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Inbreeding to Danehill

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Sworn Revenge View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sworn Revenge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Feb 2017 at 2:36pm
Hopefully Slowdown the half to Lady Lynette by NF sells well at Adelaide on the back of Pateena Arena

Edited by Gay3 - 23 Feb 2017 at 4:10pm
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.Swynford. View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote .Swynford. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Feb 2017 at 3:22pm

I think to make a conclusion on only one duplication in a pedigree or come up with stats on it is actually useless information.
I love the mating of Referendum with Needs Further.   I would start with the mares male line first and as we can see it is the same as the bottom line of the stallion. In my opinion this is perfect and the most powerful line breeding pattern there is. (Top line of the mare with the bottom line of the stallion.) Further up that male line is Sir Ivor and he appears as a brood-mare sire in Encosta De Lago.  Again to my mind right on the button.
Danehill by himself doesn't interest me  but as one can see there is so much more happening than just him 

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote slowdown Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Feb 2017 at 6:29pm
Originally posted by Sworn Revenge Sworn Revenge wrote:

Hopefully Slowdown the half to Lady Lynette by NF sells well at Adelaide on the back of Pateena Arena
yes hope so Sworn. there is a lot more to come from Cheryl(Pateena Arena). straight to the paddock then do it all again next year in the 3 year old races. licked the bin out last night. didn't leave an oat. tough as nails.
Star - trialling tuesday,Rebel - racing in 3 or 4 weeks, Attie - spelling, Lionel - first prep, Brandy - spelling.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bradjm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Feb 2017 at 6:35pm
Originally posted by djebel djebel wrote:

Originally posted by bradjm bradjm wrote:

46% winners to runners and 2.5% stakes winners to runners is hardly a ringing endorsement


You would need to cut through the dross and look how often this kind of breeding is through quality stock.

As I asked, I wonder what Star Kingdoms percentages were for similar inbreeding ?





No you wouldn't otherwise you could pick any inbreeding and say oh it's good if you take out the crap ones.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote .Swynford. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Feb 2017 at 7:18pm
Not a stakes winner yet but similar pedigree to those posted earlier in this thread,  double Danehill. Important in my opinion is the second pattern and one that I think is emerging with Snippets and that is mares lower in the pedigree from the Grey Sovereign male line. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote .Swynford. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Feb 2017 at 7:27pm
Similar structured pedigree, the interesting observations for me are the male lines of the mares and how they fit into the stallion. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote .Swynford. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Feb 2017 at 7:44pm
This is a glaring example of a second pattern. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote goldey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Feb 2017 at 8:01pm
Would the last example be a build up of Lady Susan via Rockefella and Danzig possibly ?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote goldey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Feb 2017 at 8:05pm
Be interesting when it meets Bletchingly imo .
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote goldey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Feb 2017 at 8:09pm
There is a fair share of Bletchingly floating around the Standing stallions at Arrowfield Where Shalaa is to stand next season maybe a coincidence ?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote furious Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Feb 2017 at 7:48am
It's never a shame when Danzig and Bletchingly cross that 7a cross is found in Arrowfields best stallion so maybe they are going for similar blood.  Not a close but still from the 7 family Lunchtime and Zamazaan seem to work well also.  Just some with these crosses highlight the Australian turf in the last twenty odd years -

Canny Lad - Bletchingly x Lunchtime mare, Redoute's Choice - Danehill x Canny Lad mare, Elvstroem - Circles of Gold (second dam by Zamazaan) to Danehill, Choisir - Danehill Dancer x Lunchtime mare, Desert War - Desert King x Canny Lad mare, Shogun Lodge - Grand Lodge x Best Western mare, I am Invincible - Invincible Spirit x Canny Lad mare, Dodge - Canny Lad x Zamazaan mare, He's No Pie Eater - Canny Lad x Ascot Knight mare, Fashions Afield - Redoute's Choice x 2nd dam by Bletchingly
Snitzel - Redoute's Choice x Snippets mare, Stratum Star - Stratum x son of Snippet), Virage de Fortune - Anabaa x 2nd dam by Bletchingly and on and on


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Flight Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Feb 2017 at 8:16am
Originally posted by .Swynford. .Swynford. wrote:


I think to make a conclusion on only one duplication in a pedigree or come up with stats on it is actually useless information.
 
