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nod. 
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 Posted: 03 Feb 2009 at 4:43pm |
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According to the USA Bloodhorse [stallion register] Danzig was 15.3.
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Progold
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Posted: 03 Feb 2009 at 8:04pm |
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My mistake, I actually meant to say that if you managed to duplicate Northern Dancer, a far more significant influence than Danzig, you would end up with a horse that struggled to be 15h with chronic hoof problems.
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sadlers wells
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Posted: 03 Feb 2009 at 8:14pm |
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my 2yo has (i think from memory)5 croses of ND in the first 7 generationshe is 16.2 both parents are 15.3
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John H
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Posted: 04 Feb 2009 at 5:39am |
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But Progold, aptiitudinally Danehill, like Northern Dancer, has sired a wide variety of good stallion sons, ranging from the pure speed influences of Lion Hunter, Commands and probably Exceed and Excel through the "Intermediate" types such as Flying Spur himself, Danzero etc and on to the "Transbrilliant" type represented by Redoute's Choice and further on to the middle distance stamina of his sire sons such as Danasinga, Nothin' Leica Dane, Blackfriars & Arena and maybe Elvstroem one day.
When it comes to Sebring's progeny, Danehill through Purespeed/Flying Spur appears a fair way back in the fourth generation it should be noted. Sebring is not typical of Danehill physically, although his attitude to racing certainly was. Like Purespeed, important Danehill stallions such as Danzero, Catbird, Redoute's Choice & (maybe again) Elvstroem are from Star Kingdom-line mares which brings the "Nod factor" into play. Anyway, we're going to find out one way or the other ! |
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tvlark
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Posted: 04 Feb 2009 at 5:47am |
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My two year old doubles in Sir Tristram in the first 3 generations and she's only 14.2. Will be lucky to make 15h. No Northern Dancer whatsoever, just his full brother Northern Native. Obviously height has large genetic bearing, but the duplication of Northern Dancer is unlikely to be the cause of it (in my opinion). After-all most of the Australian Thoroughbred population will have two, probably three crosses of Northern Dancer in the first five generations. And 95% of them would make my filly look like a dwarf. Fortunately the Romneyas and Infinite Graces of the world give me some hope. |
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robbo
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Posted: 04 Feb 2009 at 6:02am |
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What is she by, TVL?
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Progold
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Posted: 04 Feb 2009 at 6:38am |
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Interesting comments John H, but I am not sure that I agree totally. Looking at Danehill, his range of progeny was influenced greatly by the types of mares that he covered in my view. His European progeny from decidedly stouter mares raced accordingly. Lion Hunter from the speed influence Godswalk, and Elvstroem from a much stouter Marscay/Zamazaan background for example in Australia. Northern Dancer is a one in 100 year influence I think, and to judge other stallions by him is probably overplaying their influence. Northern Dancer seems to play by different rules to other stallions in pedigrees, and I doubt that any other present influence will have an ability to rewrite pedigree rules so to speak. |
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tvlark
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Posted: 04 Feb 2009 at 11:47pm |
Timber Trader. Not at all fashionable but a Group 1 winner from a great Australasian family.
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John H
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Posted: 05 Feb 2009 at 2:56am |
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Progold, what you say about Danehill's progeny is quite right, but it is also exactly what I am saying to you, that there is a wide variety within the Danehill stallion family, which is naturally brought on by the influences in the dams of each.
Wouldn't that then suggest, when inbreeding to Danehill, the possibilty of being able to "balance" (for wont of a better word) those speed and stamina elements of the D stallions' dams, if that's what you are seeking in a pedigree, in the same way that the stout Nijinsky has been a key element in ND inbreeding. |
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furious
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Posted: 05 Feb 2009 at 3:11am |
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I often wonder when inbreeding to individuals who are inbred ie Sir Tristram, if we get more of what they are inbred to. As that is Selene dam of Hyperion - that could be were the size is coming from. Hyperion was not a large horse but boy he could gallop so who cares anyway.
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Progold
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Posted: 05 Feb 2009 at 4:19am |
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The difference for me though John is that there seems to be more of a "Danehillness" about all of his progeny than there seemed to be about ND's progeny. Perhaps it was because ND was so small, that he threw seemingly (and I am no expert on ND progeny) a greater variation. I really don't think that Danehill in Australia had much variety in his offspring. By and large, with only an odd exception, the best ones were all over and done with by the Spring of their 3yo season. It is no coincidence I think that he never produced a winner of an AJC Derby while his stock regularly were successful in the earlier running of the VRC edition. However, if your theory is correct, I would suspect that the major difference would be between European bred Danehills and Australian bred ones. His progeny in Europe appear to have been markedly different to those here in performance. |
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John H
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Posted: 05 Feb 2009 at 7:51am |
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Just a brief reply as I need to be on the road early tomorrow.
