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PROPER HORSES

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djebel View Drop Down
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    Posted: 20 May 2020 at 9:54pm
BAROCCI   (JPN) blk/br. H, 2008 {6-e} DP = 2-4-22-2-0 (30) DI = 1.31   CD = 0.20 - 19 Starts, 4 Wins, 4 Places, 3 Shows Career Earnings: €98,865 + $208,412
      Owner: Ecurie Wildenstein (2) Hronis Racing LLC
    Breeder: Dayton Investments Ltd.
  Winnings: 19 Starts: 4 - 4 - 3, €98,865 + $208,412

At 3: Won Prix Omnium II (FR-L,1600m); 2nd Prix du Prince D'Orange (FR-G3,2000m)
At 5: 3rd American H. (USA-G2,Hol,8fT); 3rd City of Hope Mile S. (USA-G2,SA,8fT)

Foaled March 13, 2008, sent to France the same year.
Raced in France and U.S.
Sold KEENOV14 $57,000 - At stud from 2016 at Ravdansen Stud in Sweden.

(CLOSE)
DEEP IMPACT (JPN)
b. 2002
SUNDAY SILENCE (USA)
blk. 1986 [C]
HALO (USA)
blk. 1969 [BC]
HAIL TO REASON (USA)
br. 1958 [C]
TURN-TO (IRE)b. 1951 [BI]
NOTHIRDCHANCE (USA)b. 1948
COSMAH (USA)*
b. 1953
COSMIC BOMB (USA)br. 1944
ALMAHMOUD (USA)ch. 1947 *
WISHING WELL (USA)
b. 1975
UNDERSTANDING (USA)
ch. 1963
PROMISED LAND (USA)gr. 1954 [C]
PRETTY WAYS (USA)br. 1953
MOUNTAIN FLOWER (USA)
b. 1964
MONTPARNASSE (ARG)br. 1956
EDELWEISS (USA)b. 1959
WIND IN HER HAIR (IRE)
b. 1991
ALZAO (USA)
br. 1980
LYPHARD (USA)
b. 1969 [C]
NORTHERN DANCER (CAN) b. 1961 [BC]
GOOFED (USA)ch. 1960 *
LADY REBECCA (GB)
b. 1971
SIR IVOR (USA)b. 1965 [IC]
POCAHONTAS (USA)br. 1955 *
BURGHCLERE (GB)
b. 1977
BUSTED (GB)
b. 1963 [S]
CREPELLO (GB)ch. 1954

SANS LE SOU (IRE)b. 1957
HIGHCLERE (GB)
b. 1971
QUEENS HUSSAR (GB)b. 1960
HIGHLIGHT (GB)b. 1958 *
BASTET (IRE)
b. 2002
GIANTS CAUSEWAY (USA)
ch. 1997 [C]
STORM CAT (USA)
br. 1983
STORM BIRD (CAN)
b. 1978
NORTHERN DANCER (CAN) b. 1961 [BC]
SOUTH OCEAN (CAN)b. 1967 *
TERLINGUA (USA)*
ch. 1976
SECRETARIAT (USA)ch. 1970 [IC]
CRIMSON SAINT (USA)ch. 1969 *
MARIAH'S STORM (USA)
b. 1991
RAHY (USA)
ch. 1985
BLUSHING GROOM (FR)ch. 1974 [BC]
GLORIOUS SONG (CAN)b. 1976 *
IMMENSE (USA)
b. 1979
ROBERTO (USA)b. 1969 [C]
IMSODEAR (USA)b. 1967 *
BENEDICTION (GB)
b. 1985
DAY IS DONE (IRE)
ch. 1979
ARTAIUS (USA)
b. 1974
ROUND TABLE (USA)b. 1954 [S]
STYLISH PATTERN (USA)b. 1961
HEADIN' HOME (IRE)
b. 1971
HABITAT (USA)b. 1966
MISS DOREE (GB)ch. 1957
CATHEDRA (GB)
b. 1976
SO BLESSED (GB)
br. 1965
PRINCELY GIFT (GB)b. 1951
LAVANT (GB)b. 1955
COLLYRIA (GB)
br. 1956
ARCTIC PRINCE (GB)br. 1948
EYEWASH (GB)ch. 1946
Family Summary: B3 (2), 1-g (2), 1-w (1), 2-s (3), 2-f (6), 2-d (4), 3-e (4), 4-r (1), 4-p (3), 4-n (2), 4-j (2), 6-e (6), 8-g (1), 8-c (3), 9-h (3), 10-c (1), 11 (4), 12-c (3), 13-a (1), 14-b (1), 14-c (2), 14-f (1), 16-d (1), 17-b (2), 19-c (1), 19 (1), 22-d (1),
reductio ad absurdum
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote furious Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Oct 2019 at 11:35am
Just look at things differently Judge.  It's not impossible to see a field of imports racing here at the moment with one Aussie in the mix.  Sometimes that one wins against the odds so I'm just saying don't give up on them.  The blood is still there.  If we don't believe in them who will.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JudgeHolden Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Oct 2019 at 7:56am
Originally posted by furious furious wrote:

