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Melbourne Cup - exempt races to renew locals? |
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djebel
Premium Joined: 07 Mar 2007 Status: Offline Points: 53960 |
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In other words the VRC committee has to override its way too powerful handicapper and change the conditions of the race. Make the handicapper earn his wage. The minimum top weight in a handicap in Victoria is 60 kgs. That should be the case for ALL handicaps no matter the grade. The handicapper should be weighting the horses from a minimum top weight of 60 down to what ever the bottom weight deserves which could be 35 kgs or less. Obviously when acceptances are taken the top weight will be 60 kgs and the bottom weight will be 50. All the weights would have risen until the top weight has 60 kgs, It really is not hard. You could even have a case where if the field holds up the bottom weight has 58 kgs. kiss, Who would win then when we know nobody can carry that weight ? |
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reductio ad absurdum
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StormSiren
Champion Joined: 23 Jul 2015 Location: Canberra Status: Offline Points: 1794 |
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Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe placing restrictions on entrants would create issues around its group one status from the blue book/International Cataloguing Standards
Committee perspective
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Lost in the magical world of racing. Storm Siren, Sirens Star, Elpis & Wait For It.
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JudgeHolden
Champion Joined: 16 Apr 2011 Status: Offline Points: 11716 |
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Putting a arbitrary limit on the numbers of overseas horses for the sole reason that they’re too good for us would bring the race into disrepute, IMO. And the race would take a huge credibility hit.
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Brudder_A
Champion Joined: 01 Apr 2013 Location: Uzhhorod Status: Offline Points: 4220 |
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When the VRC started twiddling with the idea that the G1 Melbourne Cup should be one on the primary race events in the world they opened themselves and the race to be inundated with all sorts of entrants who were primed to be running in far more quality distance races. Having a readily available quarantine center helped. Times have changes with the improvements in travel and places where international horses can stop over. Prior to the 1993 Melbourne Cup traveling was difficult if not impossible. UAE was non-existant. Hong Kong was a restricted place since most foreign horse could not go over there except for their international meet. For all its worth the Melbourne Cup is really huge postmark in the *International* racing calendar. Thimk - Global ekonomee and the result is Globally recognized. OZ trainers and owners should be pushing for increased $ in distance events which were good foundation events. Return the distances of the Perth Cup, Brisbane Cup and Hobart Cup back to 2 miles. VRC St Leger and ATC St. Leger back to at least G3. And stopping playing with races like The Duke of Norf |
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Brudder_A
Champion Joined: 01 Apr 2013 Location: Uzhhorod Status: Offline Points: 4220 |
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And stopping playing with races like The Duke of Norfolk Stakes - 2 miles in the autumn and let it be.
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Prince of Penzance
Champion Joined: 17 Jan 2018 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 1938 |
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So now Flemington only have 1 x 3200m race per year.
Seems weird, they should have more races over the extended trip - especially over the off season. Plenty of horses looking for the trip with little to no options. One of my bosses horses had to make two trips to Adelaide for staying races because there were none with his rating in Victoria for five weeks!!! |
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Jamal
Champion Joined: 25 Jul 2011 Status: Offline Points: 8659 |
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So the Melbourne Cup excempt races are:
*In order of Timing in Calender Year* 1. May - Listed Andrew Ramsden Stakes (2800m wfa) 2. October- Group 3 The Bart Cummings (2500m hcp) 3. October - Group 1 Caulfield Cup (2400m hcp) 4. October - Group 1 Cox Plate (2040m wfa) 5. November - Group 3 Lexus Stakes (2500m hcp) |
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Australian racing is only good up to 1400m in terms of world standards when it comes to depth/quality in numbers
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Shawy38
Champion Joined: 13 Jun 2015 Status: Offline Points: 17265 |
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Yet to be announced but it’s likely going to be announced soon.
The Bagot Handicap will be moved from NYD and held on Makybe Diva Stakes day in Sept. same distance and conditions but will be a ballot exempt race. $$$ increase |
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Jamal
Champion Joined: 25 Jul 2011 Status: Offline Points: 8659 |
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[QUOTE=Shawy38] Yet to be announced but it’s likely going to be announced soon.
The Bagot Handicap will be moved from NYD and held on Makybe Diva Stakes day in Sept. same distance and conditions but will be a ballot exempt race. $$$ increase [/QUOTE Source? So you're saying the Bagot Handicap will be a Melbourne Cup excempt race? |
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Australian racing is only good up to 1400m in terms of world standards when it comes to depth/quality in numbers
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Shawy38
Champion Joined: 13 Jun 2015 Status: Offline Points: 17265 |
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Yes that’s correct.
