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Cox Plate 2019

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    Posted: 28 Oct 2019 at 5:43pm
Thought Mystic Journey ran well considering where the rest of the field finished and how she is not a 2000mtr horse

Stick her to mile races and she will make plenty of cash for her connections
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Second Chance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Oct 2019 at 3:29pm
Closer than 3 of the 4 who led them up...Embarrassed
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Second Chance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Oct 2019 at 3:28pm
Pretty fair article, however I can't agree with: Mystic Journey was ....ultimately disappointing.

Firstly, she finished closer than the four who led them up, but more importantly it's clear that she's a "miler" who's competitive in Gp 1 races over 2000m on class alone.  Given continuing soundness will win more than her share of 1600m Group races before she retires imo.


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Timeform Recap of the 2019 Cox Plate won by Japanese mare Lys Gracieux.

Lys Gracieux winning the Ladbrokes W S Cox Plate Lys Gracieux winning the Ladbrokes W S Cox Plate Picture: Bruno Cannatelli

Lys Gracieux  won the first Winx-free Cox Plate in four years and she did it in the sort of style that the great mare would have been proud of. 

Style, sure, though not quite the substance. Lys Gracieux comes away from the Valley rated 125+ which sits below all four of Winx's Cox Plate wins of which her third, achieved when turning away a gritty, well-ridden Humidor, draws the most parallels. 

Winx was rated 134, and ran to 133+ when winning the 2016 Cox Plate by eight lengths. That's a different world to where Lys Gracieux resides but Lys still packs far too much punch for what remains in Australia's PWE (Post Winx Era). 

In the PWE key Cox Plate trials have been going to horses rated 118-120. Good horses, but that sort of horse has long been fodder for Winx, and it was fodder for Lys Gracieux on Saturday. 

But it's not all doom and gloom down under. The horse that dragged such a performance out of Lys Gracieux is a beacon of hope. Castelvecchio, last season's 121-rated Champion Two-Year-Old alongside Microphone, stepped out of his age group and up to the plate, posting a 124 rating in a well-run race against global formlines. 

A good overall time underpinned those global formlines and Castelvecchio was able to finish much closer to Lys Gracieux than a host of Japan's biggest stars could in June's Takarazuka Kinen where the mare won by a margin bettered only by megastars Gold Ship  and Deep Impact  in modern history. 

To the winner goes the spoils in racing, and punters want a payout before heaping too much praise, but Castelvecchio posted a performance of note here and paid a fine compliment to the similarly promising Shadow Hero  in the process. 

The three-year-old sprinters are a hot division this season and have naturally stolen the headlines, but the middle distance crew are shaping up as well. Shadow Hero posted a strong overall time when winning the Spring Champion and he did it with late strength. There's some meat on the bones there, and Thought Of You has seemingly emerged out of nowhere to be snapping at his heels courtesy of a very warm performance in his Caulfield Derby Trial. 

The Everest dragged Arcadia Queen away from the Cox Plate but she is rated 121 over 1800m and has relatively fresh legs. So perhaps the cupboard isn't as bare as it seems - we've just spread the ingredients too thin... 

The best of the local defence before the Cox Plate, judged on Timeform ratings, came from Mystic Journey and Te Akau Shark - Te Akau Shark claimed as Australian under the Crowded House rule - and Te Akau Shark can be considered another beacon of hope. 

He didn't match his big Epsom peak stretched out in trip but he did enough to think that it's representative of his true talent level, running on to third (admittedly with a fairly sweet run inside horses and sectional analysis will show that he wasn't too far back to be severely disadvantaged) from last having conceded plenty early from a wide draw. 

He was awkwardly placed for his first try at the trip but running on by a well-ridden Magic Wand, coming off an Irish Champion second (where Lys Gracieux's old sparring partner Deirdre got stitched up by the locals and in another scenario goes mighty close to winning) is nothing to sneeze at. Again, the promise of the 'local' now has the backing of a global formline and if he is to press on to a Mackinnon he would go there with a better set-up to confirm his place at the pointy end of the Aussie weight-for-age ranks.