OK they are winning these races yet our mares and stallion overseas have had winners in the Epsom Derby, Dubai World Cup, Epsom Oaks.  Same stallions and bloodlines found here.  Could be nothing developed while Winx was so supreme.  Or as I said we are been to kind to our horses.  What does a baby do.  It struggles all the way to get better and better.  Same with young horses or any young animal.  They struggle to learn what they must to survive in the world they are in.  They get Exceed and Excels to run over a distance!  We can hardly get them to run 1600m.

It's easy to import a late three year old or four year old with all the background already done.  Look Rekindling went out over 2000m as a  2yo and finished last.  Our trainers would say.  Oh well he can't stay!

Never stop believing the horses are here.  They are you just have to find them and develop them to be  best they can be.  After all we still have lots of branches of Cape of Good Hopes family here.  As well as so many others to work with over a distance.

furious- we give our babies squilions of dollars in racing's shallowest talent pool. How on earth does this make them "struggle all the way to get better and better"? How can you make that comment and not see the obvious?Confused
 



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote furious Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Oct 2019 at 7:13am
OK they are winning these races yet our mares and stallion overseas have had winners in the Epsom Derby, Dubai World Cup, Epsom Oaks.  Same stallions and bloodlines found here.  Could be nothing developed while Winx was so supreme.  Or as I said we are been to kind to our horses.  What does a baby do.  It struggles all the way to get better and better.  Same with young horses or any young animal.  They struggle to learn what they must to survive in the world they are in.  They get Exceed and Excels to run over a distance!  We can hardly get them to run 1600m.

It's easy to import a late three year old or four year old with all the background already done.  Look Rekindling went out over 2000m as a  2yo and finished last.  Our trainers would say.  Oh well he can't stay!

Never stop believing the horses are here.  They are you just have to find them and develop them to be  best they can be.  After all we still have lots of branches of Cape of Good Hopes family here.  As well as so many others to work with over a distance.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote furious Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Oct 2019 at 3:17am
Not really they buy up the older lines which have become unfashionable in the sales ring but still breed good horses
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JudgeHolden Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Oct 2019 at 5:59pm
furious, the three big races at a mile and beyond today were won by imports. This is not an isolated occurrence. It's almost inevitable. O/s horses or imports won 20 odd G1 races last calendar year. And that was with Winx, and without them  contesting 2 and 3yo events.

Interesting that unfashionably bred horses from WA and Tasmania are punching above their weight.
The major breeding centres in this country are churning out a conga line of cream puffs. You can keep polishing this turd, but it still stinks.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote furious Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Oct 2019 at 5:53pm
well that makes sense.  My mind isn't working at the moment at all.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Grey Affair Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Oct 2019 at 5:38pm
Buffalo River was actually younger than the rest of the field. He is still a Northern Hemisphere three year old foaled in March 2016.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote furious Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Oct 2019 at 5:11pm
Likewise yes Cape of Good Hope is breed overseas but his dam is Australian from a great female line.  Just because they go to stud doesn't mean they don't contribute to the racing population in the future.  And NSW is trying to keep them going into their four year old career with these new races.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote furious Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Oct 2019 at 5:09pm
Just a thought.  One four year old in the silver eagle was breed overseas.  It was older than the entire field but it finished last.  This is a four year old race Judge not money for the babies.  It was like David and Goliath with the Inevitable and Fasika.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JudgeHolden Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Oct 2019 at 8:38pm
It's really perverse. They're offering huge money at these restricted sales races BECAUSE their horses are garbage. Why ELSE would you buy them?