Was in today’s Melbourne paper |
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Carioca
Champion Joined: 13 Nov 2015 Status: Offline Points: 21698 |
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Was the Standish Hcp run in conjunction with the Bagot? wonder what they'll do with that one. |
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Tontonan
Champion Joined: 13 Oct 2007 Status: Offline Points: 3898 |
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The Standish and the Bagot were named after two of the great colonial VRC administrators Robert Bagot and Captain Frederick Standish.
The races named after them have been conducted on New Years Day for many years. New Years Day has been a problem date for the VRC throughout its history. They tried to make it Derby day in the early days but that didn't work out. Then they made it Grand National day and that didn't work out either. Then from 1874 they made it Champion Stakes day which was at the time the WFA championship of the colonies but after a decade they moved that race to the Autumn. Since then they have run the Standish and the Bagot instead. Bagot was the VRC secretary for many years and basically is the man most responsible for Flemington becoming a grand racecourse. He is also the bloke who surveyed the Melbourne Cricket Ground. Standish is often credited with naming the Melbourne Cup and the invention of the Newmarket Handicap. He was also the assistant police commissioner of the Ballarat goldfields and cheif commissioner at the time of the hunt for Kelly gang. |
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Sneck
Champion Joined: 16 Feb 2013 Location: Payout Queue Status: Offline Points: 7555 |
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I think it would be a good idea to offer a $1,000,000 bonus to the first Australian/NZ bred horse past the post and make it easier to get more of them in the field.
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Carioca
Champion Joined: 13 Nov 2015 Status: Offline Points: 21698 |
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Bookies ran a double on those 2 races just like cups doubles , Epsom metrop, Doncaster Syd. Cup, etc, Villiers and Summer Cup, they are memories now but it's posts like Tontonan's that gives a bit of originality to how they come about and the history in the names. well done Tontonan.
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Spearmint
Champion Joined: 21 Feb 2007 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 1468 |
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Why trash the tradition of the Bagot/ Standish day on NYD at Flemington?
Just throw away this history for what? Just have a new race on Makybe Diva stakes day and call it something else that is new and inspiring to be an exempt race for the Melbourne Cup |
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"Nothing in the world is so powerful as an idea whose time has come"
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Tontonan
Champion Joined: 13 Oct 2007 Status: Offline Points: 3898 |
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Cheers Carioca
The feature double is one of the lost treasures of Australian racing. It was based on the feature races having having early nomination dates and large initial declarations which gave the feature doubles a ready made build up. They worked best with handicaps because these were the most open and competitive races. This added a level of intrigue regarding who had beaten the handicapper. These days even the Cups have been reduced to a small nomination no more than a month or two in advance of the race, a compressed handicap and a raft of international raiders. The Cup double is not a shadow of its former self as a betting medium. |
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Lord Hybrow
Champion Joined: 05 Jul 2015 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 6643 |
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Couldn’t agree more Spearmint. There’s already so much shuffling around of the racing calendar over the past few years, it’s ridiculous! Tontonan will correct me if I’m wrong but I’m pretty sure that Craiglee Stakes day has never had a staying race on the card, at least not in the 30 years I’ve been following racing. The longest race on the card was traditionally a 2000m Open Hcp, which pre-sponsorship days was known as the Lord Mayors Plate. A non-black type race at a middle distance that was used as a stepping stone for Cups horses. So the VRC could have easily left the Bagot Hcp on New Years Day and just resurrected the traditional Lord Mayors Plate name for this day. Or if they wanted to give it a Melb Cup themed name, how about these suggestions: (a) Archer Plate (b) Think Big Hcp (c) Rain Lover Stakes |
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Shrunk in the Wash
Champion Joined: 25 Mar 2016 Status: Offline Points: 9890 |
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(D) The Big Philou
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Shawy38
Champion Joined: 13 Jun 2015 Status: Offline Points: 17265 |
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Archer should have a raced named after him.
It hasn’t been made offical re the Bagot yet, but it’s basically a done deal. |
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djebel
Premium Joined: 07 Mar 2007 Status: Offline Points: 53960 |
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Which trainers would have which horses ready for the Bagot on Makybe Diva day and have the ability to still have them going well by the Melbourne Cup ?
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reductio ad absurdum
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Tontonan
Champion Joined: 13 Oct 2007 Status: Offline Points: 3898 |
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Lord H,
Initially I agreed with you but I had to check. Prior to 1983 there was a 2500m race on Craiglee Stakes day called the Lord Mayor's Plate. The distance was reduced to 2000m in 1983 and race was won by... wait for it... Black Knight. This is ironic as when the race was run at 2500m it was decidedly ordinary and seemed to feature stayers that had run through the Winter rather than legitimate Cup prospects. It would be interesting to run through the results of the 2000m race since 1983. I can recall being at Flemington the day Master O'Reilly won it. I wouldn't be surprised if it didn't throw up a fewuseful Cup contenders over the years without ever having had any sort of black type. |
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Carioca
Champion Joined: 13 Nov 2015 Status: Offline Points: 21698 |
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I had more than a passing interest in the Lord Mayors Plate of /70 watching a reasonably good handicapper by the name of Moomba Fox trained by Bart go head and head with my little champ Rajah Sahib all the way down that long bloody straight , guts , intestinal fortitude and a will to win won out, got quietly pissed with my wife that night.
