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Glencoe
Champion Joined: 19 Jun 2011 Location: Mt. Gambier S.A Status: Offline Points: 1942 |
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Posted: 06 Oct 2019 at 10:22pm |
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One has to worry about Australian Breeding when people who have an opportunity to positively shape the industry decry the virtue of racing a "proper horse" in the VRC derby
And yet "industry shapers" have no compunction in quickly retiring underraced, overpriced, physically suspect, mentally suspect and unproven in open grade ,young stallions ,so that they can fill their coffers in the first two years. and collectively assist in downgrading the Australian breed. Take note of the beatups and B/S on some sites as current young 2 & 3 Yo's are discussed in a price inflating manner
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kavg
Champion Joined: 08 Jun 2009 Status: Offline Points: 3993 |
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Fully agree. I started worrying about this 15 years ago and am probably beyond concerned. We have seemingly reached point of no return as it is like someone progressively becoming addicted to their drug of choice.
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Prejudice is an emotional attachment to ignorance.
DiEM25 for the world. |
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JudgeHolden
Champion Joined: 16 Apr 2011 Status: Offline Points: 11728 |
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The Australian thoroughbred has been driven off a cliff. They used to send B grade stayers to beat us. Now they’re sending down any old B grade horse. Or rather, our trainers are doing it for them, sourcing all their decent cattle from overseas. We used to win Japan Cups.
Probably sounding repetitive here, but we need to be honest about this. Our horses are crap. |
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Glencoe
Champion Joined: 19 Jun 2011 Location: Mt. Gambier S.A Status: Offline Points: 1942 |
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And in reverse any colt with promise hot foots it to H.K.
Once upon a time stallions were imported for their bloodlines. Now we clamour for an Ozbred with a sniff of. black type
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furious
Champion Joined: 19 Feb 2007 Status: Offline Points: 25165 |
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The real horses are there though and think about it. Coolmore, Darley, Arrowfield, Newhaven and many more have bought out plenty of multiple G1 winners which just haven't produced to our mares. In the past we bought out the syblings or relatives of the greats. Today we can bring out the greats - unless your a Frankel etc. And plenty of breeders have sent mares overseas to him or Deep Impact etc.
Yes I agree they are retiring them too early. I would of loved to see The Autumn Sun go round in the Golden Eagle and he might have if his sire hadn't died! But we have to very good ones in Brutal (still a colt) and Arcadia Queen. With Classique Legend also showing he could be a miler waiting in the wings. Brutal decends from the same Juliet line that So You Think, She Will Reign, Catchy, Impending etc all come from. Don't be so down. Hopefully races like the golden eagle will help stem the flow... Also it would be good if owners like the Winx crew got a colt. The Inghams raced their colts Octagonal and Lonhro on. We probably are closing on a changing of the guard. So things will change. But don't forget we have So You Think, Pierro and Dundeel already firing and giving miler to middle distance types. Not everything is so black.
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JudgeHolden
Champion Joined: 16 Apr 2011 Status: Offline Points: 11728 |
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The Autumn Sun peaked as a Spring 3yo. By the time he retired he was falling in against hacks. Which is one of the reason I assume he was retired. Our Derby winners on Saturday went as you might expect. It’s a dismal crop, but that seems to be increasingly the norm.
I admire your optimism furious, but you’ve well and truly got the blinkers on here. |
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djebel
Premium Joined: 07 Mar 2007 Status: Offline Points: 53960 |
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We have the proper horses.
We do not have proper trainers. |
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reductio ad absurdum
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brave_ponies
Champion Joined: 06 Sep 2013 Location: Sydney Status: Offline Points: 3270 |
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Yes yes yes (and that could be a pun) - well said Glencoe!
I despair at this very issue of sending 'colts' to stud. Short of a performance-based grading system like they have for the Dutch Warmbloods (which does have its flaws, fashions and is possibly corrupt) - ie the racetrack??!!! - the future looks grim. But having angsted over this - the ponies have a simple solution! NO BREEDING OF ENTIRES LESS THAN 5YO. (In caps and all) So you're either half decent and race on past 3yo and make a bit of cash; or you're suspect and will just have to sit in a paddock costing cash until the hype over your 2yo season is forgotten. Can we get a cheer? |
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djebel
Premium Joined: 07 Mar 2007 Status: Offline Points: 53960 |
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reductio ad absurdum
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djebel
Premium Joined: 07 Mar 2007 Status: Offline Points: 53960 |
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4 starts, yet to see 1200m.
