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Black Caviar vs Winx at 1400m |
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withme
Yearling Joined: 06 Feb 2014 Status: Offline Points: 153 |
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Posted: 13 Feb 2017 at 4:27pm |
I know she only raced once at the distance , but she is BC, so given the way Winx won the Apollo today would BC have beaten her today
Edited by Gay3 - 01 Sep 2017 at 12:39pm |
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subastral
Champion Joined: 28 Jul 2011 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 34887 |
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Yes.
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Speediskey
Champion Joined: 18 Feb 2014 Status: Offline Points: 4116 |
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Easily.
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Heavenly Glow
Champion Joined: 24 Aug 2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 1569 |
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Winx hard held. In racing there is levels. Even at 1400m Winx would have not a problem.
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the miz
Champion Joined: 29 Dec 2014 Location: NSW Status: Offline Points: 1128 |
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Yes
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the miz
v'landwick the king of spin |
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WarriSymbol
Champion Joined: 03 Apr 2010 Status: Offline Points: 3169 |
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Yes
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brett68
Yearling Joined: 11 Apr 2012 Status: Offline Points: 154 |
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depends who else is in the race
a few front runners putting some speed on making it a proper 1400 and I'd go with Winx loved BC but the 1400 she won was a 1000m jog then sprint home
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tillyras
Champion Joined: 11 Oct 2012 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 7540 |
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What is with these stupid threads? Mods can you ban this troll from creating stupid threads
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Lordy
Champion Joined: 22 May 2010 Location: Sunshine State Status: Offline Points: 13887 |
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Waiting for the Winx vs Frankel thread next
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Gay3
Moderator Group Joined: 19 Feb 2007 Location: Miners Rest Status: Offline Points: 52021 |
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I agree, there's a perfectly good Winx thread in which the question can be asked & highly likely there's aleady a similar one in the pages worth of Winx & BC threads |
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Wisdom has been chasing me but I've always outrun it!
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Gay3
Moderator Group Joined: 19 Feb 2007 Location: Miners Rest Status: Offline Points: 52021 |
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Interesting comparison between the 2 using a gif which won't reproduce here. To view, use the link:
http://abc.net.au/news/2017-09-01/winx-unorthodox-sprinter-taking-everything-in-stride/8858860 Winx — what makes her so fast? It's not the size of her stride, it's the rate she can put it downEvery minute Winx is in full motion she takes 170 strides. That's 30 more than the average racehorse, with each one about seven metres in length. It's an unusual formula for a champion sprinter, especially when compared to the sport's greats like Black Caviar and Phar Lap, each with a stride length close to 8.5m. "Many think the horse with a bigger stride will always win," said Dr Graeme Putt, a University of Auckland academic who has studied the science of racehorse success. But Winx is turning conventional wisdom on its head. As the champion mare eyes a 19th consecutive win at Royal Randwick this weekend, she has already eclipsed Phar Lap's record of 14 on the trot and is closing in on Black Caviar's all-time mark of 25. And the secret to her success is all in a freakish stride rate, which can increase in the dying stages of a race as other horses taper off. GIF:
Winx and Black Caviar's strides side by side
As her fatigued rivals push to maintain 12 footfalls every five seconds, Winx can up the pace to 14. "This means she can settle or accelerate at any time during a race. I think this makes her unique." Dr Putt has published research on both Phar Lap and Black Caviar, examining the mechanics of their winning strides with scientific precision. Black Caviar the Usain Bolt of the racing world
Photo:
Black Caviar's huge stride helped her cover ground in classic sprint mode. (AAP: David Crosling)
Black Caviar was known for her acceleration and instantaneous speed, making her "both massive and the fleetest of sprinters in the equine world," according to Dr Putt. At the peak of her career before retiring in April 2013, Black Caviar's size gave her a stride a full metre-and-a-half longer than Winx. Similar mechanics drive the success of Olympic gold medallist Usain Bolt in the 100m and 200m sprints, according to Dr Putt.