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Tontonan
Champion Joined: 13 Oct 2007 Status: Offline Points: 3898 |
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Well done Carioca, you probably picked out the best edition of the Lord Mayor's Plate of those times.
It was Mallyon and Higgins. Moomba Fox had beaten Rajah Sahib (6th) the week before in the Heatherline at Caulfield and copped a 10lb penalty. Third in the Heatherline was Beer Street who went on to win the Caulfield Cup.
Rajah was back from Brisbane where he had campaigned honestly but without success. Moomba Fox was a well performed Kiwi that had joined the Cummings yard and fresh of a win in the Lord Mayor's Mile in Adelaide. Rajah gave him a stone at Caulfield but there was only 6lb between them at Flemington. The winning margin was a head with 8 lengths back to the third horse. Rajah was 8/1. Moomba Fox was 11/8 favorite. |
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Red Hare
Champion Joined: 12 Jan 2015 Location: Victoria Status: Offline Points: 4233 |
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FIIK what the thought process is with this mob. Just when I think they’re going to do the right thing & can the Group classifications, they decide they want to make arse equal elbow... |
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early4lunch
Champion Joined: 09 Jun 2007 Status: Offline Points: 3854 |
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There is no point in having exemption if the horse is hopeless
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VOYAGER
Champion Joined: 04 Aug 2007 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 18699 |
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Not sure Sneck if that rectifies the situation of getting more Australian gallopers in the race. Maybe if you had the new race (Bagot if that is what they call it), Bart Cummings, Lexus, Herbert Power, Geelong Cup, Queen Elizabeth all in a stayers series of races and then you gained points for first, second, third, fourth and fifth in each race, then the galloper with the most points, wins the $1 million bonus. The bonu,s may not add Australian stayers to the cup, but at least the bonus would give owners and connections of the stayers compensation for not making the cup field, similar to what happens now with the Queen Elizabeth if you are a acceptor for the cup but do not make the field and win the Queen Elizabeth. |
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Remember, it might take intelligence to be smart , but it takes experience to be wise
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Sneck
Champion Joined: 16 Feb 2013 Location: Payout Queue Status: Offline Points: 7555 |
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If you want a result you just need to create the conditions to meet the desired outcome.
I thought of the first Australian past the post based on the new Singapore International day where the pay the fist local a bonus. You're correct that this doesn't necessarily rectify the situation of getting more Australian gallopers in the race but I still like the idea, although I also like your points system. The most aggressive approach would simply to declare half the field must be bred in Australia/NZ but we can hopefully be little more delicate than that.
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Carioca
Champion Joined: 13 Nov 2015 Status: Offline Points: 21698 |
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Point system is a good idea imo, I would go 6 races for accrued points to maybe 100, 3 WFA races, Aust.Cup, BMW, and Doom.Cup, 3 handicaps , Metrop in Syd. Adelaide or Syd Cup, and major handicap in Vic that's not on walk in list, eligiblty oz and nz only, placegetters accrue points as well as points if placed in exempt races , say if one has a certain number of points and is placed in the Hotham and gets maximum points irrespective of the winner , he's in, if the RV work around that they May get an idea.
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Carioca
Champion Joined: 13 Nov 2015 Status: Offline Points: 21698 |
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Having read this again it certainly needs rewording lol, what I should have said the accrued points for oz and nz only but the actual races naturally open to all comers, I hope that makes a little more sense.
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Jamal
Champion Joined: 25 Jul 2011 Status: Offline Points: 8659 |
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I remember when the winnerof the Hotham Handicap AND the runner-up got automaic entry into the Melbourne Cup....PLUS the winner of the Hotham Handicap got no penalty for the Melbourne Cup as the Hotham was a penalty-free race. For example - in 2000 Brew won the the Hotham (then called Saab Quality) and dropped a massive 7.5kg (carried 56.5kg in the Saab Quality) to 49kg in the Cup and won it.
However that all changed in 2007 when the VRC made changes meaning - only the winner of the Hotham got automatic entry into the Melbourne Cup (rumner-up missed out) and the Hotham winner could be eligible for a penalty for the Cup if deemed necessary by the handicapper. |
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Australian racing is only good up to 1400m in terms of world standards when it comes to depth/quality in numbers
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