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Sioux Nation

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Red Hare View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Red Hare Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Sioux Nation
    Posted: 20 Mar 2019 at 1:12pm
Ex-Coolmore racehorse, standing this season at Swettenham. $16,000+GST.

Big, strong lump of a lad. He's a decendant of Gay Hostess, his first four dams are sired by Oasis Dream, Bluebird, Nonoalco & Raise A Native. 

Should be plenty for the market to work with? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Red Hare Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar 2019 at 11:20pm
Ex-Coolmore racehorse, current Coolmore Ireland sire.
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Second Chance View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Second Chance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Mar 2019 at 7:54pm
A NH 2nd tier sprinter.

Not for me thanks, but many might disagree.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Glencoe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Mar 2019 at 9:24pm
And what was I am Invincible & Invincible Spirit?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Glencoe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Mar 2019 at 9:26pm
two positives for Sioux Nation        pedigree structure & his preference for firm tracks
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Second Chance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Mar 2019 at 8:13am
Since when did the very occasional exception disprove the general rule?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Paul Hogan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Mar 2019 at 8:59am
I did not mind No Nay Never who stands at Coolmore Australia however I just don’t think he has what it takes to make it big in Australia.

If No Nay Never is a questions mark this guy is a no.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Paul Hogan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Mar 2019 at 9:01am
Originally posted by Second Chance Second Chance wrote:

Since when did the very occasional exception disprove the general rule?


Correct.

You would not want to base your breeding business on the above. Commands might of been the last horse to do an I am Invincible and that was a while ago.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Mar 2019 at 10:46am
SIOUX NATION (USA)Bay colt 2015 
Scat Daddy
Bay or brown 2004
Johannesburg
Bay 1999
Hennessy
Chestnut 1993
Storm Cat
Bay or brown 1983
Storm Bird
Terlingua
1978
1976
4-j
8-c
Island Kitty
Chestnut 1976
Hawaii
T C Kitten
1964
1969
1-l
8-c
Myth
Bay 1993
Ogygian
Bay 1983
Damascus
Gonfalon
1964
1975
8-h
16-a
Yarn
Bay or brown 1987
Mr Prospector
Narrate
1970
1980
13-c
2-f
Love Style
Chestnut 1999
Mr Prospector
Bay 1970
Raise a Native
Chestnut 1961
Native Dancer
Raise You
1950
1946
5-f
8-f
Gold Digger
Bay 1962
Nashua
Sequence
1952
1946
3-m
13-c
Likeable Style
Bay 1990
Nijinsky
Bay 1967
Northern Dancer
Flaming Page
1961
1959
2-d
8-f
Personable Lady
Bay 1981
No Robbery
Porthole
1960
1971
19-b
1-w
Dream the Blues
Bay 2008
Oasis Dream
Bay 2000
Green Desert
Bay 1983
Danzig
Bay 1977
Northern Dancer
Pas de Nom
1961
1968
2-d
7-a
Foreign Courier
Bay 1979
Sir Ivor
Courtly Dee
1965
1968
8-g
A4
Hope
Bay 1991
Dancing Brave
Bay 1983
Lyphard
Navajo Princess
1969
1974
17-b
3-d
Bahamian
Chestnut 1985
Mill Reef
Sorbus
1968
1975
22-d
19>
Catch the Blues
Bay 1992
Bluebird
Bay 1984
Storm Bird
Bay 1978
Northern Dancer
South Ocean
1961
1967
2-d
4-j
Ivory Dawn
Bay 1978
Sir Ivor
Dusky Evening
1965
1967
8-g
9-b
Dear Lorraine
Bay 1980
Nonoalco
Bay 1971
Nearctic
Seximee
1954
1966
14-c
2-s
Native Loraine
Chestnut 1974
Raise a Native
Betty Loraine
1961
1965
8-f
4-d
 Ancestor duplications:Storm Bird5m x 4m Mr Prospector5f,3f x Raise a Native4m x 5f 
  Northern Dancer5m x 5m,5m Sir Ivorx 5f,5f
reductio ad absurdum
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Red Hare Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Mar 2019 at 3:17pm
Originally posted by Second Chance Second Chance wrote:

A NH 2nd tier sprinter.

Not for me thanks, but many might disagree.
Early 2yo, retired at the end of his 3yo campaign... he ran in all the top tier 3yo races, he just didn't win.

Agree wholeheartedly that the market shouldn't pay for the unknown, and $16k needs a special first couple of crops from No Nay Never to sell for $50k+.... but his female line looks 'right' for Aus breeders. 

If you're taking a punt as a stud farm, then you would want to be operating in the deepest pool. In Victoria, that means you're hoping he clicks with the likes of Magnus, RFE, Street Boss and Bel Esprit. There would be some glimmers of hope for the last three, at least.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote brogers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Mar 2019 at 3:57am
Originally posted by Paul Hogan Paul Hogan wrote:

Originally posted by Second Chance Second Chance wrote:

Since when did the very occasional exception disprove the general rule?


