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Frankel

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diomed View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote diomed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jul 2023 at 9:03pm
Many Group 1, 2, 3 mares visited Frankel (at stud 11 years).

These are the top races by the mares who bred winners with a racing Post rating (RPR) of 120+ to Frankel, shown in descending RPR order of the best Frankel winners.


Mare racing record
  • Listed winner
  • Listed winner
  • Group 3 winner
  • Listed winner
  • Listed winner
  • Unraced
  • 0-100 handicap winner
  • 2nd in a Group 1 (twice)
  • Grade 3 winner *** (Mirabilis)
  • Group 1 winner (six times)
  • Listed winner
  • 0-100 handicap winner (twice)
  • Maiden winner
  • Grade 3 winner *** (Mirabilis)
  • Unraced
  • Raced in Italy - 4 wins from 32 starts
  • 2nd in a maiden (twice)
  • Listed winner (twice); 2nd in Gr 1 (twice)
What is strange is there is only one Group 1 winning mare in the 19 top Frankel runners, no Group 2 winning mare, two Group 3 winning mares, six Listed winning mares.
The six times Group 1 winning mare was Attraction, who bred the Group 2 winner Elarqam to Frankel.

(18 mares - Mirabilis (f) bred two of Frankel's top 19 runners).

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Kimberley Mine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jul 2023 at 3:41pm
Originally posted by diomed diomed wrote:

Many Group 1, 2, 3 mares visited Frankel (at stud 11 years).

These are the top races by the mares who bred winners with a racing Post rating (RPR) of 120+ to Frankel, shown in descending RPR order of the best Frankel winners.

What is strange is there is only one Group 1 winning mare in the 19 top Frankel runners, no Group 2 winning mare, two Group 3 winning mares, six Listed winning mares.

How is Racing Post making its ratings?

Because in addition to Attraction, he has Gr-1 winners out of 2 x Gr-1 winner Heat Haze (GB), 4x Gr-1 winner Sky Lantern, and 6 x Gr-1 winner Stacelita (FR).  Soul Stirring, out of Stacelita, is a two-time champion in Japan, while Sky Lantern produced the very highly rated (at one point) Snow Lantern.  He also has a Gr-1 winning juvenile in Japan out of a Breeders Cup F&M Sprint winning mare, Wavell Avenue (CAN).



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote diomed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jul 2023 at 9:26pm
How is Racing Post making its ratings?
Horses who ran in the United Kingdom, Ireland, France, and some German, Italian, USA, Japanese, UAE races.

Because in addition to Attraction, he has Gr-1 winners out of 2 x Gr-1 winner Heat Haze (GB), 4x Gr-1 winner Sky Lantern, and 6 x Gr-1 winner Stacelita (FR).

Heat Haze
I assume her progeny raced in Japan in races not open to outside competition.
Heat Haze is not on pedigreequery.com.
Heat Haze is on the Racing Post website, three races where she finished 16/16, 11/16, 11/16.
The Racing Post does not show any of her progeny.

Sky Lantern
Snow lantern is rated BEST RPR 117 on the Racing post website, below my list of Frankel's runners rated 120+.

Stacelita
Soul Stirring, out of Stacelita, is a two-time champion in Japan, while Sky Lantern produced the very highly rated (at one point) Snow Lantern. 
Soul Stirring, The Japanese Oaks winner, is rated BEST RPR 112, and was rated BEST RPR 112 on that Oaks win, below my cut-off point of 120.

Wavell Avenue
He also has a Gr-1 winning juvenile in Japan out of a Breeders Cup F&M Sprint winning mare, Wavell Avenue (CAN).
I assume this is Grenadier Guards, rated BEST RPR 118, below the 19 horses I listed rated 120+


I was talking about BEST RPR ratings of 120+.
You are talking about Japanese Group 1 races.

