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Has anyone had a horse with this?

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Dahlia View Drop Down
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    Posted: 17 Nov 2010 at 7:23pm
" border="">This horse went over to Adelaide last Christmas, perfectly healthy.  About Easter this year, he developed lumps under his jaw.  Dentist said it wasn't caused by teeth, he has had blood tests, biopsies, skin tests and nothing has come to light.  I am bringing him back to Victoria to see if it is an allergy to something in his current environment.  Will start him in a sand yard with just plain grass hay and if there is an improvement, start an elimination diet.  He doesn't have a temp, his gums are pink and healthy.  The only thing is his feet, from the rings around them, looks like something major happened about 9 months ago, which is when the lumps under his jaw appeared.
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jayzaa View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jayzaa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Nov 2010 at 8:43pm
I remember a pony of mine having that about 30 years ago. (showing my age)
From memory it was a little parasite that burrows under the skin and lays eggs. Can't for the life of me remember the treatment, could have been diesel or kero
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jayzaa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Nov 2010 at 8:45pm
he also appears to have a bit of a goiter, get some seaweed meal into him. start with a teaspoon and build it up to a tablespoon a couple of times a week
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dahlia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Nov 2010 at 10:56pm
I wondered if it was something like a sandfly bite but he is literally covered in those lumps.  The lumps under his jaw are huge and full of pus, I am worried about septacemia and secondary infections.  It's not strangles and it's not his teeth.  Maybe a drive to GV and a visit with Angus McKinnon, that is, if he survives the truck trip back to Vic!  Seaweed meal is a good idea, his immune system is shot.  The frustrating thing is that 2 vets have looked at him, both of whom you would think would be constructive but the first, our Olympic Team vet, just said "sell him" and the other from the Morphettville Vet Clinic had some bizarre theory that it was vestigial teeth breaking out through the skin!!  Go figure.  Can't wait to get the poor bugger home, he is a great horse, fabulous temperament and very talented.  I really hope it is something really simple like a grass or a weed over there that's causing it.  Look how puffy and sore his eyes are?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Marky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Nov 2010 at 11:05pm
Seen it before. Harmless tumors from overactive sebaceous cysts.
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Dahlia View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dahlia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Nov 2010 at 11:16pm
what he has under his jaw aren't overactive sebaceous cysts, frustrating that I can't upload the photo.  It's like he's had a cold or a virus and because he hasn't recovered, the lymph glands have got infected and maybe because he is so run down, he's picked up something else causing the skin lumps.  His eyes are so sore and puffy, he is miserable and grumpy. Just want to get him home.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sadlers wells Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Nov 2010 at 6:33am
ring Vivtoria fergason of Herbal Horse and send her the photos,it is worth a call i have had success with her when vets have failed.Apart from the jaw it looks like bites,tuff rock poltice works well on drawing out inflamation.On the herb note i have a dog with epelepsy whose numerous meds were damaging her liver to the point of being critical put her on milk thistle and a combination of others after 2 weeks marked iimprovemant after 8 weeks her bloods have come back nearly normal.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote v and m Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Nov 2010 at 7:44am
we had a horse that when we wormed him she got spots in her eyes and the first vet said she had an infection and gave meds but it didn't go away then rang another one and for free said it was just dead worm eggs coming to the surface in this case the eyes which might be cousing problems with your horse's eyes except they might not be dead.
And my mare at stud has also had lumps like that over a year ago same as on your horse's neck  just not as bad and the stud manager said he would treat her - can't remember what with but I think Jayzaa's suggestion of kero sounds familar though not advised until you know what it is - because it was a parasite that wasn't harmful as long as you don't let it go too far, she doesn't have them anymore but no idea what it was.
 
I've also heard of something called Onchocerca or Neck Threadworm that has the same problems your horse is showing, look here for info: http://www.brunswickvet.com.au/Templates/StoryTemplate_Process.cfm?Story_No=1291&specie=6#ct-3
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gay3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Nov 2010 at 8:01am

Process of elimination................hmmmmmm.................... You don't mention if he's had antihistamine treatment or cortisone for that matter.

Worms could have this effect & the most effective t/ment is an Ivermectin based one.

Skin rash affecting the whole system in which case I've had great success with Amway Hosp. strenth disinfectant but I need some more & now find it's gone off the Oz list but still available in the U.S. I can't remeber the damned components tho' Angry.

I've just finished using a product called Itz Magic, for the 1st time, on a dry cough, causing elevated white cells/lymphs. etc which wouldn't respond to heavy dosed courses of Trivetrin or Engemycin. Only 7 days later on this stuff, cells were back to 7.6 having been on 10.5.

I'd never heard of it before but the testimonials were impressive & it's been around for many years so here's the link:  http://itzmagic.co.nz/

Experience is something you gain a few minutes after you could have used it!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Run For Fun Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Nov 2010 at 8:25am
Where did you purchase the Itz Magic product please Gay?
 