"He had the larger stride length by about 5 per cent, but that alone did not cause him to win. "He won because he was able to maintain the same — or maybe only 2-3 per cent less — stride frequency as the losers." Winx's last win took her career earnings over the $13 million barrier, closing in on Makybe Diva's all-time prizemoney record of $14.52 million.
Photo:
Winx has a shorter stride, but she still distanced her Cox Plate rivals in 2016. (AAP: Joe Castro)
Equine exercise physiologist Dr David Evans said a champion horse like Winx has several other key qualities which set her apart from her rivals.
"She has to be built with the right muscle structure, she has to have the right amount of muscle relative to her body weight and she has to have the right type of muscle fibres. "So not all muscle fibres are the same and she has to have the right mix of muscle fibres to enable her to sprint." But those looking to spot a champion racehorse in the making may find it is very difficult to pick these qualities by sight in a foal. "Back in the '80s there was enthusiasm for taking a biopsy and testing a small amount of muscle, but that didn't go anywhere because you're taking a couple of grams of muscle from a 500-kilogram horse. "So you can't predict their sprinting ability from a tiny sample of muscle like that. "Basically the best way to see what they can do is take them to a racetrack and test them over 400 and 600 metres and see what they can do." Winx's ability to turn on speed at will was perhaps never more evident than at her last run in the Warwick Stakes, where she missed the start by five lengths but managed to pull off a dramatic comeback to clinch victory. Winx caught the lead horse in the shadow of the post to win by barely a nostril in her final stride. The performance has already drawn comparisons with Phar Lap's legendary comeback in the 1931 Futurity Stakes at Caulfield. "Both Phar Lap and Winx were left flat-footed at the start and trailed off by about five lengths," Dr Putt recalls. "Phar Lap's was probably more sensational because he raced hard to catch up and passed some of the tailenders only to get pocketed by other riders. "His jockey Jim Pike had to drop him back to get out of the pocket so he could come around wide and close on the leaders. "Phar Lap actually got to the front by about a half-length before the finish line but then had to hold off the others as he fatigued." But even having studied the sport's greatest racehorses, Dr Putt had to concede: "In some ways Winx's win would have been more breathtaking for observers at the course because it was only in the last stride that she won," he said. |
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Wisdom has been chasing me but I've always outrun it!
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max manewer
Champion Joined: 30 Jan 2010 Status: Offline Points: 32947 |
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The size of these animal's hearts would be interesting to know, it seems more than a co-incidence that many great horses have large hearts, probably the most notable, Secretariat. Should be an easy thing to find out, with modern ultrasound equipment.
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Einstein
Champion Joined: 21 Dec 2015 Status: Offline Points: 1290 |
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Winx would blitz BC for me. Yes BC has the bigger stride, but that doesn't always mean she would win. The rate at which winx can put down is far superior and she would get to the front. I also think she has a bigger will to win, and knows exactly where the finish line is.
However over 1000m, BC would win.
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Isaac soloman
Champion Joined: 13 Oct 2015 Status: Offline Points: 6085 |
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oh thats interesting; i had posted this in the Winx thread....so there weren't multiple winx threads created.
just saying.
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Gay3
Moderator Group Joined: 19 Feb 2007 Location: Miners Rest Status: Offline Points: 52021 |
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I thought this a tad more interesting than much of the info posted so I tried to find somewhere easier to remember than which page in which Winx thread
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Wisdom has been chasing me but I've always outrun it!
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Gay3
Moderator Group Joined: 19 Feb 2007 Location: Miners Rest Status: Offline Points: 52021 |
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Heart size tho' helpful, has proven inconclusive & certainly no guarantee on its' own, after much testing & yes, it is easy to do |
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Wisdom has been chasing me but I've always outrun it!
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max manewer
Champion Joined: 30 Jan 2010 Status: Offline Points: 32947 |
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I guess if they don't have the metaphorical heart to want to run, and run through a little pain, the big motor won't help. But it is hard not to think it was a "big" part of the Secretariat story of blistering sustained pace.
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Baguette
Champion Joined: 18 Dec 2012 Status: Offline Points: 3651 |
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To me what makes a champion horse is that wonderful characteristic of always trying for you. Always willing to burst their heart because the person on their back asks them if that doesn't sound too poetic and soppy.