In most instances I would tend to agree with that statement however, in the case of Danehill, most of the resulting progeny were relatively well bred and given every opportunity.
 
The way I saw it, Danehill's best performers were from non-Northern Dancer line mares.  My interpretation was that no more Natalma was needed.  To then cross Danehill with Danehill made no sense to me.
 
 
“The probability of a certain set of circumstances coming together in a meaningful (or tragic) way is so low that it simply cannot be considered mere coincidence. ”
― V.C. King
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote furious Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Feb 2017 at 8:30am
Might make no sense Flight but they are struggling with all the best female lines have Danehill somewhere in the pedigree.  We need an explosion of another sireline to help them all out.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Isaac soloman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Feb 2017 at 9:53am
A Shamardal line stallion?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote furious Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Feb 2017 at 10:22am
Who know's Isaac.  Shamardal still has many lines of his blood in Australia with his damline producing Street Cry.  Not sure about the Storm Cat line here.  They show glimpses of greatness but not in great numbers so that is a minus.  Also it is just another line of Northern Dancer and I think we need another line to step up - but which one!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote .Swynford. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Feb 2017 at 10:25am
Originally posted by Flight Flight wrote:

Originally posted by .Swynford. .Swynford. wrote:


I think to make a conclusion on only one duplication in a pedigree or come up with stats on it is actually useless information.
 
In most instances I would tend to agree with that statement however, in the case of Danehill, most of the resulting progeny were relatively well bred and given every opportunity.
 
The way I saw it, Danehill's best performers were from non-Northern Dancer line mares.  My interpretation was that no more Natalma was needed.  To then cross Danehill with Danehill made no sense to me.
 
 

Flight      I think if you look at Danehill's Group One winners approx 1/3 were out of Northern Dancer male line mares 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote furious Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Feb 2017 at 10:29am
While Redoute's and Fastnet have been great sires - they are not in the same class as their sire.  So as he was foaled in 1986 we are almost due the next great.  Hopefully sometime in the next 10 years.  There was forty years between Star Kingdom and Danehill.  They didn't cross in the sireline till back at Whalebone (GB) 1807.

So I'm expecting something not from the Northern Dancer line to surprise us.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Feb 2017 at 10:42am
It will almost certainly be a sire from the Northern Dancer tribe, Or a much lesser chance from the Native Dancer tribe.

Almost a zero chance from any other tribe.

#SYT




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Feb 2017 at 11:14am
SUMMER MONSOON (AUS)Bay colt 2014 
Stratum
Bay 2002
Redoute's Choice
Bay 1996
Danehill
Bay 1986
Danzig
Bay 1977
Northern Dancer
Pas de Nom
1961
1968
2-d
7-a
Razyana
Bay 1981
His Majesty
Spring Adieu
1968
1974
4-d
2-d
Shantha's Choice
Bay 1992
Canny Lad
Brown 1987
Bletchingly
Jesmond Lass
1970
1975
7-a
14>
Dancing Show
Bay 1983
Nijinsky
Show Lady
1967
1976
8-f
8-f
Bourgeois
Chestnut 1991
Luskin Star
Chestnut 1974
Kaoru Star
Chestnut 1965
Star Kingdom
Kaoru
1946
1955
1-g
31>
Promising
Chestnut 1968
Idomeneo
Modern Touch
1960
1963
2-i
2-e
Brave New World
Chestnut 1980
Vain
Chestnut 1966
Wilkes
Elated
1952
1957
13-c
A10
Undaunted
Bay or brown 1972
Le Cordonnier
Broadlea
1963
1956
2-n
4-n
Princess Narine
Bay 2006
Red Ransom
Bay 1987
Roberto
Bay 1969
Hail to Reason
Brown 1958
Turn-To
Nothirdchance
1951
1948
1-w
4-n
Bramalea
Bay or brown 1959
Nashua
Rarelea
1952
1949
3-m
12-c
Arabia
Bay 1977
Damascus
Bay 1964
Sword Dancer
Kerala
1956
1958
1-o
8-h
Christmas Wind
Bay 1967
Nearctic
Bally Free
1954
1960
14-c
6-b
Monsoon Wedding
Bay 2001
Danehill
Bay 1986
Danzig
Bay 1977
Northern Dancer
Pas de Nom
1961
1968
2-d
7-a
Razyana
Bay 1981
His Majesty
Spring Adieu
1968
1974
4-d
2-d
Shantha's Choice
Bay 1992
Canny Lad
Brown 1987
Bletchingly
Jesmond Lass
1970
1975
7-a
14>
Dancing Show
Bay 1983
Nijinsky
Show Lady
1967
1976
8-f
8-f
 Ancestor duplications:Danehill3m x 3f Shantha's Choice3m x 3f