Mystic Journey was solid, but ultimately disappointing. That said, she may be better suited by a drop back to a mile, and perhaps the very slow early tempo of the Turnbull, off a fairly light prep all round, left her lacking for match practice on the day.

https://www.racingandsports.com/news/timeform/timeform-news/2019-10-28/timeform-recap-2019-cox-plate/500356


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carioca Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Oct 2019 at 12:39pm
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O'Sullivan: Lys no match for Winx

Racing Article

Daniel O'Sullivan@TRBHorseRacing

1:27pm


As impressive as the win of Lys Gracieux’s was, it wasn't in the same territory as Winx with the champion mare rating between one and 3.7 lengths superior across her four-year reign.

Lys Gracieux's Cox Plate win on Saturday returned a 108 WFA Performance Rating.

By comparison, here are Winx's four Cox Plate ratings:

2015: 113

2016: 115.5

2017: 110

2081: 111

It's easy to get carried away in the euphoria of a stunning victory like Lys Gracieux produced, but that's where a consistent and objective rating process can help to provide some context.

When I assess the speed performance of Saturday's Cox Plate in conjunction with the past form and ratings of key runners, there's no objective reason to rate Lys Gracieux any higher than 108.

The time and sectionals were strong, but they certainly weren't what I would call world class. 

The style of the win has some extra merit and it's likely that if Lys Gracieux found a position up near the lead in the early stages (like she did last start in Japan) then I'm sure she wins the Cox Plate by further and rates even higher, perhaps challenging that 110 mark or a touch better, but we can only assess what happened on the day. 

That's not to knock the win in any way, it was outstanding and a serious Group 1 quality performance, but it's important to keep some perspective.

The ratings based assessors like myself have had Winx well and truly established as one of the top horses in the world for a number of years. Few would argue with that.

Prior to Saturday Lys Gracieux didn't have that standing, so just because she was an impressive winner of the Cox Plate, it doesn't suddenly elevate her into the discussion with a mare like Winx.

While it's unreasonable to compare her to Winx, Saturday's 108 rating win is totally dominant over anything we can foresee an Australian trained middle distance WFA horses producing at the moment and that's why she was so impressive.

In the last four seasons, there has only been four Australian-trained horses outside of Winx produce a rating of 108 or better;

Hartnell: 111 in his 2016 Turnbull Stakes win

Humidor: 109.4 when 2nd to Winx in the 2017 Cox Plate (the lowest rating of her four wins)

Arcadia Queen: 108.5 winning the 2018 Kingston Town Stakes

Jameka: 108 when she won the 2017 2400m G1 WFA BMW in Sydney by 6.5 lengths (over Humidor)

Our middle distance WFA races over the past couple of seasons have typically been won in the 103 to 105 rating range, which is short of what I call genuine Group 1 standard, so commentary about our current crop of WFA horses being below par are very much accurate.

It's important to keep this in mind when interpreting the visual impressiveness of Lys Gracieux's win. She beat horses that aren't of genuine Group 1 WFA standard.

On the positive side for Australian and New Zealand racing, both Castelvecchio and Te Akau Shark are new kids on the block, so with the benefit of their new found peaks this Spring, they will hopefully return in the Autumn and add some much needed credibility to our WFA ranks.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Oct 2019 at 12:23pm
What do you suppose you did not do there Jamal ?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jamal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Oct 2019 at 12:19pm

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Lys Gracieux
Lys Gracieux wins the Cox Plate (Image: Racing Photos)

O'Sullivan: Lys no match for Winx
Racing ArticleDaniel O'Sullivan@TRBHorseRacing1:27pmO
,(
As impressive as the win of Lys Gracieux’s was, it wasn't in the same territory as Winx with the champion mare rating between one and 3.7 lengths superior across her four-year reign.

Lys Gracieux's Cox Plate win on Saturday returned a 108 WFA Performance Rating.