Anapurna by Frankel won the English Oaks, Group 1, and has a BEST RPR 113 (career) and a RPR 113 for that Oaks win.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Take2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jul 2023 at 9:40pm
Heat Haze (ex Hasili) is Dam of Mirage Dancer, (G1) &. Ironclad Mirage Dancer @ stud at Castlefield stud in Oirland

Edited by Take2 - 06 Jul 2023 at 9:57pm
change is simply a destination on a journey reached by taking the first step (i said that) lol

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote diomed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jul 2023 at 9:52pm
Thanks

Mirage Dancer by Frankel out of Heat Haze, BEST RPR 119, and RPR 109 for his Grade 1 Metroplitan Handicap win at Randwick.
Ironclad by Dubawi out of Heat Haze, BEST RPR 120 when 2nd in the Northerly Stakes, Group 1 at Ascot (AUS).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote diomed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jul 2023 at 5:03am
Two of the more successful mares bred to to Frankel are Mirabilis (2002) and L'Ancresse (2000).

Their progeny by Frankel with ratings are

Mirabilis
Fabilis, RPR 103
Monarchs Glen, RPR 121
Westover, RPR 123

L'Ancresse
Eminent Authority, RPR 99
Frenkenstella, RPR 95
Master Of Reality, RPR 119
Sibila Spain, RPR 111

Mirabilis and L'Ancresse have something in common in their pedigrees
Mirabilis has Sky Love (1985) as her 2nd dam.
L'Ancresse has Caerleon (1980) as sire of her 2nd dam

Sky Love (1985) (f) and Caerleon (1980) (m) are both by Nijinsky out of a mare by Round Table and that mare is out of a mare by Hail To Reason.

How many horses in my data are by Nijinsky out of a mare by Round Table and that mare is out of a mare by Hail To Reason.  
The answer is seven: Caerleon (m); Distant (f); Merce Cunningham (m); Prance (f); Video (f); Vision (m) (all by Nijinsky out of Forseer) and Sky Love (f) by Nijinsky out of Gangster Of Love.

My guess is you should breed a mare  to Frankel with one or more of the seven horses listed below in her pedigree.

Caerleon (m) was a sire and is easily found in mare pedigrees.
Distant (f) in my data has four offspring, all to stallions who stood in Japan (Tony Bin; Sunday Silence; End Sweep)
Merce Cunningham (m) was a sire in Argentina.
Prance (f), unraced, has six offspring in my data, all by USA based sires.
Video (f), 2 wins from 7 starts, has eight offspring in my data, all by USA based sires.
Vision (m), has 161 offspring in my data.  At 4 he went to Ireland, at 14 went to Japan.


These are all the horses in my data by Frankel that have Caerleon in the pedigree of the dam

Adayar (English Derby), BEST RPR 128 [Caerleon in 3rd generation on dam line]
Carry A Flame, unraced [Caerleon in 4th gen on dam line]
Casanova, BEST RPR 107  [Caerleon in 3rd gen on dam line]
Climene, unraced ? [Caerleon in 3rd gen on sire line of damsire]
Dreamflight, BEST RPR 104 [Caerleon in 4th gen on dam line]
Frankenstella, BEST RPR 95 [Caerleon in 4th gen on dam line]
Franklin William, BEST RPR 72 [Caerleon in 5th gen on dam line]
Juan Elcano, BEST RPR 115 [Caerleon in 4th gen on sire line of 2nd dam]
Lofoten, BEST RPR 72 [Caerleon in 3rd gen on dam line]
Love Mystery, BEST RPR 77 [Caerleon in 5th gen on sire line of 3rd dam]
Military Order, BEST RPR 114 [Caerleon in 3rd gen on dam line]
Modus Operandi, BEST RPR 104 [Caerleon in 4th gen on sire line of 2nd dam]
My Only One, unraced ? [Caerleon in 4th gen on dam line]
Nelson, BEST RPR 118 [Caerleon in 4th gen on dam line]
Prince Imperial, BEST RPR 101 [Caerleon in 4th gen on sire line of 2nd dam]
Proxy, BEST RPR 70 [Caerleon in 4th gen on sire line of 2nd dam]
Reams Of Love, BEST RPR 74 [Caerleon in 3rd gen on sire line of dam]
Referenda, unraced ? [Caerleon in 4th gen on sire line of 2nd dam]
Sibila Spain, BEST RPR 111 [Caerleon in 4th gen on dam line]