"Danehillness", to some degree, is a factor of them all being bay. To my eye, ND's major sire sons, apart from Nijinsky and maybe one or two others such as Northfields, two of his best b'mare sires BTW, were fairly typical in type in most ways, whether bay or chestnut or whatever. We know Danehill did have variety in his Australian offspring aptitudinally. Whether his best ones were over and done with by the Spring of their 3YO season, does not necessarily carry over to the progeny of his major sire sons, which by and large become the main focus of inbreeding to Danehill in the narrow sense we are talking about. And we have had a few successful European Danehill sire sons such as Danehill Dancer, Rock of Gibraltar and Danetime, sprinter-milers or thereabouts all, without the NH-SH bias you infer. |
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John H
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Posted: 05 Feb 2009 at 5:23pm |
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All bays, bar the grey ones that is !!
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Progold
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Posted: 05 Feb 2009 at 9:32pm |
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I think that by type, most of the Australian Danehills are fairly similar forgetting the basics of colour. The overseas Danehills we have had visit stud have largely been ones that Coolmore thought were most like their father and therefore most suited to Australia - even if this hasn't quite worked out.
Northern Dancer is unique when it comes to all male duplications of him in a pedigree. But if we explore this phenomonen, we see that it is usually Nijinsky who we can agree is atypical of his stock, that creates the variance. The other main contenders are Nureyev/Fairy King/Sadler's Wells who all stem from the same female family, and occasionally The Minstrel who not surprisingly is from Nijinsky's female family. Perhaps the duplication of Selene in Nijinsky's pedigree is critical, and perhaps I am overlooking this influence altogether.
Apart from these, the results that I have been able to find for duplicating other sons of Northern Dancer really aren't remarkable especially when given the number of times that stallion was duplicated and still is.
We could easily have had the same discussion about Star Kingdom and Sir Tristram, whose impact on the Australasian thoroughbred were arguably greater than Danehill - although sheer weight of breeding numbers mean that Danehill has achieved his success more rapidly and more publicly.
Star Kingdom had limited success when duplicated closely, and when he did, it was usually sex balanced, or included the brothers Noholme and Todman.
Sir Tristram obviously could produce horses with a range of aptitudes - from Golden Slipper winners to Melbourne Cup winners, and on face value far more versatile than Danehill in Australasia. He still has a long way to go, but success in duplicating him has largely been through sex balanced presences. Rebel Raider is the only example of a close all male successful Sir T cross that I can find, rather surprisingly through sons Zabeel and Dalmacia. Perhaps this is balanced by the fact that the mare, Somethingroyal is also duplicated in the pedigree. The othr factor of course in Sir Tristram could be the presence of a Selene duplication, but that is another issue totally. As an aside, perhaps the Natalma factor in Danehill may be important in pedigrees with stallions like Orpen, Machiavellian, Diatribe, Al Samer, and of course his brothers Anziyan and Eagle Eyed may one day play an important role in the future success of Danehill further back in pedigrees.
While we will not know the answer to the question for many years, my impression is that Danehill is no more remarkable than other stallions and will follow the similar patterns of breeding that just about every stallion follows - apart from the Northern Dancer diversion.
I always mused, incidentally, what if Nijinsky had not actually been correctly recorded by the stud book, and wasn't actually a son of Northern Dancer? How that would change things ..............
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colambre
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Posted: 05 Feb 2009 at 10:55pm |
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Would you like to expand on the last 2 lines please as I dont understand it and I am sure many others would not either.
I always mused, incidentally, what if Nijinsky had not actually been correctly recorded by the stud book, and wasn't actually a son of Northern Dancer? How that would change things ..............
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reng
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Posted: 05 Feb 2009 at 11:11pm |
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Well, he was born in the days prior to bloodtyping and DNA typing, so it's we're all just relying on the good faith of the mare owner/stud master...
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The problem with Opportunity is that it wears overalls and looks like work.
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colambre
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Posted: 06 Feb 2009 at 3:17am |
What an amazing and stupid thing to try and say...just look at the history of Northern Dancer and Flaming Page, both owned by Mr.E.P.Taylor and both champions...you know about Northern Dancer but Flaming Page was the first filly to win the Canada Oaks and Queens Plate, she went to stud in 1963 and foaled a filly by Victoria Peak named Fleur (champion broodmare) in 1964, she was one of the first mares served by Northern Dancer on the 17th Feb 1965 and in foal but tragedy was to come on the 13th Feb 1966 she has dead twins.