By comparison, here are Winx's four Cox Plate ratings:

2015: 113

2016: 115.5

2017: 110

2081: 111

It's easy to get carried away in the euphoria of a stunning victory like Lys Gracieux produced, but that's where a consistent and objective rating process can help to provide some context.

When I assess the speed performance of Saturday's Cox Plate in conjunction with the past form and ratings of key runners, there's no objective reason to rate Lys Gracieux any higher than 108.

The time and sectionals were strong, but they certainly weren't what I would call world class.

The style of the win has some extra merit and it's likely that if Lys Gracieux found a position up near the lead in the early stages (like she did last start in Japan) then I'm sure she wins the Cox Plate by further and rates even higher, perhaps challenging that 110 mark or a touch better, but we can only assess what happened on the day.

That's not to knock the win in any way, it was outstanding and a serious Group 1 quality performance, but it's important to keep some perspective.

The ratings based assessors like myself have had Winx well and truly established as one of the top horses in the world for a number of years. Few would argue with that.

Prior to Saturday Lys Gracieux didn't have that standing, so just because she was an impressive winner of the Cox Plate, it doesn't suddenly elevate her into the discussion with a mare like Winx.

While it's unreasonable to compare her to Winx, Saturday's 108 rating win is totally dominant over anything we can foresee an Australian trained middle distance WFA horses producing at the moment and that's why she was so impressive.

In the last four seasons, there has only been four Australian-trained horses outside of Winx produce a rating of 108 or better;

Hartnell: 111 in his 2016 Turnbull Stakes win

Humidor: 109.4 when 2nd to Winx in the 2017 Cox Plate (the lowest rating of her four wins)

Arcadia Queen: 108.5 winning the 2018 Kingston Town Stakes

Jameka: 108 when she won the 2017 2400m G1 WFA BMW in Sydney by 6.5 lengths (over Humidor)

Our middle distance WFA races over the past couple of seasons have typically been won in the 103 to 105 rating range, which is short of what I call genuine Group 1 standard, so commentary about our current crop of WFA horses being below par are very much accurate.

It's important to keep this in mind when interpreting the visual impressiveness of Lys Gracieux's win. She beat horses that aren't of genuine Group 1 WFA standard.

On the positive side for Australian and New Zealand racing, both Castelvecchio and Te Akau Shark are new kids on the block, so with the benefit of their new found peaks this Spring, they will hopefully return in the Autumn and add some much needed credibility to our WFA ranks.



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Australian racing is only good up to 1400m in terms of world standards when it comes to depth/quality in numbers
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Oct 2019 at 9:25am
Never mind I outlayed the outlandish sign up fee. LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Oct 2019 at 9:13am
Can somebody copy and paste that article please ?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Oct 2019 at 9:05am
Originally posted by djebel djebel wrote:

Originally posted by JudgeHolden JudgeHolden wrote:

Weak and a decade too late, but refreshing to hear someone in the racing media call this out:

“Quite simply, the Cox Plate highlighted, as earlier results this spring have, how threadbare Australia's weight-for-age ranks are, certainly amongst horses who compete at 1600-metres and above.

And it's important for us to get a reality check from time to time, especially as those who follow the sport have to wade through a blizzard of hyperbole from big bloodstock groups and breeding operations about how wonderful their latest stallion or product is.”

https://www.theage.com.au/sport/racing/lys-gracieux-hammers-home-a-truth-few-want-to-hear-20191026-p534j3.html

Our WFA horses are perfectly fine. 

There is massive depth in our WFA ranks.

Where we lack depth is in the group 1 department at anything above 1600m.




And it seems I have reach my free quota limit for the month. LOL


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Oct 2019 at 9:04am
Originally posted by JudgeHolden JudgeHolden wrote:

Weak and a decade too late, but refreshing to hear someone in the racing media call this out:

“Quite simply, the Cox Plate highlighted, as earlier results this spring have, how threadbare Australia's weight-for-age ranks are, certainly amongst horses who compete at 1600-metres and above.