STRIKE WHILST THE IRON IS HOT

reductio ad absurdum

The richest man is not he who has the most, but he who needs the least.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Feb 2017 at 11:20am
Not quite inbreeding to Danehill but still - 

SUMMER PASSAGE (AUS)Bay colt 2014 
Snitzel
Bay 2002
Redoute's Choice
Bay 1996
Danehill
Bay 1986
Danzig
Bay 1977
Northern Dancer
Pas de Nom
1961
1968
2-d
7-a
Razyana
Bay 1981
His Majesty
Spring Adieu
1968
1974
4-d
2-d
Shantha's Choice
Bay 1992
Canny Lad
Brown 1987
Bletchingly
Jesmond Lass
1970
1975
7-a
14>
Dancing Show
Bay 1983
Nijinsky
Show Lady
1967
1976
8-f
8-f
Snippets' Lass
Bay 1993
Snippets
Bay 1984
Lunchtime
Chestnut 1970
Silly Season
Great Occasion
1962
1965
1-g
7-f
Easy Date
Bay 1977
Grand Chaudiere
Scampering
1968
1970
19-b
20-a
Snow Finch
Bay 1984
Storm Bird
Bay 1978
Northern Dancer
South Ocean
1961
1967
2-d
4-j
A Realgirl
Bay 1976
In Reality
Secret Verdict
1964
1966
21-a
2-c
Subsequent
Bay 2008
Encosta de Lago
Bay 1993
Fairy King
Bay 1982
Northern Dancer
Bay 1961
Nearctic
Natalma
1954
1957
14-c
2-d
Fairy Bridge
Bay 1975
Bold Reason
Special
1968
1969
19-b
5-h
Shoal Creek
Chestnut 1988
Star Way
Chestnut 1977
Star Appeal
New Way
1970
1970
5-d
6-e
Rolls
Chestnut 1984
Mr Prospector
Grand Luxe
1970
1974
13-c
4-g
Sequin
Bay 1997
Lure
Bay 1989
Danzig
Bay 1977
Northern Dancer
Pas de Nom
1961
1968
2-d
7-a
Endear
Bay 1982
Alydar
Chappaquiddick
1975
1968
9-c
3-o
Subterfuge
Brown 1993
Machiavellian
Bay or brown 1987
Mr Prospector
Coup de Folie
1970
1982
13-c
2-d
Sandy Island
Bay 1981
Mill Reef
Sayonara
1968
1965
22-d
16-c
 Ancestor duplications:Northern Dancer5m,5m x 4m,5m Danzig4m x 4m Mr Prospectorx 5f,5m


STRIKE WHILST THE IRON IS HOT

reductio ad absurdum

The richest man is not he who has the most, but he who needs the least.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote furious Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Feb 2017 at 11:27am
As I'm talking about the next breed shaper probably won't be ND tribe djebel.  They shape the world now.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote Ticino Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Feb 2017 at 8:28pm
Hello,
Summer Passage, carries Danehill and Machiavelian (Sire of his third dam), both Sires are related,
Coup de Folie is 3x3 Almahmoud, who is the dam of Natalma, too. Btw, from the same damline as "Northwest Passage".
 
The dam sire Encosta de Lago, his damsire Star Way traces via Star Appeal, surprise, surprise to Dark Ronald, via Son-in-Law. The only other male Strain of Dark Ronald extended I know so far outside Germany. Btw, Magpie was a Dark Ronald son exported to Australia.
 
