4x4
Happy Trails: Special 3x4
Manhattan Flame: Shantha's Choice 2x3
Manhattan Street: Shantha's Choice 2x3 (full)
Platinum Dragon: Shantha's Choice 2x3 (full)
Budwiser: Rose Bower 4x3 (full)
Eastwood: Rose Bower 4x3 (full)
Ekraarstatic: Sacahuista 2x3
Astroturf: Rolls 3x3
Speak Fondly: Rolls 4x3
Moonovermanhattan: Rolls 4x3
Catch A Fire: Rolls 4x4 (full)
Seaburge: Rolls 4x4 (full)
Castup: Princess Tracy 2x3 (full)
How True: Princess Tracy 2x3 (full)
Hydrogen: Priceless Gem 4x3
Snow Charm: Park Appeal 3x3
The Alcippe: Park Appeal 3x3
Red Ripper: Tree Of Knowledge 3x4
Designacat: Valoris 4x4
Wairaka: River Lady 4x4
Sir Elmo: Height Of Fashion 4x4
Beauty Perception: Special 4x4
Ascomanni: Betty's Secret 4x3
Royal Dominance: Special 4x4 via 3/4 sibs Fairy King & Nureyev
Bronte Lass: Special 3x4 via 3/4 sibs Nureyev & Sadler's Wells 2x2
Lucky Charm: Never Too Late 4x4
Margot: Native Partner 4x4
Elusive Empire: My Charmer 4x4
Te Awamututiki Girl: My Charmer 4x4
Smash Hit: Con Game 4x4
Felicity Hall: Lovenvain 3x3
Legal Aid: Klairessa 3x4
Carbide: Klairessa 4x3
Get Out Of It: Klairessa 4x4
Rejoice: Joy And Fun 4x4
Lavish Prince: Hunza 3x3
Lookherepal: Hardiemma 4x4
Isola Bella: Welsh Garden 3x3
Crux: Goodbye Heart 3x3
Patience: Gem In The Rough 2x3
Harbour Beau: Fanfreluche 4x4
Princess Katie: Fall Aspen 2x4
Highly Excessive: Fairy Bridge 3x4 via 3/4 sibs Sadler's Wells & Perugino
Velocci: Fairy Bridge 4x4
Flirtation: Eight Carat 2x4
Dazzling Lady: Eight Carat 3x4
Demandz: Eight Carat 3x4
Peacock: Eight Carat 3x4
Allure: Eight Carat 3x4
Miracles Of Life: Easy Date 3x4
Derryn: Easy Date 4x4
Mahbeer: Dancing Show 4x3
Scales Of Justice: Dancing Show 4x3
Thwayya: Dancing Show 4x3
The Likely One: Crimson Saint 4x3
Star Exhibit: Crimson Saint 4x4
Our Daisy: Cotehele House 2x3
Heaven Sent: Cosmah 4x4
Irish Chat: Chatty Lady 4x4
Ididit: Alama 4x3
Impulsive Habit: Fairy Bridge 4x4
Katie's So Kool: Balidaress 4x4 (full)
Portovenere: Balidaress 4x4 (full)
Los Vargas: Alynda x Jewel Box 3x3 (full sisters)
Hidden Treasure: All My Eye 4x4

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote furious Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Aug 2017 at 9:33am
I forgot the Tavistock/Zabeel crosses also.  

Tarzino and Werther also carry that Special cross.  Sadler's Well's line sire over Zabeel mare.  One generation back for sire being 5f x 5m.  Or another Tavistock G1 winner inc Tavago who's dam is by a son of Nureyev so you find Special 5f x 4m.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gay3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Aug 2017 at 10:10am
Astroturf: Rolls 3x3
Speak Fondly: Rolls 4x3
Moonovermanhattan: Rolls 4x3