Correct.

You would not want to base your breeding business on the above. Commands might of been the last horse to do an I am Invincible and that was a while ago.

Written Tycoon? Not a Single Doubt? Hinchinbrook?

People were bagging Snitzel as being a suspect G1 winner when he retired to stud.
Abel Tasman...Keen Ice...Divisidero....Verrazano...Catchy...Carrick...Ivictory...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Second Chance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Mar 2019 at 7:33am
I repeat, since when did the very occasional exception disprove the general rule?

And remember we're talking about a British-performed second tier sprinting horse.  I invite anyone to name the list of roaring Australian successes from that generic over the last 20 years or more.  For every relative success I'll give you plenty of failures.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote furious Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Mar 2019 at 8:08am
Brogers you are comparing the second string Australian sprinter to the second string European sprinter.  Two different things.  Not a Single Doubt - Snippets and his sire going gang busters.  Hinchinbrook - likewise Snitzel and sire going gang busters.  Written Tycoon - different story.  Two year old speed leading up to the slipper is cut throat - he had that.  But if you check the fields racing today.  Two Australasian female lines have more representatives than all the rest.  Juliet wins but Manto (Written Tycoon's tail female) is the second more represented.  Class shines through.

This boy may or may not make it.  I'm fully aware of that.  But from overseas only the top tier sprinter - winner of the Dewhurst or Middle Park - will really warrant the attention of the big players any more.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote acacia alba Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Mar 2019 at 9:39am
Scat Daddy puts me right off .  Cant warm to him for Australian conditions , among other things.  But what would I know. Embarrassed  No pedigree expert me.  Watch him come out and do well now I bag him.LOL
animals before people.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Red Hare Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Mar 2019 at 1:12pm
A wee bit patriotic to suggest that the Euros aren't in the conversation for 'best sprinter' over the last five years.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Glencoe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Mar 2019 at 4:01pm
In trying to be objective I'd say he is one shuttler who is a real chance
Others like Equiano, Dream Ahead,& Canford Cliffs were from sirelines that lacked compatible lines here & without naming names( but they are obvious) many shuttlers are the wrong physical type
This bloke has Phsyique, Precocity, Enough class, & pedigree compatibility. Moreso than many other s before him
He has more than enough in his favour to be a very worthwhile option for breeders
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Paul Hogan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Mar 2019 at 4:57pm
Originally posted by brogers brogers wrote:

Originally posted by Paul Hogan Paul Hogan wrote:

Originally posted by Second Chance Second Chance wrote:

Since when did the very occasional exception disprove the general rule?


Correct.

You would not want to base your breeding business on the above. Commands might of been the last horse to do an I am Invincible and that was a while ago.


Written Tycoon? Not a Single Doubt? Hinchinbrook?

People were bagging Snitzel as being a suspect G1 winner when he retired to stud.


Scatt Daddy had a good progeny racing record over here but he is know where near his Daddy.

Take your point about the list of horses above however Danehill bloodlines, Redoubtes Choice, Fastnet Rock and Commands have been superior lines in Australia.

No Nay Never is a punters hope of making it but not this bloke.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Second Chance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Mar 2019 at 5:13pm
Originally posted by brogers brogers wrote:

  People were bagging Snitzel as being a suspect G1 winner when he retired to stud.

Apparently not the owners of the 130-odd mares that visited him at $33k a pop which was a fair ask  thirteen years ago for a first season stallion.

Probably because he'd won 6 stakes races, four at Gp level up to Gp 1. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Glencoe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Mar 2019 at 10:49pm
I know personally of many prominent breeders who missed the Snitzel boat because of that doubt and also because of his physique.
Will he be a sire of sires? Still to be decided but if he is the vets will be happy.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote acacia alba Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Mar 2019 at 8:14am
Anyone know what his legs are like ?
animals before people.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gay3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Mar 2019 at 8:37am
I understand Tassie secured Needs Further because the mainland studs had doubts over his front legs conformation.
Wisdom has been chasing me but I've always outrun it!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Second Chance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Mar 2019 at 9:08am
Walked a bit like Charlie Chaplin.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Paul Hogan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Mar 2019 at 9:34am
Let not get too carried away with Needs Further either.

per starters 43.9% is quite poor.

He has got a good one, big deal doesn't mean he will make it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Red Hare Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Mar 2019 at 9:52am
Needs Further got a good one, from limited tries, in arguably the biggest pool of broodmares in Au/NZ - just when it was looking like the Klairessa/Eight Carat gold mine had run dry. He's even got full, half & 3/4 siblings to the good one that look like they're going to earn a keep.

Load them up again, with low enough overheads to sell for $30k and still make bank. How is that not great for business?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Paul Hogan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Mar 2019 at 4:50pm
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