Maybe you give a try to the Bahram male stirp of Blandford in Fiorente (by Monsun). In Europe he and his sons are still very sought after as outcross of all the ND male lines.
 
Best regards, Ticino
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote furious Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Feb 2017 at 7:00am
You never know Ticino Fiorente had 198 foals from his first crops.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote .Swynford. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Mar 2017 at 5:29am
When a second pattern is present like this I think the double of Danehill is a huge PLUS

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Mar 2017 at 2:06pm
Originally posted by djebel djebel wrote:

Not quite inbreeding to Danehill but still - 

SUMMER PASSAGE (AUS)Bay colt 2014 
Snitzel
Bay 2002
Redoute's Choice
Bay 1996
Danehill
Bay 1986
Danzig
Bay 1977
Northern Dancer
Pas de Nom
1961
1968
2-d
7-a
Razyana
Bay 1981
His Majesty
Spring Adieu
1968
1974
4-d
2-d
Shantha's Choice
Bay 1992
Canny Lad
Brown 1987
Bletchingly
Jesmond Lass
1970
1975
7-a
14>
Dancing Show
Bay 1983
Nijinsky
Show Lady
1967
1976
8-f
8-f
Snippets' Lass
Bay 1993
Snippets
Bay 1984
Lunchtime
Chestnut 1970
Silly Season
Great Occasion
1962
1965
1-g
7-f
Easy Date
Bay 1977
Grand Chaudiere
Scampering
1968
1970
19-b
20-a
Snow Finch
Bay 1984
Storm Bird
Bay 1978
Northern Dancer
South Ocean
1961
1967
2-d
4-j
A Realgirl
Bay 1976
In Reality
Secret Verdict
1964
1966
21-a
2-c
Subsequent
Bay 2008
Encosta de Lago
Bay 1993
Fairy King
Bay 1982
Northern Dancer
Bay 1961
Nearctic
Natalma
1954
1957
14-c
2-d
Fairy Bridge
Bay 1975
Bold Reason
Special
1968
1969
19-b
5-h
Shoal Creek
Chestnut 1988
Star Way
Chestnut 1977
Star Appeal
New Way
1970
1970
5-d
6-e
Rolls
Chestnut 1984
Mr Prospector
Grand Luxe
1970
1974
13-c
4-g
Sequin
Bay 1997
Lure
Bay 1989
Danzig
Bay 1977
Northern Dancer
Pas de Nom
1961
1968
2-d
7-a
Endear
Bay 1982
Alydar
Chappaquiddick
1975
1968
9-c
3-o
Subterfuge
Brown 1993
Machiavellian
Bay or brown 1987
Mr Prospector
Coup de Folie
1970
1982
13-c
2-d
Sandy Island
Bay 1981
Mill Reef
Sayonara
1968
1965
22-d
16-c
 Ancestor duplications:Northern Dancer5m,5m x 4m,5m Danzig4m x 4m Mr Prospectorx 5f,5m


GROUP 1 WINNER.





STRIKE WHILST THE IRON IS HOT

reductio ad absurdum

The richest man is not he who has the most, but he who needs the least.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gay3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Mar 2017 at 3:05pm
No "not quite" about it, she's not inbred to Danehill Confused
Experience is something you gain a few minutes after you could have used it!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Mar 2017 at 3:15pm
No, But there are about 9 strains of Natalma.




STRIKE WHILST THE IRON IS HOT

reductio ad absurdum

The richest man is not he who has the most, but he who needs the least.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gay3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Mar 2017 at 3:39pm
Along with thousands of others LOL
Experience is something you gain a few minutes after you could have used it!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Mar 2017 at 3:50pm
When that colt retires to stud and serves mares inbred for Danehill the results will be dynamite. 


STRIKE WHILST THE IRON IS HOT

reductio ad absurdum

The richest man is not he who has the most, but he who needs the least.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote .Swynford. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Mar 2017 at 10:49am
A very nice looking horse,  they can be worth a lot of money,
I know its only 'in the bush' but is this the first winner by All Too Hard
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