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Melbourne Cup - exempt races to renew locals?

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djebel View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Nov 2018 at 12:13pm
Originally posted by Lordy Lordy wrote:

Originally posted by Shrunk in the Wash Shrunk in the Wash wrote:

I also agree with the st Leger idea

Also isn’t the weight given to these Imports part of the reason they get in before locals?

How in gods name did Sound Check or Emotionless get handed a start by giving it 55kg and even though he ran a great race what allowed Rostropovich to get in?

Why do out of form donkeys like Nakeeta & Red Cardinal get a crack?

The whole system seems wrong and slanted to encourage the imports. If they run 3rd in one of their 4 horse group races they qualify

After Vintage Crop won we had Bart Cummings whinging to everybody that the European horses were getting in light. Since then the handicapper has rated Euro form much higher. It now sees Listed class winners sit much higher in ballot order.

Give them less weight and there won't be as many in the field. Flip side it also makes it easier for them to win if they are in. Catch 22.

In other words the VRC committee has to override its way too powerful handicapper and change the conditions of the race.

Make the handicapper earn his wage.

The minimum top weight in a handicap in Victoria is 60 kgs. That should be the case for ALL handicaps no matter the grade.

The handicapper should be weighting the horses from a minimum top weight of 60 down to what ever the bottom weight deserves which could be 35 kgs or less. Obviously when acceptances are taken the top weight will be 60 kgs and the bottom weight will be 50. 

All the weights would have risen until the top weight has 60 kgs, 

It really is not hard.

You could even have a case where if the field holds up the bottom weight has 58 kgs.

kiss, Who would win then when we know nobody can carry that weight ?

 
reductio ad absurdum
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote StormSiren Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Nov 2018 at 12:18pm
Originally posted by pnclick pnclick wrote:

Are there number restrictions for Internationals in races like the Japan Cup etc?

Why doesn't RVL place a restricted limit on International runners? Obviously, you'd need a timeframe for what constitutes an "International runner". Objective of which is to attract the elite internationals, and may make more of the lesser ones aim at the Dalgety and other Ballot exempt races to push for a spot.

Personally, don't think it would diminish the value of the race, you'd still get the A grade internationals, as it would probably be slightly easier to win, and you'd have local runners in the race, which would encourage local breeding or racing of stayers.

Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe placing restrictions on entrants would create issues around its group one status from the blue book/International Cataloguing Standards Committee perspective
Lost in the magical world of racing. Storm Siren, Sirens Star, Elpis & Wait For It.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JudgeHolden Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Nov 2018 at 12:43pm
Putting a arbitrary limit on the numbers of overseas horses for the sole reason that they’re too good for us would bring the race into disrepute, IMO. And the race would take a huge credibility hit.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Brudder_A Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Nov 2018 at 7:37pm
When the VRC started twiddling with the idea that the G1 Melbourne Cup should be one on the primary race events in the world they opened themselves and the race to be inundated with all sorts of entrants who were primed to be running in far more quality distance races. Having a readily available quarantine center helped.

Times have changes with the improvements in travel and places where international horses can stop over.
Prior to the 1993 Melbourne Cup traveling was difficult if not impossible. UAE was non-existant. Hong Kong was a restricted place since most foreign horse could not go over there except for their international meet.

For all its worth the Melbourne Cup is really huge postmark in the *International* racing calendar.

Thimk - Global ekonomee and the result is Globally recognized.

OZ trainers and owners should be pushing for increased $ in distance events which were good foundation events.

Return the distances of the Perth Cup, Brisbane Cup and Hobart Cup back to 2 miles.
VRC St Leger and ATC St. Leger back to at least G3.

And stopping playing with races like The Duke of Norf




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Brudder_A Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Nov 2018 at 7:38pm
And stopping playing with races like The Duke of Norfolk Stakes - 2 miles in the autumn and let it be.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Prince of Penzance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Nov 2018 at 8:17pm
So now Flemington only have 1 x 3200m race per year.
Seems weird, they should have more races over the extended trip - especially over the off season. Plenty of horses looking for the trip with little to no options. One of my bosses horses had to make two trips to Adelaide for staying races because there were none with his rating in Victoria for five weeks!!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jamal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Nov 2018 at 9:51am
So the Melbourne Cup excempt races are:

*In order of Timing in Calender Year*


1. May - Listed Andrew Ramsden Stakes (2800m wfa)

2. October- Group 3 The Bart Cummings (2500m hcp)

3. October - Group 1 Caulfield Cup (2400m hcp)

4. October - Group 1 Cox Plate (2040m wfa)

5. November - Group 3 Lexus Stakes (2500m hcp)
Australian racing is only good up to 1400m in terms of world standards when it comes to depth/quality in numbers
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shawy38 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Nov 2018 at 8:23am
Yet to be announced but it’s likely going to be announced soon.

The Bagot Handicap will be moved from NYD and held on Makybe Diva Stakes day in Sept. same distance and conditions but will be a ballot exempt race.
$$$ increase
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jamal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Nov 2018 at 11:21am
[QUOTE=Shawy38] Yet to be announced but it’s likely going to be announced soon.