I think Caerleon's 2nd dam, Regal Gleam (f) matches well with Bold Reason (m,) damsire of Sadler's Wells (sire of Galileo, sire of Frankel).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Take2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jul 2023 at 9:47am
Incidently
Heat Haze, (who won the Matriarch G1 )  Her trainer was none other than Robert J FRANKEL, so i guess it was a no brainer to send her to the 4 legged FRANKEL, and Heat Haze, like Frankel & Hasili was bred and owned By Khalid Abdullah's Juddmonte Farms

Diomed. i think you may have looked at the wtong Heat Haze on Racing Post, Her offspring are all there as well


Edited by Take2 - 07 Jul 2023 at 10:11am
change is simply a destination on a journey reached by taking the first step (i said that) lol

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote diomed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jul 2023 at 10:38pm
Diomed. i think you may have looked at the wrong Heat Haze on Racing Post, Her offspring are all there as well

You are probably correct.
Often I fail to find horses on the Racing Post website through my error (picking the right name/wrong horse) and other times I think it is the indexing of their data i.e. you can find a horse one way, say if you look up one of its offspring and go back form there, but you can't find it directly.

At other times their data is obviously wrong, for example, a horse born in 2020 with a dam born in 1987.

They also get names wrong, as my e-mail to them in April 2021 pointed out Wink
"The Racing Post shows Nancy Lee (1987) by Super Laxative out of Nancy Brig by Brigadier Gerard.
A super laxative may have helped her run faster (she was rated 56), but Turform annuals have her by the sire Superlative."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote diomed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jul 2023 at 7:15am
I collected 598 ratings for runners sired by Frankel.  
Their average was 89.3. higher than the GB average of 68.2.

Was there a way to analyse the pedigrees of those Frankel sired runners to find out what in the pedigrees of the mares bred to Frankel worked best with Frankel?

I wrote a program (43 A4 pages) that produced two files, a detail file and a results file.
The detail file has 305,578 records, which is 598 Frankel horses with 511 ancestors each (eight  generations: 1,2,4,8,16,32,64,128,256), 594 x 511 = 305,578.

The results file has the 7,748 different ancestors, 1,980 sires and 5,768 dams, in the 598 Frankel runners.
I am not using any ratings for the 7,748 different ancestors.


This is a snippet of the results file output

name g4_f_of_a g4_f_of_c
ALRUCCABA1983 102.2 5
ARCTIQUE ROYALE1978 108.63 8
FRIENDLY COURT1971 104.75 4
GANGSTER OF LOVE1972 108.25 4
HOME LOVE1976 101.8 5
IMAGE OF REALITY1976 100.46 13
LORA1972 100 6
SEDULOUS1986 101.5 4
VICTORIA STAR1972 102.25 4


These dams appear in the 4th generation of Frankel sired runners, 4 or more times.
The Frankel runners with these dams in their fourth generation have ratings much higher than usiual.


Examples might help

ALRUCCABA1983
  1. Alpinista (f) [rated 124];  out of Alwilda; out of Albanova; out of Alouette; out of Alruccaba
  2. Eminent (m) [rated 117];  out of You'll Be Mine; out of Quarter Moon; out of Jude; out of Alruccaba
  3. Fox Vardy (g) [rated 99];  out of Dance With Another; out of Quarter Moon; out of Jude; out of Alruccaba
  4. King Frankel (g) [rated 116];   out of You'll Be Mine; out of Quarter Moon; out of Jude; out of Alruccaba
  5. World Peace (f) [rated 55];  out of How High The Moon; out of Quarter Moon; out of Jude; out of Alruccaba
(124+117+99+116+55 = 511/5 = 102.2 avg rating)


