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New stallions 2019 |
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Majestic
Champion Joined: 23 Mar 2013 Location: NSW Status: Offline Points: 1303 |
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Posted: 26 May 2019 at 9:09pm |
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Are we seeing anything with supposed ability being bought by some of the new studs on the block? Years ago only tested and tried stallions were an item of competition by decently successful studs. Today, any listed or Gp3 winning colt is exsulted as the next big thing. How many of Widden, Darley, Coolmore first season stallions with little or no real performance have been retired and send off to oblivion after 3 seasons? Reactions anyone?
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Speediskey
Champion Joined: 18 Feb 2014 Status: Offline Points: 4116 |
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Aquis announced Performer today... so yeah they're scrapping the bottom of the barrel at this point.
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Majestic
Champion Joined: 23 Mar 2013 Location: NSW Status: Offline Points: 1303 |
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That’s what lead to the post 😳
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Majestic
Champion Joined: 23 Mar 2013 Location: NSW Status: Offline Points: 1303 |
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I recognize the IAI’s, but how many have the same credentials and have failed to deliver?
I can name Dreamscape, some of the shutters like Refuse to Bend, dare I say Galileo, Teifilo, etc . I know some come and go, but today we seem to have more go than come in relation to success on our shores |
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gonski gonski
Champion Joined: 08 Dec 2010 Status: Offline Points: 694 |
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Many are overrated and overpriced.
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acacia alba
Champion Joined: 30 Oct 2010 Location: Hunter Valley Status: Offline Points: 41547 |
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Too many ^^^^^
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animals before people.
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troppo75
Champion Joined: 10 Jun 2008 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 1438 |
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Vote with your wallet, they will get the message
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Now having passed 1000 posts I feel you are all so much the wiser for my having said... stuff!
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djebel
Premium Joined: 07 Mar 2007 Status: Offline Points: 53960 |
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Like I Am Invincible and Written Tycoon ? |
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reductio ad absurdum
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djebel
Premium Joined: 07 Mar 2007 Status: Offline Points: 53960 |
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Performer at stud for less than 10 grand is better than Performer gelded and going to Hong Kong.
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reductio ad absurdum
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djebel
Premium Joined: 07 Mar 2007 Status: Offline Points: 53960 |
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We no longer have enough stallions retiring to stud or being imported/shuttled. We need far more and far more mares as well. 824 stallions in 2010 535 stallions in 2018 Pretty sure in 1988 there was over 1000 stallions serving close to 20,000 mares. Now we have Asian countries pillaging our so many of our horses. 2018 there was 13120 live foals. These are spread out over a vast distance and 6 Major racing jurisdiction plus Singapore, Hong Kong and Macau and other Asian nations. The numbers are getting uglyingly small. |
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reductio ad absurdum
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lulu
Champion Joined: 20 Feb 2011 Status: Offline Points: 1298 |
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I don't mind the look of Grunt at all. Not sure if I will use him but he does interest me.
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You're either Einstein or Frankenstein in this game.
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djebel
Premium Joined: 07 Mar 2007 Status: Offline Points: 53960 |
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reductio ad absurdum
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Second Chance
Champion Joined: 02 Dec 2007 Status: Offline Points: 45819 |
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We already breed too many bad horses, and we also stand too many poorly bred, conformed or performed stallions.
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djebel
Premium Joined: 07 Mar 2007 Status: Offline Points: 53960 |
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Was that the case in the 70s and 80s ? When you think about all the racing jurisdictions just in Australia alone and the races and racedays is 13000 really enough ? |
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reductio ad absurdum
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Carioca
Champion Joined: 13 Nov 2015 Status: Offline Points: 21836 |
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The breeding industry was still very healthy in NZ and our top trainers were buying well as the stoutness was still there and race results during those two decades will prove it, plenty of shippers were leaving our shores as well.
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Majestic
Champion Joined: 23 Mar 2013 Location: NSW Status: Offline Points: 1303 |
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Years ago, our major breeders were blinded by the UK/European suffix. So many stallions who raced here in the 60’s 70’s and 80’s with Sprinting, miler, middle distance and staying performances were totally discriminated against. The Ken Cox’s, the Baramul team, the Ferd Calvin’s and the Kruger’s in Qld all leant toward imported stallions. At that time the stallion performers included Craftsman, Sir Dane, Shorengro, Dhaulagiri, Contemplor, Tolerance, Shako, I could go on, but the same sentiment doomed them all to oblivion as stallions. Only when Century came to the fore with two crops racing did Aust stud farms start to look at “Colonials”. Within 5-10 years Aust bred stallions started to occupy the majority of top 20 stallions. This situation continues to today as I have stated above. BUT I think we are hoodwinked by some of the shuttler providers . In reality, some of these stallions shuttling are s**t and have no real benefit to our breeding industry, except to provide paid advertising space to promote them on our websites and stallion books.