The Bagot Handicap will be moved from NYD and held on Makybe Diva Stakes day in Sept. same distance and conditions but will be a ballot exempt race.
$$$ increase [/QUOTE


Source? So you're saying the Bagot Handicap will be a Melbourne Cup excempt race?
Australian racing is only good up to 1400m in terms of world standards when it comes to depth/quality in numbers
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shawy38 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Nov 2018 at 11:23am
Yes that’s correct.
Was in today’s Melbourne paper
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carioca Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Nov 2018 at 11:45am
Originally posted by Shawy38 Shawy38 wrote:

Yes that’s correct.
Was in today’s Melbourne paper

Was the Standish Hcp run in conjunction with the Bagot? wonder what they'll do with that one.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tontonan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Nov 2018 at 12:08pm
The Standish and the Bagot were named after two of the great colonial VRC administrators Robert Bagot and Captain Frederick Standish.  

The races named after them have been conducted on New Years Day for many years.  New Years Day has been a problem date for the VRC throughout its history.  They tried to make it Derby day in the early days but that didn't work out.  Then they made it Grand National day and that didn't work out either.  Then from 1874 they made it Champion Stakes day which was at the time the WFA championship of the colonies but after a decade they moved that race to the Autumn.  Since then they have run the Standish and the Bagot instead.

Bagot was the VRC secretary for many years and basically is the man most responsible for Flemington becoming a grand racecourse.   He is also the bloke who surveyed the Melbourne Cricket Ground.  

Standish is often credited with naming the Melbourne Cup and the invention of the Newmarket Handicap.  He was also the assistant police commissioner of the Ballarat goldfields and cheif commissioner at the time of the hunt for Kelly gang.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sneck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Nov 2018 at 12:43pm
I think it would be a good idea to offer a $1,000,000 bonus to the first Australian/NZ bred horse past the post and make it easier to get more of them in the field.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carioca Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Nov 2018 at 12:45pm
Bookies ran a double on those 2 races just like cups doubles , Epsom metrop, Doncaster Syd. Cup, etc, Villiers and Summer Cup, they are memories now but it's posts like Tontonan's that gives a bit of originality to how they come about and the history in the names. well done Tontonan.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Spearmint Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Nov 2018 at 9:14pm
Why trash the tradition of the Bagot/ Standish day on NYD at Flemington?

Just throw away this history for what?

Just have a new race on Makybe Diva stakes day and call it something else that is new and inspiring to be an exempt race for the Melbourne Cup
"Nothing in the world is so powerful as an idea whose time has come"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tontonan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Nov 2018 at 9:26pm
Cheers Carioca

The feature double is one of the lost treasures of Australian racing.  It was based on the feature races having having early nomination dates and large initial declarations which gave the feature doubles a ready made build up.  

They worked best with handicaps because these were the most open and competitive races.  This added a level of intrigue regarding who had beaten the handicapper.

These days even the Cups have been reduced to a small nomination no more than a month or two in advance of the race, a compressed handicap and a raft of international raiders.  The Cup double is not a shadow of its former self as a betting medium. 




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lord Hybrow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Nov 2018 at 7:29am
Originally posted by Spearmint Spearmint wrote:

Why trash the tradition of the Bagot/ Standish day on NYD at Flemington?

Just throw away this history for what?

Just have a new race on Makybe Diva stakes day and call it something else that is new and inspiring to be an exempt race for the Melbourne Cup

Couldn’t agree more Spearmint. There’s already so much shuffling around of the racing calendar over the past few years, it’s ridiculous!

Tontonan will correct me if I’m wrong but I’m pretty sure that Craiglee Stakes day has never had a staying race on the card, at least not in the 30 years I’ve been following racing. The longest race on the card was traditionally a 2000m Open Hcp, which pre-sponsorship days was known as the Lord Mayors Plate. A non-black type race at a middle distance that was used as a stepping stone for Cups horses.

So the VRC could have easily left the Bagot Hcp on New Years Day and just resurrected the traditional Lord Mayors Plate name for this day. Or if they wanted to give it a Melb Cup themed name, how about these suggestions:

(a) Archer Plate
(b) Think Big Hcp
(c) Rain Lover Stakes
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shrunk in the Wash Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Nov 2018 at 8:22am
(D) The Big Philou

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shawy38 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Nov 2018 at 9:49am
Archer should have a raced named after him.

It hasn’t been made offical re the Bagot yet, but it’s basically a done deal.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote djebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Nov 2018 at 10:00am
Which trainers would have which horses ready for the Bagot on Makybe Diva day and have the ability to still have them going well by the Melbourne Cup ?

reductio ad absurdum
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tontonan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Nov 2018 at 10:35am
Lord H,  

Initially I agreed with you but I had to check.  

Prior to 1983 there was a 2500m race on Craiglee Stakes day called the Lord Mayor's Plate.  The distance was reduced to 2000m in 1983 and race was won by... wait for it... Black Knight.   