And it's important for us to get a reality check from time to time, especially as those who follow the sport have to wade through a blizzard of hyperbole from big bloodstock groups and breeding operations about how wonderful their latest stallion or product is.”

https://www.theage.com.au/sport/racing/lys-gracieux-hammers-home-a-truth-few-want-to-hear-20191026-p534j3.html

Our WFA horses are perfectly fine. 

There is massive depth in our WFA ranks.

Where we lack depth is in the group 1 department at anything above 1600m.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Xavier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Oct 2019 at 5:01am
so true.
Karl and Susan Kennedy are my heroes
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TIGER Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Oct 2019 at 4:39am
Unless they are WA horses
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Afros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Oct 2019 at 4:32am
Originally posted by Jamal Jamal wrote:

Originally posted by JudgeHolden JudgeHolden wrote:

Jamal is absolutely correct, but he hasn’t gone nearly hard enough.


Finally. Someone who isn't blinded. Unlike most biased Aussie racing supporters. It's been a weak era depth wise at 2000m to 3200m in Aussie racing for about 5 years (maybe more). I'll continue to call it as I see it and if people on here don't like it then that's their problem.

I'm here to express an opinion...like everyone else is. It seems when I express an opinion about Aussie racing depth wise at 2000m t ok 3200m...people get offended. I suggest people take their blinkers off.

As Jidgeholden has said - I haven't even gone hard enough...maybe I should but of course that will offend most on here ..


We don't 'get offended' Jamal, most people are just tired of you popping up and banging on ad nauseam about how bad our horses are here at 2000+, we are all aware of it, how could anyone not be? If it bothers you that much why not do something more about it than banging on about it every day on here?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jamal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Oct 2019 at 11:53pm
From David Gately on twitter: Did this with Golden Rose (and copped abuse) NOTE: not drawing conclusions, merely stating facts as. I think it’s interesting!

WINX- 2018 Cox Plate (good-3) Runs 2-03.47 (home 47.2/ 35.46/ 11.92 off 1-27.85 1st:1440m

LYS GRACIEUX- (good-4) 2-04.21 (46.6/ 35.2/ 11.72 off 1-28.38
Australian racing is only good up to 1400m in terms of world standards when it comes to depth/quality in numbers
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Donald Hiltonson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Oct 2019 at 6:54pm
Originally posted by Jamal Jamal wrote:

Originally posted by JudgeHolden JudgeHolden wrote:

Jamal is absolutely correct, but he hasn’t gone nearly hard enough.


Finally. Someone who isn't blinded. Unlike most biased Aussie racing supporters. It's been a weak era depth wise at 2000m to 3200m in Aussie racing for about 5 years (maybe more). I'll continue to call it as I see it and if people on here don't like it then that's their problem.

I'm here to express an opinion...like everyone else is. It seems when I express an opinion about Aussie racing depth wise at 2000m t ok 3200m...people get offended. I suggest people take their blinkers off.

As Jidgeholden has said - I haven't even gone hard enough...maybe I should but of course that will offend most on here ..


Mate dunno if you’ll offend anyone but you’ll surely bore everyone to tears
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tlazolteotl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Oct 2019 at 6:48pm
While reading that article I was thinking,what are this gooses credentials because he appears to be ignorant of the wfa scale.

Chief soccer writer It figures.
An honest politician is one who when he is bought will stay bought.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jamal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Oct 2019 at 6:30pm
Originally posted by kavg kavg wrote:

The article is correct but his obsession with weight of castelvecchio is ridiculous and unnecessary.
As an industry what needs to be exposed is the way the horse has become disposable. As highlighted in the racehorse slaughter issue, part of the issue is the big and small studs making up crap and getting large books. Then colluding with each other to increase yearling prices.
All to increase their own wealth whilst chasing the huge Sydney prize money over the sprints /miles. Then the big guys buy all the middle distance /staying trips trying to win the cups.