We're a long way down the rabbit hole now, Alice.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote JudgeHolden Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Oct 2019 at 6:01pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote furious Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Oct 2019 at 5:53pm
Sorry can't argue at the moment.  Hearts not in it.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JudgeHolden Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Oct 2019 at 5:43pm
Racing 2yos isn’t the problem furious. It’s how much money’s available to them that’s the problem.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote furious Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Oct 2019 at 5:06pm
We are molly coddling the young ones and then wonder why they have no fight when it gets tough.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote furious Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Oct 2019 at 5:05pm
We all admire Hartnell - he ran seven times as a two year old.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote furious Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Oct 2019 at 5:03pm
Racing two year olds is not an issue.  If they are ready better for them to race.  Look I download racemeetings from Europe and whole meetings or five or six races on a card can be for two year olds and all with fields of say 9 to 24.  We race less two year olds than they do.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Glencoe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Oct 2019 at 1:37pm
I write this as P.D.L. just has his third winner for the week
Surely we have a problem with race programming as evidenced by the number of 3YO's being nominated in open maidens
It takes a fairly good 3yo to win an open maiden in springtime
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Glencoe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Oct 2019 at 1:32pm
And on the converse there are no maiden 3YO's beyond 1600mts before Xmas in Victoria
We had the 1800 mt Derby/Oaks trial Late Sept at Flem and the only other 3YO races beyond 1600mts are  the UCI Stks, the Caulfield Classic, the Ethereal Stks, the MV stks, VRC Derby, VRC Oaks, TCL Stks are all Black type.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JudgeHolden Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Oct 2019 at 1:13pm
IMO you can't blame buyers and breeders if the powers that be are going to put these huge carrots under their noses. You get to race for squillions in the shallowest of talent pools. Madness.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baguette Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Oct 2019 at 12:55pm
We have the genetic pool in this country to be breeding Japan Cup winners now. But that’s not what the buyers at the yearling sales want. You have to change their minds first if you want breeders to be putting their good mares to a stamina sire. You also can’t blame the racing clubs for putting on races for the sort of horses that we want to own.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JudgeHolden Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Oct 2019 at 11:57am
It's not just the Slipper though. There are now 2 restricted sales races for 2yos in this country worth 2 million apiece! How much of this is too much? On Plate day at the Valley, there's an early season 2yo restricted sales race worth two and a half times as much as the WFA mile on the same day.

Surely this is unique to Australia. And surely it's no coincidence that there are only two Australian breds in the 2000m WFA feature on Saturday, and they're "imported" from the West, which as far as I can tell hasn't joined the Eastern States' 2yo insanity. And if you think that's bad, check out the Herbert Power. 

When I started following racing we were winning Japan Cups. Even in the mid 2000s horses like Mummify and Elvestreom (very good horses but no superstars in their time) were winning against good quality internationals over 1800-2000. Imagine today suggesting you'd target a Japan Cup with Oz breds- they'd strap you to a sack truck and wheel you away Hannibal Lecter style.

The decline has been steep and rapid, and while we keep throwing more and more money at average horses I can't see it improving.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carioca Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Oct 2019 at 11:39am
There was plenty of speed influences about when the Star Kingdoms arrived on the racecourse Oldflight, some that I remember Newtown Wonder, Port Vista, Bob Cherry , Agincourt, Landau, Coronation Boy, Orgoglio, I could go on but my minds gone blank, Star Kingdoms sons won Slippers, Derby's, WFA at a mile and a half, one carried near top weight including the M.C. ( about 59kg) and had the audacity to hit the front on the turn but failed, the great Gunsynd was by a son of S.K. out of a Newtown Wonder mare , Rough Habit and a Super Impose both grandsons of Star Kingdom, there's many more but I won't bore you anymore , look elsewhere for the weakness, it's not in SK.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baguette Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Oct 2019 at 11:25am
IMO the Golden Slipper itself is not what changed our racing . What has changed from the good old days is the breeding industry and the technology that enables stallions these days to serve 150+ mares a year . Good stallions at stud are walking money making machines. Champion 2 year olds in past like Todman Vain and Luskin Star would be serving a full book of around 50 mares. Good return on investment for the stud but nothing like the money they’d make now. I guarantee all three would have been retired after their 2 year old year if they were around now because they can make more money in the breeding barn than they could ever hope to on the racetrack. Yearling buyers at the sales want the next Sebring or Pierro not a derby winner so the merry go round goes on. Maybe a huge prize money race like the Golden Eagle just might mean owners will race their colts on till they’re 4 . If in 10 years time the winning colt from the Golden Eagle is worth more at stud than the Slipper winner this would be a good thing IMO.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Progold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Oct 2019 at 9:02am
Was it really all that long ago that So You Think was amongst the world's best? Does anyone believe that Winx would not have been competitive had she gone overseas?

The thoroughbred is always evolving, and while we can bemoan some of the changes, I always believe that it is more important to understand what is happening to the breed rather than why it is happening.  If you delve back over old copies of Turf Monthly and Racetrack, the same arguments were being put forward in the 1950's. 