As an aside, there's a now 5yo, broken only as a 3yo & left, by Man Of Illusion ex Ed's Sister/Flying Spur/Edwina/Vain therefore 4 x 3 Rolls bought for $450 at Colac sales y'day by a Maffra dealer, in case anyone's interested.
Probably available for $1k.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote furious Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Aug 2017 at 10:23am
Yes Delago Deluxe, Speak Fondly and Atmospherical all have that Rolls cross.  Encosta and Flying Spur give you that cross and Flying Spur was a son of Rolls and Encosta a Grandson of Rolls.  One of the reasons Moonovermanhattan was interesting Gay3 but he was no worldbeater.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Breeder Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Aug 2017 at 11:20am
There will be some interesting horses to watch in NZ in a couple of years. 
The Dennis Bros. ( breeders of the very successful family which they famously name all the progeny starting with "The ...." ) have their stallion The Bold One ( Fastnet Rock x The Jewel) standing at Grangewilliam Stud. They have sent a number of their mares from the family to the stallion. So in this case it is really more than crossing a famous mare but a carefully nutured family. ( One could perhaps argue it is an example of crosing a tap root mare's family). It is also a bottom line crossing in the stallion and mare in each case. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Ticino Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Aug 2017 at 7:06pm
Hello,
some mating hypothesis from a "German Eye" with the Dalmary Family.
 
Testarossa - Cannons Crown:
2x3x4 to the 3/$ relatives Perugino/Sadlers Wells/Nureyev
3x4 Fairy Bridge, 4x5x5 Special
 
Soldier Hollow - Cannons Crown:
3x3x4 Sadlers Wells/Nureyev + Lisadell FS Special
4x5 Shirley Heights
4x5 Kris
 
Our Ivanhowe - Cannons Crown:
3x4x4 Sadlers Wells/Nureyev + Lisadell FS Special
5x5 Shirley Heights
5x5 Kris
5x5 Blushiing Groom
 
Soldier Hollow stands in Germany and Our Ivanhowe is still racing, lets hope they don't geld him
 
Some months ago I send a list of "Tailfemale breeding" to the Forum and I want to add
3x4 Feola (Authi, see Monsun/Sternkonig)
2x3 Knights Daughter or 3x4 Feola (Tell, see O'Reilly)
 
3x3 Nasrullah/Rivaz (Kalamoun,see Highest Honor, Kenmare)
 
regards, Ticino
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gay3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Aug 2017 at 7:42pm
Thanks Ticino Smile Unfortunately Our Ivanhowe suffers the very common European imports 'soft feet' syndrome (poor Oz farriers?) so we're unlikely ever see the best of him with his most solid performances coming on wet tracks.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote GAJ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Aug 2017 at 5:58pm
Majestic, we have a young one here 2 x 3 Savannah Success, he a very good sort, let you know how he goes! Also he has deeper crosses of Natalma (5) and Something Royal and Oceana.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote furious Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Aug 2017 at 6:11pm
Yep Savannah Success dam Alma Mater (adrian knox S) has a cross of Todman and Noholme so Oceana 4m x 4m and and I've noticed some of the Savabeels with a further cross through Imposing to Todman mostly. Some even appear with the another son Shifnal usually through one of his best daughters Jandell.

Don't know if this is always correct but I've found that inbreeding to superior females often arrives with a superior broodmare or sire.  Often they produce at stud better than on the track but they can still be good racehorses or mares.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote furious Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Aug 2017 at 11:45am
One who you should look at is the great chestnut Triton.  Gunsynds rival being a sprinter miler.  Now his dam was in bred to Celebrity 2m x 3f and her dam Cinna 3f x 4f.  Now Cinna (a great racemare and dam of Balloch, Beau Pere and Mr Standfast all good to great sires) herself was inbred to her grandam Quiver (dam of La Fleche Epsom Oaks, 1000 Guineas, St Leger, Ascot Gold Cup etc) 3f x 3f.  So you see that Triton's dam pedigree was actually very very inbred to a females of quality.  Then his sire was by Palestine who also decended from Quiver and had Carbine also in his pedigree (Carbine while not from this female line was inbred to Brown Bess 2nd dam of Quiver).  This is also the family of Vice Regal, Sunday Silence and Show a Heart.