In 1967 a colt was born later to become Nijinsky 11,he was sold at the annual Canadian sales not the annual Windfields Farm sale along with 11 other Northern Dancer yearlings. surprising he was top price at $84,000 but Mr.Taylor passed in two yearlings Canadiana filly ($125,000) and Victoria Regina colt ($100,000)
Sadly Flaming Page only had one more foal the next year also by Northern Dancer named Minsky who was leading two year old in Ireland and finished up in Japan...
Why oh why would he not put his best racemare to a champion racehorse that you both own and was going to try and make as a stallion I ask you ?
Northern Dancer left Canada Dec 3 1968 to start his next stage of his career in Maryland.
1965 he covered 35 mares 26 in foal,
1966 44 mares,
1967 45 mares,
1968 45 mares
footnote information from:
the American Produce Records 1930-1970
Chronology of a champion....Northern Dancers 1969 stud brochure from Windfields Farm....Maryland
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Progold
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Posted: 06 Feb 2009 at 6:40am |
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I was not saying that it did happne, but merely speculating as I am occasionally want to do ...
But then again has a foal ever been mixed up at a stud .... you may be surprised just how easy it can happen as an odd few mares will mix up their own progeny. Especially in days gone by, has there never been a colt or stallion that has managed to get through a fence to visit a mare? Accidents can and do happen - Star Kingdom almost was mixed up on the boat and shipped somewhere else ......
But of course, it could never have happened other than in the realms of fiction, could it ............... ?
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Mr Prospector
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Posted: 06 Feb 2009 at 7:32am |
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Progold
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Posted: 06 Feb 2009 at 7:42am |
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The line about Nijinsky should not be a distraction from the discussion....seriously.
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reng
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Posted: 06 Feb 2009 at 11:20pm |
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But of course it would be - you can't expect to make a sensational comment Progold and have people ignore for the greater good of the thread :D
I wasn't sayiing that Nijinsky was a muddle up; but in general all pedigrees before DNA typing should be viewed with the caution that comes with good faith.
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The problem with Opportunity is that it wears overalls and looks like work.
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reng
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Posted: 12 Feb 2009 at 7:03pm |
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So in an unrelated piece of research I have some data about inbreeding to Danehill. The two best that we could find so far are:
Lucky Thunder (Lucky Owners 2mx3f Danehill). Gr2 placed
Our Shakira (Cullen 2mx3f Danehill). L placed
In total we found: 19 that had raced, 7 winners.
Any others that people are aware of?
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The problem with Opportunity is that it wears overalls and looks like work.
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Progold
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Posted: 12 Feb 2009 at 8:14pm |
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I would suggest that the statistics are not too disimilar to many inbreeding attempts, and probably better than many. Nijinsky after all was duplicated around 100 times before the first SW appeared from that cross. The lesson of course there relates to the closeness of the inbreeding. With Danehill, I note that the most successful have been sex-balanced duplications.
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reng
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Posted: 12 Feb 2009 at 10:12pm |
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I haven't checked the rest, and the data is not complete. The numbers look a bit low, so it's going to get re-run to double check it. It may be that every time it's been tried so far is sex balanced, but as I said I haven't looked yet!
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The problem with Opportunity is that it wears overalls and looks like work.
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reng
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Posted: 12 Feb 2009 at 10:31pm |
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verified as correct back to 3 generations. am getting the 4th gen run now...
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The problem with Opportunity is that it wears overalls and looks like work.
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Jamal
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Posted: 23 Feb 2019 at 11:13pm |
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Off Golden Slipper winning stallion Sebring dies Morgan Payne 23 mins ago Golden Slipper winning stallion Sebring has sadly passed away after suffering a heart attack on Saturday afternoon. Widden Stud announced on Saturday night that their Golden Slipper winning stallion Sebring had died from a heart attack. “Sebring was the horse of a lifetime, as a racehorse and a stallion, he changed lives,” Antony Thompson told Breednet. Sebring was the sire of 51 stakes winners including Group One winners Dissident, Criterion, Egg Tart, Lucky Bubbles and Amphitrite. |
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Australian racing is only good up to 1400m in terms of world standards when it comes to depth/quality in numbers
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Jamal
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Posted: 23 Feb 2019 at 11:13pm |
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Australian racing is only good up to 1400m in terms of world standards when it comes to depth/quality in numbers
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