IMAGE OF REALITY1976
  1. Ardent [95] dam by Empire Maker (m)
  2. Bona Fide [97] dam by Elusive Quality (m)
  3. Born A King [92] dam by Empire Maker (m)
  4. Fashion Business [111] dam by Empire Maker (m)
  5. Flight Leader [100] dam by Empire Maker (m)
  6. Fount [109] dam by Chester House (m)
  7. Hydros [95] dam by Empire Maker (m)
  8. Licence [108] dam by Empire Maker (m)
  9. Media Stream [107] dam by Empire Maker (m)
  10. Polemon [79] dam by Empire Maker (m)
  11. Raclette [107] dam by Empire Maker (m)
  12. Take My Chances [90] dam by Chester House (m)
  13. Weekender [116] dam by Empire Maker (m)
average rating of the 13 runners above 100.46

I can see a pedigree connection between the dam line of the deceased sire Empire Maker and Kind (f) the dam of Frankel.
If there is such a a thing as a nick (I dislike the expression), then Frankel with mares by Empire Maker (m) is one.


ARCTIQUE ROYALE1978
Four Frankel runners are out of L'Ancresse -> Solo De Lune -> Truly Special -> Arctique Royale
Those four are Eminent Authority [99]; Frankenstella [95]; Master Of Reality [119]; Sibila Spain [111].
There are another four other runners in my data, and they are by Sadler's Wells out of L'Ancresse, and are rated 82; 72; 80; NR, much lower than her Frankel runners..
The analysis is not to compare Frankel or Sadler's Wells.
It is to point out that some sires suit other sires, and some do not.

L'Ancresse matches the dam of Frankel, Kind, through three horses in L'Ancresse's pedigree: 
Kelty (f) (in L'Ancresse) with Roan Rocket (m) in Frankel (m); ........................ full siblings Venture and Buisson Ardent
Bell Bird (f) (in L'Ancresse) with Rock Garden (m) in Frankel (m); ........................ Sir Cosmo producing a son and daughter on the dam lines
Arctic Melody (in L'Ancresse) with Petitioner (m) in Frankel (m). ........................ full siblings Kinight Of The Garter and Castleline



It is probably possible to identify sire or dams that match a stallion at stud by analysing the stallion's existing runners (if each has a numerical rating, not a Group race win).

Of course, the stallion at stud must have a good selection of runners.
The analysis would be best on stallions in mid-career.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote diomed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jul 2023 at 9:42pm
It is 10am here in Ireland and I am looking at aother influences in the better Frankel runners.
Alleged (1974) (m) appears in the dams of 14 runners by Frankel with an average rating of 100.6 (Frankel average 89.3).

Frankel Sired Runner Rating Through 4Th Gen Sire
Eminent Authority2016 99 Law Society1982 Alleged1974
Emotion2019 105 Law Society1982 Alleged1974
Frankenstella2017 95 Law Society1982 Alleged1974
Master Of Reality2015 119 Law Society1982 Alleged1974
Nelson2015 118 Law Society1982 Alleged1974
Sibila Spain2018 111 Law Society1982 Alleged1974
Surya2015 103 Muhtarram1989 Alleged1974
Bonne Idee2017 101 Mysterial1994 Alleged1974
Dhahabi2018 110 Mysterial1994 Alleged1974
Stonetail2018 77 Mysterial1994 Alleged1974
Diverge2018 89 Ocean Jewel1983 Alleged1974
Ben Vrackie2015 113 Rose Of Jericho1984 Alleged1974
Hazarfan2015 74 Suavite1981 Alleged1974
San Remo2014 94 Suavite1981 Alleged1974

The reason for the better performance of Frankel runners out of a dam that has Alleged in her pedigree is:
Frankel's dam Kind (2001) (f) is out of Rainbow Lake (f), out of Rockfest (f) by Stage Door Johnny (m) by Prince John (1953 (m).
Alleged (1974) (m) is out of Princess Pout (f) by Prince John (1953) (m).