Lots of horses have the physical ability to run very fast but lack this rare characteristic. Others have great willingness to please but not the physical ability. To get both in one individual is pretty rare IMO |
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Gee Gee
Champion Joined: 31 Aug 2009 Status: Offline Points: 8300 |
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bc
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maccamax
Champion Joined: 18 Jun 2010 Status: Offline Points: 41473 |
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BC every time . to 1400.
I would suggest Winx is stayer ,needs at least 1600 minimum to be risk free. Better at 2000m and probably to 3200m. Comparing A Sprinter and a Stayer , Simple. Look at Buffering's record without BC. |
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Jamal
Champion Joined: 25 Jul 2011 Status: Offline Points: 8684 |
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Would Winx be too brilliant at 3200m?
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Australian racing is only good up to 1400m in terms of world standards when it comes to depth/quality in numbers
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djebel
Premium Joined: 07 Mar 2007 Status: Offline Points: 53960 |
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It would be a nice test. She races in a relaxed manner so she'd give herself a chance. |
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reductio ad absurdum
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Jamal
Champion Joined: 25 Jul 2011 Status: Offline Points: 8684 |
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Saintly was seen as too brilliant for 3200m but he ran it right out in 1996 to win the Cup.
Might And Power managed to hang on in the 1997 Cup. So You Think ran 3rd in the 2010 Cup. Winx.....the question is would she have enough in the tank at about the 2800m mark? Would be a great test. I reckon she could place in a Melbourne Cup.....as for winning.....not sure. |
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furious
Champion Joined: 19 Feb 2007 Status: Offline Points: 25179 |
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Black Caviar was a big bold sprinter and built for it. Winx is a angular middle distance stayer and built for it. So different types who can meet at that 1400m range but if there is a superior stayer around that is the one that usually wins. Yes we harp back to Kingston Town and Winx setting up a similar record but Kingstone Town never had to race Manikato the Black Caviar of his day. They picked the right 1000m sprints to bring him up to scratch and only blocked pockets had him miss a win over the sprints.
So I'll continue to admire both Black Caviar and Winx and not bother to try to compare them. After all there are apples and oranges that are both fruit but not the same.
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brogers
Champion Joined: 20 Feb 2007 Location: Lexington, KY Status: Offline Points: 1106 |
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That's a bit of a misnomer. Large hearts, as defined by their left ventricle size and stroke volume, arent necessarily desirable in different types horses. They work well in long distance horses, especially big colts, but a large heart in a small filly is meaningless. The heart is a muscle, so you need to get it fit. If you put a large heart in a small filly you'd probably break it down before the heart and rest of the horse was fit as you'd be working it very hard. Think about it like a motor in a car. You want a big engine in a big car, and a small engine in a small car. The efficient one, relative to is size, is the best.
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Abel Tasman...Keen Ice...Divisidero....Verrazano...Catchy...Carrick...Ivictory...
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max manewer
Champion Joined: 30 Jan 2010 Status: Offline Points: 32947 |
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Think about it any way you like, but was Secretariat's heart not the biggest (or near to) ever observed in a racehorse ?