This is ironic as when the race was run at 2500m it was decidedly ordinary and seemed to feature stayers that had run through the Winter rather than legitimate Cup prospects.  

It would be interesting to run through the results of the 2000m race since 1983.   I can recall being at Flemington the day Master O'Reilly won it.  I wouldn't be surprised if it didn't throw up a fewuseful Cup contenders over the years without ever having had any sort of black type. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carioca Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Nov 2018 at 11:08am
I had more than a passing interest in the Lord Mayors Plate of /70 watching a reasonably good handicapper by the name of Moomba Fox trained by Bart go head and head with my little champ Rajah Sahib all the way down that long bloody straight , guts , intestinal fortitude and a will to win won out, got quietly pissed with my wife that night.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tontonan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Nov 2018 at 11:43am
Well done Carioca, you probably picked out the best edition of the Lord Mayor's Plate of those times. 

It was Mallyon and Higgins.  

Moomba Fox had beaten Rajah Sahib (6th) the week before in the Heatherline at Caulfield and copped a 10lb penalty.  Third in the Heatherline was Beer Street who went on to win the Caulfield Cup.

Rajah was back from Brisbane where he had campaigned honestly but without success.  Moomba Fox was a well performed Kiwi that had joined the Cummings yard and fresh of a win in the Lord Mayor's Mile in Adelaide.   Rajah gave him a stone at Caulfield but there was only 6lb between them at Flemington. 

The winning margin was a head with 8 lengths back to the third horse. Rajah was 8/1.  Moomba Fox was 11/8 favorite.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Red Hare Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Nov 2018 at 2:54pm
Originally posted by Spearmint Spearmint wrote:

Why trash the tradition of the Bagot/ Standish day on NYD at Flemington?

Just throw away this history for what?

Just have a new race on Makybe Diva stakes day and call it something else that is new and inspiring to be an exempt race for the Melbourne Cup
Perhaps they needed an existing race that met other conditions?

FIIK what the thought process is with this mob. Just when I think they’re going to do the right thing & can the Group classifications, they decide they want to make arse equal elbow...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote early4lunch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Nov 2018 at 3:02pm
There is no point in having exemption if the horse is hopeless
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VOYAGER Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Nov 2018 at 3:05pm
Originally posted by Sneck Sneck wrote:

I think it would be a good idea to offer a $1,000,000 bonus to the first Australian/NZ bred horse past the post and make it easier to get more of them in the field.


Not sure Sneck if that rectifies the situation of getting more Australian gallopers in the race.

Maybe if you had the new race (Bagot if that is what they call it), Bart Cummings, Lexus, Herbert Power, Geelong Cup, Queen Elizabeth all in a stayers series of races and then you gained points for first, second, third, fourth and fifth in each race, then the galloper with the most points, wins the $1 million bonus.

The bonu,s may not add Australian stayers to the cup, but at least the bonus would give owners and connections of the stayers compensation for not making the cup field, similar to what happens now with the Queen Elizabeth if you are a acceptor for the cup but do not make the field and win the Queen Elizabeth.

Remember, it might take intelligence to be smart , but it takes experience to be wise
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sneck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Nov 2018 at 3:40pm
If you want a result you just need to create the conditions to meet the desired outcome.
I thought of the first Australian past the post based on the new Singapore International day where the pay the fist local a bonus.
You're correct that this doesn't necessarily rectify the situation of getting more Australian gallopers in the race but I still like the idea, although I also like your points system.
The most aggressive approach would simply to declare half the field must be bred in Australia/NZ but we can hopefully be little more delicate than that.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carioca Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Nov 2018 at 4:56pm
Point system is a good idea imo, I would go 6 races for accrued points to maybe 100, 3 WFA races, Aust.Cup, BMW, and Doom.Cup, 3 handicaps , Metrop in Syd. Adelaide or Syd Cup, and major handicap in Vic that's not on walk in list, eligiblty oz and nz only, placegetters accrue points as well as points if placed in exempt races , say if one has a certain number of points and is placed in the Hotham and gets maximum points irrespective of the winner , he's in, if the RV work around that they May get an idea.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carioca Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Nov 2018 at 10:01pm
Having read this again it certainly needs rewording lol, what I should have said the accrued points for oz and nz only but the actual races naturally open to all comers, I hope that makes a little more sense.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jamal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Nov 2018 at 11:09pm
I remember when the winnerof the Hotham Handicap AND the runner-up got automaic entry into the Melbourne Cup....PLUS the winner of the Hotham Handicap got no penalty for the Melbourne Cup as the Hotham was a penalty-free race. For example - in 2000 Brew won the the Hotham (then called Saab Quality) and dropped a massive 7.5kg (carried 56.5kg in the Saab Quality) to 49kg in the Cup and won it.

However that all changed in 2007 when the VRC made changes meaning - only the winner of the Hotham got automatic entry into the Melbourne Cup (rumner-up missed out) and the Hotham winner could be eligible for a penalty for the Cup if deemed necessary by the handicapper.
Australian racing is only good up to 1400m in terms of world standards when it comes to depth/quality in numbers
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