Stage Door Johnny (m) on the dam line of Frankel is a son of Prince John (1953) (m). 
Alleged (1974) (f) is out of a daughter of Prince John (1953) (m).

This is a son and daughter of a duplicated sire {Prince John (1953)}, superior to the much more common and negative influence of two sons of a duplicated sire.


I had a look at the two lowest rated above.
Stonetail has 4 sons of Northern Dancer, and 2 sons of Mr Prospector in six generations.
Hazarfan has 2 sons of Danzig, 2 sons of Blushing Groom, and 2 sons of Hail To reason in six generations.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote diomed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jul 2023 at 10:21pm
Another horse that matches well with Frankel is Homage (1989) (f) by Adjal (1984) (m).
Homage is the dam of the Mark Of Esteem (1993) (m) and all these horses (avg rating 101.8) are out of dams by Mark Of Esteem.

Frankel Sired Runner Rating Through 4Th Gen Sire
Count Octave2014 113 Homage1989 Ajdal1984
Crystal King2015 98 Homage1989 Ajdal1984
Hulcote2015 99 Homage1989 Ajdal1984
Triple Time2019 123 Homage1989 Ajdal1984
Waldfabel2017 76 Homage1989 Ajdal1984


Why have two of the above much higher ratings than the other three?

Count Octave has, in addition to Homage (1989) (f), a daughter of Prince John (1953) (m) mentioned above as a good link to Frankel.
Triple Time has a daughter of Fairy King (1982) a full sibling brother of Sadler's Wells, who has a son in Frankel's pedigree.

Count Octave has 4 sons of duplicated sire Northern Dancer.
Crystal King has 4 sons of duplicated sire Northern Dancer.
Hulcote has 4 sons of duplicated sire Northern Dancer.
Waldfabel has 4 sons of duplicated sire Northern Dancer.
Triple Time has 4 sons of duplicated sire Northern Dancer, but two are in the full sibling brothers mentioned.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kimberley Mine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jul 2023 at 8:28am
Originally posted by diomed diomed wrote:

It is 10am here in Ireland and I am looking at aother influences in the better Frankel runners.
Alleged (1974) (m) appears in the dams of 14 runners by Frankel with an average rating of 100.6 (Frankel average 89.3).

The reason for the better performance of Frankel runners out of a dam that has Alleged in her pedigree is:
Frankel's dam Kind (2001) (f) is out of Rainbow Lake (f), out of Rockfest (f) by Stage Door Johnny (m) by Prince John (1953 (m).
Alleged (1974) (m) is out of Princess Pout (f) by Prince John (1953) (m).

Stage Door Johnny (m) on the dam line of Frankel is a son of Prince John (1953) (m). 
Alleged (1974) (f) is out of a daughter of Prince John (1953) (m).

Hi Diomed,

This is really interesting work.  And I submit to you there's a common thread with the lines to Alleged and Caerleon, as well as Roan Rocket, Red God, Prince John, and Stage Door Johnny.

Alleged is out of Prince John mare...Prince John is by Princequillo out of a mare whose dam is by Blue Larkspur.

Several of Stage Door Johnny's best runners are linebred to Blue Larkspur, such as his Gr-1 winner Open Call or Meadowlands Cup winner Princelet.  But then he sired several high-class runners with Relic, such as Washington DC International winner Johnny D, French group winner Petit Montmorency, and...Frankel's 3rd dam Rockfest.  Relic is by Man'O'War son War Relic out of the mare Bridal Colors (Black Toney - Vaila), who is a close relation to Blue Larkspur (by Black Servant who is by Black Toney, out of Blossom time who is out of Vaila).