The link only seems to open NZ ordering.
It's hard to soar with eagles...

Cheers
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gay3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Nov 2010 at 9:42am
Yes, I forgot, there's no direct outlet here tho' I don't understand why!! I was put onto it by Doug at http://ambrosiastud.com/. They are telesellers whose vet. products are incredibly cheap & who enabled Kalkara Kid (2nd, 1st ever start at 7yo @ B/rat!) to race twice after 5 yrs of chronic tying up. Very knowledgeable crowd & tho' the business is in Q/land, orders are sent immediately. Itz Magic is about $90 GST inc. for a L bottle & I nowhere near finished mine. Very palatable too & they don't need to entirely rest whilst on it, just no stress work (trot/canter relaxed). Hope that helps.
Experience is something you gain a few minutes after you could have used it!
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Thumbs Up

It's hard to soar with eagles...

Cheers
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dahlia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Nov 2010 at 10:30am
He has been on courses of Preddy Granules, which help, and when the lumps under the jaw get really bad, penicillin but although the various lumps and bumps improve, they don't clear up and disappear altogether.  He is wormed regularly too.  Victoria Ferguson prescribed a herbal mixture and a feed regime, which we tried but no improvement whatsoever.  Now she has sold the business, I might speak to Anita who bought it, found Victoria horrible to deal with, nasty and aggressive with that "everyone's an idiot but me" attitude.

Some good suggestions, like the Itz Magic, but can't do much until he gets back, hopefully he will be on a truck tomorrow.  On a completely different tack, just discovered Xolento and I share stalkbook friends in common.  Yikes.  It is a fishbowl world.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sadlers wells Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Nov 2010 at 1:35pm
Yes that sounds like her,very blunt lady.One of my horses recently came home with the same looking lumps on one side,applied quititch thinking bacteria didnt work,remembered the Tuff Rock Poulticenwich i had used on a horse that reacted to ant bites,within 3 days completely gone,can also be used over the loins and rump as a detox
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dahlia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Nov 2010 at 5:02pm
The photo series showing the recovery of the star picket wound is remarkable.  Do you order direct from them or can you buy it in saddleries, produce stores etc?  It would be good to take the horse up there and submerge him in a big vat of the stuff Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote take2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Nov 2010 at 5:23pm
i had one that developed those bumps a couple of years ago, and it was every time he was ready to race, when his coat was good, they just got less of a problem evry time they appeared, although i dont recall them looking as bad as those ones dahlia
dont put mouth in gear before engaging brain

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote take2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Nov 2010 at 5:27pm
if he has had a rug on, that could explain the large hairless bumps, but not the bumps
dont put mouth in gear before engaging brain

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote On The Range Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Nov 2010 at 11:03am

As mentioned here, the lumps under the jaw look like goitre and is caused by an iodine deficiency and by some species of weeds. Daily feeding a tablespoon full of iodised salt with feed will help correct this, as will removing them from the affected pasture. Google “goitre” to find out more.

 

The skin lesions look very much like ringworm, a very common nasty little, super contagious bug that boasts over 30 different looking species, often called Newmarket itch, or mistaken as heat rash etc. It is transferred by gear, or on riders boots, gloves etc.

 

There are many old fashioned remedies to treat this, but most fail dismally. THE most effective treatment I’ve used is a fungicidal wash called ”Ivamerol”. Expensive, but will totally kill the bug with just 2 treatments. You also need to treat the horses gear/rug etc and be careful not to pass it on to other horses and not to catch it yourself. Watch your kids too, their soft skin makes them very vulnerable. Pharmacy ringworm treatments (for people) will be effective here.

 

Once I had the not so much fun job of treating a 20 horse stable for ringworm. Persevered with the trainer’s old fashioned remedies for 2 weeks only to watch it spread rapidly, even iodine scrubs failed. So after much badgering he bought Ivamoral and after the first treatment it cleared most of the infection up within a week.

 

Even if you don’t think it is ringworm, I suggest you give it a try as it won’t hurt if you do.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote On The Range Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Nov 2010 at 1:40pm

Forgot to add a treatment for the eyes. This kind of weeping (with the absence of nasal discharge) is common as a reaction to flies, dust, pollen etc. and should be treated to prevent the irritation causing an eye ulcer. I’ve found an antibiotic eye ointment called Orbenin (or similar family) excellent. Get it from your vet and a few days treatment will clear up the weeping.

                          

Your horse is probably hyperallergenic, meaning he is hypersensitive and has a very high or excessive reaction to allergens. I have one at the moment and he reacts to just about everything, so I’m careful about what I feed him, his shampoo, his gear, rugs etc. He always wears a full fly mask and has cream in his big googly eyes whenever they start to weep. It’s a total pain but necessary to keep him happy and healthy.