I am sorry, but a very good number of breeders from past had the defining strategy of f**k the local colonial stallions, we now have access to the “best” of GB and Euro breeding in the stallions we have imported, yes at great cost and thus supposedly better than what we have here. I will revisit old stallion registers from the late 60’s to today and I will name the stallions, the studs and the fees charges for the s**t that were presented over the years. Carioca, I think we have a not too divergent opinion on today’s breeding industry and the way it is presented, advertised and ultimately let down by. |
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djebel
Premium Joined: 07 Mar 2007 Status: Offline Points: 53960 |
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Hold on Majestic give some thought to what you have just said.
If the majority of our best runners are geldings than of course you have to import to replenish the bloodstock. You whinge that too many non performing horses are retiring to stud and also seem to be whinging about imports. |
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reductio ad absurdum
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Majestic
Champion Joined: 23 Mar 2013 Location: NSW Status: Offline Points: 1303 |
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djebel,
I do agree that some of our better performers over the years have been geldings. I would ask you to acknowledge that those same geldings raced over numerous seasons for our pleasure.the likes of Lor$, Winfreux, Galilee, Ziema, Bold King, Time and Tide, Prince Grant, Prince Darius, etc, etc, have provided much pleasure. We did have to import, BUT some of our better performed horses of that era were stallions and, when retired to stud, were ignored. I will acknowledge that some of the better performed stallions of yeRs ago did help our breeding and they were imports, like Showdown, Star Kingdom, Dignitas, Port Vista, but, when I get back to my farm and library, I will list a number of stallions, although greatly advertised for their supposed ability to improve our industry, have failed dismally. We could also mention that these stallions, who were failures of n Aust, have their daughters used to “improve” our genetic base. Till I revisit farm and library |
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djebel
Premium Joined: 07 Mar 2007 Status: Offline Points: 53960 |
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There will always be failures.
Nearly every top class horse in England, France, Japan and America even, gets a chance at stud but very few make it. You need as many as possible going to stud to find that needle in the haystack. The vast majority of our horses are gelded and wasted. If everyone of our group 1 and 2 races where won by entires and they were eventually retired to stud, preferably after being thoroughly tested on the track than our breed would improve just as the Japanese have done. But our trainers want family pets to train. |
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reductio ad absurdum
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Ticino
Champion Joined: 20 Oct 2008 Location: Germany Status: Offline Points: 4448 |
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Hello,
when I checked the damline of Performer, I saw a familiar name. He is from the same damline as "Toylsome", who stood a few years in Germany. The common ancester is "Baronova". Sadly he wasn't a great stud, sio he was sent to Russia. His only "blachtype" offspring was kapour. You guess it, he was sent to AUS! Unfortunaly he is a gelding. Ironically Kapour is by a "sprinter", he raced in AUS over Long distances. regards, Ticino
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Second Chance
Champion Joined: 02 Dec 2007 Status: Offline Points: 45819 |
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Re the brief exchange between Majestic and djebel.
34% of stallions in Australia that are listed in Stallions 2019are bred in the Northern Hemisphere. Not one of the top 20 sires on the General Sires list 2018/19, and who are still standing here, were bred in the Northern Hemisphere. 5 (25%) of the top 20 sires on the General Sires list 2018/19 but who no longer stand here were bred in the Northern Hemisphere. Four of these were sires of middle distance/stayers, and another a miler sire. Make of it what you will, however one thing is for sure and certain: you visit sprinting-bred imports/shuttlers at your extreme peril. Just imo. |
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Second Chance
Champion Joined: 02 Dec 2007 Status: Offline Points: 45819 |
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Make that "34% of stallions in Australia that are listed in Stallions 2019 at a fee of $11,000 or more are bred in the Northern Hemisphere".
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furious
Champion Joined: 19 Feb 2007 Status: Offline Points: 25179 |
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We are long overdue for a breed changer. Star Kingdom 1946, Sir Tristram 1971, Danehill 1986 ??