Caerleon, as you noted, is by Nijinsky out of a mare by Round Table who is out of a mare by Hail to Reason.  Nijinsky's dam Flaming Page is by a son of Bull Lea (by Bull Page, by Teddy) out of the Blue Larkspur mare Our Page, who is by Menow, and Man'O'War is further down the line.  Hail to Reason's dam Nothirdchance is by Blue Swords, a son of Blue Larkspur our of a Man'O'War mare, out of a mare by Sir Gallahad by Teddy.  Caerleon traces in tail-female to Big Hurry, a daughter of Blue Larkspur's grandsire Black Toney and the exceptional La Troienne who is by Teddy. 

(Side note: Menow and Tom Fool show up a *lot* here, too...I noted in a discussion about Pierro a while ago that Menow's dam Alcibiades by Supremus, a Commando-line horse like Blue Larkspur, has a strong affiliation to Black Toney, Blue Larkspur, and Balladier.  Sir Ivor's female line traces to Alcibiades, which is where that comes in.  Nijinsky has Tom Fool prominent his his pedigree, as does Blushing Groom's sire Red God.)

Moving on, Law Society, by Alleged out of a Prince John mare, has Blue Larkspur through Prince John's dam Not Afraid and through his broodmare sire Boldnesian's dam Alanesian.  Alanesian's dam Alablue is by Blue Larkspur out of a Sir Gallahad mare.  

Ocean Jewel, by Alleged, has an interesting second dam...she is by Better Self, whose sire is a full brother to Big Hurry (above) and whose dam is a genetic sibling to Blue Larkspur, I'll let you look at that yourself: https://www.pedigreequery.com/better+self

Mysterial, by Alleged, is out of a Seattle Slew mare.  Seattle Slew has Blue Larkspur through Alablue, Nothirdchance, and through his 5th dam, the taproot mare Myrtlewood.  Via his broodmare sire Poker, Seattle Slew also has a genetic sibling to Better Self in Baby League (her sire Bubbling Over is by North Star, the sire of Blue Larkspur's dam Blossom Time).

Empire Maker and Chester House are half siblings out of Toussaud, whose dam is Image of Reality.  Toussaud's sire El Gran Senor has Blue Larkspur and the closely related Baby League through Buckpasser, and he's from the same Torpenhow family that produced Nijinsky.  On her dam's side, Image of Reality's sire In Reality has Balladier, another genetic sibling to Blue Larkspur (by Black Toney out of a North Star mare).  Empire Maker, by Unbridled, adds another line to Buckpasser and In Reality as well as two lines to Aspidistra (by Better Self).  Finally, as if all that wasn't enough, Mr. Prospector's 5th dam is Myrtlewood, by Blue Larkspur.  Chester House is by Danzig and doesn't have the same level of Blue Larkspur/Balladier.

Finally, Adjal's pedigree speaks for itself: https://www.pedigreequery.com/ajdal  ;
His 3rd dam Bluehaze, by Blue Larkspur, is a full sibling to Blue Swords, noted above in Hail to Reason.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kimberley Mine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jul 2023 at 8:28am
So as far as Frankel's top runners, how does this stack up?  

Adayar's broodmare sire Dubawi is *loaded* with Blue Larkspur.  His sire Dubai Millennium has 3 crosses through different sources (all mares, Blue Larkspur wasn't much of a sire-of-sires but wow is he ever a magnificent broodmare sire).  Dubai Millennium's dam Colorado Dancer has two lines to Alcibiades via Tom Fool and Sir Ivor.  His broodmare sire Deploy traces back to Never Bend, who has both Blue Larkspur and Bimelech (Black Toney - La Troienne); Deploy's dam is by Roberto who has two crosses to Blue Larkspur via Hail to Reason and Bleebok.  His 2nd dam's sire Dancing Brave has Drone (Tom Fool) and Bee Mac (a genetic sibling to Blue Larkspur:  https://www.pedigreequery.com/bee+mac).  Adayar's 2nd dam is by Caerleon, as previously noted, bringing in another 2 lines to Blue Larkspur and a couple more to the Black Toney cluster pattern.