Just remember that this 3e family seem to like each other and must on the whole be sound.  Triton was know for shelly feet and I pretty sure that was a fault in a different great Musket horse in Trenton.  Don't know is Carbine had any issues that way.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gay3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Aug 2017 at 12:35pm
Research turned up that Carbine was at times trained barefoot so maybe to toughen his feet Confused
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Ticino Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Aug 2017 at 8:01pm
Hello,
after the succes of Hellmet/bullbars/Epaulette in Australia from an old German Family. it's worth a look at the ped of the 3. dam "Anna Paola", she is the rare case of a very good Filly on the race track and exceptional broodmare. Anna Paola won Preis des Winterfavoriten (Juvenile, nowadays Group 3), Preis der Diana (German Oaks, Group 1); Ludwig Goebels Erinnerungs Rennen (Group 3), Berberis Rennen (Listed), 8 starts, 5 wins, 1 Placing; Champion 2 and 3 year old in Germany.
 
Anna Paola is bred 4x4x4 FB/FS Abendfrieden/Astrologie,
her dam Antwerpen 3x3 Abendfrieden, 3x4 Winnica (Family of Kincsem)
 
Wappenau (dam of Waldcanter) is 2x2 FB/FS Alchimist/Antonia and/or 3x3 out of FS Adresse/Aversion (all from Alveole Family)
 
Damsire of "Prince Ippi" Agamemnon (!) is bred 1x3 Herold, Herold is 3x4 Hampton and Antonia
3x3 Ard Patrick
 
Btw, Tiger Hill, who shuttled to Australia is a member of the Family of Carbine/Musket, admittingly via a quite uncommon strain, he traces to Baroness La Fleche, a HS of Cinna. Carbine was introduced in German peds, as example via Bramouse (Dam of Birkhahn/Burgermeister) - Cappiello - Spion Kop - Spearmint - Carbine. An interesting observation Tiger Hill's damsire was Appiani, who inturn is the Sire of Star Appeal.
 
regards, Ticino
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote diomed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Aug 2017 at 9:50pm
Here is a list of colts, geldings, fillies with two or more females producing females in six generations.
The list is in descending merit order (imo).

I'm using a database of 159,660 rated horses: colts, geldings, fillies. (average rating 78.7)
There are 6,822 horses in the data with one or more females producing 2+ females. (average rating 82.3)
These 119 have two females duplicated producing females (4+) (average rating (84.5)
I live in Dublin and the data is Ireland, Great Britain heavy.

I don't have info for a female duplication producing females in the positions in your test-mating.
Thatching (1975) has females on his dam lines similar to your duplication.
Of course many of the duplicated dams in the horse at the top of my list are famous dams.