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djebel
Premium Joined: 07 Mar 2007 Status: Offline Points: 53960 |
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Nolen's 'Front Row' View Of The Winx And Caviar Legends
As a spectator, Black Caviar’s jockey Luke Nolen is in awe of what Winx has been able to achieve. Luke Nolen on board Black Caviar as she heads out for what was her 25th straight win at Randwick in 2013. (Pic: Bradley Photos) And, as someone who knows what the ride is like on a national racing idol, Nolen is well versed in the expectation in the air as Winx aims to surpass Black Caviar’s winning streak at Royal Randwick on Saturday. Five years and one day after Black Caviar’s 25th consecutive win, when she took her second TJ Smith Stakes in 2013, Winx matched the feat as she won the Queen Elizabeth Stakes also for a second time. It’s almost poetic then that on Black Caviar’s 12th birthday – she was foaled on August 18 in 2006 – the world will be willing Winx to make it a record 26 straight in the race named in her honour, the Group 1 $500,000 Winx Stakes (1400m). “It’s quite unbelievable these horses being so close to each other in the history of racing,’’ Nolen said. “As spectators we’ve all been very spoiled. “I didn’t think I’d see another horse win 25 straight but lo and behold. Black Caviar is her own story, though. She was unbeaten so they are removed slightly from one another.’’ Winx is racing’s record breaker. Not only is she rated the best horse in the world, she’s chasing a remarkable 19th Group 1 and her prizemoney is about to tick over the $19 million mark. As it happens Nolen not only had the best seat in the house on Black Caviar, he had front row seats to the moment the Winx legend was born. And on reflection of the day’s events he’s certain it was the moment. It was the start of the streak. The Sunshine Coast Guineas in 2015. It reminded him of watching the moment he felt Black Caviar stamped herself as something exceptional when she blew the start, raced wide and put six lengths on some smart three-year-olds in the Listed Blue Sapphire at Caulfield in 2009. “I’ve only ridden against Winx twice and I gave Ulmann a very good ride in the Sunshine Coast Guineas when she started the sequence,’’ Nolen said. “It was only when I saw the replay I thought ‘how the … did she beat me' from the corner. She went that quick Larry Cassidy (on Winx) nearly ran up the back of them on straightening. “For me, you marry up Black Caviar’s second win with Winx’s first win of her unbeaten sequence and they are both unbelievable efforts. “Going back through their careers they were the moments where it all dawned. Good horses probably would have been beaten but great horses didn’t.’’ We all wonder what makes champions so great. Obviously they are faster but there’s not always something in their stature that stands them out. Nolen feels there’s significant difference in appearance between Black Caviar and Winx but what can’t be disputed is what’s under the hood of both thoroughbreds. “Black Caviar took a very big stride and she had explosive acceleration, but she looked like a stallion,’’ Nolen said. “Winx looks more feminine in comparison. She’s not particularly overbearing and a big athlete so she must have a very big heart. “But they are both world champion mares and probably the best two mares we’ve seen grace this country.’’ Nolen’s life has changed quite a bit since Black Caviar retired and her trainer Peter Moody left the training ranks. He’s not attached to a big stable and, like a lot of jockeys, is again on the lookout for that special horse to take him to the big races in the spring. While he was never comfortable in the spotlight, a bit like Hugh Bowman he learned to handle himself as best he could. He says the job Moody did with Black Caviar and how Chris Waller is guiding Winx should not be underestimated. Not only do they have the pressure they put on themselves to get it right they have the eyes of the nation, and the world, watching them. Winx will break Black Caviar's consecutive win record if she makes it 26 straight at Randwick on Saturday. (Pic: Steve Hart). And because they are both champion mares that’s another variable to try and control. “Mares are finicky, and they don’t show up sometimes,’’ he said. “For Chris to get her to show up and keep her in good sound mind 25 times straight, and for Peter to do what he did, is unheard of. “Mares can have a real purple patch of form and they may never revisit it. It’s freakish that these two mares have been able to have these sequences of wins.’’ By the time the Winx Stakes is run both Waller and Bowman will have talked Winx just about all week. Nolen knows the world wants to know everything about its racing idol and just wishes he’d been a bit better placed to deal with the constant interest in Black Caviar. But he wouldn’t take a moment of it back and there’s no doubt Waller and Bowman feel the same. “You do run out of things to say about them and Peter and myself weren’t wordsmiths either,’’ Nolen said. “You say the same thing slightly differently 100 different times when you get interviewed – it’s a shame a Rhodes scholar didn’t ride her or train her. We would have had better one liners.’’ Check out the fields, form and replays for Saturday's Winx Stakes meeting at Royal Randwick |
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reductio ad absurdum
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maccamax
Champion Joined: 18 Jun 2010 Status: Offline Points: 41473 |
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STOOPID comparison.
Both true Champions in their distance range. Equal ratings. BUT , One a Sprinting Freak ,the other a Middle Distance Freak. Both ridden by riders who seem to sleep on duty at times. |
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