Looking at Cracksman:

Cracksman's dam is by Pivotal, by Polar Falcon.  Polar Falcon's second dam is by an unusual US-bred horse named Blue Tom...by Tom Fool (so, Alcibiades) out of a son of Balladier.  Pivotal's dam is by Cozzene, who has Relic and Prince John.  Cracksman's second dam St. Radegund is by Green Desert (Sir Ivor/Alcibiades & Blue Larkspur/Black Toney via Never Bend).

Arc winning filly Alpinista:

Her dam Alwilda is by Lanwades stud's foundation sire Hernando, who is by a son Nijinsky out of a Miswaki mare who is linebred to Buckpasser -- altogether, four lines to Blue Larkspur.  Her second dam Albanova is by Alzao, who has Sir Ivor.  Her third dam Alruccaba by Darshaan has Blue Larkspur/Black Toney via Never Bend and a pair of bonus lines to Relic via Caro and Delsy.  Each successive generation added more and more Blue Larkspur, culminating in a champion.  

Count Octave:

Count Octave has Blue Larkspur through his sire Adjal's lines to Native Partner and Lalun, as well as Bimelech and Tom Fool.  His third dam Shining Water has Blue Larkspur and Bimelech via Never Bend and Riverman, and she traces back to French champion filly Sybarite, by Royal Record.  Royal Record is by Nasrullah out of the Blue Larkspur mare Belle Histoire, a daughter of La Troienne and thus a 3/4 sibling to Bimelech.

And his best Australian runner to date, Converge:

His dam Conversely is by Shamardal, by Giant's Causeway.  GC has four lines of Blue Larkspur, through Halo, Miss Swapsco, and Roberto.  He also has Balladier via Spy Song and two lines to Menow.  Storm Bird's dam South Ocean is by New Providence who is by Bull Page, so there's the Blue Larkspur there, and she has horse named Hug Again (Stimulus/Teddy).  Helsinki has 3 lines to Blue Larkspur via Machiavellian, a line to Prince John, and a line to Never Bend and his doublet of Blue Larkspur and Bimelech. 

Conversely is out of Melhor Ainda, by Pulpit from the Argentinian mare Potrinner.  Pulpit has Blue Larkspur through Seattle Slew, Buckpasser, Nijinsky, and Mr. Prospector.  Potrinner's sire Potrillazo, a significant sire in South America, has Bee Mac, the dam of Better Self.  Her 2nd dam's sire Banner Sport has Baby Leage as his 2nd dam.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Kimberley Mine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jul 2023 at 8:38am
Originally posted by diomed diomed wrote:

Another horse that matches well with Frankel is Homage (1989) (f) by Adjal (1984) (m).
Homage is the dam of the Mark Of Esteem (1993) (m) and all these horses (avg rating 101.8) are out of dams by Mark Of Esteem.

Frankel Sired Runner Rating Through 4Th Gen Sire
Count Octave2014 113 Homage1989 Ajdal1984
Crystal King2015 98 Homage1989 Ajdal1984
Hulcote2015 99 Homage1989 Ajdal1984
Triple Time2019 123 Homage1989 Ajdal1984
Waldfabel2017 76 Homage1989 Ajdal1984


Here are the above horses and lines to Blue Larkspur, Relic, or their closer relations other than through Mark of Esteem:

Crystal King -- one line to Relic, no additional Blue Larkspur
Hulcote -- also a line to Relic, no additional Blue Larkspur
Waldfabel -- no Relic or Blue Larkspur
Triple Time -- three additional crosses to Blue Larkspur, 2 to Bimelech
Count Octave -- 3x Blue Larkspur, 1x Bimelech, 1x Tom Fool
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gay3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jul 2023 at 11:34am
To bear you out re. Pivotal KM, from Grey Affair overnight:

The Gp1 Falmouth Stakes for fillies & mares over a mile at Newmarket has been won by Nashwa (4m Frankel x Princess Loulou, by Pivotal) who scored an easy victory from Remarquee & Via Sistina.