Name DOC SEX d_ff d_ffff
REVOKED 1943 M 2 0
TAPIOCA 1953 M 2 0
VELOCITY 1902 M 2 0
SILVER CHARM 1994 M 2 0
THATCHING 1975 M 2 0
RUNAWAY GROOM 1979 M 2 0
GOLDEN THATCH 1976 M 2 0
HEIGHT OF FASHION 1979 F 2 0
GAUL 1959 M 2 0
DAY IS DONE 1979 M 2 0
ADMIRE AURA 2004 M 2 0
MISS GRIS 1982 F 2 0
MALENKA 1982 F 2 0
PENCADER 1991 M 2 0
FANCY NASKRA 1978 F 2 0
MENELEK 1957 M 2 0
REVIELLE 1976 M 2 0
LEFT HAND 2013 F 2 0
CHASTAR 1974 F 2 0
PHIL'S FANCY 1976 F 2 0
TRANQUILITY LAKE 1995 F 2 0
NAFISAH 1998 F 2 0
STARTINO 1983 F 2 0
IRISH 1972 M 2 0
MYSTERIOUS LIGHT (11) 2005 M 2 0
ALMA ATA 1978 F 2 0
CONSIGLIERE 1988 M 2 0
SOUND OF HEART 2009 F 2 0
FROSTY WELCOME 1999 F 2 0
KATHMANBLU 2008 F 2 0
HEARTILY 2011 F 2 0
ULTRASONIC 2009 F 2 0
GRAIN D'ORGE 1956 M 2 0
CHOKAI FIGHT 2003 M 2 0
BEDLAM BERTIE 2003 G 2 0
BLINDING SPEED 1991 M 2 0
TACHYON KURU 2006 M 2 0
GRATEFUL TIME 2004 M 2 0
RAYSIZA 1997 F 2 0
NINTH INFANTRY 2007 F 2 0
SUZUKA SAMBA 2004 M 2 0
DON'T WARY 1988 F 1 1
MAJURA 2005 F 2 0
SOUND MUSIC 2008 F 2 0
FELINO 2003 G 2 0
LOVE LEGEND 1985 G 2 0
DIXIE CHICKEN 2007 F 2 0
PROFIT ALERT 1995 F 2 0
ALMEIDO 1948 M 2 0
TAGANO INNOCENCE 2007 F 2 0
STORM HILL 1996 M 2 0
GOSBECK 2008 F 2 0
VICTORY MARCH 2007 F 2 0
COIMBRA 1982 F 2 0
JOURNEY TIME 2005 F 2 0
LAXFORD BRIDGE 1991 M 2 0
MAMOURA 1990 F 2 0
GREENVADOR 2003 M 2 0
GLORY DAYS 1998 M 2 0
VIENNA WALTZ 2004 F 2 0
THURI 1953 M 2 0
DESERT FORCE 1989 M 2 0
ARLINGTON HEIGHTS 1989 M 2 0
NONA 1984 F 2 0
BEACON HILL 1978 F 2 0
GULF HARBOUR 1994 G 2 0
AU REVOIR 1969 F 2 0
VAILLANT PRINCE 2001 M 2 0
ELECTRONIC SOCKS 2004 F 2 0
BIZZY NIZZY 2010 M 2 0
BLUE TICK HOUND 2008 G 2 0
OUR VISION 1987 G 2 0
MARILYN 1989 F 2 0
UNASSISTED 1993 F 2 0
VERDEUSE 1987 F 2 0
BOLD ENCOUNTER 1991 F 2 0
FREISTATT 1975 F 2 0
MERAN 1972 F 2 0
CHICA MIA 1984 F 2 0
FRISCO SON 1992 M 2 0
PONDICHERRY 1990 F 2 0
BILLBERRY 2005 G 2 0
LASTMAN 1995 G 2 0
ASH PROJECT 1994 M 2 0
GUARDS BRIGADE 1991 G 2 0
HURRICANE LOUIS 1996 M 2 0
LUCKY DIP 1994 F 1 1
PAPER DANCE 1988 G 2 0
SURVIVAL VENTURE 1996 G 2 0
ARTHUR'S STONE 1986 G 2 0
MISS BOWL 2010 F 2 0
PULMICORT 1990 G 2 0
SHIMMER 1989 F 2 0
DISMAY 2008 F 2 0
TOUCH MY HEART 1978 F 2 0
COMMUNITY 2008 F 2 0
WELSH MANSION 1986 G 2 0
ALPHA HELIX 1983 G 2 0
FLASH OF LIGHT 1998 F 2 0
ARMINITA 1995 F 2 0
REPLACEMENT 1987 G 2 0
GRAND ILLUSION 1999 G 2 0
JAWATA 1971 F 2 0
WINTER DOLPHIN 1998 F 2 0
DARING JOY 1987 F 2 0
ROYAL GLEN 1998 F 2 0
TEXAS FRIDAY 1990 G 2 0
AFRICAN SAFARI 1984 G 2 0
CHARLIES DREAM 1991 F 1 1
TAROUCCA 1992 F 2 0
ASCOM PAGER TOO 1990 F 2 0
KOMASEPH 1992 G 1 1
BAEZA 1990 G 2 0
PRINCE CONFEY 1994 M 2 0
IL FRATELLO 1991 G 2 0
BENAZIR LADY 1991 F 2 0
TAN PRINCESS 1987 F 2 0
CELESTIAL 1991 F 2 0
MEDESSA 1973 F 2 0

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote furious Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Aug 2017 at 11:37am
Great mares like Plucky Liege (Crafty Admiral), Lalun (through Never Bend and Bold Reason), Scapa Flow (Showdown/Vain etc), Selene (Sir Tristram), Flaming Page (Northerly), Somethingroyal (Veandercross), Star Kingdom (Canterbury Pilgrim), Midstream (Quiver), Heroic (Illuminata),  Carbine (Brown Bess), and any Danehill (Natalma) and any other Danehill/Northern Dancer cross gives you more Natalma and any Danehill cross to Halo (ie the More Than Ready/Flying Spur cross) gives you Almahmoud dam of Natalma and Cosmah.