There needs to be an expose into the breeding corruption and collusion and for breeders to start supporting stallions with stamina and classic ability like dundeel, syt, savabeel etc.



Bloody oath 100 per cent....well said
Australian racing is only good up to 1400m in terms of world standards when it comes to depth/quality in numbers
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Xavier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Oct 2019 at 6:28pm
Maybe it’s the fact you say the same thing over and over again
Karl and Susan Kennedy are my heroes
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jamal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Oct 2019 at 6:27pm
Originally posted by JudgeHolden JudgeHolden wrote:

Jamal is absolutely correct, but he hasn’t gone nearly hard enough.


Finally. Someone who isn't blinded. Unlike most biased Aussie racing supporters. It's been a weak era depth wise at 2000m to 3200m in Aussie racing for about 5 years (maybe more). I'll continue to call it as I see it and if people on here don't like it then that's their problem.

I'm here to express an opinion...like everyone else is. It seems when I express an opinion about Aussie racing depth wise at 2000m t ok 3200m...people get offended. I suggest people take their blinkers off.

As Jidgeholden has said - I haven't even gone hard enough...maybe I should but of course that will offend most on here ..
Australian racing is only good up to 1400m in terms of world standards when it comes to depth/quality in numbers
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kavg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Oct 2019 at 6:23pm
The article is correct but his obsession with weight of castelvecchio is ridiculous and unnecessary.
As an industry what needs to be exposed is the way the horse has become disposable. As highlighted in the racehorse slaughter issue, part of the issue is the big and small studs making up crap and getting large books. Then colluding with each other to increase yearling prices.
All to increase their own wealth whilst chasing the huge Sydney prize money over the sprints /miles. Then the big guys buy all the middle distance /staying trips trying to win the cups.

There needs to be an expose into the breeding corruption and collusion and for breeders to start supporting stallions with stamina and classic ability like dundeel, syt, savabeel etc.
Prejudice is an emotional attachment to ignorance.
DiEM25 for the world.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote JudgeHolden Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Oct 2019 at 5:48pm
I just read you post again. “Relatively ok”

OMG. Priceless!!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JudgeHolden Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Oct 2019 at 5:29pm
Dunno. A few more? I’ll let you know when I’m done. That ok with you?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Second Chance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Oct 2019 at 5:25pm
If I read this reality repeated yet again, possibly for the 1,387th time, I'm going to cut my bloody wrists.

How many f*cking posts does it take to make a fairly obvious point.  Dead

ps Judge and Jamal are responsible for about 1,362 of this endless repetitition.

pss Austalasia still did relatively ok to post 2nd, 3rd and 5th.  Whoops sorry, repeated myself for the first time just then.  Embarrassed
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JudgeHolden Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Oct 2019 at 5:16pm
Jamal is absolutely correct, but he hasn’t gone nearly hard enough.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JudgeHolden Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Oct 2019 at 5:13pm
Weak and a decade too late, but refreshing to hear someone in the racing media call this out:

“Quite simply, the Cox Plate highlighted, as earlier results this spring have, how threadbare Australia's weight-for-age ranks are, certainly amongst horses who compete at 1600-metres and above.

And it's important for us to get a reality check from time to time, especially as those who follow the sport have to wade through a blizzard of hyperbole from big bloodstock groups and breeding operations about how wonderful their latest stallion or product is.”

https://www.theage.com.au/sport/racing/lys-gracieux-hammers-home-a-truth-few-want-to-hear-20191026-p534j3.html
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Xavier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Oct 2019 at 5:08pm
Give us a break Jamal.
Are you ever happy?
All you do is whinge and complain.

Karl and Susan Kennedy are my heroes
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JudgeHolden Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Oct 2019 at 5:02pm
I’m agreeing with you, mate.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TIGER Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Oct 2019 at 5:00pm
To bring her here for a Cox Plate would be crazy, runs in two races here maybe and makes 2.5 million or run at home in 4 to 5 races and makes three times that without the stress of international travel and quarantine
EAD
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