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reductio ad absurdum
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djebel
Premium Joined: 07 Mar 2007 Status: Offline Points: 53960 |
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17 starts yet to see anything past a mile.
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reductio ad absurdum
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JudgeHolden
Champion Joined: 16 Apr 2011 Status: Offline Points: 11728 |
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You keep saying this but our trainers do much better with imports than Oz breds. This blows your whole argument out of the water. |
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djebel
Premium Joined: 07 Mar 2007 Status: Offline Points: 53960 |
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Apart from maybe two or three most go backwards out here. Avilius, Hartnell and by the looks of it Finche these 3 have gone ahead in leaps and bounds. Our 3 year old Derby horses, both the winners and also rans are not going on with it and I suspect it is because OUR trainers do not develop them properly, they race them into the ground over short trips. Prince Fawaz and Dalasan plus many others should be superstars over proper racing trips 2000m and beyond. Thankfully, with these imports these days, most are not wasting the horses talents in short course races. |
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reductio ad absurdum
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Gay3
Moderator Group Joined: 19 Feb 2007 Location: Miners Rest Status: Offline Points: 51994 |
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I suspect djebel will counter with: All the imports have been better prepared initially, to set them up for later success; somewhat of a rarity amongst our trainers & owners
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Wisdom has been chasing me but I've always outrun it!
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Second Chance
Champion Joined: 02 Dec 2007 Status: Offline Points: 45721 |
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For goodness sake djebel, Price Fawaz is bred to go a mile and hardly a stride beyond.Why do you keep posting your fictions?
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djebel
Premium Joined: 07 Mar 2007 Status: Offline Points: 53960 |
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You seriously have no idea.
His racing style, His stride, everything about him including his pedigree cries distance. EVERY thoroughbred is bred to run 4000m whether you like it or not. |
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reductio ad absurdum
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djebel
Premium Joined: 07 Mar 2007 Status: Offline Points: 53960 |
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reductio ad absurdum
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TJMitchell
Champion Joined: 29 Jun 2014 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 16915 |
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Never change mate
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Second Chance
Champion Joined: 02 Dec 2007 Status: Offline Points: 45721 |
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But many very slowly, just like your thinking processes.
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oldflight
Champion Joined: 03 Jan 2010 Location: NSW Status: Offline Points: 624 |
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MMMM Back to Glencore's point I agree totally and it comes up decade after decade When Star Kingdom arrived on these shores it was all we are breeding are speedy scwibes. A little bit ironic compared to now that Mr Wooton imported a speed influence to OZ, but we have also done that lately with Invincible spirit. I for one was always in the Speed from Europe NO Dirt Horse form from USA NO But ive been wrong more times than right Our sport adapts and so do all the participants including the livestock and the people that handle them Sir Tristram had a Slipper winner (yes I know out of a Biscay Mare who one a listed race at two) but it still happened. Gone are the days of Strawberry Road and Balmerino competing with the best middle distance horses in the World, (sadly) but our sprinter have gone to Europe and done very well. One of the issues Trainers have is pushy owners who will not wait and some of these problems stem from all of these new MULTI Million dollar races that are one off's and in direct competition with another state on the same day, thus diluting the field, this money is not at the medium part of the financial distribution of racing around Australia, if the money was spread around in Saturday, Mid week and country areas (not all but some) owners may see a potential return and be prepared to be more patient. We do not have to give your horse to a trainer at two or even three Remember when the Cups King Syndicate went toes up and Bart was asked if they wound him up what would he do? The reply was go to NZ and scour the Country for unraced 4yo mares and win the Cups double. It all seems to be lost in the Punt these days, you have to be a speed reader to check out the breeding on the racing channels these days but they tell what price the horse started at two years ago in a Barnsdale Maiden. Sorry for the Rant Ciao For Now Flight
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Progold
Champion Joined: 20 Feb 2007 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 3212 |
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Was it really all that long ago that So You Think was amongst the world's best? Does anyone believe that Winx would not have been competitive had she gone overseas?
The thoroughbred is always evolving, and while we can bemoan some of the changes, I always believe that it is more important to understand what is happening to the breed rather than why it is happening. If you delve back over old copies of Turf Monthly and Racetrack, the same arguments were being put forward in the 1950's. Where would the Australian thoroughbred be without the Golden Slipper for example? It would certainly be different, but can anyone argue that it would be better?