Where would the Australian thoroughbred be without the Golden Slipper for example? It would certainly be different, but can anyone argue that it would be better?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote oldflight Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Oct 2019 at 8:40am
MMMM
Back to Glencore's point
I agree totally and it comes up decade after decade
When Star Kingdom arrived on these shores it was all we are breeding are speedy scwibes.
A little bit ironic compared to now that Mr Wooton imported a speed influence to OZ, but we have also done that lately with Invincible spirit. I for one was always in the
Speed from Europe NO
Dirt Horse form from USA NO
But ive been wrong more times than right
Our sport adapts and so do all the participants including the livestock and the people that handle them
Sir Tristram had a Slipper winner (yes I know out of a Biscay Mare who one a listed race at two) but it still happened.
Gone are the days of Strawberry Road and Balmerino competing with the best middle distance horses in the World, (sadly) but our sprinter have gone to Europe and done very well.

One of the issues Trainers have is pushy owners who will not wait and some of these problems stem from all of these new MULTI Million dollar races that are one off's and in direct competition with another state on the same day, thus diluting the field, this money is not at the medium part of the financial distribution of racing around Australia, if the money was spread around in Saturday, Mid week and country areas (not all but some) owners may see a potential return and be prepared to be more patient.
We do not have to give your horse to a trainer at two or even three

Remember when the Cups King Syndicate went toes up and Bart was asked if they wound him up what would he do? The reply was go to NZ and scour the Country for unraced 4yo mares and win the Cups double.

It all seems to be lost in the Punt these days, you have to be a speed reader to check out the breeding on the racing channels these days but they tell what price the horse started at two years ago in a Barnsdale Maiden.

Sorry for the Rant
Ciao For Now Flight
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Second Chance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Oct 2019 at 6:15pm
Originally posted by djebel djebel wrote:

You seriously have no idea. 

His racing style, His stride, everything about him including his pedigree cries distance.

EVERY thoroughbred is bred to run 4000m whether you like it or not.  

But many very slowly, just like your thinking processes.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TJMitchell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Oct 2019 at 5:53pm
Originally posted by djebel djebel wrote:


EVERY thoroughbred is bred to run 4000m whether you like it or not.



LOLLOLLOL

Never change mate
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Oct 2019 at 5:33pm
PRINCE FAWAZ (AUS)Bay or brown colt 2016 
Fastnet Rock
Bay 2001
Danehill
Bay 1986
Danzig
Bay 1977
Northern Dancer
Bay 1961
Nearctic
Natalma
1954
1957
14-c
2-d
Pas de Nom
Bay or brown 1968
Admiral's Voyage
Petitioner
1959
1952
4-n
7-a
Razyana
Bay 1981
His Majesty
Bay 1968
Ribot
Flower Bowl
1952
1952
4-l
4-d
Spring Adieu
Bay 1974
Buckpasser
Natalma
1963
1957
1-s
2-d
Piccadilly Circus
Bay 1995
Royal Academy
Bay 1987
Nijinsky
Bay 1967
Northern Dancer
Flaming Page
1961
1959
2-d
8-f
Crimson Saint
Chestnut 1969
Crimson Satan
Bolero Rose
1959
1958
26>
8-c
Gatana
Bay 1989
Marauding
Bay 1984
Sir Tristram
Biscalowe
1971
1979
6-e
4-i
Twigalae
Bay 1979
Twig Moss
Hondalae
1973
1968
1-k
2-f
Lady Paget
Brown 2008
Testa Rossa
Bay 1996
Perugino
Bay or brown 1991
Danzig
Bay 1977
Northern Dancer
Pas de Nom
1961
1968
2-d
7-a
Fairy Bridge
Bay 1975
Bold Reason
Special
1968
1969
19-b
5-h
Bo Dapper
Bay 1985
Sir Dapper
Bay 1980
Vain
Sikri
1966
1967
A10
C25
Bodega
Bay 1973
Without Fear
Salon
1967
1964
4-c
1-w
Lady Capel
Brown 1993
Last Tycoon
Bay or brown 1983
Try My Best
Bay 1975
Northern Dancer
Sex Appeal
1961
1970
2-d
8-f
Mill Princess
Bay 1977
Mill Reef
Irish Lass
1968
1962
22-d
8-c
Kew Gardens
Bay 1981
Kenmare
Grey 1975
Kalamoun
Belle of Ireland
1970
1964
9-c
1-m
Garden Green
Bay 1964
Pinturischio
Focal
1958
1959
4-r
21-a
 Ancestor duplications:Northern Dancer4m,5m x 5m,5m Natalma5m,5f x Danzig3m x 4m
reductio ad absurdum
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Oct 2019 at 5:31pm
You seriously have no idea. 

His racing style, His stride, everything about him including his pedigree cries distance.

EVERY thoroughbred is bred to run 4000m whether you like it or not.


reductio ad absurdum
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