Last year, Nashwa won the Gp1 Prix de Diane & the Gp1 Nassau Stakes.
Wisdom has been chasing me but I've always outrun it!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VSP. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jul 2023 at 11:36am
He just keeps racking up the Group Ones. Doing a great job. Love him.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote diomed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jul 2023 at 10:03pm
Thanks for the comments.

I must admit my results file is like a woodpile where I pick out interesting pieces.
This morning I will try to get the PC to do the selection from the results file.

Generation 4 appears to be the most productive.
If I pick ancestors in gen1, gen2, gen3 they are too few and ratings averages are erratic.
If I pick generations 5, 6, 7, 8 the numbers are too large and tend to converge on the Frankel runner average of 89.3.

I will list eight numbers
  1. Average rating of Frankel runners from males in the 4th generation producing male offspring in the 3rd generation
  2. Average rating of Frankel runners from males in the 4th generation producing female offspring in the 3rd generation
  3. Average rating of Frankel runners from females in the 4th generation producing male offspring in the 3rd generation
  4. Average rating of Frankel runners from females in the 4th generation producing female offspring in the 3rd generation
The other four numbers are the counts of the above horses in the 4th generation.

To reduce the listing from the 7,748 ancestors of the 598 Frankel runners I will filter it for rating averages >= than 100 and count >= 4

I don't know where this is going but I want to get the most out of the analysis, and let the PC do the work.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jul 2023 at 1:13am
reductio ad absurdum
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Brudder_A Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Aug 2023 at 5:54pm
Yesterday at Saratoga Frankel's daughter McKulick (GB) won the G2 Glens Falls Stakes (1 1/2miles) defeating the 1/2 odds-on favourite War Like Goddess by a neck.

McKulick (GB), b, 4/f (Frankel (GB) — Astrelle (IRE), by Makfi (GB))

Breeding is outstanding.

Mr. Prospector 4s x 3d
Northern Dancer 3s x 4d
Danzig 3s x 4d
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote diomed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Nov 2023 at 3:52am
I do not like to quote myself but here are a few lines I posted above

"I can see a pedigree connection between the dam line of the deceased sire Empire Maker and Kind (f) the dam of Frankel.  
If there is such a a thing as a nick (I dislike the expression), then Frankel with mares by Empire Maker (m) is one."

Breeding Insights by Leo Powell (page 26) in The Irish Field today, 11th November, mentions a $3,600 purchase, Nobals (2019) (g) by Noble Mission out of Pearly Blue by Empire Maker who now has 10 wins from 18 starts, earnings of $1,453,274, and on 4th November 2023 won the Breeders' Cup Turf Sprint (Grade 1).

The sire of Nobals (rated 113) is Noble Mission (by Galileo out of Kind), a full sibling brother to Frankel.
If ever there was evidence that ancestors back a few generations in a pedigree matter it is Frankel did very well with mares by Empire Maker, and his full brother Noble Mission produced his second highest earner from an Empire Maker mare.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Kimberley Mine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Nov 2023 at 9:26am
Here's a list of stakes horses by Frankel out of Empire Maker mares (source is Weatherbys):

Fashion Business (G2W) -- dam is G1W, 2nd dam is blue hen La Gueriere
Raclette (G2W) -- dam is G1W, tail-female to Coup to Genie
Flight Leader (G3W) -- G1P dam is 1/2 to G1W Midships
Born a King (LW) -- 2nd dam is 1/2 to G1W and extremely useful sire Mizzen Mast
Weekender (G1P) -- 2nd dam is Hasili
Licence (LP) -- full to Raclette
Media Stream (LP) -- full to Weekender

On the one hand, out of 13 horses of racing age by Frankel out of Empire Maker mares I've found, 4 of them are stakes winners for a fantastic strike rate of 25%.  On the other hand, he SHOULD get good foals out of mares like these, and none of them are winning at top level.
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