Now I know I am Invincible has broken the record for numbers of stakes winners for a season. But the numbers are stallions are serving these days are totally different to the 20 to 30 a season which a stallion like Star Kingdom served. Danehill saw the beginning of the big crops before that stallions were lucky to get over 50 a year. Star KingdomMarscay was champion sire before Danehill. Biggest crop was 72 but seven crops under 50 foals. Bletchingly never had a foal crop over 46 and plenty below 40. Then we see Danehill starting off at 52, 47 and 59. Then it explodes to 81, 90, 102, 119, 119, 124, 124 etc. Foaled the same year we had Zabeel in New Zealand and his foals crops started with 63, 78, 79, 92, 88. 51, 92, 120, 119 etc so maybe not as many as Danehill but definately above what his sire saw. Now as Djebel pointed out there were plenty of stallions. Many not worth there salt but they served mares. Looking back on fertility listings for the twelve months ending 31st July 1962 a total of 199 stallions covered 10 or more mares. Only two crops came in at over 40 foals. Pipe of Peace (second in the Epsom Derby and from the family of Mill Reef) had 46 foals. Second was a stallion called Maddalo (IRE) (winner of 5 races) got 45 foals. He did get one G1 winner at stud but why he deserved that total only the breeders can tell you. Arctic Explorer also did quite well with 38 foals. But Star Kingdom had 25 foals. Wilkes 26. Better Boy 16. Delville Wood 18 etc etc. These stallions we still recognise didn't have great representation did they. So what about the champion Australian gallopers on the list - Caranna had 4 foals (from 14 mares), Comic Court had 11, Cragsman 7, Dalray 18, Karendi 14, Matrice 14, Todman 30, Tulloch 14 etc. So many of those 1000 stallions back in the day didn't do much damage as they didn't serve enough mares to matter. Now is a different matter. If you get a stallion with the great pedigree and race record the mares flock to him. But we all know the percentage of stallions who make it is very small. So if you have 100+ foals and don't make it you are cutting back the chances of greater numbers than if you have that 30 foals. It's only as we go on that time will tell. I'd like to see all first, second and third year stallions restricted to 100 or less mares. Surely that can get your return for your money when we see service fees well over $50,000 for the big boys. That gives the mare owners a chance of a return in the ring and hopefully gives the stallions a chance to make a name without burning them out of wasting too many mares chances at stud. I'd prefer to go to So You Think instead of a first season sire who is twice his stud fee. But the market also goes bonkers over the latest thing. All afternoon the adds where Harry Angel the best sprinter in the world. Well I like the female line - its performed here before with the likes of Street Cry. But likewise his sireline is that of Waajib who didn't go that well here! But the adds will get them in. As will out favourites going to stud and many of ours won't make it either. So what can be done? Perhaps the price of our young colts has to go down to keep them racing. Perhaps as I said restrictions of numbers going to the younger colts retired or restrictions in first few seasons to keep racing for all these million dollar races is worth while. But I'm just sitting here trying to work out where the next breed changer will come from. He'll probably have an inbreeding to a superior female as Star Kingdom, Danehill and Sir Tristram all had that. But maybe he'll just be swamped with the numbers of mares being served by others if he isn't in the supreme list. None of the three big ones came here with supreme race records to match their pedigree. So maybe he gets to serve 60 or 80 mares. Those mares like the ones served to Better than Ready or Spirit of Boom or even I am Invincible will be improved out of sight. But if he comes from overseas - will he even still be standing at stud here? They seem to come and go very fast at the moment.
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Carioca
Champion Joined: 13 Nov 2015 Status: Offline Points: 21836 |
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Great post furious, some nice memories of youngsters I looked after by stallions mentioned earlier in your post.
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slowdown
Champion Joined: 24 Jun 2009 Location: Tasmania Status: Online Points: 8648 |
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plenty of thinking going on there Furious. Just love it when you share your knowledge.
went to Grenville today to look at their new stallion - Stratosphere. Good looking colt and not your average Snitzel. He looks like he will be a good size when he finishes growing. Hoping he adds to the recent success of Tassie stallions and wish the McCulloch family success with him. |
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Rebel - racing. Lionel - in work. Glory - spelling. Ray - spelling. A Wee Nip - in work.
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Majestic
Champion Joined: 23 Mar 2013 Location: NSW Status: Offline Points: 1303 |
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Furious, brilliant synopsis. My own thoughts indeed. Your suggestion to limit books on new stallions could work, if the industry complies completely. 1st season sires, especially the 3yo colt restricted to say 80 mares, if a 1sr season stallion races till the end of his 4yo season or later, let him have 100 mares. BUT until proven how about a limit of 100 or so mares till he proves if he warrants that 4th and 5th season at stud.
Also, now djebel don’t smile. All Gp1 racing to be contested only by entires and fillies/mares. Let the evergreen geldings race for lesser races, with exception of our Gp1 Cups races in each state and the mile Epsom, Doncaster and the 1600m race during Melb spring carnival. Possibly throw in all-in Stradbroke, Doomben 10,000 and cup. The grading of our Gp1 racing is another topic FWIW |
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Carioca
Champion Joined: 13 Nov 2015 Status: Offline Points: 21836 |
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No No No Majestic don't tumble into djebel with his relentless banging on about entires and group racing , owners should not be penalised for buying yearling colts only to be told "cut or you won't have a racehorse", exclusion of geldings in group races will definately weaken opposition for some hyped up ( the next Big thing) colt or entire to be splashed all over the TVs if they win, and don't forget the regumate issue for the girls.
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furious
Champion Joined: 19 Feb 2007 Status: Offline Points: 25179 |
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Sometimes there is no other way - Trekking was dangerous as a colt.
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Carioca
Champion Joined: 13 Nov 2015 Status: Offline Points: 21836 |
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My post was a little tongue in cheek furious, nothing detrimental to member mentioned btw.
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furious
Champion Joined: 19 Feb 2007 Status: Offline Points: 25179 |
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Sorry I don't get tongue in cheek always! Very literal when I'm snowed under and busy and mind kind of only sees one way as you have to shoulder on - even when you don't have a cold.
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