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Baguette
Champion Joined: 18 Dec 2012 Status: Offline Points: 3651 |
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IMO the Golden Slipper itself is not what changed our racing . What has changed from the good old days is the breeding industry and the technology that enables stallions these days to serve 150+ mares a year . Good stallions at stud are walking money making machines. Champion 2 year olds in past like Todman Vain and Luskin Star would be serving a full book of around 50 mares. Good return on investment for the stud but nothing like the money they’d make now. I guarantee all three would have been retired after their 2 year old year if they were around now because they can make more money in the breeding barn than they could ever hope to on the racetrack. Yearling buyers at the sales want the next Sebring or Pierro not a derby winner so the merry go round goes on. Maybe a huge prize money race like the Golden Eagle just might mean owners will race their colts on till they’re 4 . If in 10 years time the winning colt from the Golden Eagle is worth more at stud than the Slipper winner this would be a good thing IMO.
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Carioca
Champion Joined: 13 Nov 2015 Status: Offline Points: 21821 |
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There was plenty of speed influences about when the Star Kingdoms arrived on the racecourse Oldflight, some that I remember Newtown Wonder, Port Vista, Bob Cherry , Agincourt, Landau, Coronation Boy, Orgoglio, I could go on but my minds gone blank, Star Kingdoms sons won Slippers, Derby's, WFA at a mile and a half, one carried near top weight including the M.C. ( about 59kg) and had the audacity to hit the front on the turn but failed, the great Gunsynd was by a son of S.K. out of a Newtown Wonder mare , Rough Habit and a Super Impose both grandsons of Star Kingdom, there's many more but I won't bore you anymore , look elsewhere for the weakness, it's not in SK.
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JudgeHolden
Champion Joined: 16 Apr 2011 Status: Offline Points: 11728 |
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It's not just the Slipper though. There are now 2 restricted sales races for 2yos in this country worth 2 million apiece! How much of this is too much? On Plate day at the Valley, there's an early season 2yo restricted sales race worth two and a half times as much as the WFA mile on the same day.
Surely this is unique to Australia. And surely it's no coincidence that there are only two Australian breds in the 2000m WFA feature on Saturday, and they're "imported" from the West, which as far as I can tell hasn't joined the Eastern States' 2yo insanity. And if you think that's bad, check out the Herbert Power. When I started following racing we were winning Japan Cups. Even in the mid 2000s horses like Mummify and Elvestreom (very good horses but no superstars in their time) were winning against good quality internationals over 1800-2000. Imagine today suggesting you'd target a Japan Cup with Oz breds- they'd strap you to a sack truck and wheel you away Hannibal Lecter style. The decline has been steep and rapid, and while we keep throwing more and more money at average horses I can't see it improving.
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Baguette
Champion Joined: 18 Dec 2012 Status: Offline Points: 3651 |
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We have the genetic pool in this country to be breeding Japan Cup winners now. But that’s not what the buyers at the yearling sales want. You have to change their minds first if you want breeders to be putting their good mares to a stamina sire. You also can’t blame the racing clubs for putting on races for the sort of horses that we want to own.
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JudgeHolden
Champion Joined: 16 Apr 2011 Status: Offline Points: 11728 |
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IMO you can't blame buyers and breeders if the powers that be are going to put these huge carrots under their noses. You get to race for squillions in the shallowest of talent pools. Madness.
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Glencoe
Champion Joined: 19 Jun 2011 Location: Mt. Gambier S.A Status: Offline Points: 1942 |
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And on the converse there are no maiden 3YO's beyond 1600mts before Xmas in Victoria
We had the 1800 mt Derby/Oaks trial Late Sept at Flem and the only other 3YO races beyond 1600mts are the UCI Stks, the Caulfield Classic, the Ethereal Stks, the MV stks, VRC Derby, VRC Oaks, TCL Stks are all Black type.
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Glencoe
Champion Joined: 19 Jun 2011 Location: Mt. Gambier S.A Status: Offline Points: 1942 |
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I write this as P.D.L. just has his third winner for the week
Surely we have a problem with race programming as evidenced by the number of 3YO's being nominated in open maidens It takes a fairly good 3yo to win an open maiden in springtime
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furious
Champion Joined: 19 Feb 2007 Status: Offline Points: 25165 |
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Racing two year olds is not an issue. If they are ready better for them to race. Look I download racemeetings from Europe and whole meetings or five or six races on a card can be for two year olds and all with fields of say 9 to 24. We race less two year olds than they do.
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furious
Champion Joined: 19 Feb 2007 Status: Offline Points: 25165 |
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We all admire Hartnell - he ran seven times as a two year old.
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