 

P.S Kerosene is an old fashioned remedy for treating lice (not ringworm), but be careful and use only a small amount as it will burn them and lift the skin. A safer treatment for lice is a “Malathion” rinse - like a pet flea rinse, or a few close applications of “Pestene” powder, mostly used for dusting birds and poultry, but really great for horses out in the paddock as you don’t have to bring them in for a wash.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote On The Range Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Nov 2010 at 1:50pm

Oh yeah also forgot to mention that ringworm is usually detected under an ultra-violet light because they are fluorescent.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VEEEIGHT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Nov 2010 at 7:50pm
Originally posted by jayzaa jayzaa wrote:

he also appears to have a bit of a goiter, get some seaweed meal into him. start with a teaspoon and build it up to a tablespoon a couple of times a week
Goitre can also be caused by excess iodine in the diet.
It is preferable to provide a broad spectrum vitamin mineral supplement that contains iodine rather then seaweed.
Iodised table salt could also be used.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jayzaa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Nov 2010 at 8:09pm
veeeight, I don't want to tread on your toes, but iodised salt is ok for humans, seaweed meal is better for horses. lots of other trace minerals as well
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jess Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Nov 2010 at 8:40pm
Really intereresting thread,   the Kerosene  bit  reminded me of a horrible site  i saw where someone  had not been as careful as they should and this poor  Horse had chewed the flesh out of his leg  in  scoops looking for relief before the  vet could arrive.   Horrible site
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VEEEIGHT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Nov 2010 at 8:56pm

I dont know of any equine nutritionists who recommend using seaweed in the horses diet unless they are of the Pat colby following.

 Iodised salt is perfect for horses provided the levels of iodine are not already excessive.
The requirement for iodine for most classes of horses is .35mg/kg diet of dry matter  and a slight increase to .4 mgs/kg diet dry matter for mares in their third trimester.
Toxicity occurs at levels higher then 10 mg/100kgs body weight ie 50mgs/500kg horse.
Iodised salt contains 1.4 mgs/20gms, wheras kelp can contain levels as high as 30mgs/15gms.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dahlia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Nov 2010 at 11:45am
What about those lumps of rock salt, VEEEIGHT?  I was given some Himalayan rock salt lumps to try out and my horses gnaw and lick away happily.  I was surprised as electrolytes (HiForm) are added to the feeds of the horses in work.  Also, if the lumps are ringworm, wouldn't every other horse on the property have it?  I will definitely try the wash though.  He has been stabled for the last week and his eyes have cleared up and the lumps have gone right down so it has to be an environment thing.  As for the lumps under the jaw, I will get GVEH to do a full set of bloods and biopsy and hope there's an answer.  He is being picked up tomorrow morning so hopefully, will have him back on Friday.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote On The Range Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Nov 2010 at 12:28pm

Dahlia, I think V8 will probably tell it’s the IODISED salt that you need.

 

Questions: Does he have the skin lesions/lumps all over the body or just on the neck and head?

And how long has he had them for?

 

Some of the lesions look old and healed but the lumps that haven’t scabbed yet are possibly still active. If it is ringworm, left untreated it will continue to spread over the body.

 

With ringworm, it depends on the stages of shedding and how much contact your horse and/or his gear has with the other horses. The gear is the big factor because the infected shedding skin/hair that remains on the gear infects the next horse it is used on, when he sweats and the pores of the skin are open. For a horse to directly infect another they would need to have constant and close contact. If your horse has been in a paddock on his own and not being handled or ridden, then he is less likely to infect others.

 

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gay3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Nov 2010 at 12:50pm

Originally posted by jayzaa jayzaa wrote:

veeeight, I don't want to tread on your toes, but iodised salt is ok for humans, seaweed meal is better for horses. lots of other trace minerals as well

I remembered there'd been a thread on iodine & seaweed a while ago. Managed to find it. The post is from an equine nutritionist  http://balancedequine.com.au/


"Some people feed seaweed meal as a source of iodine but this is a concern if the manufacturer cannot guarantee the amount of iodine in the product.  Iodine toxicity in horses is usually the result of feeding high iodine kelps.  The NRC uses an upper safe limit for iodine of 50 mg/day for a 500 kg horse (5 mg/kg of diet), but toxicities have been reported at intakes as low as 40 mg/day.  If you wish to use seaweed meal, ask the manufacturer for a nutrient analysis.  If they will not supply an end product nutrient analysis then avoid as horses do get sick from excessive iodine.

To give you an example - a 450 kg horse requires 3.2 mg iodine per day.

All of the manufacturers I've looked at seem to be recommending a dosage that is far too high."


And the full thread on Yahoo Mythbusters:

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/mythbustersnaturalhorsecare/message/1490


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sadlers wells Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Nov 2010 at 4:24pm
just found itzmagic at Pakenham produce if anyone interested
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gay3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Nov 2010 at 5:37pm
How much? Just out of interest. I got it for about $90 posted.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mr Prospector Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Nov 2010 at 5:54pm
What is the active ingredient in the iztmagic Gay ? I've seen some talk recently about coloidal silver products for immune system benifits .
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