The last two are in plenty of good and bad pedigrees.  It still all depends on the class of the mares used and whether the two (sire and dam) combine well.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Ticino Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Aug 2017 at 7:27pm
Hello,
when I started  my pedigreestudies I was very surprised to recognise, who many our "top Broodmares/Foundationmares" were either very mediocre fillies on the racetrack/unraced or their race track performernce was discribed as "raced a few times".
 
Let's take as example "Sterna" (by Neckar) she raced 6 times with 4 placings, but her HS "Santa Cruz" was Champion filly 3 year old and Champion older Fillies. Sterna  is the dam of Star Appeal (Germany's first Arc Winner in 1975), granddam of Strong Gale (won a  Group 3 race in Germany and  was later a very good "National Hunt" sire) and 3rd dam of Sternkonig (by Kalaglow)
 
Opposite to mayn other racing Nations still "unraced" fillies are used for breeding purposes, in some cases could it be to keep a family a life, because our breeding Population is much smaller than in AUS and their is the possibility of fatal racing accidents. Some of our breeding stock was purchased during the 1940's and here I read the info, "Unraced due to the war".
 
Btw, Furious mentioned Plucky Liege, here in Germany we have the "Prompt Payment" branch tracing to Noor Jahan (by Teddy), a FS of Bull Dog/Sir Gallahad, see Pia, Chief Singer, Protektor, Winged Love, Pleasantly Perfect/Distant View (Noor Jahan) and a sire named Santus (Miesque)
 
regards, Ticino
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote furious Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Aug 2017 at 8:41am
Thanks Ticino
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote furious Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Aug 2017 at 2:40pm
For a prime example ofLalan I should of put High Chaparral.  Fairy Bridge (Bold Reason) and Shirley Heights/Mill Reef (Never Bend).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Aug 2017 at 4:07pm
I look foward to seeing horses running around with treble crosses of Winx.



STRIKE WHILST THE IRON IS HOT

reductio ad absurdum

The richest man is not he who has the most, but he who needs the least.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote furious Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Aug 2017 at 4:12pm
Urban Sea also in a few years time you would think.  Plenty of sire sons to choose from to cross back to Galileo line.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Aussiepunta Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Aug 2017 at 6:59pm
Might put WAR on the list for the mare i part own too, cant have too much Denise's Joy.
Im just an ex con tryna go straight and get my kids back.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote furious Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Aug 2017 at 1:12pm
Would of been nice if Meurice hadn't of died to see if he would of crossed with mares with Rubiton or Euclase in the pedigree.  Breeding back to Ruby.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Einstein Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Aug 2017 at 8:16pm
Originally posted by furious furious wrote:

Would of been nice if Meurice hadn't of died to see if he would of crossed with mares with Rubiton or Euclase in the pedigree.  Breeding back to Ruby.
Not the Maurice who is at Arrowfield???
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Aug 2017 at 8:44pm
Originally posted by Einstein Einstein wrote:

Originally posted by furious furious wrote:

Would of been nice if Meurice hadn't of died to see if he would of crossed with mares with Rubiton or Euclase in the pedigree.  Breeding back to Ruby.<div id="UMS_TOOLTIP" style="left: -100000px; top: -100000px; cursor: pointer;">

Not the Maurice who is at Arrowfield???


No.

He won the 2007 Champagne Stakes.



STRIKE WHILST THE IRON IS HOT

reductio ad absurdum

The richest man is not he who has the most, but he who needs the least.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Majestic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Sep 2017 at 8:06pm
Can someone give me an idea re doubling, tripling up on Special. Unfortunately, War is not an option with my partner in the HC mare.
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